zrs70
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Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:36 pm

A woman who was running for regional political office came into our congregation last week. She gave me a pamphlet which outlined her platform. I was appalled at what she stood for, though I understand that not everyone agrees with my political views.

However, not only was she anti gay marriage. She listed all the ways in which being gay is a mental illness. It really bothered me.

Anyway, she went on in her pamphlet about how we need to get back to Biblical marriage. I asked her to define that for me, and she said, "One man, one woman." I pointed out that very few families in the Bible were about a man being married to one woman. She did not like my confrontation with her. I asked, "How many wives did Jacob have?" She couldn't answer.

So I'll ask here... If we are to be intellectually honest, what is biblical marriage?
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iflykpdx
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:29 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw

All your answers are right there 
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:20 pm

That was hystrical! I do find it funny that people pick and choose what they want to believe is in the Bible, as long as it in their favor.
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flyerboy1990
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:03 pm

I am currently going to a Christian-based university and do consider myself Christian, but do not share the typical views about the gay lifestyle.

We just had a speaker who spoke in chapel 2 days this week on what it means to be gay and to identify oneself. He made a great point in saying that he doesn't believe it is completely nurtured, but there may be some biological aspect to it as well. I too believe this.

Now to answer the question, biblical marriage is supposed to be between a man and a woman. It is supposed to be a courtship, with simple dating and not too much intimacy (and of course sex). Sex is supposed to wait until after marriage.
With gay marriage, I don't really care if they want to come together and be married. It's not like they are trying to get married in a church or something. They are being married in the presence of government and the church doesn't have to recognize it.

Your reference to Jacob isn't completely accurate. The Bible doesn't actually speak on polygamy and I'm honestly not sure why God allowed these important people to have "multiple wives." But I do know that if a man married a woman, and then took another woman, it was technically adultery. But with Abraham, he allowed him to have Sarah and her maid, Hagar. I guess I will have to ask my Bible professor tonight!
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zrs70
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:17 pm

Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 3):
It's not like they are trying to get married in a church or something.

Actually, Rabbis and Ministers have been officiated at same-gender marriages for decades, in the houses of worship and elsewhere. Gay marriage, in ways ways, follows a traditional paradigm. I've officiated at many gay marriages in our congregation.

How ironic that it is taking the government so long to catch up!

Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 3):
I guess I will have to ask my Bible professor tonight!

While you are at it, ask about David's wives and Solomon's wives!

Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 3):
It is supposed to be a courtship, with simple dating and not too much intimacy

Where does any of this exist in the Bible?
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iairallie
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:19 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
A woman who was running for regional political office came into our congregation last week

I beg your pardon she did what???? She came to your CHURCH to CAMPAIGN. Your church should lose it's tax exempt status this is completely unethical.
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flyerboy1990
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:22 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 4):
Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 3):
It's not like they are trying to get married in a church or something.

Actually, Rabbis and Ministers have been officiated at same-gender marriages for decades, in the houses of worship and elsewhere. Gay marriage, in ways ways, follows a traditional paradigm. I've officiated at many gay marriages in our congregation.

How ironic that it is taking the government so long to catch up!

So your church agrees with gay marriage? How well does that go over with the Christian community where you live?

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 4):
Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 3):
I guess I will have to ask my Bible professor tonight!

While you are at it, ask about David's wives and Solomon's wives!

Again, I'm not so sure about their "wife" status and why God would allow these influential people to do that.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 4):
Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 3):
It is supposed to be a courtship, with simple dating and not too much intimacy

Where does any of this exist in the Bible?

It doesn't, but it's implied. I don't necessarily believe that's how it should be.

I admit, I'm struggling in following what I am "supposed to believe" at this school. I have an issue that is totally against Christian values, but I feel that I have a relationship with God and that I'm saved. But I am wrestling Him with this one thing!
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:39 pm

Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 6):
It doesn't, but it's implied.

I'm not trying to bug you, but where is it implied?
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zrs70
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:51 pm

Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 6):
But I am wrestling Him with this one thing!

I, like you, wrestle with God often. I think that's what we are supposed to be doing. All the Biblical ancestors wrestled with God, and many even changed God's mind in the process!

Just for clarification, I am Jewish, not Christian, so we are in a synagogue, not church! Gay marriage is fully accepted by the Reform, Conservative, and Reconstructionist movements (though individuals within the movements may have opinions that are independent).

Our congregation (Reform), and most Reform congregations march in favor of gay marriage.

While much of the country lumps Religion with the Right (conservative), there is a huge Religious Left as well!
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zrs70
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:59 pm

Quoting iairallie (Reply 5):
I beg your pardon she did what???? She came to your CHURCH to CAMPAIGN. Your church should lose it's tax exempt status this is completely unethical.

Please don't be so quick to assume anything! Our congregation will not and does not endorse a candidate. But we can acknowledge if a candidate is visiting, so long as they do not solicit while on synagogue grounds.
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:09 pm

Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 3):

Your reference to Jacob isn't completely accurate. The Bible doesn't actually speak on polygamy and I'm honestly not sure why God allowed these important people to have "multiple wives."

Because God had nothing to do with it? That's what was societally accepted at that time.

Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 6):
I have an issue that is totally against Christian values, but I feel that I have a relationship with God and that I'm saved. But I am wrestling Him with this one thing!

Wait... but who told you that God is against the "gay lifestyle"? What is the "gay lifestyle"?
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flyerboy1990
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:16 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
Wait... but who told you that God is against the "gay lifestyle"? What is the "gay lifestyle"?

My university and most churches. In the OT, it says do not lie with a man as you would a woman. And Sodom and Gomorrah were both destroyed by God because of their lifestyle of having sex with the same gender.
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zrs70
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:22 pm

Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 11):
My university and most churches. In the OT, it says do not lie with a man as you would a woman. And Sodom and Gomorrah were both destroyed by God because of their lifestyle of having sex with the same gender.

Keep in mind that neither the word "gay" nor the work "homosexual" appear at all in the Bible. So it really isn't accurate to say that the Bible is against the gay lifestyle.

True, the Bible does talk about men not lying with men. The Bible also tells us to stone to death those who work on Shabbat. The Bible also tells us to sacrifice animals.

Now, with regard to Sodom and Gomorrah.... Please tell me where it gives this as the reason for why they were destroyed? Sure, there was lawlessness..... But I thought that it was about rape among men, not sex among men.
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:29 pm

Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 11):

My university and most churches.

I see. And who in those institutions had a hotline to God available? Or you just believing what you were told?
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:02 pm

Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 3):
Now to answer the question, biblical marriage is supposed to be between a man and a woman. It is supposed to be a courtship, with simple dating and not too much intimacy (and of course sex). Sex is supposed to wait until after marriage.

You've lost me. If biblical marriage is a courtship sans sex, is there another form of marriage beyond biblical marriage, after which sex is permissible?

Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 11):
In the OT, it says do not lie with a man as you would a woman.

Do we really need to run through all the other things the Old Testament says not to do that are perfectly acceptable to Christians these days?

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iairallie
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:13 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 9):

Please don't be so quick to assume anything! Our congregation will not and does not endorse a candidate. But we can acknowledge if a candidate is visiting, so long as they do not solicit while on synagogue grounds.

She gave you a political pamphlet while visiting your church that is a campaigning activity and is illegal.
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
I see. And who in those institutions had a hotline to God available? Or you just believing what you were told?

You can add what other passages do you pick and choose to believe in, as well (whether you thinking it or you being told to think it).
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:22 am

Churches really need to get their priorities straight in my opinion. Stop condemning gays, invite them into the congregation! You may believe what you want, but "judge not lest ye be judged." I used to be anti-gay, then I wasn't, but I thought about how a gay man could be Christian, then I realized that that really isn't my business either! I cannot judge what he thinks. If he's fine with it in his head and has a good relationship with God, I do not even need to judge whether his mindset is even flawed or not.

I wish more Christians would go through what I have. They've lost touch with the teachings of Jesus. Accept all in worship, not stigmatize them. Sorry for my rant there.

Here is a question I have. The Bible was written by humans, so you can see where errors would come in, but did JESUS ever say anything about gay marriage?
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:54 am

I won't get involved too much here, but I just want to say that referring to us gays as people living a "gay lifestyle" is just plain silly. There is no "gay lifestyle" as such. I mean, I know people who know very few gay people personally will have misconceptions about us, thinking we are all flamboyant or promiscuous or whatever, but for the most part that isn't true.

I'm gay, and my 'lifestyle' is pretty much the same as most people, except I like the same sex. Calling it a lifestyle also implies the one's sexuality is a choice, which I can assure you it is not. Heck, think about it, could you just decide tomorrow you like guys? No? Exactly... Sexuality is not a choice or disorder or lifestyle. It is a single characteristic of an individual, all of whom are different and lead different lives. Referring to my sexuality as a "lifestyle choice" is just plain insulting TBH, and hints at the assumptions people draw on gay people.

As for "Bible Based Marriage", that is utter rubbish. The Bible caters for slavery, polygamy, a very subordinate position for women and arranged marriages. People just use the Bible as a tool for their political views sometimes, and marriage is one such area where they do so.

Anyway, that's my lil' rant over for the night. Carry on.  
 
flyerboy1990
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:50 am

Okay, you all make very good points and you have called me out on some things. Despite being pro-gay marriage, I just believe that it really isn't God's intention for men to be with men and women to be with women, at least in the eyes of the church.
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Mir
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:14 am

Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 19):
I just believe that it really isn't God's intention for men to be with men and women to be with women, at least in the eyes of the church.

Out of curiosity, what do the eyes of the church have to do with it? I thought the purpose of the church was to teach the intentions of God, not to determine them as well.

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flyerboy1990
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:47 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 19):
I just believe that it really isn't God's intention for men to be with men and women to be with women, at least in the eyes of the church.

Out of curiosity, what do the eyes of the church have to do with it? I thought the purpose of the church was to teach the intentions of God, not to determine them as well.

-Mir

That is what I mean. I believe that He does not approve of the marriage and my church and school teaches this. And in teaching what we think God thinks, we are in a sense determining what he thinks. I don't think there is a difference. But government and society will recognize gay marriage when it's passed. That's all.
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:25 am

Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 19):
Despite being pro-gay marriage, I just believe that it really isn't God's intention for men to be with men and women to be with women, at least in the eyes of the church.

I thought God was supposed to be all-powerful. If he didn't intend it, then why did he make me this way?
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:06 am

Biblical marriage is really just what marriage was at the time the bible was written (and for most of the world still is, Christian or not). One woman and one man, because that's how you can make children, and no sex before (for the woman anyway) because men want to be sure that their children are their children.

That's all in theory of course, in practice it's more loose and always was, so the idea of "coming back to" some ideal past is quite funny.
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:38 am

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
So I'll ask here... If we are to be intellectually honest, what is Biblical marriage?

A man and a woman joined by God. Matthew 19 has a good message about what God does - and what we call marriage.
 
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:56 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 24):
A man and a woman joined by God. Matthew 19 has a good message about what God does - and what we call marriage.

What of the other passages of marriage? Why just choose the one?
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Mudboy
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:28 pm

Biblical Marriage is when your Girlfriend talks you into giving up all your money, pimped out ride, freedom, hanging out with the guys, women and fun, to live a wonderful life with her. You get to have sex when she wants to, and if you mow the lawn, wash the dishes, take out the trash and paint the house, you MIGHT, get 5 minutes of extra kinky stuff, but only if it is not on a night when Grey's Anatomy, Dancing with the Stars, American Idol, or Sex and the City reruns are on?
You don't need to relax on the couch watching Baseball or Football anymore, because there will always be something to do around the house, when she doesn't insist on you going to the grocery store, Wal-Mart or the Mall so you can watch her try on 20 different things, that she say's makes her look fat, but you constantly lie and tell her how young and sexy it makes her look!! All this wonderful life you are now in, is "til death do you part" BTW, this is unless you have a very good Lawyer, then you can look forward to going back to doing all those wonderful things you did before, you even get to have sex with other women again, except this time, it will be on your best friend's couch, since you no longer have any money, to have your own place.

Please feel free to add in anything I may have missed?
 
zrs70
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:19 am

Quoting iairallie (Reply 15):
She gave you a political pamphlet while visiting your church that is a campaigning activity and is illegal.

She gave me (the rabbi) a pamphlet and I gave it back to her and told her she could not give them out. Nothing illegal there.
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iairallie
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:32 am

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 27):
She gave me (the rabbi) a pamphlet and I gave it back to her and told her she could not give them out. Nothing illegal there

Whether or not you gave it back does nothting to negate the illegality of her act.
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:04 am

Quoting iairallie (Reply 28):
Whether or not you gave it back does nothing to negate the illegality of her act.


Excuse my ignorance, as I am not completely familiar with US taxation and electoral law, but why would handing out a pamphlet be illegal? Doesn't the 1st Amendment apply? And in accepting a pamphlet one is not necessarily endorsing its contents.
I thought that tax-exemption status would only be affected if an organisation changed from being primarily a religious or social welfare body to one primarily concerned with canvassing, campaigning or fund-raising for a political purpose. I assume that we are talking about 501(c) status or is there some other provision that specifically prohibits handing out information in a synagogue, church or mosque?
 
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:20 am

Quoting iflykpdx (Reply 1):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw

All your answers are right there

And hysterically funny too. Just shows what you can do with a bit of diligence and a few thousand year old bit of state propaganda.
 
iairallie
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:35 am

Quoting Quokka (Reply 29):
Excuse my ignorance, as I am not completely familiar with US taxation and electoral law, but why would handing out a pamphlet be illegal? Doesn't the 1st Amendment apply? And in accepting a pamphlet one is not necessarily endorsing its contents.
I thought that tax-exemption status would only be affected if an organisation changed from being primarily a religious or social welfare body to one primarily concerned with canvassing, campaigning or fund-raising for a political purpose. I assume that we are talking about 501(c) status or is there some other provision that specifically prohibits handing out information in a synagogue, church or mosque?

IRC § 501(c)(3) organizations may not do such things as make statements that endorse or oppose a candidate, publish or distribute campaign literature, or make any type of contribution, monetary or otherwise, to a political campaign.

The rabi here distributed campaign literature.
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zrs70
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:46 am

Quoting iairallie (Reply 31):
The rabi here distributed campaign literature.

Excuse me, the rabbi received campaign literature from the candidate and gave it back.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:08 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23):
Biblical marriage is really just what marriage was at the time the bible was written (and for most of the world still is, Christian or not). One woman and one man, because that's how you can make children, and no sex before (for the woman anyway) because men want to be sure that their children are their children.

The question is do you mean the Old Testament (essentially the Tora) or the New Testament? There are about 1500 years inbetween (concerning the content of the Tora, from when it was written down to the time when the first "modern" Christian bilbe was assembled in 400 AD).
From what I understand, in the times when the Tora was written down, polygamy was quite common in this region (and the stories about Saul and David tell that they had multiple wives). In 4 AD. possibly under Greco-Roman influence, monogamy was the rules in the countries, which became Christian.

The question is important, since the OP is Jewish.

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iairallie
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:30 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 32):
Excuse me, the rabbi received campaign literature from the candidate and gave it back.

Not until he shared it with you first. Damage was done.
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:12 pm

Quoting iairallie (Reply 28):
Quoting zrs70 (Reply 27):
She gave me (the rabbi) a pamphlet and I gave it back to her and told her she could not give them out. Nothing illegal there

Whether or not you gave it back does nothting to negate the illegality of her act.

It is not illegal. In fact a candidate may show up and talk to parishioners and hand out materials. A politician could hand as many pamphlets as they like to a church however the church itself and its leadership can not distribute or make them otherwise available to the parishioners as this would be interpreted as support of the candidate. The key thing is that the religious organization cannot support any one person for elected office and cannot discriminate, if they allow one on their premises, they must allow others.

The church can however make clear which ideals it supports which quite often indicate what its preferred political position is.

Quoting iairallie (Reply 34):
Quoting zrs70 (Reply 32):
Excuse me, the rabbi received campaign literature from the candidate and gave it back.

Not until he shared it with you first. Damage was done.

I think you are missing the point.... He IS the rabbi......

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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:41 pm

Here's what Paul had to say about it:

1 Corinthians 7 (King James version):

1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Basically, Paul is saying that men/women should actually devote about 100 percent of their time to worshipping God, but since men and women are fornicators and immoral by nature, if you cannot control your urges you should get married, because when you're married it's "OK" in God's eyes to have sex, even if the act itself of sex is *almost* like worshipping another God and therefore *almost* heresy (but not quite).

Funny, no one who talks about the "sanctity" of marriage ever mentions Paul's words from 1 Corinthians. I guess the whole "sanctity" thing goes out the window if the basis of biblical (new testament) marriage is to merely have a God-approved release for your unGodly perversions.
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:30 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 12):
Keep in mind that neither the word "gay" nor the work "homosexual" appear at all in the Bible. So it really isn't accurate to say that the Bible is against the gay lifestyle.

The word gay doesn´t appear because we practically gave it the meaning it has. My grandparents used the word gay, to refer to being happy, end of story. There are songs I remember from primary school, that had the word gay in it, sure they came a time when we (the students) skipped that part when singing the song.

But make no mistake, the bible is very clear about it stance against homosexuality. In many places, i referred to men lying with men as they would with a woman as a sin, as very displeasing to God. But for all of you who believe in the bible as inspired truth from God, in almost every section where it talks about homosexuality being a sin, it also mentioned fornication, adultery and other sins (in the same level, neither is better nor worse than the other). They are all equally sins. So let´s see who is getting into heaven or wherever it is you are trying to go.

I am sorry, but I can´t understand those who try to defend the bible and are living an "alternative" lifestyle. The bible didn't´t give any clauses, but all fornicators and adulterers etc are in the same proverbial "hot water."  
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zrs70
Topic Author
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RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:00 am

Quoting captaink (Reply 37):
but I can´t understand those who try to defend the bible and are living an "alternative" lifestyle.

Good point. But that said, all the heroes of the Bible argued with God. And most of the time, God's attitude changed. I think we should do the same thing. And that is why I can defend the Bible and be gay. I don't defend that it is a perfect document. I defend that it teaches us to stand up when we believe something is wrong.
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captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Can Someone Please Define Biblical Marriage?

Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:39 am

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 38):
Good point. But that said, all the heroes of the Bible argued with God. And most of the time, God's attitude changed. I think we should do the same thing. And that is why I can defend the Bible and be gay. I don't defend that it is a perfect document. I defend that it teaches us to stand up when we believe something is wrong.

Interesting perspective.. I like it.. 
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