NorthstarBoy
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Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:08 am

It never seems to fail, every time i read a thread in civ av about airlines and unions people seem to come out spouting piss, vinegar and hatred towards unions. It's something i see all the time, but honestly, it's something i really don't get. As someone who sees enormous benefits in unions, I'm curious why others are so dead set against them. I have my own suspicions, but I'll set them aside for now.

So, do you hate the unions? if so, why?
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offloaded
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:34 am

I don't "hate" unions, but I've been the "non union" guy in a "union" shop. The union did a great job of protecting the lazy and incompetent workers we had, ensured that even the broom pushers were receiving a totally unrealistic wage for their efforts. Our labour rates were therefore sky high, and we were getting undercut by non-union companies. The union refused to budge, and the company shut down operation completely in that province.
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flanker
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:39 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):

So, do you hate the unions? if so, why?

Offloaded answered your Q

Quoting offloaded (Reply 1):

I don't "hate" unions, but I've been the "non union" guy in a "union" shop. The union did a great job of protecting the lazy and incompetent workers we had, ensured that even the broom pushers were receiving a totally unrealistic wage for their efforts. Our labour rates were therefore sky high, and we were getting undercut by non-union companies. The union refused to budge, and the company shut down operation completely in that province.

Precisely!! I am not a fan of unions for this reason. It would be a great step forward if unions competed between each other for the business of companies and really stopped protecting and rewarding incompetence.
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LAXintl
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:58 am

I’ll take a crack at this.

I’ll focus on comments about the airline industry strictly, and not broader context of unions in society.

To me unions in the airline industry whether in the US, the UK, or many other nations have simply lost touch with reality and have served or become major roadblocks at companies.

Unions sadly have played significant complicity in the destruction of many airlines, and ultimate resultant losses both financially to investors, and also to the workforce at companies that have undergone traumatic reorganization in bankruptcy for example, or died completely.

So I think until the time unions realize that the industry is now living in the new 21st century economy, and not mid 20th century blue collar utopia. Today business must move very fast to serve globally connected markets and ultimately the success a business is very much reliant on being able to be the most efficient producer of transportation. No longer are competitors protected nicely inside national silos but today must compete on a global basis.
In more and more cases it gets ever harder to support many of the shackles (pay, benefits, work rules) that unions have in place on companies. I truly shake my head often at the cost of employing folks in positions that outside the industry are nothing more than barely minimum wage, high school education jobs, but at airlines people manage six figure salaries for.

So I guess at some point, a light bulb needs to go off, and unions hopefully can reinvent themselves as a better fit what is a cut-throat global airline operating environment, and maybe cooperatively work hand in hand with their airlines to help them succeed, grow and prosper instead continuously trying to be stuck on to the past.
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EA CO AS
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:05 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
I'm curious why others are so dead set against them

Having been part of a union and now part of management, I obviously have seen both aspects of the union/non-union argument, and while unions had their day when people needed to fight for better work conditions, overtime pay, safety standards, etc, those things are now provided under Federal Law, and no employer would or could dream of rescinding those things.

However, today another aspect of the union equation - work rules, wages and benefits - have created something of an unrealistic entitlement mentality among many of those who work under a union, where many unionized employees seem to believe they're to be forever granted ever-increasing pay and benefits, regardless of changing economic realities, competition, or just the normal business cycle.

It's that belief that economic reality applies to other people, not them, that makes many people dislike unions.

And yes, there's also the perception among many hardworking, dues-paying members that the only thing their union does is protect the jobs of the incompetent, the slackers, and those who refuse to live up to the work standards the rest of the employees do. This is usually because the CBAs typically include language regarding progressive steps of discipline, time limits for them, and how they can and cannot be administered by management.

Obviously these employees don't always know that management does in fact coach and counsel those underperformers and eventually does discharge them for performance issues once enough has been documented, but the reality is that in many cases the time it takes to build a case where a dismissal cannot be overturned in a grievance hearing takes a lot of time and gives good workers the impression that the union is protecting these non-performers.
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cpd
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:09 am

I'm not anti-union. While I've never needed to use their services personally, they did swing into action very quickly to demand restoration of leave entitlements that were wrongfully removed from many staff due to an error. For me, it was only a few days - but still, that's my entitlements - as a part of the agreed package I signed up for when I started. For other people, it might have been far more days that they lost.

If it hadn't been for them, it would have been a long and tiresome battle to get those back.

The union in my line of work isn't particularly aggressive - it achieves outcomes through negotiation.
 
lhr380
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:11 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
To me unions in the airline industry whether in the US, the UK, or many other nations have simply lost touch with reality and have served or become major roadblocks at companies.

Agree 100%.

Look at Unite, and the number of strikes and ballots they have held in the UK this year, at points they seemed to be trying to get about 10 or 20 companies to strike. Now they have a new Militant leader, I can only see things getting worse in 2011
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thegreatRDU
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:36 pm

Unions are fading further into oblivion...
Thanks to unions we enjoy five day work weeks, overtime, etc. But it's 2010 and everybody get's that regardless....
But when you let them go crazy you have Chrysler, Mexicana, California government workers etc...management or spineless politicians are just as much to blame too....
They also seem to have this us against them mentality and sense of entitlement regardless of the siutuation especially the public sector unions.....
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swissy
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:06 pm

Why?

There was a time for it... however the unions are stuck and still do not see the light, the world is turning whatever they like it or not, they lost a tremendous amount of jobs to the far east, there is very little accountability for their action towards saving/destroying local jobs... have not seen any unions saving jobs... no creativity and common sense, but then again a union is only as strong as their members... so I guess it is not a union problem more a "member" problem...

Have attended way too many contract negotiation in the past... still cannot get my head around where these people come up with these ideas based on the past...

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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:17 pm

Local and true story.

The county is facing a budget gap, so the county administrators went to the departments and asked all of them to agree to a pay freeze. EVERY department agreed, except for the police/sheriffs department. The union strenuously objected.

For the past few years the police had a promised 5% annual pay increase, under their contract with the county. The union rejected the freeze and demanded the promised 5% increase.

So the county agreed to the pay increase and found their cost savings by laying off some 20+ cops. F'ing retarded.

Want to know why unions are hated? Because they're led by corrupt and greedy leadership. How much do the union bosses of some of these major unions make? Auto workers? aviation? Steel/ heavy industry? They're not team players, they're not interested in the collective well being. They jealously guard 'what they feel is theres', like a crazed broad at the site of a 90% shoe sale.
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F9Animal
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:25 pm

Union power! Unions are needed in the airline industry. Otherwise, the corporate morons would be paying everyone minimum wage, if that. If they could work you for free, they would.
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falstaff
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:33 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 1):
I don't "hate" unions, but I've been the "non union" guy in a "union" shop.

I am that guy right now. I find the union to be stuck in the past. Our union (the NEA) seems to think that teachers are better than other types of workers. I hate the senority list crap. I have seen good teachers layed off and teachers who were once great, but lost it, still on the payroll only because they were on the job longer.

I find it laughable when our union talks about valuing different opinions. When somebody disagrees with them they are shunned and bullied into participating in the union's activities.

I also don't like unions bizzare devotion to democrats, regardless of what is right. Recently a 20 plus year teacher and president of an NEA local ran for congress on the Republican ticket. I know the guy and he is far from anti union. He approached the NEA about backing him for congress. He was told he was the wrong party and that they would endorse the democrat because they always have, even if he had not done anything for them lately. When a union doesn't back somebody in their own leadership who is running for office because he is the wrong party they surely aren't going to get my support.

Our union also backed Obama and the union magazine told us all many wonderful reasons to vote for him. None of his ideas for education were included in the magazine. After he was elected his ideas for education have came out and they go against what the union believes. I actually agree with Obama on a lot of his education agenda. Maybe the union should have done their homework and not endorsed him, but they "had to" because he was a democrat.

I don't like unions because they tell me what to think, how to act, and what to do, all while charging me $980 a year. My employer tells me how to act and what to do, but not how to think and they pay me....
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:33 pm

Quoting flanker (Reply 2):
It would be a great step forward if unions competed between each other for the business of companies and really stopped protecting and rewarding incompetence.

This goes with my belief that unions should transform themselves into contract labor agencies.
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:44 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 1):
ensured that even the broom pushers were receiving a totally unrealistic wage for their efforts.

...and people wonder why jobs are moving offshore. Americans priced themselves out of the market.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 4):
However, today another aspect of the union equation - work rules, wages and benefits - have created something of an unrealistic entitlement mentality among many of those who work under a union, where many unionized employees seem to believe they're to be forever granted ever-increasing pay and benefits, regardless of changing economic realities, competition, or just the normal business cycle.

I've noticed that too. It seems that some employees feel the company exists for their benefit.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 11):
I hate the senority list crap.

I don't understand why people think they should be paid more just for being around longer. They should be paid more for performing better, having more responsibility, or having more skills which can all be gained partially through experience. But paying somebody more for just filling a chair longer than the guy next to him is dumb.
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:41 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
Union power! Unions are needed in the airline industry. Otherwise, the corporate morons would be paying everyone minimum wage, if that. If they could work you for free, they would.

Way to be "that guy"
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LAXintl
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:08 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
the corporate morons would be paying everyone minimum wage, if that. If they could work you for free, they would.

And maybe, many of those jobs are only worth minimum wage?

In all seriousness, labor agreement artificially stratify pay rates regardless of their true actual demand or value. Labor agreements might hold down pay on newcomers, or for certain positions while grossly overpaying for others.

In a free economy and one without fixed labor agreements, pay would would be dynamic and be based on simple supply and demand rules. Each job and person would would have a value attached to it.
As an example cabin cleaner might only be worth $8/hr instead of the contract $18/hr labor rate, while that new FA might start at $28,000/yr instead of contract $18,000/yr.

Looking at things from a business sense, its amazing how airlines must compete or die based on pure and mean market forces on the outside, but internally they have hamstrung by all types of rules and things like CBA's that live in their own world without much flexibility, or relations with exterior reality.
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4holer
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:17 pm

Short answer to OPs question: Eyes. Ears. Brains.

Long answer involves my growing up in Pittsburgh in the 70s and 80s combined with personal experience as a Union member, topped off with a delightful cherry of observations.
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:36 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
Union power! Unions are needed in the airline industry. Otherwise, the corporate morons would be paying everyone minimum wage, if that. If they could work you for free, they would.

Only because people of your mentality don't have the intestinal fortitude to not take a job for minimum wage or less, or quit a job when the company lowers pay to that point. The pro-union crowd likes to talk about how without a union pay would be awful, but never once have I seen a union speak about personal responsibility.

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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:40 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 18):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 21):

Sorry, but I have to agree with 777236ER. I fall right into his descriptions and I don't feel like he called me a "poor hating person."
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AGM100
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:40 pm

The big picture .... Unions are the tool to destroy capitalism . Marx wanted outright revolution to over throw capitalism ...other's knew better and understood unions would do the job in the end.

Its a shame because I understand the important role employee unions (could) play to help workers. The problem is the organization and members of the unions are too valuable of a political prize to be manipulated. And in my opinion ..all major unions lean left and will always support social democrats. When we see Unions like SEIU ..who are intensely politically active and intensely left wing meeting with the President of the US on a regular basis ... it is worrisome. Not to mention that Trumka AFLCIO goon... jeezuz the guy looks like a politburo boss from the soviet union and sounds like one too. They are the enemy within ... and I am afraid they will eventually win (or have won)... "workers of the world unite"...
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Tugger
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:27 pm

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 7):
They also seem to have this us against them mentality and sense of entitlement regardless of the siutuation especially the public sector unions.....

Public employee unions should not be allowed. They essentially get to vote twice and game the process. They should be banned.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
Union power! Unions are needed in the airline industry. Otherwise, the corporate morons would be paying everyone minimum wage, if that.

You are wrong and you certainly have nothing to point to to demonstrate your point as being true. Delta is mostly non-union and yet it's employees are not all paid minimum wage. Even that bottom feeder corporation called Walmart does not pay all it's employee's minimum wage. Most companies are nonunion and yet most people do not earn minimum wage. Most companies pay more to people who do the job better, have more skills, and/or have more experience on which to draw (shorter training time required, faster learning curve, likely less prone to errors due to knowledge gained from do the job), etc.

I have always pointed out the problem of the "seniority trap" that exists in airlines (even though this thread is not only just talking about airlines). Normally an employee who is dissatisfied with their job can go and seek another job, one that will provide equal or better pay, better work environment, and/or a better chance for advancement based on their level of skill and experience. But in the airline industry the employees are generally trapped by seniority. The protection a union provides is such that if they ever leave their job they are forced to start at the bottom of the next job/union. Funny thing is most union employee's can't comprehend this, they are too stuck on "their seniority".

Instead of being free to apply to the better airline they are stuck. And instead of a better airline being rewarded with better employees, they are also stuck (in general, there are some exceptions) with getting the lowest time employees, the ones who are willing to leave their jobs because they have little to lose. Normally in the free market a poorly run business will lose its best employees to the well run company but in the airline industry poorly managed airlines can survive and drag on for years because the employees can't leave. And the union employees are stuck in the failing airline having to depend on management to figure out how to save the airline. Management they already don't seem to trust.

Tugg
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bhill
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:34 pm

For me, it's not a matter of hate, dislike, etc; but one of pity. Unions remind me of the Communist Party..everyone has to be the same and you cannot advance on your own merits. To attempt to stand out for higher pay or any other recognition on an individuals' accomplisments would be anathema and you would pobably be labeled a "corporate lackey"...besides, if you feel that the "morons" in management treat you poorly, go elseware, don't coerece the company into bankruptcy.
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cpd
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:52 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 21):
To attempt to stand out for higher pay or any other recognition on an individuals' accomplisments would be anathema and you would pobably be labeled a "corporate lackey"...

that doesn't happen everywhere. We have pay brackets, you start at one level, and progress based on merit to the highest level of a few years. If you want to get paid more, you apply for a higher graded job.

Don't see what is so dramatically different to the corporate world. In fact, those very anti-union corporate people (who you idolise) are probably earning more than I do. So much for them taking low pay for the good of the their company....
 
777236ER
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:18 pm

The reason Airliners.net is anti union is because of it's demographic. The majority of it's users are from North America and western Europe, therefore are relatively affluent and white. The trip reports section indicates a middle and upper class demographic. The population is overwhelmingly male, and quite young.

The evidence suggests that this group is quite well off, with a good income and secure jobs. Hence, they do not benefit from typical unions.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incom...e_United_States?wasRedirected=true
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avent
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:45 pm

For every anti-union rant there is an anti-management equivalent... Unions protect the lazy? Well management looks after its own just as often. Unions drive up costs? Look at the gluttons who wrecked the economy - how about those costs?

Can unions be corrupt? Absolutley. Can corporations and management be corrupt? Absolutely.

Can unions be responsible? Absolutely. Can management be responsible? Absolutely.

If you think you're better served by management protecting it's investment through minimizing wage increases or through laying you or your colleagues off - then be anti-union.

If you'd like some protection against an incompetent and gluttonous management that will fire you because your hard earned wage increases are seen as being something they can better direct at their profit margins to hide their incompetence - then be anti-union. If you think when you get to your fifties the managers can fire you so they can hire younger kids with reduced health costs - then be anti-union.

It's quite simple really.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:21 am

I am anti union because i don't think they are needed and just hurt companies. Back in the day they were needed. Work conditions were awful and people didn't get paid anything. But now the government regulates everything so they aren't needed. Plus the point of a business is to make money and they just make it tough to make money. Not to mention they help the lazy man while the rest of us pick up the slack.
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All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
 
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cpd
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:38 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 25):
they help the lazy man while the rest of us pick up the slack.

Rubbish. I can think of hard working management that are also union members - and they worked very hard, more than a non-union person might have done in the situation.. And didn't ask for overtime pay despite the long hours.

This statement above that you've made is just not true and you know it. For me, I'm not that interested in more money - I'm happy with what I'm paid - and I'm in it for a better cause than just the money.

How many of you people who are strongly anti-union are dedicated to your work, for reasons other than the fact that it pays the bills??

[Edited 2010-11-23 16:41:33]
 
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falstaff
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:39 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
But paying somebody more for just filling a chair longer than the guy next to him is dumb.


That pisses me off too. I have the same education and same job responsibilities as everyone at work with my job classification, but they are paid twice my salary only because they have done it longer. Not everyone is paid double. It takes ten years to get to the top of the pay scale, but that is only if the union contract allows it. It seems that they vote to freeze the "step wages", while securing a small raise for the top of the scale. For each freeze in the step wage adds one more year before you reach you ten year top out. There are several people who have been around for longer than ten years but still aren't to the top of the scale. The maxed out people always worry that their wages will be cut but don't worry too much about the people who are not at the top of the scale yet. They always say "you are at the top longer than you are at the bottom". There are a lot more top scale people than lower scale people and they will always vote for the contract that protects their wages.... They say it is all about the entire union membership, but it isn't. They are just as greedy as they say the management is.
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PPVRA
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:50 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 22):
We have pay brackets, you start at one level, and progress based on merit to the highest level of a few years. If you want to get paid more, you apply for a higher graded job.

Why do you have pay brackets within the same job? I mean, I can see if it's an entry-level bracket, then an experienced bracket. But if you're doing essentially the same thing for the rest of your life, why should you expect a pay raise?

No company is guaranteed to make more money just because it gets old. Especially if it's doing nothing different.
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wn700driver
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:57 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 4):
while unions had their day when people needed to fight for better work conditions, overtime pay, safety standards, etc, those things are now provided under Federal Law, and no employer would or could dream of rescinding those things.

I disagree. I recently fired a manager at my place of employment, over several crew scheduling transgressions and for her failure to ensure a safe enough workplace (I feel fortunate that there were no resulting accidents, as this easily could have terminated that particular contract...) While she was an exception, there are people who (despite warnings) will cut corners.

Ironically though, had she been a unionized "strawboss," which she would have been had our company been unionized, I wouldn't been able to get rid of her so easily!

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 4):
This is usually because the CBAs typically include language regarding progressive steps of discipline, time limits for them, and how they can and cannot be administered by management.

That they do. But even in the little company where I work, we have several procedural steps that must be satisfied before we can terminate any employee. And that's in Texas!

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
Union power! Unions are needed in the airline industry. Otherwise, the corporate morons would be paying everyone minimum wage, if that. If they could work you for free, they would.


I disagree with this too. Where I work, it is an absolute must (again partly because we are a small company...) to promote an atmosphere where people feel that they are well compensated, and as importantly, that they want to show up at. The Station Manager I replaced, for example, had a very high turnover rate, and often failed to complete shifts, owing to employees showing up late pretty much every shift.

Now where I work, you can't write someone up with out everyone and their dog knowing about it ten minutes later, so exceptionally harsh discipline really won't work out. He didn't seem to understand this, and as a result, he got quit about thrice a month on average. Upon review, I also noticed that he was paying our apprentices an absurdly low wage (not minimum, but uncomfortably close...) These issues were resolved shortly after his termination, and oddly enough, about 80% of our problems WRT personnel have disappeared. This process undoubtedly would have taken longer in a unionized environment, of course.

Nevertheless, my point is that even in a small non-union operation, you still can't just do what ever you want. Try it, and you will get quit, and likely find yourself answering some uncomfortable questions about P&L and productivity issues... Just my $.02...
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vikkyvik
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:43 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 26):

How many of you people who are strongly anti-union are dedicated to your work, for reasons other than the fact that it pays the bills??

Why does that matter? My reasons for going to work may be different than yours, but that doesn't make them any less valid.

Besides, face it: the majority of people (I'd wager) do not feel any particular affinity for their jobs.

Even if I am just at my job for the money, doesn't it make sense that I'd be damn sure I did a good job, since I'm not in a union? I might get fired, or have my pay reduced, or whatever, whereas with a union, I'd have some protection.
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cpd
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:57 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
Why do you have pay brackets within the same job? I mean, I can see if it's an entry-level bracket, then an experienced bracket

It increments after a few years to the maximum level. It's like an experience/performance thing. When you reach the highest level, that's the limit - pay doesn't go higher.

If you want more pay, you apply for another position that is higher graded. Say if you were a 7/8, you'd apply for a 9/10 - where you start off at maybe a Min 9, then after a year, if performance is okay, increment to a max 9, and then after another year, to min 10, then max 10 - which is the top level. But it is all performance based. A Max 10 would be around $100,000 a year. But that's essentially one level below a management position - and someone at that level would become an acting manager the moment the actual manager goes on leave. Someone in the corporate non-union world would probably make double or triple that money for the same responsibility, so that blows out of the water all the arguments above about union people making more money.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 30):
Why does that matter?

Because, you've all been heavily criticising the unionised workers as being hugely greedy and only in it for the money - and I'm giving you a great example of one who isn't, that's why it matters.

If anything, I'd suggest that mentality where some of you are suggesting, if you don't like it, work elsewhere is incredibly greedy and selfish, especially towards the company who offered you that job. After all, they have to spend all that money to find someone to replace you when you just get up and leave...

[Edited 2010-11-23 17:58:55]

[Edited 2010-11-23 18:00:33]

[Edited 2010-11-23 18:02:32]
 
Kent350787
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:05 am

OK cpd, where in the NSW public sector are you?  

I've been "management" for most of my career, in roles where union negotiation is a regular activity, and where union issues can be a real annoyance to getting things done.

That said, I'm also a union member and, although I have my disagreements with the union executive, I think it's very worthwhile to have backup and a collective voice. Mind you, my union backs non-management members against management members in 99.9% of cases.....
 
charlienorth
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:42 am

Been in 4 different unions and I have worked as a manager, I'm not crazy about the "union attitude" but I also do not care for a lot of views I see on this site, frankly any people on this site have never really worked for a living and still are in school or in a safe protected world and only get their opinions from limited sources and believe only what they are fed. Big business would only pay minimum wage if there weren't unions out there, they do not do it out of the "goodness of their hearts" would you? There seems to be a tone here that believes union rules and wages are what's keeping them from seeing grandma across the country for $39. It also is not as hard to terminate a union person as people think, if a manager builds a good case it is very simple and I've observed it from both sides.

Lastly, in the airline biz union representation is important for those of us who hold F.A.A. issued certificates, the union does provide protection in a case of certificate action.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:49 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 29):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 4):
while unions had their day when people needed to fight for better work conditions, overtime pay, safety standards, etc, those things are now provided under Federal Law, and no employer would or could dream of rescinding those things.

I disagree. I recently fired a manager at my place of employment, over several crew scheduling transgressions and for her failure to ensure a safe enough workplace

Yes, but as you said - why did you fire this manager? Because they failed to live up to their obligations to meet standards established under the law, that's why.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 29):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 4):
This is usually because the CBAs typically include language regarding progressive steps of discipline, time limits for them, and how they can and cannot be administered by management.


That they do. But even in the little company where I work, we have several procedural steps that must be satisfied before we can terminate any employee. And that's in Texas!

True, but that's the case anywhere - anyone in employment law will tell you there's a huge difference between "just cause" and "just 'cuz" when it comes to disciplinary action and/or termination. But where unions make things difficult are with things like establishing time limits, etc. Should a manager REALLY be unable to issue disciplinary action to someone because there's a 20 day limit in which you can take action, and on day 21 you have to act like the problem never happened? Of course not.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
nwadeicer
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:16 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 34):
Should a manager REALLY be unable to issue disciplinary action to someone because there's a 20 day limit in which you can take action, and on day 21 you have to act like the problem never happened? Of course not.

Why would it take 20 days to discipline an employee?

[Edited 2010-11-23 19:17:28]
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vikkyvik
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:25 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 31):
Because, you've all been heavily criticising the unionised workers as being hugely greedy and only in it for the money - and I'm giving you a great example of one who isn't, that's why it matters.

Well, to be fair, I hadn't participated in the discussion up to that point (though I had read it all).

I don't think union workers are any more or less greedy than their non-union counterparts - people are people. But work is work - you do a specified task, you help the company and the company's customers by doing said task, and you get paid for it. Whether or not you truly believe in your work (or even like your work) or not does not necessarily matter. In that situation, you can either suck it up and do your work, or you can find something better.....Whether you're union or not.

Quoting cpd (Reply 31):
If anything, I'd suggest that mentality where some of you are suggesting, if you don't like it, work elsewhere is incredibly greedy and selfish, especially towards the company who offered you that job. After all, they have to spend all that money to find someone to replace you when you just get up and leave...

For me personally, if I don't like a job, it's generally very much because of the company environment. My feeling is, if they are not willing to provide a good working environment with happy employees, then I certainly don't owe them anything. And I owe it to myself to find somewhere where I will be happy, given that I have to spend 8+ hours a day there. I don't view that as selfish at all.

In the same vein, if a company isn't happy with a particular employee, they are free to let them go.

Besides, based on my experience, happy employees tend to make better employees. I've worked at places where the company doesn't have much interest in keeping their employees happy, and hence, you get large turnover. I don't blame the employees for leaving a place where they aren't happy.

Quoting charlienorth (Reply 33):
I'm not crazy about the "union attitude" but I also do not care for a lot of views I see on this site, frankly any people on this site have never really worked for a living and still are in school or in a safe protected world and only get their opinions from limited sources and believe only what they are fed.

Ha! What a gross (and grossly incorrect) generalization!

Worth pointing out that you're on this site as well....so I guess you've never worked for a living, etc.?
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:08 am

Quoting NWAdeicer (Reply 35):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 34):
Should a manager REALLY be unable to issue disciplinary action to someone because there's a 20 day limit in which you can take action, and on day 21 you have to act like the problem never happened? Of course not.

Why would it take 20 days to discipline an employee?

Ideally it shouldn't, but there are times when investigating the problem can take time, not to mention other things that can occur that can take precedence. I've personally only missed time limits once (due to a meeting out of town, followed by my own illness) but again, why should someone get a free pass just based on a technicality?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
nwadeicer
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:25 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 37):
Ideally it shouldn't, but there are times when investigating the problem can take time, not to mention other things that can occur that can take precedence. I've personally only missed time limits once (due to a meeting out of town, followed by my own illness) but again, why should someone get a free pass just based on a technicality?

I've got an uncle who is a Homicide Investigator for the St. Paul Police Dept. He's solved homicides quicker. I'm sure there are more than just a couple managers at AS. Didn't the mgmt team at AS agree to this during contract talks? So who's to blame? As far as the technicality issue, shouldn't have agreed to that during contract negotiations. Maybe you should have handed the investigation off to another manager if it was that important and you were busy. Why should someone have to wait while you are preoccupied. Do you feel the same way if a murder suspect got off on a technicality?
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:41 am

Quoting NWAdeicer (Reply 38):
I've got an uncle who is a Homicide Investigator for the St. Paul Police Dept. He's solved homicides quicker.

Goody for him. Unfortunately, complex workplace situations can sometimes involve more in-depth investigations than a homicide.

Quoting NWAdeicer (Reply 38):
Didn't the mgmt team at AS agree to this during contract talks?

Yes. A better question is, who insisted on it? It certainly wasn't the management team.

Quoting NWAdeicer (Reply 38):
As far as the technicality issue, shouldn't have agreed to that during contract negotiations

Or maybe the IAM shouldn't have proposed it.

Quoting NWAdeicer (Reply 38):
Why should someone have to wait while you are preoccupied. Do you feel the same way if a murder suspect got off on a technicality?

Generally it's the actual investigation itself that takes a long period of time, not outside factors. So you're saying you believe it's better to rush through an investigation just to get it done rather than be thorough and weigh all the evidence before issuing discipline?

[Edited 2010-11-23 21:24:20]
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
charlienorth
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:18 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 36):
frankly any people
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 36):
Ha! What a gross (and grossly incorrect) generalization!

Do'h ..too many
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:22 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
So, do you hate the unions? if so, why?

Yes. Their greed has unequivocally robbed a once great American airline industry of every ounce of glamor it ever had. Poor management has only been icing on the cake.

Quoting NWAdeicer (Reply 38):
As far as the technicality issue, shouldn't have agreed to that during contract negotiations

Quite sure that's something IAM would have wanted.

Quoting NWAdeicer (Reply 38):
I've got an uncle who is a Homicide Investigator for the St. Paul Police Dept

Whoop-dee-doo what does that have to do with the airline business  
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
BMI727
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:29 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 27):
I have the same education and same job responsibilities as everyone at work with my job classification, but they are paid twice my salary only because they have done it longer.

The only reason one should be paid more is for more performance. Especially in the case of teachers, it seems that unions are helping to keep subpar teachers in classrooms.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
Why do you have pay brackets within the same job?

Well it would be justified if one person is better at the job than another. Of course, that is not the same thing as doing it longer.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
nwadeicer
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:35 pm

I appreciate the debate but would rather end it. My apologies to both EA CO AS and Aaron747.

[Edited 2010-11-24 06:08:44]
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:43 pm

My problem with unions is the European folklore of unions acting as an extended hand of socialist/communist parties and their efforts to play big politics while not being elected by anyone, not being accountable to anyone yet they believe they should be consulted on issues way beyond their "job description" like taxes, pension reform, health care or even defense.
On the other hand employees over here are spared of the institutionalized union bullying, mob tactics and coercion in the form of "union shops".
 
nwadeicer
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:59 pm

EA CO AS and Aaron 747 you both have PM's.

Tried to PM you EA CO AS but cannot for some reason. Please PM me when you can.

[Edited 2010-11-24 06:05:01]
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thegreatRDU
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:27 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
Union power! Unions are needed in the airline industry. Otherwise, the corporate morons would be paying everyone minimum wage, if that. If they could work you for free, they would.

Well that's good to know....

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 9):

So the county agreed to the pay increase and found their cost savings by laying off some 20 cops. F'ing retarded.

Want to know why unions are hated? Because they're led by corrupt and greedy leadership. How much do the union bosses of some of these major unions make? Auto workers? aviation? Steel/ heavy industry? They're not team players, they're not interested in the collective well being. They jealously guard 'what they feel is theres', like a crazed broad at the site of a 90% shoe sale.

Amen

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
Quoting offloaded (Reply 1):
ensured that even the broom pushers were receiving a totally unrealistic wage for their efforts.

...and people wonder why jobs are moving offshore. Americans priced themselves out of the market.

Absolutely.....that's a big one....paying ridiculous wages for menial labor...

Quoting NWAdeicer (Reply 38):
Didn't the mgmt team at AS agree to this during contract talks? So who's to blame?

It takes 2 to tango....
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474218
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:32 pm

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
So, do you hate the unions? if so, why?


I don't hate unions, I was even in one for about seven years. Unions are fine for people that value job security more than advancement. Working in a union you will never be paid for your individual ideas/skills/dedication you just do the job assigned.

When I got out of the union into a job where I was allowed show my skills and dedication I advanced in the company. Better jobs, more responsibility, more prestige and more pay. The company asked for and listen to my suggestions, I wasn't just a worker anymore but and employee.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:41 pm

I'm pretty happy not being in a union, at my workplace unionised employee's got a maximum 3% pay rise this year, I got 6%. Strange but in Norway they even have a union for us white collar guys.

The only time I've ever been in a union was when I worked in a supermarket as a kid, we went on strike for 2 weeks and I didn't get paid, as soon as NZ dropped compulsory unionism I left, the next time they went on strike I kept working, I picked up some extra shifts, laughed all the way to the bank, plus I also received the same pay rise as the union people.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:23 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 48):
The only time I've ever been in a union was when I worked in a supermarket as a kid

I worked at a supermarket when I was 16. I actually left McDonalds because I thought it would be better. I was forced to joint the union, but I could not get any union benefits until I was 18. That made me mad because I still had to pay the dues. I quit that job after two weeks and went back to McDonalds. My boss at McD's didn't even take my employee info and ID out of the computer. She said she knew I would be back...
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