ltbewr
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What Do Terrorists Want?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:33 pm

For many years, we have seen many acts and attempted acts of terrorism, especially from groups and persons in the mainly Islamic Middle East and other areas. Many of these acts have been in Europe, some in the USA, others in places as diverse as the Philippines, Indonesia, India and so on, attacking or using airliners as part of their plans, attacking hotels, public transit, buildings of 'western' businesses and diplomatic facilities.

My issues is this: What do they want? What are their goals? Do they think they can win? Far too often in their statements, they seem to give the vaguest statements like to make the west convert to Islam, to support the demise of Israel, against local leaders, western cultural ideas like treating women with dignity and so on. Is it revenge against the USA's Cold War and post-Cold War policy for too long against and in some cases forcing, revenge by murder to put in leaders friendly to us, but often horrible to some ethnic and religious minority. In some cases, states like Syria and Libya have sponsored or otherwise supported or supplied critical materials for terror actors to seek revenge against the USA/Europe for their support of Israel and military/missile attacks on them. For the individuals, perhaps they seek adventure from their miserable lives, or get the '72 Virgins' or some silly to us personal gain. Is it our attempted military occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan or support of unpopular and corrupt leaders like the Saud family of Saudi Arabia.

Let use see some of they thoughts on reasons and perhaps reasonable ways to remove these reasons.
 
ajd1992
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:34 pm

To kill people in the name of their God, which to them makes it OK to do.

Not much else to it really.
 
signol
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:00 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):
To kill people in the name of their God, which to them makes it OK to do.

  

The terrorists want something specific, usually they areupset about a perceived injustice. Often the support of Israel, or the invasion of Afganistan / Iraq. Occasionally, people are more against the Western, capitalist way of life, so rather than aim to kill all westerners, the aim is to "convert" people to their religion / cause.

signol
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PanHAM
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:12 pm

Same what the communists, the nazis, the conquistadores and any other religious / political movements tried to do.

Conquer the world and have all people bow to their ideology. Such an ideology always is against the individual rights and forces their followers into a totalitarian regime. It has never worked and it will never work. Freedom, individual and freedom of societies will always win.

Whatever reason is given by terrorists, perceived injustice, Israel, our western way of life, eall reasons given are utter rubbish and unjustified. The terrorists, their followers and sympathizers are a bunch of hostile, intolerant criminals, nothing else..
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Superfly
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:23 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):

The terrorist have made it very clear what they want.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
the nazis

Doubt the Nazi's wanted to turn Africa & Asia in to Aryan people.
From what I read, he only invaded northern Africa to be able to invade Italy and was meant to be a staging point only.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
The terrorists, their followers and sympathizers are a bunch of hostile, intolerant criminals, nothing else..

        
Well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   
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PanHAM
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:41 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
Doubt the Nazi's wanted to turn Africa & Asia in to Aryan people.

Did I mention that anywhere? But picking up your line, no, certainly not Aryan people but slaves and territory that culd be exploited.

The individual tasks may vary in detail but the goal is always the same, supremacy of the own ideology and terrorizing everyone who does not comply. The islamists hate individual freedom, they hate the western way of life and they do everything to send the society back into the times before enlightenment, before civil rights and that can be pinpointed pretty much to the times before Martin Luther.
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Superfly
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:52 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
Did I mention that anywhere?

Relax.
Just wanted some clarity.
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fr8mech
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:30 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):
To kill people in the name of their God, which to them makes it OK to do.

The terrorist leaders use religion as a tool to recruit and enrage their followers. It is more a means to their goal, than their goal.

Terrorism is always political. Regardless of what the stated cause is, the ultimate 'destination' is some form of change where the terrorists' ideology(ies) is forced upon their victims.
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777236ER
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:37 pm

No two people want the same thing, how can you say something as diverse as 'Al-Qaeda', let alone all Islamic terrorists, have anywhere near the same agenda?

Then again, the real terrorists are the ones who support destroying our freedoms and liberties in the name of 'security'.

[Edited 2010-11-23 10:42:36]
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akiss20
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:50 pm

I highly recommend you try reading "Three Cups of Tea" it is very informative of what life is actually like in the Central Asia area (Pakistan, Afghanistan etc) and the roots of our current situation. I am finishing it up now and it is excellent.
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
 
Derico
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:05 pm

I have a thought that as with everything, the more time passes the more the original purpose of something gets lost into a completely vague identity.

Modern terrorism in the name of ''Islam'' began as a reaction to decades of harrasment and meddling by the West of Arabs nations, from Iraq to Iran, to Palestine and Saudi Arabia, and on and on.

The West needs to own up to that fact.

Now, I feel it's more just a way of life for many because the underlying reasons were never adressed quickly enough to stop it from becoming an entrenched lifestyle. They may put of a good game that they do what they do for specific reasons (Holy land conflict, etc), but I really think many do it just because it is a way out of misery or an ingominous life, and they take out their frustrations in this manner, against the West which they see as succesful and those envy it's power.

Beyond the terrorists, while the Arab/muslim world had reasons to be grieved and wronged, it is also my belief that the islamic culture itself is in a deep crisis. Many elements within it want to keep their socities shielded not only from modernity, but from rationality. Which is why all along the islamic world's borders (saharan and upper sub-saharan Africa, western China, southern Rusia, Indoensia, India, Israel, the Balkans), it always seems to be that there is a conflict between islamic elements and someone else. The constant is ''islamic extremists''. So it is natural to conclude that there is a fundamental crisis inside islamic based culture that seems to be incapable of coexisting or adapting to the times. Which is sad because 1000 years ago it was Christianity that was the intransigent faith and Islam the more adaptive, accepting and enlightened one.

In the end, because the original grievances were not properly adressed, you reach the situation where people just fight to fight and not much else.
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PanHAM
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:12 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 8):

Then again, the real terrorists are the ones who support destroying our freedoms and liberties in the name of 'security'.

you cannot call people who have been elected into office in free, democratic votes "terrorists". It is their job, once in office, to protect the public. Now, we can discuss the wway they are doing it. It is not always wise what elected officals are doing and we can criticizse them in many ways.

But it is absolutely wrong and a gross misjudgement of how governments funtion to call them terrorists. You have to understand that an individual who is voted into an office is accountable for what he is doing. That alone separates us from terrorists.
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TheCol
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:34 pm

It all boils down to hate and greed. Both forces act like a disease that poison's the soul, killing off all sense of empathy and morality. Terrorists are "zombies" that have become enslaved to their own hate and greed, operating with absolutely no sense of rationality. They in turn spread it around like a plague. Like over the course of most diseases, IMHO, there is a point of no return. So in other words, Terrorists don't want anything tangible. They'll never be satisfied with anything we give them. They just want to reap a path of destruction and export it around the globe.
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DocLightning
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:05 am

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):

My issues is this: What do they want? What are their goals?

Well, they want an unrealistic version of the world in which everyone is like them and agrees with them. More immediately they want many things, but most of them want to destroy. I don't think you could do this kind of work if you didn't enjoy it. In a weird way, I can almost see how it could be fun and exciting. Don't report me to DHS for that, I'm harmless as a butterfly and I couldn't bring myself to intentionally harm a complete stranger who I'd never met. But I can see how the job would have its intellectual and logistical challenges. Kind of like arranging a good prank, like the kids at MIT do. With trivial exception: in these "pranks," tens to thousands of innocent people die while just trying to go about their lives.

Why? They're poor. They've admitted this and we know this. When it comes to funds, they have nothing. Oh, some heroin money here and some government money there, but when compared to even the military of a modest-sized first-world country like France, AQ are pitifully underfunded. They're desperate. They're envious of us and our lifestyle. They've all but admitted it. Except they speak of "decadence." That must never be allowed. And yet this is the culture that gave us hashish, hookahs, and belly dancers. They hate freedom. They want a Muslim Middle-East and they want the West out of it. They blame us for their wars (and in many cases we are actually responsible), their famines (ditto), their industrial accidents (ditto), their loss of culture (ditto) and eventually we are the Great Satan.

How? They've figured it out. With publicity. They go "BOO!" and we drop another three gajillion on security. Security is going to become a major expense, one to rival defense. And and at the rate we are going we will live in a security nation with a national police that can spy on us and do all sorts of things in the name of "stopping terrorism." It will become far worse than communism ever was because there is no way to win a war on terrorism. You'd sooner defeat Homer's Hydra with a bronze sword. Every time we give up our privacy or our liberty, every time someone suggests violating this or that part of the constitution for "security's sake," they score a point. And, like Communism, I'm afraid that terrorism will leave its indelible mark on our society. Many of our worst policies were forged during the Cold War.

I'm reminded of an episodes from the ThunderCats (remember them?) in which they defeat a particular monster because the monster is fed by fear. They turn their backs on him and he shrinks to something small and impotent and they force him back in his tomb. The War on Terror can only succeed with the same mentality. We must not fear. We must accept that there is a minute chance that we can be might die in an attack today, but we must not change our way of life. Unfortunately, with various privacy acts, etc. and now the infamous body scanners, we have.

The more we fear and the more money we spend, the more less like a civilized, democratic nation we become, the more they have won. I flew within 6 months of 9/11 and I would have flown the next week if I'd had somewhere to go. I have never once hesitated to step on a plane because I was afraid of terrorists. I am now very hesitant to step on a plane because I am afraid of my government.

Terrorists: 1 US: 0
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Fly2HMO
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:20 am

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
What Do Terrorists Want?

I like to think of them of needy attention whores, just like many women out there. They're never satisfied with anything in their lives and even when they get what they want, they don't stop there, they keep bitching, moaning and whining and asking for more or something else or whatever.
 
soon7x7
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:05 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 10):
Modern terrorism in the name of ''Islam'' began as a reaction to decades of harrasment and meddling by the West of Arabs nations, from Iraq to Iran, to Palestine and Saudi Arabia, and on and on.

The West needs to own up to that fact.


Perhaps the East should face that fact as the Middle east was happy to entertain the west's desire for oil, the middle East has reaped decades of benefits from US oil $$$. The fact that some in the East have an issue with that, apparently is too bad. "Write your congressman"...Many in the West have an issue with with the influx of Muslim communities here in the states while trying to inject Sharia law into western fabric. With no trickle down affluence in the middle east region it is clear to see why Islam is the only aspect of life that is embraced. I feel sorry for a society that only dreams of death when in fact their is so much to live for while one is alive. As Bin Laden quoted two months ago..."True believers of Islam live to die, while westerners die to live"...Quite a profound statement if you ask me and true evidence the two will never see eye to eye...
 
Superfly
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:29 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 15):
Perhaps the East should face that fact as the Middle east was happy to entertain the west's desire for oil, the middle East has reaped decades of benefits from US oil $$$. The fact that some in the East have an issue with that, apparently is too bad. "Write your congressman"...Many in the West have an issue with with the influx of Muslim communities here in the states while trying to inject Sharia law into western fabric. With no trickle down affluence in the middle east region it is clear to see why Islam is the only aspect of life that is embraced. I feel sorry for a society that only dreams of death when in fact their is so much to live for while one is alive. As Bin Laden quoted two months ago..."True believers of Islam live to die, while westerners die to live"...Quite a profound statement if you ask me and true evidence the two will never see eye to eye...


  
I doubt the oil barons that own private 747SPs, and palaces in Dubai are complaining about influence from the west.

The west has 'meddled' throughout Asia, Africa and South America and I don't see the Buddhist and Christians from those parts of the world terrorizing the west.
Hell the US dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. That was far more damaging than anything done by the west in the Middle East. I don't see the Japanese bombing aircraft, buildings and demanding Japanese law in the countries they move to.
Why should the Muslims get a free pass?
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Doona
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:15 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
From what I read, he only invaded northern Africa to be able to invade Italy and was meant to be a staging point only.

This sentence makes no sense what so ever. Is it possible to have it clarified?

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Superfly
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:21 am

Quoting Doona (Reply 17):
This sentence makes no sense what so ever. Is it possible to have it clarified?


Actually it makes perfect sense, since it was prefaced with; "From what I read". Thus not stating this as a fact. Just simply pointing out something that I read.
There are thousands of books and website about World War Two.
If you know more about this aspect on World War Two, tell us about it rather than attacking another member.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:24 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
Why? They're poor. They've admitted this and we know this. When it comes to funds, they have nothing. Oh, some heroin money here and some government money there, but when compared to even the military of a modest-sized first-world country like France, AQ are pitifully underfunded. They're desperate. They're envious of us and our lifestyle. They've all but admitted it. Except they speak of "decadence." That must never be allowed. And yet this is the culture that gave us hashish, hookahs, and belly dancers. They hate freedom. They want a Muslim Middle-East and they want the West out of it. They blame us for their wars (and in many cases we are actually responsible), their famines (ditto), their industrial accidents (ditto), their loss of culture (ditto) and eventually we are the Great Satan.

The 9/11 attackers came all out of wealthy families, who could afford to send their sons to Europe to university.
Similarly ammong the communist terrorists of the 1970s RAF (Red Army Faction, better knows as the Baader-Meinhof gang), there was only one token proletarian. The rest were disgrunteled intellectuals of wealthy backgrounds. None of them ever worked in a factory, but they claimed to represent the workers of the world.

Terrorism is a tactic, not a goal by itself (except for some in the bottom ranks, who enjoy wreaking havoc). Even with the suicidical Islamists, you´ll find that there are some people in the background (usually older men with long beards), who do everything to stay alive, who let others do the dirty and risky work and who make sure that they are going to be part of the new leadership when their revolution comes through.
Terrorism as a tactic is being used by political minorities, who know that they are a minority, to force the majority to follow their rule. As such terrorism is highly anti-democratic.
The communist RAF tried by attacking high profile representants of German politics, judiciary and business to force the government to turn into a fascist police state, which then would cause the population to rebell against this police state, with the terrorists being the revolutionary avantgarde and leadership. This didn´t work out, since
a) the terrorists and their political point of view had almost no support among the population, and
b) because the German government REFUSED to turn the country into a police state, instead using existing laws to itit´s fullest (thanks to chancellor Helmuth Schmidt, who refused to give in to the rightwings around Franz-Joseph Strauss, who demanded that the German police should e.g. execute imprisoned terrorists and sympathizers as hostages until hostages taken by the terrorists were released).

Similarly nationalist terrorist groups like the Basque ETA or the Irish PIRA had never a majority support even in their own communities, mainly because they also wanted to introduce communist ideas, like nationalising businesses. E.g. most Basques with nationalist ideas tended to vote for moderate nationalist parties, which were in favour of autonomy and eventual independence through negotiations, not armed combat, and which realise that the idea of a Greater Basque country incorporating the Spanish Basque areas, theFrench Basque areas and the neighbouring Spanish proving Navarra (which used to be Basque hundreds of years ago, but where the population today identifies with Spain) are illusory. Last election in the Spanish Basque country actually showed a large majority for the moderate Spanish socialists, who want to keep Spain together (with cultural and regional autonomy for the regions with minority cultures and languages, like Catalonia, the Basque country, Galicia and Andalusia).

The normal argument by supporters of terrorist groups against those who critizise them is that one can only critizise them if one is fighting himself, but then internal critizism of the leadership is considered treason. Outside critzism is not accepted.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
JJJ
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:32 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
They hate freedom. They want a Muslim Middle-East and they want the West out of it. They blame us for their wars (and in many cases we are actually responsible), their famines (ditto), their industrial accidents (ditto), their loss of culture (ditto) and eventually we are the Great Satan.

That's pretty much it.

There was a time when the middle east was going the western way. The urban elites and middle-class were pretty much westernized, religion was losing ground to secularism, nationalism, communism, feminism, etc. and other conceptions. People forgot their Arab and Muslim background and started to think in terms of their own country borders in a more western way.

Then two things happened: oil and Israel. Suddenly they learned that the west (and the Soviet Union) had absolutely no qualms on propping up corrupt dictators as long as they let them have cheap oil, and had no problem displacing thousands of Arab brethren to make room for mostly European Jews.

People saw how the oil riches were going either to the west or to corrupt and despotic tyrants, they were being left behind, they had been used and abused and then Israel gave them an excuse to unite.

That's why, instead of blaming their own corrupt leaders (mostly propped by western powers) they blamed the West. We have seen a return to religion, a return to traditional ways as the western lifestyle failed them.

Every middle-eastern chieftain since then invariably will blame the west for whatever goes wrong, and that creates a culture of violence with the predictable results.
 
rfields5421
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:47 am

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
What do they want?

For the world to leave them alone, their countries alone. To stop things like reading, the internet, television, cell phones from entering their part of the world. And when they visit our part of the world - we need to change to observe their rules/ laws.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
What are their goals?

To make us afraid and fearful. To make us change our sinful way of life.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
Do they think they can win?

Have they made us change airport security since 9/11? Have they made us fearful of our neighbors and strangers?

When those happen - they have won.
 
Quokka
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:25 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 20):
That's why, instead of blaming their own corrupt leaders (mostly propped by western powers) they blamed the West


This is partly true but not completely. There have been several groups involved in attempts to challenge leaders seen as corrupt, but these have been largely ineffectual. Sayyid Qutb was hanged for his advocating violent struggle against the regime of Nassar. The most notable successful outrage was the assassination of Anwar Sadat. While some groups that formerly advocated violence have renounced it and tried to work within the limits of their societies (the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt for example) others convinced themselves that they could only succeed by extending the struggle to those who support the leaders - i.e. the West.

The fact that terrorist Jihadis continue to exist is not a reflection of widespread support as some suggest. They remain isolated and on the margins, not just through repression and the work of intelligence agencies, but because traditionally the ulema have held the view that jihad is a collective responsibility and defensive in nature. Qutb was one of the main advocates of the notion of jihad being a personal and continuous responsibility - it is his ideas that inspire the likes of Osama bin Laden. Fortunately his ideas are still those of a very small minority.
 
Mudboy
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:47 pm

One would think that the goal would be to inflict so much fear in their enemies, that the victims of terror, would force their governments to change their actions or policies, against those that have inflicted the terror.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:44 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
a) the terrorists and their political point of view had almost no support among the population

No support among population for thier political view? Not even among the left-leaning "1968ers" intellectuals like Böll or Sartre and among students in particular?

A remarkable poll is conducted in Germany about this time (summer of 1971). One in four Germans express “a certain sympathy” for the Baader-Meinhof Gang, and fully 20 percent of the population indicate that they might be willing to give some form of illegal support to the gang—a bed for the night, money, food—if one of the gang members showed up at their front stoop.

http://www.baader-meinhof.com/gunspeaks/gunchaptercapsules.html
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:03 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 24):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
a) the terrorists and their political point of view had almost no support among the population

No support among population for thier political view? Not even among the left-leaning "1968ers" intellectuals like Böll or Sartre and among students in particular?

A remarkable poll is conducted in Germany about this time (summer of 1971). One in four Germans express “a certain sympathy” for the Baader-Meinhof Gang, and fully 20 percent of the population indicate that they might be willing to give some form of illegal support to the gang—a bed for the night, money, food—if one of the gang members showed up at their front stoop.

http://www.baader-meinhof.com/gunspeaks/gunchaptercapsules.html

I give you an example:
When I was a boy, we had a neighbour, a university student in her early 20s back then, who was a member of one of the communist K-groups (as they were called back then, various communist alphabet groups with small numbers of members, but very radical, asome Maoist, some Trotzkist, some Stalinist).
One morning she and her friends got up early (a miracle!) and stood at the exit of an underground station in a working class district of West Berlin, close to some factories, handing out leaflets to the bleary eyed workers on their way to eary shift.
In these leaflets they demanded "Worker controls", they meant that the workers should take over the factories and control what they produce.
The response by the workers (in broadest Berlin slang, the closest equivalent in English would be Cockney) was "What, you milkfaces of students want to control us? F*ck off and get lost or I´ll beat the living sh*t out of you!".
The students made a hasty retreat.

The K-groups of the 1968 generation were noisy, but had not many followers (except among some intellectuals and pseudo-intellectuals). Most workers back then were staunch traditional socialdemocrat (the first postwar leader of this party, Kurt Schumacher, who has been in a Nazi concentration camp and lost an arm there, said that the "communist are red-painted Nazis").
The general answer to those who spouted communist ideology in West Berlin or Western Germany was "If you like those commies that much, why don´t you just f*ck off to East Germany?".

Maybe the frustration over the lack of support by the broad majority of the population, including industrial workers, who failed to accept them as the revolutionary leadership, made the radical leftwings turn to violence to enforce their goals.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Quokka
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:12 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25):
made the radical leftwings turn to violence to enforce their goals


That terror was the response to a failure to make links between their ideology and the real, actual, day to day concerns of ordinary working people is not surprising. Other radical groups drew different conclusions. Those that progressed to terror had ideas of being a "vanguard" that led to systemic elitism and (what Trotsky described as) substitutionism. In place of the activity by the class they professed to represent they pointed to their own heroics. In a way they were not dissimilar to professional politicians who argue that ordinary people need to rely on the actions of "representatives" who are best able to achieve change. Not for nothing terrorists have been described as "reformists with machine guns."

And this is perhaps the crux of the matter: terrorists seek to impose change from above. They are not about building broad-based coalitions, popular movements or united fronts of interested parties. They don't work with the people but in place of the people, having first decided that they know best what the people want or need.
 
charlienorth
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:39 pm

They just want to be loved...it's simple, they're victims they've lived in poor conditions, been poor and nobody listens to them, go out find a terrorist, give him a great big hug and tell him it's ok you're there for him and you'll be his friend. Guarantee terrorism will end.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
Quokka
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:21 pm

Quoting charlienorth (Reply 27):
They just want to be loved...it's simple,


That is funny and at the same time true when it relates to people from a comfortable middle to upper class background. In the West and the US if people feel unappreciated they now pig out and then go to Jenny Craig. Smarter people simply sue McDonalds. Terrorism by gluttony!

Now if Osama had been promised Sarah Lee for life for supporting the US in its attempts to dislodge those dreadful commies from Afghanistan, instead of that dreadful condo in Florida....

 
 
slider
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:40 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7):
Terrorism is always political. Regardless of what the stated cause is, the ultimate 'destination' is some form of change where the terrorists' ideology(ies) is forced upon their victims.

Well, you’re correct in using the term ideology, but in the context of Islamic terrorism, there is no separation between political and religious, nor social or commercial. Islam is an all-encompassing ideology that covers ALL of those realms.

Quoting Derico (Reply 10):
Modern terrorism in the name of ''Islam'' began as a reaction to decades of harrasment and meddling by the West of Arabs nations, from Iraq to Iran, to Palestine and Saudi Arabia, and on and on.

The West needs to own up to that fact.

Actually, “modern” terrorism in the name of Islam goes back to 632 AD. The weapons and tactics are different, but it’s the same thing, just different points on an identical continuum.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
Why? They're poor. They've admitted this and we know this. When it comes to funds, they have nothing.

Jan already addressed this, magnificently, I might add, but being poor has no correlation to terrorism. For the billions of poor and a billion poor Muslims, the way out is by adapting to modernity and accepting a different social and economic model—THAT is completely incongruous with Islam.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 20):
Then two things happened: oil and Israel.

BINGO. Well said in the post…

Quoting charlienorth (Reply 27):
They just want to be loved...it's simple, they're victims they've lived in poor conditions, been poor and nobody listens to them, go out find a terrorist, give him a great big hug and tell him it's ok you're there for him and you'll be his friend. Guarantee terrorism will end.

LOL! By jove, I think you’re onto something! Maybe that’s what’s wrong with Kim Jong-Mentally-Il….he’s just lonely.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:26 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 29):
Well, you%u2019re correct in using the term ideology, but in the context of Islamic terrorism, there is no separation between political and religious, nor social or commercial. I

We had the same issue with those who bombed abortion clinics in the name of Christian faith.

Quoting Slider (Reply 29):
Actually, %u201Cmodern%u201D terrorism in the name of Islam goes back to 632 AD. The weapons and tactics are different, but it%u2019s the same thing, just different points on an identical continuum.

As was Christiantiy back then (until the period of enlightenment and secularism in the West. May I remind you of the wars of reformation and counterreformation, the 30 year war, the English Civil War, the Holy Inquisition and the old rule of "Cuio regio, cuio religio" (I hope I spelled it right).
Western civilisation only took off with increased secularism and science starting in the late 17th century in some countries and other countries kept backwards until well into the 20th century.
Also, as to all Christian beliefs being against slavery, this is not true. Sure, Christian groups in e.g. England were very vocal in their call for abolishing slavery during the early 19th century, but others, like the Calvinist Dutch Reformed Church of South Africa, used the Bible to justify slavery and exploitation of the black population until very recently.

Up to the late 19th century, it was very accepted by many colonial powers to enforce conversion to Christianity with weapons and force. The Indian uprising of 1857 was partially caused by this enforced christianisation.

Quoting Slider (Reply 29):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
Why? They're poor. They've admitted this and we know this. When it comes to funds, they have nothing.

Jan already addressed this, magnificently, I might add, but being poor has no correlation to terrorism. For the billions of poor and a billion poor Muslims, the way out is by adapting to modernity and accepting a different social and economic model—THAT is completely incongruous with Islam.

As with ANY totalitarian model of society, and a theocracy (no matter if it is Muslim, Christian or whatever) is just as totalitarian as fascism or communism. Could you imagine a world, where the Pope had unlimited power? For many centuries there were wars fought about this issue here in Europe, until the Pope finally lost (Yes, the Pope used to have an army of his own and got support from rulers, who then wanted benefits from him. The Swiss guard is the last leftover from this period).

Concerning terrorists, they come in several flavours:

First, there are those, who hope to benefit personally if they should win. They usually stay in the background, don´t get their hands dirty and plan the grand strategies. OBL or the HAMAS leadershp in Damascus are one of this type.

Then there exists those for whom terror is an intellectual challenge and who like to see whole nations being afraid of them. They enjoy wreaking havoc and playing cat and mouse with various governments. The terrorist Carlos the Jackal was one of this type, same as Andreas Baader of the Baader-Meinhof gang. They professed to be communists and supporters of the disenfranchised, but loved to show off in sports cars etc. and liked the good life.

Next group are those who take up arms from a genuine concern for e.g. the poor or persecuted, but who pervert their own aims. IMO Ulrike Meinhof of the RAF was one of these, well meaning, but chose the wrong ways to act.

The last group are those, whom I call cannon fodder. They are those who blow themselves up, raid banks, kidnap hostages etc.. They do the dirty work and are considered to be expendable.
Often brainwashed by the first group into only trusting their leaders, they are often losers, who are looking for their 15 minutes of fame or notoriety.
As the sister of a German convert to Islam, who later joined a terror group, which tried to blow up US military installations in Germany said in an interview: "If he wouldn´t have joined the Islamists, he would have joined the Neo-Nazis or the Communists". These are people, who don´t feel a real sense in life, feel always misunderstood and fall prey to cult-like groups, which give them something like a family. Many of the footsoldiers of communist, fascist, nationalist or Islamist groups belong to this category.

Jan
.
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:55 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
you cannot call people who have been elected into office in free, democratic votes "terrorists".
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
But it is absolutely wrong and a gross misjudgement of how governments funtion to call them terrorists. You have to understand that an individual who is voted into an office is accountable for what he is doing. That alone separates us from terrorists.

Let's consider my local example. A bunch of hot-headed people shot an innocent man to death on the tube. Their organisation then lied, altered photos in a racist way, obfuscated any investigation. Regardless of whether this is 'the police' or 'al-Qaeda', the results are the same.

No was accountable when Jean-Charles de Menezes died, no one has lost their job.
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:04 pm

Quote:
"The fundamental flaw in our thinking about Bin Laden is that "Muslims hate and attack us for what we are and think, rather than what we do." Muslims are bothered by our modernity, democracy, and sexuality, but they are rarely spurred to action unless American forces encroach on their lands. It's American foreign policy that enrages Osama and al-Qaeda, not American culture and society." - Michael Scheuer, 22-year CIA veteran, Counterterrorist Center's Bin Laden station 1996-1999.


I would add that this isn't just true of the US policies, but of all western policies towards that region.
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Quokka
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:53 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 29):
For the billions of poor and a billion poor Muslims, the way out is by adapting to modernity and accepting a different social and economic model—THAT is completely incongruous with Islam.


Funnily enough, that is exactly what Marx argued. The way forward for Jews to escape discrimination as Jews was to modernise and to abandon Judaism. Marx is no longer fashionable and is accused of being an anti semite (despite his equal rejection of Christianity), but his basic argument that what held people back was their clinging to outmoded religions and ways of life was ignored.

Quoting Slider (Reply 29):
Islam is an all-encompassing ideology


This is true in so far as Islam scholars believe that there is no separation between how you act in the world of men and how you act in your relation to Allah. In Islam there is no concept that you can lie to your partners today, commit adultery with a lover this afternoon, cheat your mother out of her dowry this evening and dump her in a "retirement village" and repent your sins in Church on Sunday as long as you give a donation to the vicar.

But that does not make it essentially backward. While we may be familiar with the diatribes of bin Laden, we ignore the lively debates that occur within the wider community. Historically, Islam has shown itself to be supportive of scientific enquiry and has put forward theories rejected by Rome but subsequently adopted. Zero was denounced by the Church as being an expression of the Anti Christ. Yet it the basis of the decimal system: without it kilometres, litres, grammes, the US dollar could not exist. The binary systems of computers, etc, rest on the the notion of 1 or 0. What dreadful barbarians the Muslims were to invent zero!

It is true that today Islamic societies do not appear to be at the forefront of technological development, but that is not due to any intrinsic flaw in Islam any more than Britain became regarded as the "sick man of Europe" because of the Archbishop of Canterbury. Once upon a time, Athens was regarded as the centre of the civilised world. They were replaced by Rome. Can Athens really be regarded as backward simply because they fell to superior brute force? Bear in mind that democracy is a Greek word while res publica is a Latin term.
 
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RE: What Do Terrorists Want?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:41 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 33):
What dreadful barbarians the Muslims were to invent zero!

Sorry, the zero was not invented by the Muslims. It was invented by Arybhatta, an Indian astronomer.
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