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Aaron747
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Obama Not Legit..Because Hawaii Is Not A US State?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:37 am

A very interesting legal game is afoot in Hawaii as a local political science professor, Dr. Keanu Sai, has launched a federal lawsuit alleging that his 1997 conviction for investigating Hawaiian land title claims was invalid due to his attempts at "administering Hawaiian kingdom law".

Among the points made in his lawsuit:

- An executive agreement made in 1893 between Hawaii's Queen and President Cleveland is still in effect
- All subsequent land exchanges up to the declaration of statehood are invalid and have no continuity since they do not properly execute the 1893 agreement
- President Obama must be reinstated as president owing to the fact he was not actually born in a territory of the United States, thus has no authority to continue imposing federal law on residents of Hawaii. This assertion that he is not legitimately the President has to be one of the most original such claims since he has taken office!

There have been several amended filings since the original lawsuit was filed in June, and the latest developments could blow this thing up much more:

In November 2010 Dr. Sai filed a motion with the court to amend his complaint by adding 35 foreign nations as defendants. These are nations who “illegally” maintain consulates in Hawaii and recognize the sovereignty of the United States here...The clear implication is that they could be liable for actual and punitive damages to Dr. Sai and to the Kingdom of Hawaii, and that they should withdraw their consulates.

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/defend...gainst-hawaiian-sovereignty-attack

All of his pleadings and the government's responses are available on his website. It's worth noting that while this guy claims to be a "pro-tem of the Hawaiian kingdom" but his court filings are impressively researched, and the government's responses to his complaint seem to be missing a clear refutation of his claims regarding the 1893 agreement, which would seemingly invalidate his points.

http://hawaiiankingdom.org/sai-obama.shtml

Interesting to see where this one goes.
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falstaff
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RE: Obama Not Legit..Because Hawaii Is Not A US State?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:26 pm

Well, my flag has a star for Hawaii so that means it is a state....  
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4holer
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RE: Obama Not Legit..Because Hawaii Is Not A US State?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:00 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Interesting to see where this one goes.

Not interesting. Getting pretty tiresome actually.
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dlflynhayn
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RE: Obama Not Legit..Because Hawaii Is Not A US State?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:15 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 1):
Well, my flag has a star for Hawaii so that means it is a state....

Why cannot just erase one star? or take Hawaii off and add Puerto rico! hmmmmm
 
Quokka
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RE: Obama Not Legit..Because Hawaii Is Not A US State?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:34 pm

As fascinated by US history as I am , even I can't get excited by this.

The chances of success are extremely slim and a successful outcome would bring into question how other States of the Union came into being. Given that there is precious little evidence that the aboriginal inhabitants wanted to be dispossessed a ruling that Hawaii was unlawfully "acquired" might open the way to further claims. In the absence of a widely supported and continuing movement for Hawaiian independence I fail to see how such a claim can be successful.

Apart from this person who has been previously convicted for fraud, is there any genuine desire for independence among Hawaiians?
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Obama Not Legit..Because Hawaii Is Not A US State?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:04 pm

This to me is just rediculous. Just another way to try to rid Obama from the presidency (coming from a strong Libertarian). The guy is president, Hawaii is a full state and has been one for 50 years, get over it.
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Aaron747
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RE: Obama Not Legit..Because Hawaii Is Not A US State?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:08 pm

Quoting 4holer (Reply 2):
Not interesting. Getting pretty tiresome actually.

Interesting because this is the first time someone has mounted a well-researched legal case the government seems to have difficulty responding to. I suspect he has help from a ghost writer.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 4):
The chances of success are extremely slim and a successful outcome would bring into question how other States of the Union came into being.

This guy cites some 20 other cases where states were admitted to make note of Hawaii's abject uniqueness of process, despite claiming in the pleadings that the suit is not about the legitimacy of the state, rather the interruption of process from the 1893 agreement that violates executive orders.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 4):
aboriginal inhabitants

Most of these claims are not about aboriginal inhabitants - rather they are made by folks who claim some genetic bloodline to Hawaiian royalty and thus stand to hugely benefit monetarily.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 4):
Apart from this person who has been previously convicted for fraud, is there any genuine desire for independence among Hawaiians?

Enough that various movements with different goals have stayed alive since 1959.
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KCmike
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RE: Obama Not Legit..Because Hawaii Is Not A US State?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:10 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 5):
This to me is just rediculous. Just another way to try to rid Obama from the presidency (coming from a strong Libertarian). The guy is president, Hawaii is a full state and has been one for 50 years, get over it.

Well said. I'm not a huge fan of the guy, but he's been President for almost two years now and will be for atleast the next two. Nothing is going to change that. So who cares.
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Aaron747
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RE: Obama Not Legit..Because Hawaii Is Not A US State?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:23 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 5):
The guy is president, Hawaii is a full state and has been one for 50 years, get over it.

This guy is not going to get over it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0asu1wfUrY

Come to find out he is actually an ex-US Army officer who resigned his commission in 1994.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Obama Not Legit..Because Hawaii Is Not A US State?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:35 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
This guy cites some 20 other cases where states were admitted to make note of Hawaii's abject uniqueness of process, despite claiming in the pleadings that the suit is not about the legitimacy of the state, rather the interruption of process from the 1893 agreement that violates executive orders.

Well, the coup by American planters against the Hawaiían Queen and the susbsequent takeover by the US in the 1890s was a bit dodgy. But this was a period of outright imperialism in the US (and other countries). Just look at the Spanish-American war and the takeover of the Philippines as a colony by the US during this time (though there were many Americans against territorial expansion overseas, foremost Mark Twain).
These aquisitions were mostly made on behalf of American planters, who feared cheap competition from abroad.

But this happened several generations ago. It should be mentioned for historical reasons (as not to sweep the bad parts of a country´s history under the carpet, e.g. slavery or dictatorship), but I don´t see any need for restitutions and compensations. The people, who got directly affect are long dead.

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Quokka
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RE: Obama Not Legit..Because Hawaii Is Not A US State?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:37 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):


How widespread are the various bodies (for want of a better word) that oppose US statehood? Do they really have that much support? I ask because there has been nothing in the Australian media about this - a cat stuck up a tree in Arkansas is more likely to receive attention.

In the links provided in the original post, the suggestion is that the motivation for US intervention and subsequent annexation was instigated by people who were not born in Hawaii but who may have suffered economic loss due to changes in import restrictions. That is, they may have found it difficult to export from Hawaii to the US and so they favoured US annexation. While it is obvious that the supporters of Keanu Sai wish to gain financially, do they enjoy wider support? Do "ethnic" Hawaiians generally support this claim or do they believe that nothing is to be gained from a challenge to US sovereignty of which they are generally supportive?

I ask the question not just because of a general fascination, but also because of the issues that Australia faces with land rights and native title. Sometimes decisions by courts overseas can influence the decisions of judges here in Australia.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Obama Not Legit..Because Hawaii Is Not A US State?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:51 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 10):
Do "ethnic" Hawaiians generally support this claim or do they believe that nothing is to be gained from a challenge to US sovereignty of which they are generally supportive?

If you asked 10 "native" Hawaiians about this, you'd get 10 different answers. The problem is that most Hawaiians are poor, and despite billions held in trusts established by the royals, they have remained poor. Statehood didn't change their situation - so I suspect many don't really care one way or the other at this point. But that's not to say there aren't some who are strongly opposed to what they see as continued "occupation."

Quoting Quokka (Reply 10):
How widespread are the various bodies (for want of a better word) that oppose US statehood? Do they really have that much support?

From what people who have lived here a lot longer than me have said, it ebbs and flows but there are probably in the neighborhood of 25,000 people actively involved in those efforts.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
It should be mentioned for historical reasons (as not to sweep the bad parts of a country´s history under the carpet, e.g. slavery or dictatorship), but I don´t see any need for restitutions and compensations.

Nor do I. Except this guy wants a judge to actually go much further than that. I think what he underestimates is their lack of ability to do so.
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Quokka
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RE: Obama Not Legit..Because Hawaii Is Not A US State?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:02 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):

Thanks for the reply with some background information. I appreciate it.
So maybe a floating 2% of the population may agree with this guy?

You mention trusts held by the royals holding billions. I don't wish to tire you with questions, but how were these established and were they actually meant to benefit ordinary Hawaiians? And what do you think the reasons for the failures to address poverty may be?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Obama Not Legit..Because Hawaii Is Not A US State?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:18 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 12):
You mention trusts held by the royals holding billions. I don't wish to tire you with questions, but how were these established and were they actually meant to benefit ordinary Hawaiians?

A lot more than I could ever tell you here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamehameha_Schools

Quoting Quokka (Reply 12):
And what do you think the reasons for the failures to address poverty may be?

Just my personal suspicion, but keeping people poor often serves a political purpose.

A lot of people unfamiliar with the local culture will tell you Hawaiians are simply lazy and don't desire education, preferring to spend time with family, eat, and surf. While stereotypes are often partially based on true observations, I don't think this is generally true as the Hawaiians have been strong workers, designers and innovators through their history. The primary reason is that the drivers of wealth in statehood-era Hawaii - real estate development, military contracting, and agriculture, have mostly been instigated by people from outside the islands, and with the exception of Hawaiian trustees of developed lands, most Hawaiians have not been in a position to gain excess financial advantage from these activities.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Obama Not Legit..Because Hawaii Is Not A US State?

Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:06 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 4):
is there any genuine desire for independence among Hawaiians?

I've met a number of native Hawaiians who would love an independant Hawaiian nation, I believe a lot of them feel they have been robbed.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
A lot of people unfamiliar with the local culture will tell you Hawaiians are simply lazy and don't desire education, preferring to spend time with family, eat, and surf.

Pretty much the same (minus surfing) as most other pacific islanders, they live a slower paced life, which appears to be a lazy existance to most of us.
 
Ozair
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RE: Obama Not Legit..Because Hawaii Is Not A US State?

Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:35 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
- An executive agreement made in 1893 between Hawaii's Queen and President Cleveland is still in effect
- All subsequent land exchanges up to the declaration of statehood are invalid and have no continuity since they do not properly execute the 1893 agreement

Seeing these kind of reports always reminds me of a guy we have here. He seceded from Australia on 21st April 1970. Not serious but certainly amusing although he could do with hiring a better web designer.

http://www.principality-hutt-river.com/

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