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Aaron747
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Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:28 pm

OK, so here's a good example of where the ideologue bleating heads on TV need to man up and admit they've been duped or plain stupid in their rush to judge before checking facts - and worse, how all of this unverified crap pollutes political discourse in this country and gets people talking about the wrong stuff when there are bigger fish to fry.

When widely followed public figures feel free to say anything, without any fact-checking, we have a problem. It becomes impossible for a democracy to think intelligently about big issues — deficit reduction, health care, taxes, energy/climate — let alone act on them. Facts, opinions and fabrications just blend together. But the carnival barkers that so dominate our public debate today are not going away — and neither is the Internet. All you can hope is that more people will do what Cooper did — so when the next crazy lie races around the world, people’s first instinct will be to doubt it, not repeat it.

Couldn't agree more Tom!

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/17/op...n.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
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Mir
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:08 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
OK, so here's a good example of where the ideologue bleating heads on TV need to man up and admit they've been duped or plain stupid in their rush to judge before checking facts

If they're going to claim they were duped by a story with one unnamed source, they'd be admitting that they are just plain stupid. So I wouldn't try it. And yes, they do owe the public a retraction of all the crap that got stirred up.

-Mir
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casinterest
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:11 pm

I disagree completely with the title of your thread and the article. This wasn't a case of Bad Journalism. It was a case of a piss poor representative not fact checking and spouting off lies on public TV. The conservative talking heads of Limbaugh and Beck aren't legitimate Reporters, as they have a Conservative Agenda, so it was in their interest to repeat something that Michele Bachmann said. Cooper who was the only responsible journalist involvedin this story and actually fact checked.
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Aaron747
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:16 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 2):
This wasn't a case of Bad Journalism.

Sure it was - the blog outlets, commentators, pundits and everyone else who used the story as a bully pulpit were guilty of spreading misinformation that was never verified.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 2):
It was a case of a piss poor representative not fact checking and spouting off lies on public TV.

Agreed there - I don't expect Michele Bachmann to be truthful as a matter of course.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 2):
The conservative talking heads of Limbaugh and Beck aren't legitimate Reporters

Even so, absent the ideological viewpoints they represent, some modicum of appropriate use of facts would at least be the responsible thing to do.
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Mir
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:19 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
Even so, absent the ideological viewpoints they represent, some modicum of appropriate use of facts would at least be the responsible thing to do.

   There's a difference between pushing one side of the story and putting down the other and just throwing stuff out there when it hasn't been verified in order to make an agenda. Just because someone is a commentator and not a reporter doesn't give them carte blanche to not fact check their material.

-Mir
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avent
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:22 pm

I think journalists should be licensed. Produce crap like that and you get suspended or booted out of the profession. Lawyers, Doctors, Accountants, for example, are bound by professional ethics. Why not journalists...
 
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:23 pm

How much did the ten day (10) trip actually cost?

The reason wild figures like $200,000,000 a day are used is because when the actual cost is asked the question is dismissed or side stepped.

No matter what the trip cost it was an utter with nothing accomplished, except for a lot of people getting a nice all expenses paid vacation.
 
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:27 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 6):
The reason wild figures like $200,000,000 a day are used is because when the actual cost is asked the question is dismissed or side stepped.

Not at all true. One could provide reasonable estimates instead of choosing to embrace stupidity. Numbers like the above are very revealing of the toxic dementia that permeates rightwing politics.
 
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:35 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 6):
The reason wild figures like $200,000,000 a day are used is because when the actual cost is asked the question is dismissed or side stepped.

Accurate figure reporting would allow certain groups to make educated guesses as to the extent of security personnel and deployment. At least you admit the figures are crazy wild. The estimate was provided by the White House though - somewhere in the neighborhood of $5 - $6 million a day.

It seems most likely that the Indian press was reporting the cost in Rupees and that's where the 200 million possibly came from.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 6):
No matter what the trip cost it was an utter with nothing accomplished, except for a lot of people getting a nice all expenses paid vacation.

Thanks for the ideologue flag waving. If you had respect for the office itself, it would be a bit easier to understand why the chief executive makes such trips - regardless of who it is.
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Mir
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:42 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 6):
The reason wild figures like $200,000,000 a day are used is because when the actual cost is asked the question is dismissed or side stepped.

And there's good reason for that.

But you don't have to get a concrete number to know that the idea of 30+ warships being sent to India to support a presidential visit is completely ridiculous. And that should be a clue that other parts of the story might have gaping holes as well.

-Mir
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:16 pm

Quoting avent (Reply 7):
Numbers like the above are very revealing of the toxic dementia that permeates rightwing politics.

As revealing as the United States losing 500 million jobs a month if we didn't immediately pass the stimulus bill! I forget who said that. People make verbal gaffs all the time. Nothing to see here, move along.
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:21 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 11):
As revealing as the United States losing 500 million jobs a month if we didn't immediately pass the stimulus bill! I forget who said that. People make verbal gaffs all the time.

Never heard that one - goes to show the rightwing bias of the mainstream media I suppose.
 
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:26 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 11):
People make verbal gaffs all the time. Nothing to see here, move along.

Um, when something is repeated in multiple media outlets by multiple personalities, it's a bit more than a gaffe. Criticizing a person based on made up information is just stupidity. You know - kind of like Charlie Rangel claiming his ethics hearing was unfair because he chose to walk out.
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:36 pm

Quoting avent (Reply 12):
Never heard that one - goes to show the rightwing bias of the mainstream media I suppose.

A picture is worth a thousand words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52WLdiqojOs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8hMJVXt09E&feature=related

Not one of those reporters in that room called her on that figure.


And then of course there was Wolf Blitzer taking the Speaker at her word there would be no pork barrel spending in the stimulus bill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaDtkG6afBc&feature=related

Of course we know how that turned out.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29025047/
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:37 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
Um, when something is repeated in multiple media outlets by multiple personalities, it's a bit more than a gaffe.

As I've shown, it happens all the time. Molehill, mountain.
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avent
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:47 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 13):
Quoting avent (Reply 12):
Never heard that one - goes to show the rightwing bias of the mainstream media I suppose.

A picture is worth a thousand words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52WLdiqojOs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8hMJVXt09E&feature=related

Not one of those reporters in that room called her on that figure.

And they should have. But I didn't see that '500M job loss' nonsense pushed and played repeatedly in the media the way the $200M cost for Obama's trip was pushed.

And youtube is not the mainstream media.
 
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:50 pm

This kinda reminds me of the whole "forged Bush military papers" dilemma a few years ago
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:51 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 13):
Not one of those reporters in that room called her on that figure.

I'd have simply asked her "um, Madame Speaker, the latest Census was around 300 million - unless there are more illegals than anyone is letting on, are you misstating the facts??"
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:38 pm

Quoting avent (Reply 15):
And they should have. But I didn't see that '500M job loss' nonsense pushed and played repeatedly in the media the way the $200M cost for Obama's trip was pushed.

Considering you said:

Quoting avent (Reply 11):
Never heard that one

I'm not surprised. But at the time it was played up as much as Rep. Bachmans comment was.

Quoting avent (Reply 15):
And youtube is not the mainstream media.

Youtube is a medium. If you had bothered to watch them they are videos of the Speaker making the comments on both CNN and CSPAN. You would be hard pressed to defend either of them as not being "mainstream" media.

Even more desparing is that the CNN report is a "taped" version of her saying it and the reporter in the shot doesn't even bring up the fact that 500 million is an obvious misstatement.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 17):
I'd have simply asked her "um, Madame Speaker, the latest Census was around 300 million - unless there are more illegals than anyone is letting on, are you misstating the facts??"

You know a little math goes a long way here. If you take the 200 million figure and change the currency to Rupee's that works out to a rounded 4.3 million in U.S. dollars which I'm quite comfortable that the Indian portion of the trip cost given all the support that went along. Per day is another misstatement but since the White House won't release the true figure we'll just never know.

But as I stated, everyone makes these kinds of mistakes at one time or another. You laugh at them and move one.
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:53 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 18):
If you take the 200 million figure and change the currency to Rupee's that works out to a rounded 4.3 million in U.S. dollars which I'm quite comfortable that the Indian portion of the trip cost given all the support that went along.

Yep, just what I said in reply 8   

Quoting dxing (Reply 18):
But as I stated, everyone makes these kinds of mistakes at one time or another

Yep, but as I stated, a little responsibility taken by those talking heads everyone listens to would go a long way toward restoring some truth to discourse.
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:12 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 18):
Youtube is a medium. If you had bothered to watch them they are videos of the Speaker making the comments on both CNN and CSPAN. You would be hard pressed to defend either of them as not being "mainstream" media.

Even more desparing is that the CNN report is a "taped" version of her saying it and the reporter in the shot doesn't even bring up the fact that 500 million is an obvious misstatement.

Indeed, but did CNN or CSPAN talking heads run with the issue and embrace it the way rightwingers embraced and went hysterical over the cost of Obama's trip? Did CNN or MSNBC make it a focal point to push their agenda and defend it?
 
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:29 pm

Quoting avent (Reply 5):
I think journalists should be licensed. Produce crap like that and you get suspended or booted out of the profession. Lawyers, Doctors, Accountants, for example, are bound by professional ethics. Why not journalists...

Exactly. And that includes conservative (and other sides) talking heads on radio and television. Make them report truthfully and actually provide substance to their wild claims.

Maybe then USA politics will move back from the wild-west style it currently has where anything goes.

Now, the lady who spouted this cost message on the CNN show, if I were moderating, I'd have asked her back to explain her costings in detail. It's the only reasonable and right thing to do.

[Edited 2010-11-17 15:32:21]
 
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:12 am

I have a question for the people upset with Obama over the cost of this trip: How much exactly per day did the government (that would be you and I through taxes) spend on Bush and his hand-holding with the Saudi royal family and Bush clearing brush on his ranch in Texas and Bush at fundraisers which only benefited his own party, not the American people at large? Keep in mind that, while in Crawford, he had to have a unit ready at a moment's notice to fly anywhere in the world which means security detail, jet fuel, auto fuel, catering, etc. Yet none of these same people said one word abou that wasteful spending...
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:07 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 19):
Yep, just what I said in reply 8

Yeah, I missed that.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 19):
Yep, but as I stated, a little responsibility taken by those talking heads everyone listens to would go a long way toward restoring some truth to discourse.

That could be said of any professional in any career field on any given day.

Quoting avent (Reply 20):
Indeed, but did CNN or CSPAN talking heads run with the issue and embrace it the way rightwingers embraced and went hysterical over the cost of Obama's trip? Did CNN or MSNBC make it a focal point to push their agenda and defend it?

Don't know, don't watch or listen to them on a daily basis. Does not change the fact that you attributed the reporting to

Quoting avent (Reply 7):
Numbers like the above are very revealing of the toxic dementia that permeates rightwing politics.

whereas I have shown that it is not only "righwing" media that reports factual errors and in some cases ignores blatantly factual errors since the population of the United States isn't even 500 million people to begin with.
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:05 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 23):
Quoting avent (Reply 20):
Indeed, but did CNN or CSPAN talking heads run with the issue and embrace it the way rightwingers embraced and went hysterical over the cost of Obama's trip? Did CNN or MSNBC make it a focal point to push their agenda and defend it?

Don't know, don't watch or listen to them on a daily basis. Does not change the fact that you attributed the reporting to

Quoting avent (Reply 7):
Numbers like the above are very revealing of the toxic dementia that permeates rightwing politics.

whereas I have shown that it is not only "righwing" media that reports factual errors and in some cases ignores blatantly factual errors since the population of the United States isn't even 500 million people to begin with.

Of course it changes the 'fact' if rightwingers deliberately made an issue out of the ridiculous $200M/day cost. CNN and MSNBC did not launch a tirade defending the stimulus because '500M per month would lose their jobs.'         
 
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:34 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 23):
That could be said of any professional in any career field on any given day.


The following simple questions may be answered with Yes or No:

1. Do you think there should be truth in reporting/journalism, even when it goes against your political interests?

2. Or, rather - on the flip side, Is it okay for journalists/radio hosts to be economical with the truth, so long as it suits your side of politics?

[Edited 2010-11-17 20:37:03]
 
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:21 pm

Quoting avent (Reply 24):
Of course it changes the 'fact' if rightwingers deliberately made an issue out of the ridiculous $200M/day cost. CNN and MSNBC did not launch a tirade defending the stimulus because '500M per month would lose their jobs.'

That they "didn't" point out her obvious gaff, even when the CNN report was using tape of her saying it is just as damning as the people you are railing against for using a misquote. But whatever, the point is made and if you don't agree that's your business.

Quoting cpd (Reply 25):
1. Do you think there should be truth in reporting/journalism, even when it goes against your political interests?

Yes.

Quoting cpd (Reply 25):
2. Or, rather - on the flip side, Is it okay for journalists/radio hosts to be economical with the truth, so long as it suits your side of politics?

Journalists no, radio show hosts, yes. Radio show hosts are not bound by journalistic ethics which is why if you take what they say as gospel you are shorting yourself.
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avent
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:37 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 26):
That they "didn't" point out her obvious gaff, even when the CNN report was using tape of her saying it is just as damning as the people you are railing against for using a misquote. But whatever, the point is made and if you don't agree that's your business.



Not at all. There is a world of difference between not pointing out an obvious gaffe, and malevolently propagating disinformation to stir up the boobocracy.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:10 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 26):
Radio show hosts are not bound by journalistic ethics which is why if you take what they say as gospel you are shorting yourself.

Sure, but that's still no excuse for when they willingly put misinformation on the air. A moderate host from the SF Bay Area I listen to regularly put it this way: "In 35 years of radio, I have never intentionally said anything I knew to be untrue or put out secondhand information without saying 'now we might need to check sources on this, but...' ". There's something called integrity - you've either got it, or you don't.
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:42 pm

Quoting avent (Reply 5):
I think journalists should be licensed. Produce crap like that and you get suspended or booted out of the profession. Lawyers, Doctors, Accountants, for example, are bound by professional ethics. Why not journalists...

Ethics don't exist in journalism and haven't for a while. But I agree, mandating ethics in journalism would be nice.

Quoting dxing (Reply 10):
As revealing as the United States losing 500 million jobs a month if we didn't immediately pass the stimulus bill! I forget who said that. People make verbal gaffs all the time. Nothing to see here, move along.

And to top it off, while the American population is 300 million, some 200 million less than what idiot Pelosi quoted, there aren't even close to 300 million Americans working, even if unemployment was at 2%. What a freaking crack head. This is also the same lady who announced in 2007 when she became SOTH, that there would be no more deficit spending. Since Democrats took control, they racked up an impressive $5,000,000,000,000.00 to the deficit.    Why didn't Jon Stewart bring that up in his 'Return to Sanity' mockery?
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:42 pm

The flashy headline makes it seem as if they did not want to extend the benefits

They don't want to extend the benefits, and have repeatedly tried to stop unemployment benefits. And that isn't a matter of opinion, its a matter of record. The Republican caucus remains philosophically opposed to social safety nets and has repeatedly declared that unemployment insurance keeps people unemployed. While this is true for a statistically small number of people, it is not true of the majority of those who receive the benefits. One Republican senate candidate this year actually declared that unemployment benefits were unconstitutional (Joe Miller, Alaska).

The core philosophy is to return to a time before things like Social Security, the Federal Reserve, Unemployment compensation - so that we can supposedly "free ourselves from the government." Except we already lived that way. There aren't too many people alive now who remember it, but in the late 19th century and early 20th century we had scenes in our cities and towns that resemble the kind of thing you see today in third-world slums. Is the world of Jacob Riis (an excellent 19th century photojournalist that today's conservatives could learn alot from) one we want to return to? I don't think so.

Just to keep things in perspective.
 
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:31 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 28):
Sure, but that's still no excuse for when they willingly put misinformation on the air.

Then as I said, CNN and CSPAN are just as guilty. It happens to everyone sooner or later. As a radio talk show host I caught myself making gaffes involving numbers several times which is when I hear someone say:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 28):
"In 35 years of radio

I know they are not being accurate since there is simply no way to go on the air for 35 years and not make some gaffes you didn't catch. From someone who has been there and done that I'm telling you it's impossible.
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:37 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 31):
I know they are not being accurate since there is simply no way to go on the air for 35 years and not make some gaffes you didn't catch. From someone who has been there and done that I'm telling you it's impossible.

It's the hysterical promotion of the absurd number that's at the heart of the issue, not the making of gaffes.

You're just pulling one of your incessant rhetorical tricks in which you pretend to offer reasonable agreement to the wrong issue.



[spelling and punctuation corrected]


[Edited 2010-11-18 15:41:47]
 
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:07 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 31):
I know they are not being accurate since there is simply no way to go on the air for 35 years and not make some gaffes you didn't catch.

Perhaps so but the individual I'm quoting is a several time major market of the year Marconi award winner, including this year's. He's as fair as they come - and corrects himself with regularity. But I believe him when he says he has never intentionally misinformed - as he's constantly saying things like "well I'd have to look into that claim more" or "I don't have the numbers to back it up but that's just my opinion".
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:08 am

I know they are not being accurate since there is simply no way to go on the air for 35 years and not make some gaffes you didn't catch. From someone who has been there and done that I'm telling you it's impossible.

A gaffe is an understandable error. For example when somebody says 500,000,000 instead of 500,000 after long economic briefings or mispronouncing the name of a world leader during a high-pressure, nationally-televised debate. And this shouldn't be held against anybody. We are all human.

But this is not analogous to making an intentional factual error and repeating it. To cite just one prominent example, there are many media pundits who argue that the new Healthcare Reform act provides federal funding for abortions. It does not - and every member of congress and any reasonably informed journalist absolutely knows this. So when you see people repeat this outright lie, you should automatically be able to filter it from the realm of "that's just an accidental gaffe." A significant chunk of the American public actually believes this, because they hear it from the news and they hear it from elected officials. It is not a gaffe. And it is not true. There is a very strict and very specific prohibition on using any federal funds to fund abortion and it's been in effect for a long time.
 
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:45 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 33):
He's as fair as they come - and corrects himself with regularity

Don't doubt it. I don't doubt my statement that over his 35 years he has made misstatements. I'm also sure that he has had to go back and correct himself and has, but that does not change the fact he actually made the misstatement to begin with. Again, molehill=mountain. And it happes on both sides of the political spectrum.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 34):
But this is not analogous to making an intentional factual error and repeating it.

CNN repeated it several times, and it was a taped report. It happens.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 34):
To cite just one prominent example, there are many media pundits who argue that the new Healthcare Reform act provides federal funding for abortions. It does not -

I guess that depends on how you look at the language. The specific "federal funds will pay for abortions" is not there, but the language of the law allows for plans that allow the federal government in a third party role to pay for them.
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RE: Bad Journalism: Obama India Trip Cost Lies

Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:27 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 35):
Again, molehill=mountain.

No it wasn't, and this is yet another clumsy attempt on your part to change the issue.

To say one is making a molehill out of a mountain implies there is only a difference of degree. This is not at all the case here; it was not an issue of a gaffe/error being comparable with another, but rather that of lunatic rightwing talking heads getting hysterical over an obviously absurd report.

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