windy95
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'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:00 pm

http://radio.woai.com/cc-common/news...e.html?feed=119078&article=7811998

Quote:
Less than an hour after the period began for filing bills for consideration in the 2011 Legislative session, State Rep. Debbie Riddle (R-Tomball), a leader of the newly muscular conservatives in the Legislature, filed an 'Arizona style' measure that would crack down on illegal immigration.
Quote:
Riddle's measure would also deny all state funds to any community which declares itself a 'sanctuary city' and refuses to aggressively enforce immigration laws.

Nice to see another state backing up Arizona. The sanctuary city portion of the bill is a good addition. The cities and towns need to follow the laws on the books or face repercussion's.

Florida should also be coming up with their own bill soon. Attorney General elect Pam Bondi ran on continueing the lawsuit against Obamacare and Installing a Arizona style Immigration law.
 
UNCRDU
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:05 pm

Good. All the power to them.
 
NIKV69
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:18 pm

God Bless Texas. This is needed. The Sanctuary city portion is key. Governors of states with sanctuary cities should take notice.
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DocLightning
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:08 pm

As long as they don't violate the 16th Amendment, I support them.
-Doc Lightning-

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Airstud
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:07 am

Since I used to live in San Francisco, a city that set aside hundreds of thousands of dollars in PUBLIC MONEY to provide legal defense for illegal immigrants who had committed felonies on our soil, I am relieved and elated to see measures like Representative Riddle's moving forward.

The complaints that come from the left about legislation like this are so exasperatingly ignorant. There are still myriad people who believe that Arizona's SB1070 would empower cops to harass "anyone they suspect" to be here illegally, ignoring the simple concrete fact that it only calls for an immigration status check after someone's been arrested for something else.

And there's this pearl, from "Democrats like State Rep. Mike Villarreal (D-San Antonio)," who "say they'll fight Riddle's proposal."

"He tells 1200 WOAI news that every study which has been conducted on illegal immigration in Texas has found that stopping it would strangle the state's economy."

Does he believe this bill's aim is to "stop illegal immigration?" And genuinely not understand that it targets criminals?? Condolences to Texas then, that Representative Villareal is in office.
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WarRI1
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:20 am

Quoting Airstud (Reply 4):
"He tells 1200 WOAI news that every study which has been conducted on illegal immigration in Texas has found that stopping it would strangle the state's economy."

What a crock of bull dinky, I wonder how we existed for all these years without being buried by illegals. I mean, how did we man the resturants, provide the housekeepers, nannies, yard work, handyman, day work, construction, non-union of course, and all those important jobs they do. They have provided jobs in law enforcement, border patrol, drug enforcement, charity, health, and teachers and interpreters. I somehow think we can survive. Go Texas.
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Tugger
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:25 am

Quoting Airstud (Reply 4):
"He tells 1200 WOAI news that every study which has been conducted on illegal immigration in Texas has found that stopping it would strangle the state's economy."

To all those that say that stopping illegal immigration or putting better controls on immigration to reduce illegal immigration would "strangle" the economy (state or national) I say "Fine".

OK lets see if it does "strangle" the economy, if it does we can certainly change and revise any laws to minimize any harm to the economy. We can adjust it all. Any problems that may be caused provide new and good information to inform the discussion instead of just hot air or "what could/will happen" being spewed.

The key thing is it needs to be better controlled. Illegal immigration needs to be reduced and penalties for it enforced.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
ltbewr
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:42 am

Most police forces, including in Arizona, believe such laws as SB1070 and proposed in Texas will make it worse for citizens, legal resident and legal visitors to deal with criminal situations as victims or witnesses. That is wrong.

As to sanctuary, would they go after Catholic and Christian churches, many of which in the USA assist illegals as they cannot go to the police or government agencies? They could threaten their non-profit status for harboring illegal, but I doubt they would do that or they would lose many votes of the Bible thumpers.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:51 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 7):
As to sanctuary, would they go after Catholic and Christian churches, many of which in the USA assist illegals as they cannot go to the police or government agencies? They could threaten their non-profit status for harboring illegal, but I doubt they would do that or they would lose many votes of the Bible thumpers.

I support the churchs being sanctioned somehow for their support of illegals. I think the actual number of activists in the churchs is small. I know one of them personally, you cannot reason with them, bleeding hearts, shall we say.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
texan
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:18 am

Earlier this year, Perry said he would not support any such measure that came across his desk. One of the few times I agreed with him. We'll see if it sees debate or if it gets canned by Gov'nor Good Hair.

Texan
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Zentraedi
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:36 am

As far as I'm concerned, these are nothing but racist measures since white people are not really asked for true proof of citizenship.

If they pass this, people should be incarcerated unless they can produce a US passport, none of this state driver's license BS. That has nothing to do with citizenship.
 
UNCRDU
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:37 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 10):
As far as I'm concerned, these are nothing but racist measures since white people are not really asked for true proof of citizenship.

Sure we are. We're asked for proof of citizenship (license, registration, and insurance) every time we are pulled over for a traffic violation, for instance. Brown people don't get to break our laws just because they are brown. Our laws apply to everyone.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 10):

If they pass this, people should be incarcerated unless they can produce a US passport, none of this state driver's license BS. That has nothing to do with citizenship.

I'd be alright with this. Give a 90-day window for people to get passports, and reduce the fees to do so. Every single illegal would end up in jail. Is that what you want?
 
Zentraedi
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:46 am

Quoting UNCRDU (Reply 11):
Sure we are. We're asked for proof of citizenship (license, registration, and insurance) every time we are pulled over for a traffic violation, for instance.

Those are in no way proof of citizenship.

Quoting UNCRDU (Reply 11):
I'd be alright with this. Give a 90-day window for people to get passports, and reduce the fees to do so. Every single illegal would end up in jail. Is that what you want?

How about an honest and consistent message that does not discriminate? As for passport for everybody, why not a national ID card? Lots of countries have these.
 
UNCRDU
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:48 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 12):

Those are in no way proof of citizenship.

In most states you need to be a citizen to get a driver's license.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 12):
How about an honest and consistent message that does not discriminate? As for passport for everybody, why not a national ID card? Lots of countries have these.

Sure, I'd be in favor of a national ID card as long as only US citizens can obtain one. And then, like you suggested, lock up everyone that doesn't have one.
 
Zentraedi
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:00 am

Quoting UNCRDU (Reply 13):
In most states you need to be a citizen to get a driver's license.

Which states? I can't think of a single state that requires US citizenship to get a driver's license.

Keep in mind legal resident isn't the same thing as citizen. Also, legal residency is not necessarily permanent.

Quoting UNCRDU (Reply 13):
Sure, I'd be in favor of a national ID card as long as only US citizens can obtain one. And then, like you suggested, lock up everyone that doesn't have one.

Holy crap! You would lock up all foreign business people, tourists and students!?!? That's a bit too xenophobic for me.

[Edited 2010-11-08 23:02:30]
 
UNCRDU
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:03 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 14):
Which states? I can't think of a single state that requires US citizenship to get a driver's license.

Some states require SSN's, which illegal immigrants do not have.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:03 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
I know one of them personally, you cannot reason with them, bleeding hearts, shall we say.

Yes, Christianity is a bleeding-heart liberal religion if practiced correctly.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):

What a crock of bull dinky, I wonder how we existed for all these years without being buried by illegals.

Well, given that Texas used to be part of Mexico, you actually didn't exist without Mexicans. Ever.

Illegal immigration across the Mexican border is about as old as the border itself and illegal immigrants have been a part of our economy from the dawn of our economy. As early as 1921, Mexican illegal immigration was already fueling our economy. There was a significant dip during the 1930's (Great Depression) when many went back to Mexico because they fared better there. But after the end of WWII it picked right back up.

Basically, at no point since the establishment of the Mexico-US border has illegal immigration not been an issue and at no point since has illegal immigrant labor not been a major economic force.

Now, I'm not defending illegal immigration by any means. I fully support any means to stop it. They burden the welfare system and the criminal justice system. But one thing is for sure: they do NOT take away jobs from Americans because no American would ever work for the pay and working conditions that illegals do.

If all illegal immigrants were snatched up by space aliens tomorrow, Americans (and I'm including legal resident aliens in that word for our purposes here) would have to pick up the slack. But an American costs 3-5x as much as an illegal immigrant. That means that all of our produce would become *much* more expensive. So would restaurant meals. Everything. An apple would go from 50¢ to $2-3. In other words, a vast devaluation of the Dollar.

So what are we to do? Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.

Well, first of all, we have to accept that if we really want to tackle this we're all going to have to pony up some more cash. But the solution is a "guest worker" program, much like many other countries use. This would be a permit that would allow an immigrant to come here and work with no citizenship path attached to it. And some conditions. For example: no having kids, no offenses higher than a civil infraction (we're not going to kick them out over a parking ticket), no welfare, you pay taxes, etc. There would also have to be conditions on employers of guest laborers, like covering their healthcare, minimum wages (which would be lower than the standard American minimum wage), etc.

The other thing we need to do is de-incentivise illegal immigration. One big reason they come is to make a better future for their children. They come here and start having babies. If we repealed the 16th amendment and took away jus soil, that would come to a screeching halt. For all the liberal braying I hear about human rights and what a travesty it would be with babies without a nationality, it's a bunch of horsedung. Very few countries have jus soil and almost all countries will grant automatic nationality to the child of a national, regardless of location of birth. There would be no "nationless" children. The newborn would be a Mexican citizen and would be deported back to Mexico with the parents.

But, unfortunately, these policies must be done at a national level. They aren't going to work on a state level. All they are going to do is cripple the economies of the states that get "tough on immigration," especially when there is no substitute guest worker program.

There's also the issue that LEGALLY immigrating to the United States is next to impossible. And we need to fix that.
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Zentraedi
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:08 am

Quoting UNCRDU (Reply 15):
Some states require SSN's, which illegal immigrants do not have.

Neither do legal foreign nationals! As far as I know, all states make exceptions for non-citizen that have legal residency at the time of application. Thus, those people do not need to provide an SSN.

Now please answer the question.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 14):
Which states? I can't think of a single state that requires US citizenship to get a driver's license.

Which states require US citizenship in order to obtain a driver's license? Name at least one.
 
UNCRDU
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:09 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
So what are we to do? Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.

Well, first of all, we have to accept that if we really want to tackle this we're all going to have to pony up some more cash. But the solution is a "guest worker" program, much like many other countries use. This would be a permit that would allow an immigrant to come here and work with no citizenship path attached to it. And some conditions. For example: no having kids, no offenses higher than a civil infraction (we're not going to kick them out over a parking ticket), no welfare, you pay taxes, etc. There would also have to be conditions on employers of guest laborers, like covering their healthcare, minimum wages (which would be lower than the standard American minimum wage), etc.

The other thing we need to do is de-incentivise illegal immigration. One big reason they come is to make a better future for their children. They come here and start having babies. If we repealed the 16th amendment and took away jus soil, that would come to a screeching halt. For all the liberal braying I hear about human rights and what a travesty it would be with babies without a nationality, it's a bunch of horsedung. Very few countries have jus soil and almost all countries will grant automatic nationality to the child of a national, regardless of location of birth. There would be no "nationless" children. The newborn would be a Mexican citizen and would be deported back to Mexico with the parents.

But, unfortunately, these policies must be done at a national level. They aren't going to work on a state level. All they are going to do is cripple the economies of the states that get "tough on immigration," especially when there is no substitute guest worker program.

I agree with all of this. Very well-put.
 
Mudboy
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:40 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 17):
Which states require US citizenship in order to obtain a driver's license? Name at least one.

In MS you have to show your SS Card, and proof of residence, in the form of an electric or phone bill with your address on it. I don't know about other states?
 
Zentraedi
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:10 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 19):
In MS you have to show your SS Card, and proof of residence, in the form of an electric or phone bill with your address on it. I don't know about other states?

They actually do make provisions for foreign nationals. Those provisions do stipulate that the license validity is tied to the length of the visa. The problem is that the these things are administered at two different levels, state and federal, and databases are not linked.

You want a clear and consistent immigration and ID system? Get the states out of it and have it managed centrally by the federal government.
 
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Tugger
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:12 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 10):
If they pass this, people should be incarcerated unless they can produce a US passport, none of this state driver's license BS. That has nothing to do with citizenship.

However I am fine if people are detained briefly for further verification if they cannot produce a drivers license (while driving). I will happily produce my license and so should anyone driving. Anyone who cannot produce a drivers license should not be to bothered with a few extra steps needed to verify ones identity. It is important (from not eluding outstanding warrants etc., to needing your identity for the purpose of having at ticket issued for driving without a license).

I know that the one time I did not have my license on my when I was pulled over the officer politely asked me for other information (SSN, home address) and with my insurance card in hand went and checked if I was who I said I was. Once the problem was cleared up I was sent on my way (with a ticket, yea...)

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 17):
Now please answer the question.

I understand your question and your reason for asking however I believe it is just a misunderstanding/misstatement that is causing the problem. I do not think the intent was that people need "citizenship" but rather "legal residency". Ultimately everyone understands the difference but in haste may say "citizen" in error.

So as regarding CA, here is what they say:

Quote:
Social security number (SSN) requirement

The Social Security Act allows any state to use the SSN to establish the identification of an individual. The California Vehicle Code requires the collection of the social security number.

All applicants must submit to DMV their social security number.....
*(.... etc., etc. link here for full text: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm )

Exception to the SSN requirement:

If you are legally present in the US, but ineligible for an SSN, you are exempt from SSN requirements. However, you must still provide an acceptable birth date/legal presence document for any DL/ID card application OR provide a valid SSN.

----------

Birth date verification and legal presence requirements

The issue of identification reliability, integrity, and confidentiality is of prime concern to all citizens. Eligibility for government services, issuance of various licenses, assessment of taxes, the right to vote, etc., are all determined through evaluations based on identification documents. It is critical that identification documents be authenticated and accurate in identifying each individual. The California driver license and ID card have been declared as primary identification documents in this state by the California legislature.

State law requires every applicant for an original California identification (ID) card and driver license to show verification of birth date and proof of legal presence within the United States to help safeguard the accuracy and integrity of departmental documents.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Zentraedi
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:15 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 21):
However I am fine if people are detained briefly for further verification if they cannot produce a drivers license (while driving). I will happily produce my license and so should anyone driving. Anyone who cannot produce a drivers license should not be to bothered with a few extra steps needed to verify ones identity. It is important (from not eluding outstanding warrants etc., to needing your identity for the purpose of having at ticket issued for driving without a license).

I have no problem requiring one to operate a motor vehicle, but there are many cases where people demand one of others not even in a car.

In fact, I remember once when I had my driver's license taken for a speeding ticket and not being able to pay the fine on the spot in exact change. Well, until they mailed it back, I used my passport as ID. At several places I was told that a US passport is not real ID or "Where did you get that funky ID?"

Quoting tugger (Reply 21):
I understand your question and your reason for asking however I believe it is just a misunderstanding/misstatement that is causing the problem. I do not think the intent was that people need "citizenship" but rather "legal residency". Ultimately everyone understands the difference but in haste may say "citizen" in error.

And I believe the fault for that misunderstanding/misstatement lies on those using the incorrect term. By doing so, we fall into the trap of conflating illegal immigrants with legal immigrants and perpetuating discrimination against the latter. That is something I am strongly opposed to.

That misunderstanding/misstatement actually gets taken advantage of by groups on both sides of the debate. There are many who know the difference very well yet still choose to use the wrong term. You'll have conservatives who are against both legal/illegal immigrants trying to promote the "citizen test" and then you get liberals who are for both legal/illegal immigration telling us to turn a blind eye.


In the end, I think we need to realize that immigration issues are the domain of the federal government, and that if you want to use and ID system to determine residency status, that ID system needs to be linked to federal immigration authority.
 
Mudboy
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:24 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 22):
I used my passport as ID. At several places I was told that a US passport is not real ID or "Where did you get that funky ID?"
 
ltbewr
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:36 am

When I recently renewed my Drivers License in New Jersey, I used my USA Passport for the Citizenship status requirement. A Passport, along with Government Employee, Military or 'Green Cards' for legal foreign national residents are about the only 'National' ID's the USA offers. The USA is among only a few countries (including the UK) that does not issue a National ID or Citizenship card for all it's citizens although we have defaulted to State issued Drivers Licenses or non-drivers ID card issued by the Motor Vehicle offices.

The nature of our creation, our Republic system, fear of strong central government, all have kept away National ID cards. Of course, if we did require such ID Cards it would make it easier for law enforcement and for employers to determine citizenship status and perhaps help reduce the problem with illegals in the USA and the need for questinable laws like those proposed in Texas.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:01 pm

Quoting UNCRDU (Reply 13):

In most states you need to be a citizen to get a driver's license.

My mom is a Green Card holder and she has a DL in the State of CA...she had one in TX too. So no, a DL is NOT proof of Citizenship in most cases.
 
blueflyer
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:27 pm

I can't see that law passing. As a voting block, Texan Hispanics are more powerful and better connected than their New Mexican counterparts.

Furthermore, I think even conservative Republicans know it will not pass. They're trading short-term gains for long-term losses.If anything, this will drive voter registration among Hispanics for years and paint Texas a little bit more California blue a little faster.

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
The cities and towns need to follow the laws on the books or face repercussion's.

Local control except when it doesn't fit with the current agenda, I see...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
no welfare, you pay taxes, etc.

Small point of detail, but if they do not benefit from welfare, however little there is, are their taxes adjusted to reflect that?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
In other words, a vast devaluation of the Dollar.

And not just that. If employers have to raise salaries by a substantial amount to attract legal labor in industries such as hotels, restaurants and manufacturing, it will lead, at least in the short term, to massive job losses among the legal workforce as well. These industries do not run only with illegals as labor. They have legally employed managers, front-of-the-house staff, accountants, executives, etc... Force them to raise wages too much and some of them will absolutely price themselves out of the market.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
minimum wages (which would be lower than the standard American minimum wage)

There you lost me. By allowing for a lower migrant workforce minimum wage than the "American" minimum wage, you are further encouraging the use of migrant workers over domestic ones, for, every now and then, domestic workers do perform certain jobs at minimum wage, but you just priced them out of the market.

Also, who decides which minimum wage may be applied to what job/industry? Is it my choice as a hypothetical business owner? If so, you have legalized a form of employment discrimination whereby I can legally refuse to hire any domestic worker by selecting the migrant minimum wage as my starting pay. Should it rather be based on the status of each new hire? While I no longer have the legal cover, I still have a very strong incentive to hire only migrant workers, but I also lose my capability to forecast my future costs since I can't predict what my actual starting wage is going to be.
As for government, if it has to choose which industries can have a migrant minimum wage, we all know common sense will not prevail, but the power of the lobbyists' pocket book.

To put it short, everything else in your proposal makes sense, except the different minimum wages.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 17):
Neither do legal foreign nationals!
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
NIKV69
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:34 pm

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 12):
How about an honest and consistent message that does not discriminate? As for passport for everybody, why not a national ID card? Lots of countries have these.

It's a no brainer. The national ID card would solve the problem but you have to remember the left in this country doesn't want to solve the problem. They want open borders and sanctuary cities.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
mt99
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:44 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 27):
The national ID card would solve the problem

Please.. How many people here had trouble with filling out the census?

Imagine the outrage of the government making you carry a piece of plastic!. How communist.. !
Step into my office, baby
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:44 pm

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 26):

Small point of detail, but if they do not benefit from welfare, however little there is, are their taxes adjusted to reflect that?

My answer: yup. If they don't like it then they can stay in their home countries.

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 26):

To put it short, everything else in your proposal makes sense, except the different minimum wages.

So you want to pay guest workers the standard minimum wage? Again, you'll devalue the Dollar.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Zentraedi
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:54 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 27):
It's a no brainer. The national ID card would solve the problem but you have to remember the left in this country doesn't want to solve the problem. They want open borders and sanctuary cities.

Don't delude yourself into being a left/right cheerleader. The right in the US also has opposed such national ID measures.

Also, saying the left wants open borders and sanctuary cities is like saying the right wants to eliminate jus soli, lock the US down like the USSR and put ankle bracelets on all foreign nationals entering the US.
 
slider
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:59 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):
The Sanctuary city portion is key. Governors of states with sanctuary cities should take notice.

Agreed. And while Bill White was a decent mayor and I supported him in Houston, that was one thing he was terribly myopic about. And the murder of HPD Officer Rodney Johnson by an illegal alien only inflamed that. It never became an issue in the gubernatorial election because Perry/White were never really in a competitive race, but when White vies for the Senate seat next cycle, you bet it'll become an issue.

Quoting texan (Reply 9):
Earlier this year, Perry said he would not support any such measure that came across his desk. One of the few times I agreed with him. We'll see if it sees debate or if it gets canned by Gov'nor Good Hair.

Perry's been remarkably teflon on this issue. I think he's been pretty savvy at triangulating the immigration issue---recognizing the value, but also steering clear of controversy too much (my personal opinion is that he's going to run for POTUS which is why he's been so deft and not too rancorous on it). But given the dominance of the Republicans in the state legislature, Perry will get forced into signing some sort of immigration bill.

Dewhurst is a bit more aggressive on this politically as Lt Gov and I wouldn't be surprised to see his ascend and weigh in, to help steer Perry to a measure that balances enforcement of the law against the economic needs. The reality is that it is a severe problem in TX and can no longer be the elephant in the room.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Well, given that Texas used to be part of Mexico, you actually didn't exist without Mexicans. Ever.

So what? Non sequitur. National borders shift all the time through wars. And thanks to the battle of San Jacinto, the United States ultimately directly gained 1/5th of its land mass and immense long-term prosperity.

But you're right, that the canvas of TX is very demographically mixed and it's one strength TX has.
 
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:19 pm

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 30):
Also, saying the left wants open borders and sanctuary cities is like saying the right wants to eliminate jus soli, lock the US down like the USSR and put ankle bracelets on all foreign nationals entering the US.

Unfortunately this is complete BS though. The left through their inaction and support of cities that turn a blind eye to illegal aliens proves that their position is to have the status quo stay and the right doesn't want to be like Russia. They just want people entering the country legally. Nice try though.
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:12 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 32):
he left through their inaction and support of cities that turn a blind eye to illegal aliens proves that their position is to have the status quo stay and the right doesn't want to be like Russia. They just want people entering the country legally.

So to avoid this, you want Americans to be "tagged" by the government via a National ID card?
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:24 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
So you want to pay guest workers the standard minimum wage?

Yes, because I don't want to give employers any more reason/incentive than they already have (and there are plenty) to hire foreigners rather than domestic workers.

There are certain minimum wage jobs that are performed by legal workers today (admittedly not many). If the employers are allowed to pay foreign workers a lower wage, might they not want to find reasons to get rid of their current employees and hire foreign workers at a lower cost?
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Zentraedi
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:12 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 32):
Unfortunately this is complete BS though. The left through their inaction and support of cities that turn a blind eye to illegal aliens proves that their position is to have the status quo stay and the right doesn't want to be like Russia. They just want people entering the country legally. Nice try though.

That "right" is pundit hysterics. Now lets talk about reality. Yes, the Republicans have offered amnesty several times. When in power they also never made any serious attempts to reform immigration. Furthermore, if they truly wanted to discourage illegal immigration, they would come down hard on employers of illegal immigrants--something they steadfastly refuse. Instead they point to the brown people as a means of scaring, riling people up and distracting from other more important issues.
 
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:31 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 27):
The national ID card would solve the problem but you have to remember the left in this country doesn't want to solve the problem.

The idea of a National ID card was hardly a Conservative idea. I think it was Clinton. Again the Democrats have recently suggested it again, but privacy advocates on both ends of the spectrum oppose it.

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 34):

Yes, because I don't want to give employers any more reason/incentive than they already have (and there are plenty) to hire foreigners rather than domestic workers.

That can be dealt with by choosing regulation to basically maintain the status quo. Illegals are typically employed in agriculture and low-level service industries. If the guest worker status is reserved for those jobs, it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

If farmers are going to have to start paying $7.25/hr plus taxes and health insurance, the former $3/hr labor is going to skyrocket to $10/hr. Now we really will have an issue with devaluation of the dollar and businesses being priced out of existence.

Guest workers have to have limited scope and decreased pay. They'd be here to do the grunt work that citizens (And again, I'm using that word to include legal resident aliens) would never do. Otherwise, there's no point to the program.
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:23 pm

BTW, it will be interesting to see what happens to the economies of TX and AZ. TX has been doing rather well.

If it crashes in the wake of the 2010 elections, I wonder how many people will accept that this law had a large hand in it?
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:02 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Yes, Christianity is a bleeding-heart liberal religion if practiced correctly.

I cannot argue with that, but when they become advocates of lawbreakers, such as immigration law, identity theft, welfare fraud, you name it, are they practicing Christianity? Not what I was taught in Sunday School.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Well, given that Texas used to be part of Mexico, you actually didn't exist without Mexicans. Ever.

That I cannot argue with either, but I am in Rhode Island, just a few miles from Texas. It seems that the Texas's original inhabitants, and many others have migrated a little to the North, South, East, and West, and many with the help of those bleeding hearts, who follow their idea of a conscience, not the law of the United States. A conflict, it seems. If you are in the car when the bank is robbed, you are an accessory, just as someone from a church helps an illegal immigrant, are they not an accessory to a law violation? I hope Texas passes this law, or laws.
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:19 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 38):

I cannot argue with that, but when they become advocates of lawbreakers, such as immigration law, identity theft, welfare fraud, you name it, are they practicing Christianity? Not what I was taught in Sunday School.

Someone in your Sunday School hadn't read their gospel, then.

But this isn't about Christianity. It will be interesting, however, to see the repercussions of the authorities raiding churches thought to harbor illegals. They will need to tread very lightly.
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Mir
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:25 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
That can be dealt with by choosing regulation to basically maintain the status quo. Illegals are typically employed in agriculture and low-level service industries. If the guest worker status is reserved for those jobs, it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

If farmers are going to have to start paying $7.25/hr plus taxes and health insurance, the former $3/hr labor is going to skyrocket to $10/hr. Now we really will have an issue with devaluation of the dollar and businesses being priced out of existence.

Guest workers have to have limited scope and decreased pay.

I understand the logic, but I feel mighty weird about the idea of creating what amounts to a legal underclass.

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slider
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:55 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
I understand the logic, but I feel mighty weird about the idea of creating what amounts to a legal underclass

The point that is wholly germane to this argument that oft gets ignored is that we ALREADY have an underclass, a virtual slave class among our ranks NOW. The wave of illegal immigration has caused an underclass of sorts already, a rift of non-assimilation that is having a massive impact today.

A guest worker program does nothing to stop that. It only legitimizes the already-illegal behavior, but does nothing to balance any macroeconomic factors, much less tax burden, etc because businesses will circumvent all they can.

Besides, we need a very selective immigration program that should seek the BEST we can from any corner of the globe as long as they understand, believe in and support the ideals of America. Today, the destitute and rudderless country of Mexico refuses to acknowledge its own national shame in this, in seeing at least 1 of every 4 able-bodied working class men leaving their families and villages to come north. And then Mexico wonders why it has a drug gang problem when those fatherless kids turn to crime. The cycle cannot continue in this manner…it is untenable and unsustainable and merely waving a magic wand and declaring them legal, or creating some bureaucratic guest worker program WILL NOT change it.

All of that said, it’s still pretty remarkable that our nation can absorb to such a degree it has all of this.
 
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:15 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):

I understand the logic, but I feel mighty weird about the idea of creating what amounts to a legal underclass.

Better than an illegal one. And at least in this sense, they're on the books and they aren't slaves. They want to walk, they walk... but they walk home.

Another idea is to bring back indentured servitude as a path to legal resident alien status.
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:20 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 41):
All of that said, it’s still pretty remarkable that our nation can absorb to such a degree it has all of this.

Not really. We're a large economy that needs cheap labor. If we want cheap lettuce, and there's people willing to work for a correspondingly low wage, the invisible hand will gladly direct those workers to our fields.

You wouldn't see so many illegal immigrants hired if it wasn't a mutually beneficial transaction for both immigrant and employer.
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:17 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 43):
Not really. We're a large economy that needs cheap labor. If we want cheap lettuce, and there's people willing to work for a correspondingly low wage, the invisible hand will gladly direct those workers to our fields.

The problem is, that the farm workers are now a small part of the illegal immigration population, they are everywhere, taking any job where the exploiters want cheap labor. Our economy is shrinking, obviously not enough jobs to go around now. Where will these millions work, without jobs? Many cannot hire them as they used to, without jobs themselves. It is mostly an underground economy, taking, but not giving. I do not care what the bleeding hearts want us to believe, they take, more than they give as far as I am concerned.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 43):
You wouldn't see so many illegal immigrants hired if it wasn't a mutually beneficial transaction for both immigrant and employer.

It is known as exploitation. I screw them over, I make more money, there is not one ounce of concern for helping anyone but themselves. Now the church bleeding hearts, encourage them to come here and then dump them into our system for us to deal with.
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WarRI1
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:37 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 43):
Not really. We're a large economy that needs cheap labor. If we want cheap lettuce, and there's people willing to work for a correspondingly low wage, the invisible hand will gladly direct those workers to our fields.

You wouldn't see so many illegal immigrants hired if it wasn't a mutually beneficial transaction for both immigrant and employer.

The link below goes along with the argument, and shows the reasons why people hire illegals, especially the pay issue.



http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/29/news/economy/jobs_immigrants/index.htm
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Yellowstone
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:29 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 44):
It is known as exploitation. I screw them over, I make more money, there is not one ounce of concern for helping anyone but themselves.

How are you screwing the immigrant laborer over? He's making more money than he would have if you hadn't hired him.
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WarRI1
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:13 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 46):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 44):
It is known as exploitation. I screw them over, I make more money, there is not one ounce of concern for helping anyone but themselves.

How are you screwing the immigrant laborer over? He's making more money than he would have if you hadn't hired him.

When you are using the fact that someone is poor, desparate, and illegal to pay them less money, you are exploiting them. I know that is the Capitalists way, but it is still taking advantage of them for your own advantage. I think that meets the definition of exploitation. "To take unfair advantage of a person, or situation." I think paying them less money because of their situation, fits the bill.
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Yellowstone
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:26 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 47):
I think paying them less money because of their situation, fits the bill.

I think you've got it backwards. They're not being paid less because they're poor/illegal; rather, the job pays so poorly that only the poor/illegal are willing to take it.
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WarRI1
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RE: 'Arizona Style' Immigration Law Proposed In Texas

Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:37 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 48):
I think you've got it backwards. They're not being paid less because they're poor/illegal; rather, the job pays so poorly that only the poor/illegal are willing to take it.

Well, I do not think so, one can self justify anything. If one can watch desparate people hanging on a corner looking for work to feed themselves, or their family and then offer them less money, to me that is exploitive. You can call it anything you like, I know what I call it. Read the definition, when you lower someones wage to save yourself money, well knowing they are desparate, well Duh!
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