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DocLightning
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Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:30 am

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68I1ND20100919

Quote:
The Obama family never joined a church in Washington. Obama has said it would be too disruptive to the congregation. The White House says he regularly attends services at a chapel at Camp David when spends weekends at the presidential retreat in Maryland.

So basically, Obama is a lapsed Christian, like so many others in this country. Like the majority of people. He says he's a Christian because it sounds but in reality, he goes to church when it pleases him and probably only believes in the most abstract sense of God.

He doesn't care about taking his daughters to church and making it a regular ritual for him. I think that says a lot about it.

This is something I really hate about American politics. He feels a need to keep invoking his Christian faith because people seem to care. This idea that the President has to be religious is so contrary to the express wording of the Constitution that it enrages me, especially when I hear the so-called "strict constitutionalist" Tea Partiers bring it up.

The Constitution (Art. VI) says:

Quote:
no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Period. End of story, finito. Religion not matter. So why do so many people who claim to "love America" seem to care?
-Doc Lightning-

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Emirates773ER
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:40 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Period. End of story, finito. Religion not matter. So why do so many people who claim to "love America" seem to care?

Well for one the voting public seems to care and the nut jobs on the right seem to care even more. Could you imagine the field day fox news would have if a presidential candidate from the left were to enter the scene. Not to mention the fact that the said presidential candidate will not get any votes from the south.

As far as Obama is concerned, the guy is Christian to be in office, I believe he is actually a wardrobe agnostic.
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Quokka
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:08 am

If Obama is a Christian or not is up to him and nobody else. Sadly, despite the Constitutional position, politicians will resort to almost anything to smear their opponents and to some being un-Christian is as bad as being un-American.

Yet, I do not think that non-attendance in a Church is proof of not being Christian. His point about being disruptive to a local congregation has some validity when I recall that Kevin Rudd, while Prime Minister of Australia, got into the habit of being televised coming out of church on Sundays.

I don't know whether Obama is a Christian or not. I am not but I do recall the bit in the Bible where JC says,"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the Synagogues, and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward." He continues, "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

So perhaps Obama does his reflection in private or with his family. Who knows? Who cares?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:18 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 1):

Well for one the voting public seems to care and the nut jobs on the right seem to care even more.

Which scares the hell out of me. How the most un-American, those who hate what this country is actually supposed to be and are in love with some homogenized fantasy of it seem to have co-opted the Flag as their banner.
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flyerboy1990
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:19 am

Just because he doesn't publicly go to church doesn't mean he isn't Christian. However, I'm sure there are many politicians who say they are religious to gain office. I want to think that he is sincere in his spirituality. And I'm not so sure we can really judge him for it. That's up to God.
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LAXintl
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:33 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Period. End of story, finito. Religion not matter. So why do so many people who claim to "love America" seem to care?

Simply put, religion serves as an important underpinning of ones beliefs especially regarding ever important social and moral issues.

Electing someone that does not espouse similar ethical and social beliefs is simply something many could not do.

So yes, at the end of the day, ones religious association and convictions do matter immensely at the ballot box.

For Obama specifically, I'd say end the charade. We have seen that religion does not matter to him, or at least only matters in a political sense and not practical personal relationship for him and his family. I'm sure many who were lulled in the believing the man was more religious than he turned out to be will be casting votes the other way come 2-years from now. I have an African American Baptist colleague and this topic even apparently came up in his church to disgust of many parishioners.
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texan
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:16 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
For Obama specifically, I'd say end the charade. We have seen that religion does not matter to him, or at least only matters in a political sense and not practical personal relationship for him and his family.

Bush II, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, and Nixon paid lip service to the Bible and then acted against its teachings. Are you going to condemn them as well? They were putting on a face for the cameras to get elected -- they were religious for political reasons. Just like McCain. Religion has nothing to do with how well a person governs or how moral and ethical they are.

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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:28 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
I'm sure many who were lulled in the believing the man was more religious than he turned out to be will be casting votes the other way come 2-years from now.

It's incredibly unfortunate that in this day and age, some people are more willing to base their vote on a candidate's religious conviction than on their platform or record.

Quoting texan (Reply 6):
Bush II, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, and Nixon paid lip service to the Bible and then acted against its teachings. Are you going to condemn them as well? They were putting on a face for the cameras to get elected -- they were religious for political reasons. Just like McCain. Religion has nothing to do with how well a person governs or how moral and ethical they are.

Very well stated. Agree 1000%.
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avent
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:38 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Period. End of story, finito. Religion not matter. So why do so many people who claim to "love America" seem to care?

But you're the one raising the issue...
 
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:24 am

Quoting avent (Reply 8):

But you're the one raising the issue...

I wish I was.
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GDB
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:24 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
So why do so many people who claim to "love America" seem to care?

Because they want to turn the US into a Christian version of Iran.

Also, many of them probably regard the passing of the 1964 Civil Rights Act as a day of infamy almost on a par with Pearl Harbour.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:39 pm

President Obama has a long and complex life history as to his faith beliefs. His father was an inactive Muslim. He mother was probably as an adult, an inactive Christian. As he became a part of the Chicago community, and to help him succeed in politics, he chose to be with a Christian faith church, run by what turned out to be a controversial preacher who he had to renounce. What has happened is that with the obsession of the political news media as to a politian's faith, Obama is in a difficult fix. As noted, he is reluctant to go to a particular church regularly due to the disruption from security and media attention it would cause to the congregation and perhaps looking too favorable toward a certain group of society. If he goes to a 'Black' church, he will be bashed by whites. Go to a 'White' church, then Blacks will be disappointed with them. Who needs the hassles.

Deeper, I just think he has a very private faith belief, he doesn't have to be public about it and feels comfortable about it. That is more like 60% of Americans who don't regularly go to religious services so actually he has a position of the majority of America.
 
windy95
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:50 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 10):
Because they want to turn the US into a Christian version of Iran.

Also, many of them probably regard the passing of the 1964 Civil Rights Act as a day of infamy almost on a par with Pearl Harbour.

Do you have any idea as to what you are talking about?
 
soon7x7
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:01 pm

President Obama has proven to be a confused individual on both fronts...he entertains Muslim prayer events in the White house while at the same time goes to Church. He embraces the "call to prayer" as the "most beautiful sound on earth". (if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it sure isn't a parrot!) Either way, it really doesn't matter. What matters is his, has his ethical/moral base moved the American population forward/backward and if it is the latter...what are the motivating factors? Skin color?...so what...if he is the man for the job?, so be it...if he is not then out with him. How can a confused and divided leader, really be an effective leader?
 
Quokka
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:33 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 13):
He embraces the "call to prayer" as the "most beautiful sound on earth". (if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it sure isn't a parrot!)


I have heard some beautiful renditions of "Ave Maria". I have been moved to tears by pieces of music where I don't even speak the language. Does that make me a duck or a parrot?

As to holding prayer sessions for people of different backgrounds, is that a problem. Shouldn't the POTUS be seeking to unify citizens regardless of their personal religious beliefs?

As you say, at the end of the day what matters is how he improves the position of the US and its people.
 
Superfly
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:42 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
If he goes to a 'Black' church, he will be bashed by whites. Go to a 'White' church, then Blacks will be disappointed with them. Who needs the hassles.

  
I have to call B.S. on that.
The Church Obama attended in Chicago is not a typical Black Church. I know plenty of Christians that do not like attending political or activist Churches. Obama's Church and led by Rev. Wright is a very political and activist Church. There are plenty of Black elected officials that attend multi-ethnic Churches.
Growing up, our family attended a multi-ethnic Catholic Church and never recall getting flack from other Blacks.
Not sure where you're getting this information from.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 13):
Either way, it really doesn't matter.

The fact that he tries to hide his religious beliefs is what concerns me. That combined with his close associations with Islam makes this issue a very legitimate concern.
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N1120A
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:48 pm

Quoting texan (Reply 6):

Bush II, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, and Nixon paid lip service to the Bible and then acted against its teachings. Are you going to condemn them as well? They were putting on a face for the cameras to get elected -- they were religious for political reasons. Just like McCain. Religion has nothing to do with how well a person governs or how moral and ethical they are.

AFAIK, Carter is a pretty religious guy. Ford, on the other hand, was probably along that line.

Quoting GDB (Reply 10):

Also, many of them probably regard the passing of the 1964 Civil Rights Act as a day of infamy almost on a par with Pearl Harbour.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 12):

Do you have any idea as to what you are talking about?

Of course he does. Rand Paul certainly thinks that.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):

Growing up, our family attended a multi-ethnic Catholic Church and never recall getting flack from other Blacks.

Catholic Churches tend to be multi-ethnic, largely based on the neighborhood the parish is in. It is Protestant churches that tend to segregate.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):

The fact that he tries to hide his religious beliefs is what concerns me. That combined with his close associations with Islam makes this issue a very legitimate concern.

Really? Really? He takes religion out of it and it "concerns" you? Quite frankly, I think a Moslem would get elected before an Atheist or even Agnostic in this country, so I think the President's privacy is well founded.
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Superfly
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:57 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Catholic Churches tend to be multi-ethnic, largely based on the neighborhood the parish is in. It is Protestant churches that tend to segregate.

True. I just had to correct a comment by ltbewr.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Carter is a pretty religious guy.

Very true. He was not paying any "lip service" to Christians. He practiced it and was active in his Church.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Really? Really? He takes religion out of it and it "concerns" you?

Considering his upbringing, yes it does.
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StarAC17
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:57 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 1):
As far as Obama is concerned, the guy is Christian to be in office, I believe he is actually a wardrobe agnostic.

I have heard Bill Maher and Christopher Hitchens say repeated times that they suspect and hope that is truth about him and his advisors tell him to hide the fact he is not religous.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 1):
Well for one the voting public seems to care and the nut jobs on the right seem to care even more. Could you imagine the field day fox news would have if a presidential candidate from the left were to enter the scene. Not to mention the fact that the said presidential candidate will not get any votes from the south.

The non-religious right, who really run the show in the GOP but this might be changing due to the tea party uses the religious right almost everytime in an election to get social conservatives to vote against their economic interests, look at the 2004 election as an example. It's political genius
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windy95
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:16 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Quoting GDB (Reply 10):

Also, many of them probably regard the passing of the 1964 Civil Rights Act as a day of infamy almost on a par with Pearl Harbour.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 12):

Do you have any idea as to what you are talking about?

Of course he does. Rand Paul certainly thinks that.

And no Rand Paul does not think that.

And to equate many in the Republican party to a long ago quote from a racist shows that GDB does not know what he is talking about.
 
avent
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:43 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 13):
President Obama has proven to be a confused individual on both fronts...he entertains Muslim prayer events in the White house while at the same time goes to Church.

That's your confusion, not Obama's. What you attribute to Obama is really tolerance and reaching out.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:44 pm

Quoting texan (Reply 6):
Are you going to condemn them as well?

No I wont especially Bush or Reagan. Matter of fact several of the Presidents listed such as Reagan were deeply devoted to their religions and were central themes in their lives.
And no I don't call acts like going to war and resultant killing people going against religion as those are regular acts of State.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 7):
It's incredibly unfortunate that in this day and age, some people are more willing to base their vote on a candidate's religious conviction than on their platform or record.

Why unfortunate? Religious convictions and ones stance are simply another piece of qualifications to be weighed by the electorate.
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GDB
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:10 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 12):
Do you have any idea as to what you are talking about?

Probably a damn sight more than those who cannot tell the difference between North and South Korea - for the second time in two years, who think Steven Hawking would have been long dead had he been under the British Health System, who think FDR created the Great Depression (presumably also thinking that WW2 started in 1945) and much much more, not even worthy of a search to remind of such inanities.
 
fridgmus
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:38 pm

I always thought Obama's religion was himself!!!   
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OA412
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:22 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 12):
Do you have any idea as to what you are talking about?

Much more than you probably care to admit.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 14):
I have heard some beautiful renditions of "Ave Maria". I have been moved to tears by pieces of music where I don't even speak the language. Does that make me a duck or a parrot?

Exactly. I've heard some beautiful prayers, and I attended a Catholic funeral where they sang some beautiful hymns, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to go out and convert.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Of course he does. Rand Paul certainly thinks that.

  

Quoting windy95 (Reply 19):
And no Rand Paul does not think that.

Really? So we all just imagined the remarks he made?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
Why unfortunate? Religious convictions and ones stance are simply another piece of qualifications to be weighed by the electorate.

Because I don't believe that religion has any place in a secular society.

Quoting GDB (Reply 22):
Probably a damn sight more than those who cannot tell the difference between North and South Korea - for the second time in two years, who think Steven Hawking would have been long dead had he been under the British Health System, who think FDR created the Great Depression (presumably also thinking that WW2 started in 1945) and much much more, not even worthy of a search to remind of such inanities.

  
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windy95
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:37 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 10):
Because they want to turn the US into a Christian version of Iran.

Also, many of them probably regard the passing of the 1964 Civil Rights Act as a day of infamy almost on a par with Pearl Harbour.

Still nothing to back these claims up with? Unless you have a way of proving that "many" of them probably do then you still do not know what you are talking about.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 24):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 19):
And no Rand Paul does not think that.

Really? So we all just imagined the remarks he made?

It is not "we all" but left wingers who want to put their "spin" on what he said. Using the term "we" assumes everyone agrees with your take on it. What did he say that was so bad? That parts of the CRA are not perfect? That private businesses should be able to hire who they want? Wow what an evil man thinking that parts of the CRA may take away rights of others.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:52 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 24):
Because I don't believe that religion has any place in a secular society.

Like it or not, we are a religious people and religion serves as the underpinning of how we define much in life and society. As such its natural religion would play important role in our politics.
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windy95
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:53 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 26):
As such its natural religion would play important role in our politics.

And always has been.
 
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OA412
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:54 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 26):
Like it or not, we are a religious people and religion serves as the underpinning of how we define much in life and society. As such its natural religion would play important role in our politics.

People in this country may be religious, but our government is supposed to be secular in nature. As such, I do not believe that religion should play any part in the election process. I don't care whether a candidate is religious or not, that has no bearing on how I will vote, what I do care about is what that candidate plans to do for this country.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 27):
And always has been.

No it hasn't. The founding fathers were hardly religious.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
It is not "we all" but left wingers who want to put their "spin" on what he said.

Ah yes, it was "spun" and "taken out of context". How very typical. When asked whether or not he agreed with the desegration at lunch counters brought about by the Civil Rights Act of 1964, did he or did he not reply with the following?:
“Does the owner of the restaurant own his restaurant? Or does the government own his restaurant? These are important philosophical debates but not a very practical discussion.”

What exactly is he saying other than restaurant owners should have the right to refuse service to Blacks?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Using the term "we" assumes everyone agrees with your take on it.

Is that so? I'm talking about all fair minded Americans (left and right) who were abhorred by his comments. You see, I don't see the world only as left vs right as you seem to.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
What did he say that was so bad? That parts of the CRA are not perfect? That private businesses should be able to hire who they want? Wow what an evil man thinking that parts of the CRA may take away rights of others.

So, in essence, you agree with his bigoted viewpoint. How does desegregating lunch counters take rights aw.ay from others? Are we talking about the rights of whites not to have to sit at the same lunch counter as those pesky blacks?
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Superfly
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:45 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 28):
People in this country may be religious, but our government is supposed to be secular in nature.


You are correct.
However, I don't think Obama is as secular as he is letting us on to believe. If he is truly secular, he seems to have an affinity or soft spot for a certain religious/political ideology. That is just my own personal opinion and we'll probably never see eye to eye on this.
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soon7x7
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:52 am

Quoting Quokka (Reply 14):
I have been moved to tears by pieces of music where I don't even speak the language. Does that make me a duck or a parrot?

Don't know...hows your "plumage?"

Quoting avent (Reply 20):
What you attribute to Obama is really tolerance and reaching out.

Think you too are confused,...the American people have exhibited an incredible tolerance for this ...uh ...leader?
The only reaching he does is for a mirror...
 
Quokka
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:20 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 30):
Don't know...hows your "plumage?"


A bit ruffled at the moment and some of it is falling out. 

While some people are obviously worried by suspicions that Obama may be a closet Muslim, and others say his Christianity is simply for show, what would be the attitude towards him if he were from a Jewish background? Would that result in claims that he was unsuitable because of Judaism's rejection of Christ as the Messiah?
 
Superfly
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:51 am

Quoting Quokka (Reply 31):
While some people are obviously worried by suspicions that Obama may be a closet Muslim


For obvious reasons.  
Quoting Quokka (Reply 31):
Christianity is simply for show, what would be the attitude towards him if he were from a Jewish background?


But he is not Jewish so the question is moot. Since you brought it up, IF Obama were Jewish, he wouldn't feel a need to hide it. He would be very open about it just as Joe Leiberman and Al Franken. Obama hasn't come clean on this issue and his actions give his critics a lot of credibility. If Obama was a peace loving Muslim, he would be very open about being Muslim and try show that he is a good example of a peace loving Muslim. People get suspicious when you attempt to hide things.
Besides, Jews have not waged a Jihad and sneaking bombs on to aircraft.
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cargolex
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:39 am

Bush II, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, and Nixon

Clinton and Reagan may not have been big on Religion in the true-believer, but Carter and Bush 43 very much were. Carter is a Born-again and often openly discussed religion in his administration - though he understood that Religion should not interfere with governance. But Carter was, and is, a deeply religious man who once commented on the record in an interview that he felt that merely looking at women other than his wife in a lustful way was nearly tantamount to adultery. Carter is a Southern Baptist.

Bush 43 is also a Born-again and often talked about and acted on Religious issues during his Presidency - including the creation of "faith-based initiatives" that were almost exclusively directed at the protestant community and acting on holding back things like Stem Cell Research because of Religious concerns. I'm sure I don't need to remind you of Terry Schiavo either, do I? George W. Bush is a member of the United Methodist Church.

Nixon was Quaker and one of only two Presidents to belong to this unique sect (the other was Herbert Hoover). For many years, his strong Quaker upbringing and values, which were quite conservative, led him to take the personal view that the greatest injustices in American society were caused by Racism - which he was directly exposed to when growing up in California, not far from major hotbeds of KKK activity in the 1920s. In 1968, however, he knowingly pursued what became known as the "Southern strategy" - exploiting the anger of predominantly White southerners over the Civil Rights act of 1964. It was only one thing about Nixon's religious upbringing that he gradually abandoned over his years in public life. If George W. Bush took his Religion a little too far in office, Richard Nixon went the other way and allowed office to overcome his Religion. In the end, when his friend Billy Graham reviewed Nixon's infamous oval office tapes, he was stunned to learn how far Nixon had strayed from anything approaching his earlier faith.


The fact that he tries to hide his religious beliefs is what concerns me. That combined with his close associations with Islam makes this issue a very legitimate concern.

He's made not attempt to hide that he's a Christian. In fact, for people who don't like Obama, he's kind of screwed no matter what he says. If he talks about going to church, they slam him for comments made by Reverend Wright. If he doesn't talk about going to church, he must be a Muslim.

He isn't hiding anything, but that doesn't stop people from simply making crazy things up in lame attempts to undermine him or deligitimize him.

The most disturbing revelation in the OP's link is that one in five Americans are apparently gullible enough to believe this man is a Muslim when he clearly is not.

Think you too are confused,...the American people have exhibited an incredible tolerance for this ...uh ...leader?

President Bush reached out to Muslims as well - in fact it was one of the things he did best during his tenure - making sure that American Muslims were treated fairly and did not feel disenfranchised in their own country. Obama reaching out to Muslims may have something to do with, I dunno, the enormous conflict our country seems to have with certain elements within the Muslim world.

For obvious reasons.

I have yet to see any indication at all that our President is anything but an ordinary American Christian.

Obama hasn't come clean on this issue and his actions give his critics a lot of credibility.

Sure he has. He doesn't lack credibility on the issue at all, it's crystal clear. He's shown alot of people his birth certificate too. He's not a Muslim. Get. Over. It.

Besides, Jews have not waged a Jihad and sneaking bombs on to aircraft.

How extremely tolerant. So all Muslims are now responsible for the actions of a few? Should I treat all Christians as homophobes now? Or Anti-semites? How about all Germans as Anti-semites?

The rampant Islamophobia on the American right wing is disturbing to me as a person with a Jewish background. Once upon a time, people's attitudes towards Jews ran in exactly these directions. And I'm not talking about Nazi Germany. I'm talking about the United States of Leo Frank and the Red Scare, and of Father Coughlin - the Glenn Beck of the 1930's.
 
Superfly
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:52 am

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 33):
He's not a Muslim. Get. Over. It.


Never said he was but as I said before, he has an affinity for that religion/political ideology. It concerns me a lot because I voted for him and he is our President.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 33):
How extremely tolerant.

The rampant Islamophobia on the American right wing is disturbing




I'm a left-winger.
As a liberal, I am skeptical of religion in general so why should I give Islam a free pass?
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OA412
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:58 am

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 33):
But Carter was, and is, a deeply religious man who once commented on the record in an interview that he felt that merely looking at women other than his wife in a lustful way was nearly tantamount to adultery.

Ah yes, the infamous Playboy interview. 
Quoting CargoLex (Reply 33):
The most disturbing revelation in the OP's link is that one in five Americans are apparently gullible enough to believe this man is a Muslim when he clearly is not.

Indeed. It saddens me to no end that some people are so willing to believe anything reported about President Obama no matter how ludicrous it may be.
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LAXintl
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:10 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 28):
People in this country may be religious, but our government is supposed to be secular in nature. As such, I do not believe that religion should play any part in the election process. I don't care whether a candidate is religious or not, that has no bearing on how I will vote, what I do care about is what that candidate plans to do for this country.

Well people are the religion, and since politics is the people also, its only normal for them to be intertwined.
You simply cannot separate or turnoff ones religion and beliefs just because you are in polling place.
Matter of fact I would say that not voting one conscience or your core beliefs because they might be religious also would be terrible as one would be betraying the things you hold sacred and key in life. There is no shame in being religious, or having certain belief's which might be in line with Church doctrine.

Anyhow, I don't know how man cannot mix religion in as a basis for understanding in society. Much of what we consider as customs or norms in America is based on our Judeo Christian theology.
Quoting CargoLex (Reply 33):
Reagan may not have been big on Religion in the true-believer

Oh Reagan was quite committed to religion, his faith and Christian identity. While maybe not very public about it, religion provided the context and framed issues for him. From those that I know, the Reagan White House was probably the most religious in modern times including prayer session before most events including cabinet meetings.

There was a book written about it. Here is a news story at the time.

From Sunday-school teacher to Oval Office occupant, author Paul Kengor reveals, Ronald Reagan remained deeply devoted to his faith and based his policies on it
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m..._m1571/is_2004_May_11/ai_n6143344/
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Superfly
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:44 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 35):
It saddens me to no end that some people are so willing to believe anything reported about President Obama no matter how ludicrous it may be.


Don't let other people's ignorance "sadden" you.
While I still want to believe that Obama is not a Muslim, his actions as well as what is defined by Islam suggest that he very well could be.
In Islam, if your father is a Muslim, then you are indeed a Muslim. His biological father who did not raise him is a Muslim and the man who filled the role of his father was also a Muslim. He was listed as a Muslim at the Catholic school he attended and at the Madrasa he attended in Malaysia.
His actions such as bowing to the Saudi King, multiple quotes from the Quran, refusal to use the term "Islamic terrorist" and his rush to defend Islam at every opportunity. All of this fuels the argument that he could possibly be one.
Obama is a fantastic speaker and when he quotes the Quran, his speeches are flawless as if he's been reading that book his entire life. Yet seems to stumble when talking about the budget and spurring economic growth.
Some like to pretend that only the racist feel this way but that is far from the truth.
If Obama was 8th generation Black American that was descendant from slaves, raised in the US and had a more conventional name, no one would question or even care much of his religious affiliations.
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cargolex
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:50 am

Sad

I don't really care what people think, but it is sad that so many Americans are taken in by this stuff. Sad for the rest of us because these people apparently vote, and that has consequences.

While I still want to believe that Obama is not a Muslim, his actions as well as what is defined by Islam suggest that he very well could be.

I really don't see what "actions" you're referring to. There's absolutely zero evidence that he's a Muslim....because he's not a Muslim.

In Islam, if your father is a Muslim, then you are indeed a Muslim.

Technically in Judaism if you're Mother is Jewish, so are you. But if you're not raised Jewish, don't consider yourself Jewish, and never think about Judaism, are you Jewish? If you're born into a specific caste in India but go to live in Sweden at age 2 and stay there you're whole life, does that caste really matter? Technically perhaps, but this is America, not Israel and not Saudi Arabia and not India. And we have freedom of choice here and freedom of Religion. And freedom from it.

His biological father who did not raise him is a Muslim and the man who filled the role of his father was also a Muslim.

So what? My father was raised in a STRONGLY Catholic home in Europe. He's an Athiest. So what?

He was listed as a Muslim at the Catholic school he attended and at the Madrasa he attended in Malaysia.

A secular school, not a Madrasah in the sense that Americans would be familiar with that word. Spreading the idea that Obama attended a "Madrasah" just lends credence to this absurd theory. Now it happens that the word for "school" in Arabic is Madrasah - but that's not the whole story. There are several kinds of Madrasah, only two of which connote religious education - dīniyyah and Islāmiyyah. Technically speaking there are Medical schools that are Madrasahs.

Conservatives seem to love talking about how Obama attended a Madrasah - and you know, we haven't been hearing about terrorist-breeding Madrasahs on TV for about a decade now, have we?

His actions such as bowing to the Saudi King

Nixon bowed to Emporer Hirohito. Does that mean Nixon was a traitor to his country? I guess I don't understand how a part of normal state protocol somehow makes you a Muslim. I'm pretty sure President Bush bowed to the Saudi King as well, especially considering how buddy-buddy he is with Prince Bandar.

multiple quotes from the Quran

Multiple quotes from the Quran where? In what context?

I won't even address the notion that he can't speak clearly about economics but can recite the Quran as if from memory. That's just patently false.

refusal to use the term "Islamic terrorist"

I don't recall President Bush using that term very frequently either. Perhaps this is because both of these Presidents understand that not all terrorists are Muslims, and not all Muslims are terrorists, and that granting a platform and legitimacy to terrorists is not a good thing.

Some like to pretend that only the racist feel this way but that is far from the truth.

No, I think it's fairly close to the truth. The people who seem to most want to link Obama and Islam are the people who seem to have the hardest time accepting that this person could be elected President and who seem to have the most outlandish theories about him - things which, were they not so often repeated by the right wing echo chamber, would have been dismissed as ludicrous delusions by now.

If Obama was 8th generation Black American that was descendant from slaves, raised in the US and had a more conventional name, no one would question or even care much of his religious affiliations.

Actually, I'm sure they would. I think his name happens to give people a convenient excuse to try and link him to things which have become publicly defined as America's worst enemies. And I think this entire theory that he's secretly a Muslim is entirely, totally, 100% without merit and the kind of thing people come up with when they have no legitimate arguments at the ready.

I'll say it again - he's (still) not a Muslim.

[Edited 2010-11-28 23:56:26]
 
Superfly
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:12 am

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 38):
Actually, I'm sure they would.


No doubt, they'd find something else to pick on him about.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 38):
I don't recall President Bush using that term very frequently either. Perhaps this is because both of these Presidents understand that not all terrorists are Muslims, and not all Muslims are terrorists, and that granting a platform and legitimacy to terrorists is not a good thing.


Not comparing Obama to W Bush.
By the way, Dubya was the worst President ever.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 38):
That's just patently false.
Quoting CargoLex (Reply 38):
I really don't see what "actions" you're referring to.


Lot's of information out there. I don't have the time to dig up every piece of information out there especially since you have your mind made up on this issue. It's only right-wing sources that talk about this so of course you'd shoot down the source.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 38):
Multiple quotes from the Quran where? In what context?


Does it matter?
He is very comfortable around them. Personally I think his associations are too close for comfort.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 38):
So what? My father was raised in a STRONGLY Catholic home in Europe. He's an Athiest. So what?


Exactly, so what?

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 38):
Conservatives seem to love talking about how Obama........


Ok that line is getting old. I am far from a conservative and even I'm a bit suspicious about Obama's associations.

I honestly don't know what his religious beliefs are. It probably doesn't matter at this point. He is the President now and I hope he has America's best interest at top priority. I voted for the guy, so far I'm not that impressed. We shall see come November 2012.
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gosimeon
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:26 am

Don't see what the debate is here. He has stated his Christian faith and attended a Christian church long before he was elected to office.

I also don't see why it should be an issue. Surely as an American he is entitled to pursue his faith as he sees fit?

Finally, his policies are certainly Christian in nature (ie. avoiding getting into wars rather than starting them!)
 
cargolex
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:58 am

Does it matter?
He is very comfortable around them. Personally I think his associations are too close for comfort.


If you're going to make claims like "he can recite the Quran but becomes tongue-tied in speeches about the economy" yeah it kind of does matter.

Not comparing Obama to W Bush.

There's no way not to when speaking about the actions and attitude of the office of the Presidency in the post-9/11 world.

since you have your mind made up on this issue.

And I have to tell you, it wasn't hard to figure out.

It's only right-wing sources that talk about this

Perhaps there's a reason for that. Such as legitimate sources don't consider this to be credible.

Exactly, so what?

It was you who brought it up. If it doesn't matter, why bring it up?

I honestly don't know what his religious beliefs are.

I just don't understand how that can be. He's stated again and again that he's a Christian. He's attended Christian churches for years.

What's the more likely scenario here, that he's a closet Muslim and thousands of people are involved in a grand conspiracy to hide this, or that he's just a not-that-committed Christian, like many Americans?

Occam's razor.

so far I'm not that impressed.

Neither am I, but issues like this are not why. In fact, I wish people would talk about the substantive things rather than wing-nut stuff like "he's a closet Muslim."
 
N1120A
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:03 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):

Considering his upbringing, yes it does.

That is an unequivocally bigoted position, especially considering his upbringing.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 19):

And no Rand Paul does not think that.

Yes he does, and you know it. Then again, he already changed his stripes on pork.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 24):

Because I don't believe that religion has any place in a secular society.

Well, certainly not in secular government.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
That private businesses should be able to hire who they want?

That they shouldn't be able to discriminate. Big difference.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 28):

So, in essence, you agree with his bigoted viewpoint. How does desegregating lunch counters take rights aw.ay from others? Are we talking about the rights of whites not to have to sit at the same lunch counter as those pesky blacks?

Exactly.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 32):

Besides, Jews have not waged a Jihad and sneaking bombs on to aircraft.

Not airplanes, but ever heard of these guys?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League

FAR more terrorist attacks on US soil than even Al Qaeda.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):

I'm a left-winger.

Don't act like it.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
As a liberal, I am skeptical of religion in general so why should I give Islam a free pass?

1) Not all "liberals" are skeptical of religion. I know lots of very devout Catholics, Jews and Moslems who are quite "liberal."

2) It isn't about a free pass. It is about equality.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):

Ok that line is getting old. I am far from a conservative and even I'm a bit suspicious about Obama's associations.

That is because, and lets be honest, you harbor significant prejudice toward one religious group.
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Superfly
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:13 am

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 41):
Exactly, so what?

It was you who brought it up. If it doesn't matter, why bring it up?


Islam is much different than Judaism and Catholicism but of course some like to pretend that they're 'all the same'.
I just brought up one of the many reasons why many people are suspicious of his religious affiliations and attitude dealing with Muslims.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 41):
Perhaps there's a reason for that. Such as legitimate sources don't consider this to be credible.


So are you saying only left-wing new sources have credibility?

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 41):
In fact, I wish people would talk about the substantive things rather than wing-nut stuff like "he's a closet Muslim."


I agree. There is a whole lot more to talk about than this. Since the topic came up, I gave my opinion and take on things. Big deal. It's a discussion board. Not everyone is going to see eye to eye on every issue.
I'd be more than happy to discuss my biggest gripes with Obama but it would be 'off-topic' in this thread.
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N1120A
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:17 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):

Islam is much different than Judaism and Catholicism but of course some like to pretend that they're 'all the same'.

Its not "much different." They are all the same hocus pocus, except that Judaism leaves out half the garbage about the afterlife but quadruples the isolationism.
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Superfly
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:24 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 44):
Its not "much different." They are all the same hocus pocus, except that Judaism leaves out half the garbage about the afterlife but quadruples the isolationism.

Yep, that's it.  
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OA412
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:30 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
Quoting OA412 (Reply 24):
Because I don't believe that religion has any place in a secular society.
Well, certainly not in secular government.

Yes, yes, that's what I meant.  
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Kiwirob
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:22 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
If Obama was 8th generation Black American that was descendant from slaves, raised in the US and had a more conventional name, no one would question or even care much of his religious affiliations.

Just wondering here, I always thought to be a Black American you had to be a decendant of slaves, so can Obama really be considered Black American?

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 38):
If you're born into a specific caste in India but go to live in Sweden at age 2 and stay there you're whole life, does that caste really matter?

The Indian caste system has followed Indians all the way around the world, it doesn't matter what country the Indian is living in.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:02 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):

I'm a left-winger.

Don't act like it.

Just because he's no muslim apologist, as most of other lefties for some unknown reason choose to be, disqualifies him from being one?  
 
racko
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RE: Obama's True Religion

Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:47 pm

The USA are a very religious country, so of course they'll only vote for someone who they perceive as Christian. If you actually believe that stuff from their point of view this is perfectly reasonable.

On the other hand, there are plenty of countries where talking about what God promised Noah or what Allah wants you to do will end your political career pretty quickly.

You can change your government, you can't change your electorate.

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