ltbewr
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'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:49 pm

This week has seen the release of Former US President George W. Bush's book on him and his Presidency. Of course, a few pages of disclosures in the book get the most attention. While it does avoid criticism of current President Obama, he continues to cling, but with few exceptions, as to his absolute views as to many issues. Among the most interesting bits:

- Admitting to a 'love affair' with alcohol, that continued into his early 40's.
- Admitting that the banner 'Mission Accomplished' was a big mistake.
- Admitting that the picture of him flying over in AF1 the New Orleans and other areas devastated by Katrina was a big mistake.
- That he considered changing out Chenny as his VP in the 2004 election.
- His approval of the use of 'waterboarding' of selected terror suspects.
- His decision to go to war in Iraq even with questionable evidence of Saddam Hussein and WMD's.
- Not giving a full pardon, only a commutation of sentence, to 'Scooter' Libby as to his outing of CIA agent Valerie Palme (perhaps to avoid the criticism of former Pres. Clinton who made a number of very controversial pardons as he left office.

Last night (Monday) NBC network had a 1 hour program where he was interviewed by Matt Lauer about the book. Of course he will be making the rounds from Oprah to Leno and probably Fox News to plug his book. One has to wonder if some of the disclosures will end up being used as evidence to bring Human Rights Law charges in some countries. I also have a serious problem that it is normal for former Presidents and other top government leaders not just in the USA to do a book for personal profit rather than disclose important information that should be public record at no cost. I think what a former PM for the UK did, donating the profits for his book to funds for war injured soldiers is a much more honorable thing.

I suspect this book will continue to be analyzed to death, but I think it will help us to understand GWB a bit better.
 
virgin744
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:13 pm

It still beggars belief how this man was able to get into power and then win reelection, a sad indictment on the American people. Watching him last night reminded me of how inept he was as a leader, absolutely shocking!
Just a couple of points that stood out;


On using torture:
LAUER: Why is waterboarding legal, in your opinion?
BUSH: Because the lawyer said it was legal. He said it did not fall within the Anti-Torture Act. I'm not a lawyer., but you gotta trust the judgment of people around you and I do.
LAUER: You say it's legal. "And the lawyers told me."
BUSH: Yeah.
LAUER: Critics say that you got the Justice Department to give you the legal guidance and the legal memos that you wanted.
BUSH: Well—
LAUER: Tom Kean, who a former Republican co-chair of the 9/11 commission said they got legal opinions they wanted from their own people.
BUSH: He obviously doesn't know. I hope Mr. Kean reads the book. That's why I've written the book. He can, they can draw whatever conclusion they want. But I will tell you this. Using those techniques saved lives. My job is to protect America and I did.

LAUER: So if-- if it's legal, President Bush, then if an American is taken into custody in a foreign country, not necessarily a uniformed--
BUSH: Look, I --
LAUER: American­­--
BUSH: I'm not gonna the issue, Matt. I, I really--
LAUER: I'm just asking. Would it be okay for a foreign country to waterboard an American citizen?
BUSH: It's all I ask is that people read the book. And they can reach the same conclusion. If they'd have made the same decision I made or not.


and on Katrina:
LAUER: The other moment where there seemed to be a huge disconnect between you and the people, especially the people on the ground, was famously with FEMA director Mike Brown.
BUSH: Yeah. (laughs)
LAUER: You know, we were all watching and we were broadcasting images of misery.
BUSH: No, I know. I know.
He says the comment came after he met with the governors of Alabama and Mississippi, both Republicans, who both praised Brown.
BUSH: I tend to boost people's spirits during difficult times. And these two governors are sayin, "This guy's doin' a good job" and of course I say…
BUSH (original press footage): Brownie, you are doing a heck of a job.
BUSH: Basically what I was sayin' it-- "Good job. You're doin' what we expect you to do." The problem is--
LAUER: That's not what we were seein'.
BUSH: Yeah, exactly (laughs). I understand. I understand. I mean the only thing I can tell you is you're right.
 
Confuscius
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:26 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
That he considered changing out Chenny as his VP in the 2004 election.

but was overruled by the vice-president!
 
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:38 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
His decision to go to war in Iraq even with questionable evidence of Saddam Hussein and WMD's

Well that's not quite what he said - he told Lauer that he had "no doubt in his mind" as to the validity of the intelligence provided because George Tenet assured him it was "solid."
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dxing
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:21 pm

Ok, I'll start the side betting. 75 posts and this gets locked? Any takers?

On the book.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
While it does avoid criticism of current President Obama,

Correct and unlike President Obama on President Bush he actually praises President Obama. Given the continued cheap shots that President Obama makes about President Bush at every turn I think that is pretty magnaimous of President Bush and shows who has the greater character.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20101107/ts_csm/341740_1

Praise for ObamaThere is no criticism of President Obama in Bush’s book, and he praises Obama for his more-aggressive policy on Afghanistan, for his “smart, disciplined, high-tech campaign” in 2008, and for the “calm demeanor” Obama displayed at a special White House meeting during the financial crisis in September of that year.
“I thought it was smart when he informed the gathering that he was in constant contact with Hank” Paulson, he writes. “His purpose was to show that he was aware, in touch, and prepared to help get a bill passed.”


Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
I also have a serious problem that it is normal for former Presidents and other top government leaders not just in the USA to do a book for personal profit rather than disclose important information that should be public record at no cost.

You can read about it no cost. Reserve a copy from your local library.

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 3):
but was overruled by the vice-president!

From the link above.

Should he drop Cheney?Bush considered dropping Dick Cheney from the ticket in 2006 (perhaps replacing him with then-Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee) – an idea put forth by Cheney himself, but subsequently rejected by Bush.

On the waterboarding. President Obama allowed the release of information about the waterboarding but then declines to release the information gained by it only saying its "classified". Well if it remains classified that would indicate to me at least that it has some revelant importance.

He also says in the link on the financial meltdown:

Bush also writes that he was “blindsided by a financial crisis that had been more than a decade in the making.â€
“I assumed any major credit troubles would have been flagged by the regulators or rating agencies,” he writes.


Which goes to show that once you enter the bubble that is the White House you can lose a lot of perspective on what is actually happening as there are so many things coming at you every day its hard to keep your head above water. Even when he did realize that things weren't going so well, some in the government worked against any efforts he made to reform the system before it came crashing down.


I just bought the book for my eReader and hope to get time to read it over the next few days. I hope he can shed some light on why he felt it was necessary to increase discretionary spending as he did over his 8 years in the Presidency. That is where I find his greatest fault.
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:24 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 9):
Correct and unlike President Obama on President Bush he actually praises President Obama. Given the continued cheap shots that President Obama makes about President Bush at every turn I think that is pretty magnaimous of President Bush and shows who has the greater character.

I got the distinct impression that his comments about the Obama campaign and specifically the Paulson meeting were more intended to criticize John McCain, who he clearly continues to dislike to this day. He wrote that McCain came to the meeting unprepared, LOL.
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Airstud
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:49 pm

Well why would he dislike McCain? McCain is an asset to the Republican party.
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dxing
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:53 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
I got the distinct impression that his comments about the Obama campaign and specifically the Paulson meeting were more intended to criticize John McCain, who he clearly continues to dislike to this day. He wrote that McCain came to the meeting unprepared, LOL.

I would agree with that. However praise is still praise and to give it after all the cheap shots still speaks well of the person giving it.
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:53 pm

Quoting Airstud (Reply 11):
Well why would he dislike McCain?

Interference at various points in his administration, criticism of Iraq policy, personal dislike, who knows? But no secret they're not the best of friends.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 11):
McCain is an asset to the Republican party.

Perhaps in your view - but I know plenty of people who call him a worthless RINO.
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Airstud
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:06 pm

Well, I meant that he is an asset-type person (Vietnam veteran, shmartperson, doesn't play partisan crap, calls a spade a spade). Also he is a Republican person.

So I could've put that better.

  
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Mir
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:12 pm

Quoting Airstud (Reply 11):
Well why would he dislike McCain?

Who knows? But you don't do the sort of stuff that Bush did to McCain in 2000 unless you really don't like someone.

-Mir
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:17 pm

Quoting virgin744 (Reply 1):
It still beggars belief how this man was able to get into power and then win reelection, a sad indictment on the American people.

Every system has its plusses and its minuses.

He almost didn't win. Some still claim he didn't.

IMHO the main reason was he ran against someone with no charisma (Al Gore) and a loose canon (Joe Lieberman).

And one reason why Obama won was because he ran against a tired man (John McCain) and a brainless cheerleader (Sarah Palin).

The personal appeal of the head of ticket is very important in the US.

Whether it should be or not is another topic.

The UK's system lead to the charismatic Tony Blair handing off to the dour Gordon Brown and more or less giving away power to the Tories.

Like I said, plusses and minuses.
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:03 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
I'm more worried that he basically asked the Justice Department to tell him that waterboarding was acceptable within the law, and then when they did, said "well, they told me it was legal".

That sort of crap can't stand, no matter what the subject matter is.

I'm no supporter of GWB and will always maintain that he was one of the most disastrous presidents in the country's history, but in decisions like this, I am slower to condemn.

Let's look at it from another perspective; let's say a horrific terrorist attack had taken place - for example the attack on LHR, as mentioned by GWB in his book; let's say it later became public knowledge that the individuals who had knowledge of this were in custody and that they were not "appropriately incentivised" to provide information which could have prevented this attack from taking place; what would the public think then? Bottom line: if you have a choice between saving the lives of x,000 people and undermining the rights/dignities of one person (who is also known to have participated in the planning of other atrocities), are you morally justified in not bringing to bear all possible incentives/pressures to elicit information?

Trouble is, of course, that the line is never absolutely clear; you will never have a clear decision, yes or no; you have to go with your instinct; this is part of what these people have done to western societies, or so they may claim. However, at the end of the day, which is the higher duty of government: to protect the lives or its people or the absolute "by the book" administration of justice? I would strongly argue the former, because "the book" never anticipated some of what we have witnessed and our society - including our legal processes - must not be hamstrung in the pursuit of its ultimate duty.
 
Mir
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:39 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 18):
Bottom line: if you have a choice between saving the lives of x,000 people and undermining the rights/dignities of one person (who is also known to have participated in the planning of other atrocities), are you morally justified in not bringing to bear all possible incentives/pressures to elicit information?

Respecting the existing laws is never the wrong answer. If the lawyers say that certain forms of interrogation are acceptable, then fine, but that whole process breaks down when the lawyers are compelled to tell the president what he wants to hear instead of what is accurate.

-Mir
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:46 am

I bought the book and am about 100 pages into it. So far it is a good book. I am enjoying reading it in Business Elite on DL as we scream towards SFO with a bunch of Liberals giving me bad looks for reading it. Bush jumps back and forth on the timeline of his life. To be honest it is nice to read it. The book gives him a human side. Say whatever you want about him, he was a man who loves this country and did everything that he thought that could to make it a better and safer place. Some of the insight to the Rumsfeld and Powell feud is quite interesting. You guys should read the book before you judge it.
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:47 pm

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 21):

well i'm a screaming lefty and i can't wait to read the book. problem is - most of the good points were already given away in the promotional interviews, so now i'm a little slower to pick it up. oh well  

it'll turn into my thanksgiving holiday weekend read, most likely.
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seb146
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:39 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
Admitting that the banner 'Mission Accomplished' was a big mistake.

What about delcaring major combat operations in Iraq have ended?

I kinda feel sorry for the guy, now. It sounds like he did a lot of this stuff to gain acceptance from his collegues and peers, not so much for the good of the nation. I think he needs some heavy therapy.
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:20 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
One has to wonder if some of the disclosures will end up being used as evidence to bring Human Rights Law charges in some countries.

Seriously? C'mon...   
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ltbewr
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:44 am

Getting back to the subject of this book....

Apparently this book fails to discuss certain decisions and behaviors of GWB. For examples just as to the events of 9/11:

- His decision to evacuate relatives of the bin-Ladin family from the USA by air to Saudi Arabia in an exception to the grounding of all aircraft but for military need. To me they all should have been brought to a military base, all their USA assets seized and held until Osama was found and dead. Why was this done? Was it due to the close relationship of the bin-Ladan family and the Bush family to the Saud family who controls Saudi Arabia ? Crickets chirp.

- His decisions to have the EPA declare the air to be safe lower Manhattan along with the 'reopening' of the areas businesses despite the dangerous, toxic air, dusts and debris. Now many 1000's face premature death and terrible illnesses from those exposures and insufficient cleaning just to put Wall Street back in business as a symbol to the terrorists that they Dian't win. Better would have been to enforce EPA and OSHA laws on workers in the neighborhood, to temporarily relocate key financial operations to outside the neighborhood and make sure all structures in the area were properly cleaned before people could return to work or live in them.

- How he reacted at that book reading when the attacks went down. Upon the first word from his Secret Service agent, he should have excused himself, gone off stage, then immediately leave the site instead of keep reading.

These are just a few examples of how this book is more about rehabbing his image rather than discussing his 'decision points'.
 
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:02 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 49):
- How he reacted at that book reading when the attacks went down. Upon the first word from his Secret Service agent, he should have excused himself, gone off stage, then immediately leave the site instead of keep reading.

He discussed this during the Sean Hannity interview for the book. It would be wise for you to go see it and listen to what he said before making assumptions.

Excellent interview with Bush on the factor with Bill.

http://video.foxnews.com/#/v/4415470...e-factor-part-1/?playlist_id=87485

Did you even read the book yet?

[Edited 2010-11-12 04:05:17]

[Edited 2010-11-12 04:38:09]
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:57 pm

Quoting flanker (Reply 50):
Excellent interview with Bush on the factor with Bill.

http://video.foxnews.com/#/v/4415470...e-factor-part-1/?playlist_id=87485

Did you even read the book yet?

I have a lot of respect for President Bush, in how he continues to refuse to bad mouth President Obama, after they keep trying to get him to; He is showing respect for the office.
 
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:52 pm

A fair amount of rule-violating posts were removed from this thread. Please note that this thread was created to discuss former Pres. GW Bush book. Any off-topic content will be removed and users that continue to post in a rule-violating manner may very well have their accounts suspended.

Thank you for your co-operation. I hope you enjoy a great weekend.

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hka098
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:54 pm

I have yet to finish the book, but it seems as if this is a chance to try and spin the history of G.W's Presidency.
 
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:59 pm

I do not tend to read books by politicians of any stripe since I find them to be completely self-indulgent and self-congratuladtory. I may read this one just to see what he has to say about his presidency, but I have not yet made up my mind?

Quoting flanker (Reply 19):
He discussed this during the Sean Hannity interview for the book. It would be wise for you to go see it and listen to what he said before making assumptions.

Out of curiosity, how did he explain it away?
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QANTAS077
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:42 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 24):
I do not tend to read books by politicians of any stripe since I find them to be completely self-indulgent and self-congratuladtory. I may read this one just to see what he has to say about his presidency, but I have not yet made up my mind?

well if this is anything to go by...then you might not be reading his memoirs.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1...Title&utm_term=Daily+Brief#s180908
 
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:02 pm

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 24):
well if this is anything to go by...then you might not be reading his memoirs.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1...80908

Just when I thought my opinion of the man couldn't get any lower, he goes ahead and outdoes himself.
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ual777
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:13 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 25):

Just when I thought my opinion of the man couldn't get any lower, he goes ahead and outdoes himself.

Please. The Huffington Post is a liberal rag that might as well be called 'The Daily Worker.'

I read the article and it seems as if two paragraphs were referencing other books. So what?
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dxing
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:02 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 18):
These are just a few examples

Of how hindsight is 20/20 and it is always easier to offer cheap criticism.

Instead of apparently making judgements with only snipets of the book why not read the book and then offer an honest critique, if that's possible?

Is there a show he has not been on yet giving an interview? It's starting to get kind of ridiculous.
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Mir
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:22 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 27):
Is there a show he has not been on yet giving an interview? It's starting to get kind of ridiculous.

He hasn't been on The Daily Show yet.  

-Mir
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seb146
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:15 pm

Quoting ual777 (Reply 26):
The Huffington Post is a liberal rag

And only "conservative" outlets are allowed to offer book reviews?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 26):
I read the article and it seems as if two paragraphs were referencing other books. So what?

Bush made it sound like he was actually there when, clearly, he was not. That is lying. Remember what happened when another president lied?
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Airstud
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:19 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
Remember what happened when another president lied?

Ummmm....you're going to have to be so much more specific...
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:46 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):

- His approval of the use of 'waterboarding' of selected terror suspects.
- His decision to go to war in Iraq even with questionable evidence of Saddam Hussein and WMD's.

Both of which, IMO, should earn him a free vacation to The Hague.

But the POTUS seems to be above international law.
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:29 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
But the POTUS seems to be above international law.

Our government, and people by extension, have made it clear on numerous occasions that we only ascribe to those peacemeal bits of international law we deem worth paying attention to.
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Airstud
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:37 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):

Both of which, IMO, should earn him a free vacation to The Hague.

But the POTUS seems to be above international law.

One of the many, many, oh so very pungently reverberatingly MANY reasons why I have little (if any) respect for the United Nations is that after they refused to OK our plans to invade Iraq, and after we toppled Baghdad, the UN reconvened and passed another measure that blessed our continued occupation of that country. They had a golden opportunity to stand up to our literally violent spread-eagleism, and instead, these self-styled upholders of international law shrugged their shoulders and handed authority off to the aggressors.

Why is POTUS above international law? You'll have to ask international law - they're the ones who've said he is.
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:20 pm

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 24):
well if this is anything to go by...then you might not be reading his memoirs.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1...80908



this confirms that his memory is spotty and he used other people's writings when he drew a blank... not much different from how he governed. technically it's called plagiarism.. it's illegal, it's cost other politicians the elections or positions, and since this was written after he left office, he could be prosecuted.

what do you want to bet that he Googled the passages.... ?
 
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:29 pm

Quoting Airstud (Reply 33):
They had a golden opportunity to stand up to our literally violent spread-eagleism, and instead, these self-styled upholders of international law shrugged their shoulders and handed authority off to the aggressors.

What were they going to do? Their HQ is in on US soil (well, technically it's a small island of non-US soil, but it's in NYC). The UN has very little power. They can condemn and that's pointless.
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dxing
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:09 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 34):
this confirms that his memory is spotty and he used other people's writings when he drew a blank... not much different from how he governed. technically it's called plagiarism..

Not as long as he attributes the story to its source and the HP article does not make that claim. Out of a book that is over 500 pages they found 16 examples and of those 16 more than one person was present at each so the conversation was remembered almost exactly as had been reported.

Quoting kanban (Reply 34):
it's illegal

Then why is VP Biden a free man?


As to the HP's comparisons, they are all short excerpts and essentially confirm what someone else had written. If he had changed the verbage substantially I'm sure the HP would then be asking how the two stories could be remembered so differently. It's a hit piece as was to be expected.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
nycflyer
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:30 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):

- His approval of the use of 'waterboarding' of selected terror suspects.
- His decision to go to war in Iraq even with questionable evidence of Saddam Hussein and WMD's.

Both of which, IMO, should earn him a free vacation to The Hague.

But the POTUS seems to be above international law.

Seriously, why is the waterboarding so bad? Bush claims that only 3 people were waterboarded. The person who was waterboarded by far the most was Khalid Sheikh Mohamed, the admitted mastermind of 9-11. The U.S. got good intelligence from this and I have to accept Bush at his word that this is part of the reason why the U.S. has never been attacked since 9-11.

Yes, waterboarding is wrong, but if it's reserved for people as despicable as KSM I personally have no problem with it. It's the treatment you sign up for when you decide to devote your life to creating acts of mass terrorism.
 
Mudboy
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:43 am

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 37):
Yes, waterboarding is wrong, but if it's reserved for people as despicable as KSM I personally have no problem with it. It's the treatment you sign up for when you decide to devote your life to creating acts of mass terrorism.

Agreed!
It sickens me that American would think the leader of our country, should be prosecuted for war crimes. If these measures were taken to save lives, then I have no problem with them. This high and mighty attitude that we should not lower ourselves to terrorists, does nothing but make us look weak. If we put ourselves in a fight, the goal is to win, not lose and pat ourselves on the back, for treating people that would kill any of us, just because we are not like them, fair.
We didn't cut heads off, we didn't try to wipe out a race of people, we used the tools we had, to accomplish a mission.

I saw some rant on youtube about GWB's book and they were focusing on his low point was being called a racist, and they were saying it was pathetic he was upset about being called a racist, and all he did was go on and on, about how he should spend 10 years in jail, and all I got from it was "I hate Bush, I hate Bush"! These Liberal don't seem to understand that when you come off like that, no one cares what you have to say.
Ok we get it, you didn't agree with his politics, move on, there is a new guy to blame now. I people just can't stand the fact that Pres. Bush was in office for 8 years, and they want some kind of revenge, but the funny thing is, if they stay down this path and keep looking back, someone else is going to get in there, they do not like.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:54 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 27):

Of how hindsight is 20/20 and it is always easier to offer cheap criticism.

Funny. As a 24 year-old medical student in 2002, I remember saying: "They aren't going to find one drop of WMD's there. Just watch. They may well have to fabricate some."

I'm amazed I was only right about the first half of the statement.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Zentraedi
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:04 am

The thing that bothered me was the whole Republican stance of:

"It's not torture and even if it is, we didn't do it." Republicans trotted that out every where they could and it was all over Fox News.

Talk about a line of BS. I actually see the utility in torture but don't respect disingenuous talk like that. Seriously, that's the type of thing a teenager says. You're justifying and then trying to cover your ass just in case. People need to be smacked for that.


Also, for those saying it's not torture... Well, what qualifies "torture"? If you are going to make an assertion like that, you can't do it arbitrarily.

Also, have you ever been tortured? Would you be willing to volunteer to be water boarded?

I have friends who were in Special Forces and they've told me that "Yeah, it's torture." Personally, I put more stock in that than hearing a pudgy righwing talk show host sitting in a cushy studio making claims about things he has never nor is willing to experience.

Here's one question: Can you point to anyone who has been waterboarded and yet still maintains that it is not torture?

That's kind of a hard question.
 
Mir
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:10 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 38):
If these measures were taken to save lives, then I have no problem with them.

So where is the line?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Mudboy
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:24 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 40):
Also, have you ever been tortured? Would you be willing to volunteer to be water boarded?

I have friends who were in Special Forces and they've told me that "Yeah, it's torture." Personally, I put more stock in that than hearing a pudgy righwing talk show host sitting in a cushy studio making claims about things he has never nor is willing to experience.

And any 18 series, SEAL, Force Recon etc would say the same, as they have been through it

I will be the first one to say that it is torture, but sometimes you have to take the gloves off, to achieve a goal. We have to remember the type of enemy we are dealing with, I would die fighting for my country in a second, but I would not strap C4 on, and run up in a building, and blow myself up. When you are dealing with this type of enemy, you have to step it up a notch, it is war, and the goal is to win and save lives.
 
Mudboy
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:28 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
So where is the line?

-Mir

If there was an impending attack on a US city with a nuke, and you had the mastermind in custody that knew the location of the bomb, and you could save thousands of lives, what would you do?
I would be willing to do whatever it took to save those lives, and would expect my leaders to do the same.
 
stratosphere
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:36 am

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 37):
Yes, waterboarding is wrong, but if it's reserved for people as despicable as KSM I personally have no problem with it. It's the treatment you sign up for when you decide to devote your life to creating acts of mass terrorism.

You know the argument is that since we did this to KSH that it puts our troops in danger. Well HELLO they meaning our enemies do not follow the Geneva convention anyway they have ALWAYS tortured we are the only ones who abide by treaties. I am sick of the bleeding hearts after what they did to us on 911 I say if you need to do a few things outside the norm to get some info I say go for it.
 
Zentraedi
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:49 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 42):
I will be the first one to say that it is torture,

That I can respect. I'm just wondering why so many conservatives and the conservative media try to claim that it isn't.

If several years ago, Bush and the GOP had said, "We don't care if it is torture or not. We're going to do EVERYTHING in our power to safeguard and protect the American people.", I would have had way more respect for them. Instead we got a bunch of pathetic cowards whipping up propaganda campaign trying to claim it isn't torture.
 
Mudboy
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:57 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 45):
If several years ago, Bush and the GOP had said, "We don't care if it is torture or not. We're going to do EVERYTHING in our power to safeguard and protect the American people.", I would have had way more respect for them. Instead we got a bunch of pathetic cowards whipping up propaganda campaign trying to claim it isn't torture.

Because their objective is to ride the fence, and if something could cost them votes, they will deny til they die. Many times there is a clash between the Military objective and the Political objective, I am sure you can guess who usually wins that one?
 
Maverick623
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:17 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 45):
"We don't care if it is torture or not. We're going to do EVERYTHING in our power to safeguard and protect the American people.", I would have had way more respect for them.

I have a hard time swallowing that "torture" is within their "power".
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Mir
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:41 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 43):
I would be willing to do whatever it took to save those lives

You're not answering the question, though: what would you NOT do? At what point does it not become "impending"?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ltbewr
Topic Author
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RE: 'Decision Points' - Former Pres. GWB's Book

Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:17 pm

This is another article from Huffington Post .com, that makes some interesting points about how GWB's book says a lot about him.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anis-s...rince-and-the-pauper_b_782881.html

Basically, the author notes how this book brings to light GWB's Authoritarian personality, the moral absolutism, his contradictions like supporting wars killing 100,000+ of innocents yet deeply against abortion, his patrician family background yet wanting to come off like a west Texas good ol' boy and so on. It is an interesting take and an article well worth reading.

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