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Aaron747
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USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:47 pm

Ugh, what *is* it with these guys? Man up and join 2010 already. They have surveyed service members and there is clearly no majority issue here. I just read these comments and can't begin to wade through the parade of BS...my eyes rolled from here to the mainland coast.

“Based on what I know about the very tough fight on the ground in Afghanistan, the almost singular focus of our combat forces as they train up and deploy into theater, the necessary tightly woven culture of those combat forces that we are asking so much of at this time and finally the direct feedback from the survey, my recommendation is that we should not implement repeal at this time,” Amos said in prepared testimony for the Senate Armed Services Committee.

Did Gen. Amos and Gates read the same survey?? Yes, USMC members expressed the most opposition at 40-something %, but that's still not a majority. Did he somehow gloss over the part about the ~90% who had served with people they knew to be gay that were either neutral or reported no problems in their unit cohesion? It just boggles the mind. People want to serve their country - f*cking let them do it already without impediment.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1210/45917.html
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:06 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
People want to serve their country - f*cking let them do it already without impediment.

Seriously. As if they don't have enough problems recruiting people already. Granted, if they repeal this, it's not like people from the LGBT community will come in stampedes looking to serve, but it surely must boost recruitment in one way or another.
 
MattRB
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:40 pm

Quoting Gen. Amos (Thread starter):
Based on what I know about the very tough fight on the ground in Afghanistan, the almost singular focus of our combat forces as they train up and deploy into theater, the necessary tightly woven culture of those combat forces that we are asking so much of at this time and finally the direct feedback from the survey, my recommendation is that we should not implement repeal at this time,” Amos said in prepared testimony for the Senate Armed Services Committee.

So, if DADT is repealed, the grunts are going to be more worried about dropping the soap in the shower and its potential consequences rather than the Taliban guys raining mortars and deploying IEDs around them?
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
ual777
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:55 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):

Did Gen. Amos and Gates read the same survey?? Yes, USMC members expressed the most opposition at 40-something %, but that's still not a majority. Did he somehow gloss over the part about the ~90% who had served with people they knew to be gay that were either neutral or reported no problems in their unit cohesion? It just boggles the mind. People want to serve their country - f*cking let them do it already without impediment.

I heard that Marine opposition was about 60%. I do not think the Marine Corps is ready for this having personally been to Parris Island. Each branch has it's own culture and the USMC culture is very..mmmm...not-gay friendly. In an environment where you must refer to yourself and others as "this recruit" and "that recruit" and are not allowed to say "I", "he" "she", "you" etc. and men and women are trained separately, allowing openly gay recruits could create issues. On Parris Island, just wearing the BCGs (Birth Control Glasses) can get you a lot of extra attention from the DIs that you don't want.

It is also somewhat common for recruits to be struck by DIs and called a vulgar symphony of words (many of which are gay-related).

So if you are gay and want to serve in the Corps...fine. Just keep it to yourself.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
Ken777
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:07 pm

Quoting ual777 (Reply 3):
I heard that Marine opposition was about 60%.

That leaves about 40% with a brain.  

I can understand the Marines being a bit backward, but the USAF? After all the screwing around they have done with the tanker program one would think that they would be oblivious to how their personnel were screwing around.
 
Alias1024
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:20 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 4):
I can understand the Marines being a bit backward, but the USAF?

This is the same USAF that's repeatedly been in trouble for cadets having religion shoved down their throats at the Air Force Academy.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
ozglobal
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:00 pm

Quoting ual777 (Reply 3):
I heard that Marine opposition was about 60%.

Where, on Fox News? "Some people are saying...", "I heard", "A lot of people think..".

The report is online. No taste for facts?

You identify USMC as the most negative and here are their most negative results:

"Question 75b. If Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell is repealed and you are working with a Service member in your immediate unit who has said he or she is gay or lesbian, how, if at all, would it affect your immediate unit’s readiness?"

Marine Corps Total 70% Neutral or Positive

Marine Combat 68.5% Neutral or Positive

"Question 68a. If Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell is repealed and you are working with a Service member in your immediate unit who has said he or she is gay or lesbian, how, if at all, would it affect... How Service members in your immediate unit work together to get the job done?"

Marine Corps Total 57.2% Neutral or Positive

Marine Combat 43% Neutral or Positive

From the report: "First and foremost, successful implementation of a repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell requires strong leadership, a clear message, and proactive training and education. Throughout our engagements with the force, we heard from general and flag officers and senior enlisted leaders in all the Services, including those strongly opposed to changing the law and policy, words to the effect of “If the law changes, we can do this; just give us the tools to communicate a clear message.” Further, leaders must demonstrate to Service members that they are committed to implementing this change, and that the leaders expect Service members to adapt as well. Messages like the one from the Commandant of the Marine Corps, that if repeal comes the Marines will “get in step and do it smartly,”344 must continue...."
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
ual777
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:37 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):

Marine Combat 43% Neutral or Positive
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):


Marine Combat 68.5% Neutral or Positive

Almost 60% on the second question. Further, I wonder what the numbers are for only positive? There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 4):

That leaves about 40% with a brain.

I can understand the Marines being a bit backward, but the USAF? After all the screwing around they have done with the tanker program one would think that they would be oblivious to how their personnel were screwing around.

40% with a brain? Did you serve in the USMC? What qualifies you to make that statement?
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
ozglobal
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:43 pm

Quoting ual777 (Reply 7):

Almost 60% on the second question. Further, I wonder what the numbers are for only positive? There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics.

You join a discussion about a statistical survey, quote statistics to support (you suppose) your point, then call statistics "lies"....   
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
ual777
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:47 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):

You join a discussion about a statistical survey, quote statistics to support (you suppose) your point, then call statistics "lies"....

No, my point was that neutral and positive were lumped together. Having them separated gives a better overall view of the survey.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
Scorpio
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:01 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 7):
40% with a brain? Did you serve in the USMC? What qualifies you to make that statement?

...being in possession of said brain?

This is 2010. Most Western countries have openly gay soldiers serving, with no major issues. There's no reason the US would be radically different.

Don't feel 'comfortable' around a gay person? That's YOUR fault, not the gay person's. So it's up to you to fix it, the gays who want to serve shouldn't be punished for your insecurity.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:52 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 7):
Almost 60% on the second question. Further, I wonder what the numbers are for only positive?

Not significant as neutral clearly implies 'not negative'. For the purposes of the study the responses, as reported, are sufficient. The data was likely broken down internally but this is how it's being reported for brevity.

Also it would seem the USMC combat respondents are confused about their own thinking on the matter since ~60% seem to have concerns about 'getting the job done' yet ~70% say unit readiness would be unaffected. Not very logical.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 3):
So if you are gay and want to serve in the Corps...fine. Just keep it to yourself.

Sorry, but that's USMC supremacy mindset nonsense. If one is committed to the Corps, they should care about what's good for the Corps, not what their personal feelings or opinions on other members of the Corps may or may not be. What the hell is the point of unit cohesion then? This is the same crap people pulled when they were integrating blacks. There are a lot of things that may be uncomfortable or undesirable to an individual in the military - but if you want in, you'll deal with it. Everyone should have their fair shot without having to hide. Period.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Mir
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:53 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 9):
No, my point was that neutral and positive were lumped together. Having them separated gives a better overall view of the survey.

In this case, it makes sense to lump them together, since for all intents and purposes, if you don't have an opinion one way or the other on repealing DADT, it's as good as a vote in favor. The biggest argument against it is that it would ruin unit cohesion, so if you get a lot of people who don't really care, you defeat that argument just the same.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ual777
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:28 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 10):

...being in possession of said brain?

This is 2010. Most Western countries have openly gay soldiers serving, with no major issues. There's no reason the US would be radically different.

Don't feel 'comfortable' around a gay person? That's YOUR fault, not the gay person's. So it's up to you to fix it, the gays who want to serve shouldn't be punished for your insecurity.

You are missing the point. USMC culture is not open towards gays. I can give examples but it involves some "colorful" qoutations. Further, why should Marines have to shower in the nude with gays? Should women shower with the men then?

In addition, the Marine Corps is not like most other western countries. It is about 25% percent the size of the army including reserves, but has taken proportionally higher casualties than any other branch in Iraq. People join the Army for bonuses. People join the Marines to fight.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):

Sorry, but that's USMC supremacy mindset nonsense. If one is committed to the Corps, they should care about what's good for the Corps, not what their personal feelings or opinions on other members of the Corps may or may not be. What the hell is the point of unit cohesion then? This is the same crap people pulled when they were integrating blacks. There are a lot of things that may be uncomfortable or undesirable to an individual in the military - but if you want in, you'll deal with it. Everyone should have their fair shot without having to hide. Period.

So, the VAST (probably over 98%) majority of Marines should just suck it up so some new gay recruit feels comfortable and welcome? This isn't summer camp; its the Marine Corps. Different is bad and having to train under high amounts of stress knowing that some guy could be checking you out, and is "different" is bad for the Corps.

The larger question is what is gay? A preference? A disease? a medical condition? what is it?
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
Mir
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:44 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
So, the VAST (probably over 98%) majority of Marines should just suck it up so some new gay recruit feels comfortable and welcome?

Would you mind citing a source for that 98% comment?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
The larger question is what is gay? A preference? A disease? a medical condition? what is it?

None of the above. It's a genetic trait, much like eye or hair color.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Quokka
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:52 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
USMC culture is not open towards gays.

So, if the USMC culture is one that is hostile to gays, it should be allowed to continue to be so? The USMC should be allowed to be exempt from any laws prescribing equal treatment? That the juvenile insecurities of those who may be scared that someone might "hit on them" should take precedence over the right of another citizen to enlist and serve?

As you yourself said, it isn't a summer camp. Are we really meant to believe that as shells are raining down, or as men are pinned down by sniper fire, the sole thought going through a Marine's mind is whether his buddy is going to suddenly feel the urge to rape him or invite him out on a date? If that is the case, I would question his priorities and recommend a psychological assessment.
 
Maverick623
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:16 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 9):
No, my point was that neutral and positive were lumped together

So long as the effect isn't negative, what's the matter?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 3):

It is also somewhat common for recruits to be struck by DIs and called a vulgar symphony of words (many of which are gay-related).

So? Like you said:

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
This isn't summer camp; its the Marine Corps.

If someone can't hack it, they don't belong. Period. That includes you, if you can't deal with knowing a gay person is showering next to you. And I can pretty much guarantee that if you were ever in the Corps (or any other branch), you had a gay person in your unit at one time or another.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 3):

So if you are gay and want to serve in the Corps...fine. Just keep it to yourself.

And if you're a gay-hater and want to serve in the Corps, YOU keep it to YOURSELF. You are not special just because you're straight. Suck it up and get it done right or go home. THAT'S the Marine Corps culture.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
People join the Army for bonuses. People join the Marines to fight.

Right.... because the Marines don't give bonuses, and the Army doesn't fight. Are you for real, kid?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
The larger question is what is gay? A preference? A disease? a medical condition? what is it?

I mean, seriously, are you for real? Please tell me there's some hidden satire or irony in that question.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
USMC culture

Is something you obviously know jack sh*t about.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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Aaron747
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:19 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
Further, why should Marines have to shower in the nude with gays?

Is the average Marine so insecure about his own sexuality that he can't tolerate showering in front of a gay man? Give me a freakin' break. If some dude were checking me out, I'd take it as an ego boost in a world full of uglies. Any less of a reaction just means you're afraid of something which is childish and crude.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
People join the Marines to fight

Wouldn't be any different with a gay guy who signed up...come on now.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
comfortable and welcome?

Nobody's talking about 'comfortable and welcome'. There's nothing comfortable about the Marine Corps. But it's nice to be able to deal with other people you're going to be working with on the level.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
Different is bad and having to train under high amounts of stress knowing that some guy could be checking you out, and is "different" is bad for the Corps.

Wrong attitude for a Marine. All you need to be concerned about as a Marine is whether or not the guy next to you can do their job and save your life if the situation calls for it.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
The larger question is what is gay? A preference? A disease? a medical condition? what is it?

This proves what is at the heart of any opposition to something that otherwise makes total sense: ignorance.

It's unbelievable that people think suddenly having gays serving openly is going to somehow mean games of grab-ass in the shower and men kissing men in the barracks. Do you see the married guys getting heavy with their wives while cavorting all over the base? Hell no. Want to know what gay is?? People living their lives - just like you.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
ual777
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:16 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):

Would you mind citing a source for that 98% comment?

I mean't the 98% percent who weren't gay.

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):

None of the above. It's a genetic trait, much like eye or hair color.
Quoting Quokka (Reply 15):

So, if the USMC culture is one that is hostile to gays, it should be allowed to continue to be so? The USMC should be allowed to be exempt from any laws prescribing equal treatment? That the juvenile insecurities of those who may be scared that someone might "hit on them" should take precedence over the right of another citizen to enlist and serve?

As you yourself said, it isn't a summer camp. Are we really meant to believe that as shells are raining down, or as men are pinned down by sniper fire, the sole thought going through a Marine's mind is whether his buddy is going to suddenly feel the urge to rape him or invite him out on a date? If that is the case, I would question his priorities and recommend a psychological assessment.

This argument is oversimplified. It extends beyond the moment of combat. It extends far before that during the constant training process. It is a distraction, at least to the 58% of combat Marines who answered, and it is a distraction the Corps doesn't need right now. Notice the generals have all said "now is not the time." Not "no, not ever."

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):

If someone can't hack it, they don't belong. Period. That includes you, if you can't deal with knowing a gay person is showering next to you. And I can pretty much guarantee that if you were ever in the Corps (or any other branch), you had a gay person in your unit at one time or another.

I can guarantee you I have been and I have the DD-214 to prove it.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):

And if you're a gay-hater and want to serve in the Corps, YOU keep it to YOURSELF. You are not special just because you're straight. Suck it up and get it done right or go home. THAT'S the Marine Corps culture.

Are you now insinuating I am a gay hater?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):

Right.... because the Marines don't give bonuses, and the Army doesn't fight. Are you for real, kid?

Its metaphorical "kid." Maybe if YOU had been in a branch of the military you would know the Army often offers enlistment bonuses in excess of $60,000 dollars. The largest I ever saw the Corps offer was $5,000. To spell it out for you: A LOT MORE PEOPLE JOIN THE ARMY FOR THE EXTRA MONEY THAN THEY DO JOIN THE MARINES.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):

I mean, seriously, are you for real? Please tell me there's some hidden satire or irony in that question.

There is. The whole point of it was how is being "gay" defined? You ask 5 different people you get 5 different answers.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):

Is something you obviously know jack sh*t about.

I think you owe me a serious apology. I know enough having been in the Corps and I love the Corps. As for Parris Island, I was "in the back". Now you tell me if you know what I'm talking about. Further, maybe if your reading skills improved, I did not in any post say I did not support it. I said Marine Corps culture didn't. So learn how to read before you tell me I don't know shit about something. I am stunned at your hateful speech regarding an opposing opinion.

Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
The biggest argument against it is that it would ruin unit cohesion, so if you get a lot of people who don't really care, you defeat that argument just the same.

Again, an oversimplified argument. 40% of the Marine Corps is 100,000 Marines. That is a big number and a lot of those Marines in leadership positions have been around since the First Gulf War or Panama. Now, if this could in any way influence their decision not to re-enlist then the Marine Corps loses that valuable experience. I do not care if it is an ignorant opinion or not, but good leadership saves lives on the battlefield.



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 17):

Wrong attitude for a Marine. All you need to be concerned about as a Marine is whether or not the guy next to you can do their job and save your life if the situation calls for it.

Wrong. To quote General Patton:

"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team.
This individuality stuff is a bunch of bullshit."
- General George Patton Jr

In the Marine Corps, different gets noticed and that is bad.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 17):

This proves what is at the heart of any opposition to something that otherwise makes total sense: ignorance.

It's unbelievable that people think suddenly having gays serving openly is going to somehow mean games of grab-ass in the shower and men kissing men in the barracks. Do you see the married guys getting heavy with their wives while cavorting all over the base? Hell no. Want to know what gay is?? People living their lives - just like you.

It was a rhetorical question. The point being from another viewpoint it can be seen the same as any genetic disorder, lifestyle choice (Pacifist), disease (HIV), or general behavioral disorder. That means the military can block it if it so chooses.


I'm sorry if I did not articulate my point well enough, but to lay it out for all of you: I personally do not care if someone is gay or not in the Marine Corps, but a lot of Marines do. Should the rule change? Yes, but not in a time of war that is at a critical juncture.

Are many Marines bigoted against gays? Oh hell yes. However, the Marine Corps and the type of culture it has allows it and it doesn't make these men (or women) bad Marines. I think instead of blanketing the Marine Corps with calls of ignorance and bigotry etc, people here WHO HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED A DAY IN THE CORPS should listen to the guy testifying with four stars on his shoulder because chances are he knows what he is talking about.

But hey, what do I know? I was only a member of 3rd Battalion, "Killer" Kilo Company, Platoon 3038, MCRD Parris Island.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
Scorpio
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:24 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
You are missing the point.

No, you are. If the USMC is 'not open to gays', then that's THEIR fault, not that of the gays. And therefore, up to THEM to change, not up to the gay people wanting to serve.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
I can give examples but it involves some "colorful" qoutations.

Along the same lines of the "colorful" quotations that could no doubt be heard in that very same USMC around the time they started thinking about integrating blacks into the armed forces. Ignorance and xenophobia are not excuses.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
Further, why should Marines have to shower in the nude with gays?

They already are. And guess what: they've survived! If you're so insecure about your sexuality that showering with a gay person scares the hell out of you, you are probably not very stable emotionally, and it makes me wonder whether you belong in the USMC in the first place. I have gay colleagues, and I've showered with them. I'm comfortable enough with my own sexuality to not let that bother me in the least. And so are most other people.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
In addition, the Marine Corps is not like most other western countries. It is about 25% percent the size of the army including reserves, but has taken proportionally higher casualties than any other branch in Iraq. People join the Army for bonuses. People join the Marines to fight.

And this has... what exactly to do with gay people?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
I mean't the 98% percent who weren't gay.

Wow, didn't know you represented the straight Marines. What an awfully broad brush to paint with, to assume that all, or even a majority, of straight people would need to do any "sucking it up" to make gay people feel welcome. What incredible arrogance to assume everyone's like you.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
Notice the generals have all said "now is not the time." Not "no, not ever."

"Now is not the time" means "no, not ever". It's called stalling for time. They'll always have an excuse to say that "now is not the time". Pretty much every other western country has taken the step, and they've done so successfully. It's already a crying shame that the country that feels the need to lecture everyone about freedom and equality and shout it off every rooftop blatantly discriminates in its own forces, and that people like you continue to make excuses for it. Your argumentation is probably the exact same that was made in the time of integration of blacks.

Bite the bullet, now. Everyone else has, and they've survived.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
Are you now insinuating I am a gay hater?

Wonder where people could get THAT idea.  
Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
To spell it out for you: A LOT MORE PEOPLE JOIN THE ARMY FOR THE EXTRA MONEY THAN THEY DO JOIN THE MARINES.

Once again: what's that to do with gays?
 
ual777
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:28 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 19):


Wow, didn't know you represented the straight Marines. What an awfully broad brush to paint with, to assume that all, or even a majority, of straight people would need to do any "sucking it up" to make gay people feel welcome. What incredible arrogance to assume everyone's like you.
Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):

Wonder where people could get THAT idea.

You guys really are rediculous. Did you miss the part of my own personal opinion? Unbelievable.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
Scorpio
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:50 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 20):
You guys really are rediculous. Did you miss the part of my own personal opinion? Unbelievable.

Nope, didn't miss it. I just don't buy it. I can't remember how many times I've seen people defend an ignorant stance under the guise of "it's not me who thinks this, it's the others" in an attempt not to have to take any flak for their remarks. In most cases, it is them who think like that.
 
ual777
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:55 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 19):

They already are. And guess what: they've survived! If you're so insecure about your sexuality that showering with a gay person scares the hell out of you, you are probably not very stable emotionally, and it makes me wonder whether you belong in the USMC in the first place. I have gay colleagues, and I've showered with them. I'm comfortable enough with my own sexuality to not let that bother me in the least. And so are most other people.

Again, I am not talking about myself.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 19):

Along the same lines of the "colorful" quotations that could no doubt be heard in that very same USMC around the time they started thinking about integrating blacks into the armed forces. Ignorance and xenophobia are not excuses.

That was desegregation of the military not integration into the armed forces.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 19):

No, you are. If the USMC is 'not open to gays', then that's THEIR fault, not that of the gays. And therefore, up to THEM to change, not up to the gay people wanting to serve.

Who says they have to change? If they believe it is not currently in their best interests that is their decision to make.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 19):


Wow, didn't know you represented the straight Marines. What an awfully broad brush to paint with, to assume that all, or even a majority, of straight people would need to do any "sucking it up" to make gay people feel welcome. What incredible arrogance to assume everyone's like you.

Again, you are misinterpreting my post. I'm merely estimating that 98% percent of Marines are straight. It is incredibly arrogant of you to put words in my mouth.

I will try to break it down for you so you might understand the post (but you probably wont).

Part of what makes the Marines the Marines is how difficult it is. What happens when a DI calls a recruit a "fa**ot", which happens multiple times daily, and he gets called onto the carpet for it?

It changes the whole dynamic of the training and can lower the intensity. That intensity is what makes the Marine Corps a crack combat unit and is critical to the Marine Corps mission. Marines train women and men separately for the same reason. Men can serve in combat arms and women cannot. By its very nature, the physical standards and intensity is higher for men than it is for the women. Before you call me a woman hater, I am not saying a woman is any less of a Marine than a man is but their role is somewhat different.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 19):

Once again: what's that to do with gays?

The Marine Corps has traditionally been called on to take out "hot spots." Thus, unit cohesion and morale is of VITAL importance to their success. With allowing homosexual recruits will come difficulty. Drill instructors WILL get in trouble, and Marines will get tagged for discrimination. As I stated earlier, the leadership of the Marine Corps probably feels now is not the best time to go through that.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
ual777
Posts: 1491
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:05 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 21):

Nope, didn't miss it. I just don't buy it. I can't remember how many times I've seen people defend an ignorant stance under the guise of "it's not me who thinks this, it's the others" in an attempt not to have to take any flak for their remarks. In most cases, it is them who think like that.

I am defending the Commandant and the Marine Corps leadership because they know the Marine Corps better than you and better than me and I was a member. These guys have decades of experience and are at the top of an incredibly competitive career field, so I think you should actually listen to their argument and consider it.

Showing up at 3am at PI is like landing on another planet. They verbally abuse you, ridicule you, make your life hell, and yes even hit, punch, and choke you. The recruiters say they don't, but they do.In fact a friend of mine when at PI was punished (along with about 20 others for fighting in the shower) by being made to line up naked heel to toe in a single-file line and simultaneously lean forward and then backward. What happens if someone gets physically "excited" during the process? The thing is, 99% of the time nobody says anything about this type of legal rule-breaking because of the Corps' mentality. They are building warriors and rules are broken sometimes on the road to doing that. As bad as that is, it hardens the recruits and builds morale.

I have personally seen a recruit's face pushed into a puddle of his own urine by the boot of a DI, numerous recruits punched (yes sometimes in the face or head and this one includes myself), made to cry (this one doesn't include me), claim they want to kill themselves, try to escape the island, accused of homosexuality and beastiality, and driven to the absolute limit mentally.

They were then built back up into a tough warrior ready to kick some ass.

Complicating the Marine culture on multiple levels during a time of war when these Marines are dying weekly may not be the best idea.

[Edited 2010-12-04 03:10:18]
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
Quokka
Posts: 1315
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:11 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
Should the rule change? Yes, but not in a time of war that is at a critical juncture.


But it may always be at a critical juncture. There have been very few years since WWII when the USMC has not been called upon to serve in an action of some kind, whether it has been Korea, Vietnam, Iran, Lebanon, Panama, Grenada, Kuwait, Somalia, Liberia, Afghanistan and Iraq. With your experience you will no doubt be aware of other actions that I have omitted. But you get the picture.

It looks like Korea could be next, although Iran remains a possibility. The fact is that the Generals can not pencil in a date and say that would be a convenient time. In the words of the advertisers, there has never been a better time. If they are serious about accepting change, then they will introduce it sooner than later because who knows what "critical juncture" might prevent it tomorrow?
 
kiwiandrew

RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:11 am

I find it quite sad that the Marine Corps who aren't supposed to be scared of anything can apparently be frightened to the point where they can no longer do their job by the thought of working with gay colleagues ... are they really such a bunch of scared little children ? ... and if they are frightened by the thought of having to work alongside gay colleagues are they really worthy to be marines ? ( For the record I dont think that marines are scared - I think that it is their bosses who are running scared and that it is pretty insulting for those political appointees to suggest that the marines ( or any other branch of the armed forces ) are too chicken to deal with the "Issue" )I am sure that most of them are perfectly capable and not at all threatened by working alongside gay colleagues )
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4767
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:13 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 22):
Who says they have to change? If they believe it is not currently in their best interests that is their decision to make.

Not if it's pure discrimination it's not.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 22):
I'm merely estimating that 98% percent of Marines are straight. It is incredibly arrogant of you to put words in my mouth.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, you LITERALLY said that "probably over 98%" (i.e. all straight people) would have to "suck it up" to "make gays feel welcome", thereby clearly implying that it would actually require an effort for all of them. It's not putting words in someone's mouth if they said it themselves...

Quoting ual777 (Reply 22):
Part of what makes the Marines the Marines is how difficult it is. What happens when a DI calls a recruit a "fa**ot", which happens multiple times daily, and he gets called onto the carpet for it?

Damn, that's one of the lamest excuses yet.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 22):
It changes the whole dynamic of the training and can lower the intensity.

Change things a bit? Perhaps, though I can't see how any changes would be radical. Lower the intensity? How?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 22):
By its very nature, the physical standards and intensity is higher for men than it is for the women. Before you call me a woman hater, I am not saying a woman is any less of a Marine than a man is but their role is somewhat different.

What's that even got to do with gays?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 22):
Thus, unit cohesion and morale is of VITAL importance to their success. With allowing homosexual recruits will come difficulty. Drill instructors WILL get in trouble, and Marines will get tagged for discrimination.

Care to cite examples from the many, many countries that allow gays to openly serve, where it has caused unit cohesion and morale to suffer?

I've never understood the whole 'unit cohesion' stuff. What will make unit cohesion suffer more: knowing that soldiers x and y, perfectly capable, trained and reliable soldiers, are gay? Or knowing that any of the soldiers in your unit could be gay, there'd just be no way for you to know? If you feel 'uncomfortable' about the idea of working with gay people, which of these two is the worst situation to be in? Methinks it's the second one.

[Edited 2010-12-04 03:16:09]
 
Yellowstone
Posts: 2821
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:17 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 22):
What happens when a DI calls a recruit a "fa**ot", which happens multiple times daily, and he gets called onto the carpet for it?

He gets to find other ways to dehumanize and degrade his recruits, or he gets fired. End of story. Are DI's allowed to call recruits "niggers" to try to get under their skin? I doubt it. Calling them "faggots" is the same thing.

Or maybe they could try, you know, treating recruits with some basic human decency. Being able to dehumanize your recruits into mindless killing robots is not something to be proud of.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
ual777
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:33 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 26):

Damn, that's one of the lamest excuses yet.

No its not. You obviously do not know how quickly that can kill a Marine's career.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 25):
I find it quite sad that the Marine Corps who aren't supposed to be scared of anything can apparently be frightened to the point where they can no longer do their job by the thought of working with gay colleagues ... are they really such a bunch of scared little children ? ... and if they are frightened by the thought of having to work alongside gay colleagues are they really worthy to be marines ? ( For the record I dont think that marines are scared - I think that it is their bosses who are running scared and that it is pretty insulting for those political appointees to suggest that the marines ( or any other branch of the armed forces ) are too chicken to deal with the "Issue" )I am sure that most of them are perfectly capable and not at all threatened by working alongside gay colleagues )

I do not think it is being scared. I think the leadership is worried about the physical and mental harm that may come to gay recruits along with the things I mentioned earlier. While many in the Marines are extremely intelligent, there are also many who are not the brightest or tolerant. But again, the Marine Corps is an intolerant institution and it is designed that way. Im not saying harm would be widespread, but it is very possible.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 26):

Care to cite examples from the many, many countries that allow gays to openly serve, where it has caused unit cohesion and morale to suffer?

The many, many other countries (especially those in Europe) are not the Marines.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 26):

I'm not putting words in your mouth, you LITERALLY said that "probably over 98%" (i.e. all straight people) would have to "suck it up" to "make gays feel welcome", thereby clearly implying that it would actually require an effort for all of them. It's not putting words in someone's mouth if they said it themselves...

I meant it in the context that 98% of all Marines are straight. Whether or not its an issue for them is up to the individual, but the number of Marines who feel it would have a negative impact is certainly much greater than any number of gay recruits who would sign up.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 27):

He gets to find other ways to dehumanize and degrade his recruits, or he gets fired. End of story. Are DI's allowed to call recruits "niggers" to try to get under their skin? I doubt it. Calling them "faggots" is the same thing.

Or maybe they could try, you know, treating recruits with some basic human decency. Being able to dehumanize your recruits into mindless killing robots is not something to be proud of.

Really?? I mean really? The Marine Corps is in the business of killing people and right now those people are the ones who cut people's heads off on t.v. You obviously have no clue of what the Marine Corps is about (hint its not killing robots). Recruits need to be broken down in order to be built back up.


Anyway, I am done with this thread. If you guys want to see what I am talking about by all means visit a USMC office and sign up for four years. I can spend the next few days citing example after example of why the leadership is against it but it will fall on deaf ears. I can also explain over and over and over in different ways what the Marine Corps does and why their methodology is important. However I wont because apparently everyone is already an expert. I never knew there were so many retired generals on Anet.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4767
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:38 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 23):
What happens if someone gets physically "excited" during the process?

     

Here's a hint: there are already gays in the Marines. In fact, there's a realistic chance that one of the recruits in that line with your buddy in it WAS gay. If they don't get excited now, why would they suddenly start getting excited if they're allowed to serve openly? The rest of your post all sounds very tough and macho, but has nothing to do with gays. And the fact that leadership doesn't want the rules to change doesn't mean much. They're the leaders, they want things not to change. Because it's change.
 
Scorpio
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:57 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 28):
You obviously do not know how quickly that can kill a Marine's career.

As it should. So he simply shouldn't call 'em faggots anymore. Unless you're now going to claim that gay-bashing forms an integral part of what it takes to become a Marine, that's not going to radically change the training. It takes out a word they can use. Big effing deal. I'm sure they've got a more than big enough range of other lovely derogatory terms to choose from.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 28):
The many, many other countries (especially those in Europe) are not the Marines.

Why not? Because the Maries are 'tougher'? Most of those countries have similar 'tough' departments, with similar levels of training. And they allow gays.
 
ltbewr
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:56 pm

I have long believed that there are plenty of military rules and laws that should cover any potential problems if DADT is repealed. Many of those rules already apply to 'hetro' situations already and are common sense to assure the needed culture of the military continues. Indeed, if we end DADT, we may find a much better situation for all soldiers and officers to the benefit of the military and our government's goals.

I would note that at Senate committee hearings yesterday, a Dem Senator asked the assembled military leaders if DADT was repealed, would they implement the changes. All said yes they would carry it out. They all respect the USA standard that the military is subordinate to the civilian authorities including the Congress and the President so would 'folllow orders'. Some would like some time to implement any changes, perhaps a year or more or until major combat is over in Iraq and Afghanistan. Some old fart Senators like Repub., former Vietnam POW, McCain, want to drag out the hearing process, including having at least 7 hearings in various Senate and House committees, as was done when DADT was put in.

To our Senators and House members: Face reality. Stop delaying for foolish reasons. Ditch DADT then get to work on real issues we need to face.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:29 pm

Quoting ual777 (Reply 22):
What happens when a DI calls a recruit a "fa**ot", which happens multiple times daily, and he gets called onto the carpet for it?

Very simple: DIs will simply have to choose other words. Instead of that word, use "little worm in your mama's dry crusty c*nt" or whatever seems to do the job  
Quoting ual777 (Reply 28):
I think the leadership is worried about the physical and mental harm that may come to gay recruits along with the things I mentioned earlier.

Are you serious? You think a bunch of skinny emo kids are the ones signing up? I've seen plenty of big dudes showing up to gay pride parades - trust me, they'll be just fine in there. The ones who will be going in to prove a point will not be the kind of guys to mess with.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 28):
The many, many other countries (especially those in Europe) are not the Marines.

See? There's that supremacy mentality again.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 28):
Anyway, I am done with this thread. If you guys want to see what I am talking about by all means visit a USMC office and sign up for four years

No thanks, I don't require being broken down and built back up to achieve self confidence, reliance, and respect.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 29):
In fact, there's a realistic chance that one of the recruits in that line with your buddy in it WAS gay. If they don't get excited now, why would they suddenly start getting excited if they're allowed to serve openly?

  
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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LTU932
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:51 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 32):

Dude, forget it. I read this thread and more and more I get the impression that ual777 thinks he's Gunnery Sergeant Hartmann or something, that he has to be the hardass or something just because he's a Marine.

Let's face it: To proclaim to be the land of the free, home of the brave, and where everyone is created equal under god, it is indeed hypocritical that there has been segregation until the 60's, and active discrimination against the openly gay. For me, if I think about the US Declaration of independence, DADT is nothing more, and nothing less, than something that violates the very principles for which Americans fought for their independence from the British Empire, just as segregation and slavery in the South were. Here's the sentence for you to think about (I highlighted the relevant parts):

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
 
johnboy
Posts: 2554
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:33 pm

Quoting ual777 (Reply 23):
In fact a friend of mine when at PI was punished (along with about 20 others for fighting in the shower) by being made to line up naked heel to toe in a single-file line and simultaneously lean forward and then backward.

See? I knew there were already gays in the Marines.  

The old gay joke is that you can always tell a Marine -- they're the ones that hold their own legs up in the air.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 27):
Quoting ual777 (Reply 22):
What happens when a DI calls a recruit a "fa**ot", which happens multiple times daily, and he gets called onto the carpet for it?

He gets to find other ways to dehumanize and degrade his recruits, or he gets fired. End of story. Are DI's allowed to call recruits "niggers" to try to get under their skin? I doubt it. Calling them "faggots" is the same thing.

Do the DI's call the black recuits 'niggers?" If so, why not? Per the the prevailing logic promoted here, it sounds like the perfect way to break someone down and build them up into "warriors."
 
ADXMatt
Posts: 513
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:56 pm

[quote=johnboy,reply=34]See? I knew there were already gays in the Marines.

Yes there are... I've even dated a few.

I usually don't get involved in these gay threads because they almost always get to the point of a few people trying to get the other side to agree with their point of view. The fact that they go on for days going back and forth shows that they are not going to change their opinion. Most people wouldn't be bothered and would just leave the thread.

Fact is there are already Gay Marines. They are not nellie effeminate people who are more into hollywood gossip then doing their job.

The Marines are a tough, masculine, strong group of people. There are tough, masculine and strong gay men.

By being able to be "open" means that the Marine can be honest with his mates and not fear being kicked out if someone found out abut his "secret". They will still have to pass all the rigorous training they do today so they you're not going to get a high heel wig wearing effeminate cross dresser. He would flunk right out.

Gay guy Joe will still be the beer drinking football loving friend that saved your ass yesterday just that tomorrow you may find out that his special frined Pat is Patrick and not Patricia.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:10 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 32):
Very simple: DIs will simply have to choose other words. Instead of that word, use "little worm in your mama's dry crusty c*nt" or whatever seems to do the job

Replace "f" with "m". Problem solved.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:24 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):

I can guarantee you I have been and I have the DD-214 to prove it.

That doesn't mean you understand the "Marine" culture. I know of plenty of Marines that are drug addicts and alcoholics. Isn't that the stuff the Marines are against?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):

Are you now insinuating I am a gay hater?

Honestly, yes, I am. One does not defend a certain viewpoint if one does not believe in it.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
Maybe if YOU had been in a branch of the military you would know the Army often offers enlistment bonuses in excess of $60,000 dollars

I've talked to recruiters from every single branch (including the Coast Guard), so I know exactly what each one of them offers financially. I was literally days away from signing 8 years of my life away to the Air Force. So I think I know what I'm talking about.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
To spell it out for you: A LOT MORE PEOPLE JOIN THE ARMY FOR THE EXTRA MONEY THAN THEY DO JOIN THE MARINES.

And to spell it out for you: BIG FRIGGEN DEAL. You are no more special for joining the Marines than someone is for joining the Army. Graduating boot camp, absolutely. But to suggest that someone is somehow less for going Army is just plain BS.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
There is. The whole point of it was how is being "gay" defined? You ask 5 different people you get 5 different answers.

I'll ask again: are you for real, kid?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
I think you owe me a serious apology.

No, I think you owe 3 of my cousins (two Marines and an Army SF), and my sister (a gay who aspires to become SF, and definitely has the ability to) a serious apology.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
I know enough having been in the Corps

You know jack sh*t about the Corps culture, when my two cousins in the Corps would absolutely love to debate you over your views about it.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
As for Parris Island, I was "in the back". Now you tell me if you know what I'm talking about.

Alright: you don't know what you're talking about.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
Further, maybe if your reading skills improved, I did not in any post say I did not support it. I said Marine Corps culture didn't.

You don't support something you yourself don't support. That's how it works.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
I am stunned at your hateful speech regarding an opposing opinion.

When that opinion prohibits my own sister from serving (and she'd do a damn good job of it), yes, I am hateful with my speech.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
Now, if this could in any way influence their decision not to re-enlist then the Marine Corps loses that valuable experience.

Good riddance to them. We don't need that kind of "experience" leading us.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
but good leadership saves lives on the battlefield.

And that makes a difference if one is gay or not how?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):

Wrong. To quote General Patton:

It's pretty obvious the true meaning of that quote went WAY over your head.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 22):

Part of what makes the Marines the Marines is how difficult it is. What happens when a DI calls a recruit a "fa**ot", which happens multiple times daily, and he gets called onto the carpet for it?

Honestly, if the recruit can't take it as a general insult that everyone gets, they don't belong in the armed forces, period.

So go ahead, tell me I don't understand what it takes.

[quote=ual777,reply=28] Recruits need to be broken down in order to be built back up.

Indeed. So if a gay recruit can't handle the intensity of it just because they're gay, they don't belong. It has nothing to do with what you think about it.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
tootallsd
Posts: 458
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:53 pm

So my Dad was a marine for 30 years 10 months and 15 days. The whole damm family was Marines as a result -- if you are a Marine brat you know what I mean. He was a POW from Day 1 of WWII, in Palestine on formation of Israel, Korea (in the earliest waves), Lebanon in the 50s and Vietnam twice.

He always said DADT and concern about gay Marines was the biggest pile of hooey. His point, there have always been gay soldiers. In fact, HE knew that the joining the Armed Forces was a way for closeted gay people to get out of the country and into life. He served and commanded men that were known to be gay (or assumed) and it was simply NOT AN ISSUE.

We need to move on, this whole discussion diminishes the humanity of the people that is about and the people that make absurd comments about the situation.
 
cargolex
Posts: 1201
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:20 pm

RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:46 pm

Quote:
It is also somewhat common for recruits to be struck by DIs and called a vulgar symphony of words (many of which are gay-related).

In any other job, this would have you fired and out on the street by the end of the day if not the hour. I recognize that the military requires special training, but this is bigoted absurdity taken to an extreme.

Quote:
So if you are gay and want to serve in the Corps...fine. Just keep it to yourself.

No. People should not have to hide who they are because they want to serve their country. Would you require Black Marines in the 1950's to wear makeup to appear White? I think not.

Quote:
40% with a brain? Did you serve in the USMC? What qualifies you to make that statement?

Bigotry is a pretty good indicator of stupidity.

Quote:
You are missing the point. USMC culture is not open towards gays. I can give examples but it involves some "colorful" qoutations.

People employed by the USMC who engage in such behavior should be fired. There's no excuse for open bigotry, really, no matter how much you think there is.

Quote:
Further, why should Marines have to shower in the nude with gays?

Who's to say they aren't doing that right now already? By your own account, if a gay person chooses to serve in silence in the USMC, then they're already showing with straight marines.

Quote:
Different is bad

If, as you claim, this is the attitude of 98% of the USMC, then perhaps we should abolish the USMC altogether.

Quote:
The larger question is what is gay? A preference? A disease? a medical condition? what is it?

We're going to get into that now? Rick Santorum paying you here?

Quote:
I mean't the 98% percent who weren't gay.

Statistically speaking, you're probably wrong here.

Quote:
Are you now insinuating I am a gay hater?

You just asked if homosexuality was a disease or a medical condition, it's a fair assumption to make. Furthermore, you've presented no argument other than "marines have always hated gays" as to why this policy should stand and that's a very weak argument.

Quote:

That was desegregation of the military not integration into the armed forces.

These are one and the same. That's why "desegregation" is often called "integration."

Quote:
It is incredibly arrogant of you to put words in my mouth.

It is incredibly arrogant of you to speak for the entire USMC and make ever marine in it seems like homophobes.

Quote:

Part of what makes the Marines the Marines is how difficult it is. What happens when a DI calls a recruit a "fa**ot", which happens multiple times daily, and he gets called onto the carpet for it?

The DI will be, and should be dismissed from his or her position.

The existential question here is - why is calling recruits "fa**ot" the only way to motivate them? What happens if the recruit says back "Yes I am, f**cker, and proud of it." If you're a DI, I imagine you don't want your recruits laughing at you. "fa**ot." What is this, 1954?

If this is the only way the USMC can motivate people then clearly we have a problem with what the USMC is doing and the entire institution needs to be dissolved and re-formed from the ground up.

Quote:
the Corps' mentality.

...Seems extremely flawed.

Quote:
No its not. You obviously do not know how quickly that can kill a Marine's career.

I should hope it would. If you're looking for sympathy go play a violin elsewhere. Open discrimination is not tolerated in any other place in our society. It shouldn't be tolerated - or as you suggest enshrined - among those we look to protect that society.

[Edited 2010-12-05 13:47:40]
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:18 pm

Quoting ual777 (Reply 3):

So if you are gay and want to serve in the Corps...fine. Just keep it to yourself.

And in the closet. Because its icky to ual777.   

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
USMC culture is not open towards gays.

And that is wrong.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
Should women shower with the men then?

Probably. If people are showering together at all.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
Further, why should Marines have to shower in the nude with gays?

Why should they have to shower in the nude with others generally?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
In addition, the Marine Corps is not like most other western countries. It is about 25% percent the size of the army including reserves, but has taken proportionally higher casualties than any other branch in Iraq. People join the Army for bonuses. People join the Marines to fight.

And? You don't think gay men and women can fight? Gay men and women fight much harder in their lives than you or I ever will, so you can step off there.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):

The larger question is what is gay? A preference? A disease? a medical condition? what is it?

Um, sexual orientation. A natural way of being.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):

I mean't the 98% percent who weren't gay.

98% eh? You are almost certainly incorrect.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 20):

You guys really are rediculous.

The only ridiculous one here is you.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 20):
Did you miss the part of my own personal opinion?

Your opinion is quite clear.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 22):
What happens when a DI calls a recruit a "fa**ot", which happens multiple times daily, and he gets called onto the carpet for it?

The DI should be fired for that anyway. Whether they use it toward a gay or straight soldier

Quoting tootallsd (Reply 38):

Your dad was the kind of Marine we need more of.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:34 am

DIs (and Drill Sergeants of any branch) say stuff to everyone that are offensive. Don't get me wrong, I am against DADT and awaiting its repeal, but I truly hope gay service members don't complain when they hear "fag." Unless it's consistent harassment directed towards your sexuality, let it go
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fraspotter
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:00 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
Its metaphorical "kid." Maybe if YOU had been in a branch of the military you would know the Army often offers enlistment bonuses in excess of $60,000 dollars. The largest I ever saw the Corps offer was $5,000. To spell it out for you: A LOT MORE PEOPLE JOIN THE ARMY FOR THE EXTRA MONEY THAN THEY DO JOIN THE MARINES.

Where the hell have you been looking? My brother signed up with the corps last spring and received a $40,000 bonus. 3 friends of mine from high school each received no less than $25,000. BTW that last sentence in ALL CAPS is BS. People join the Army because there are more opportunities in their job field (as it is a much larger branch of the military), duty locations, etc.
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cargolex
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:49 am

Quote:
but I truly hope gay service members don't complain when they hear "fag."

If a White DI says "Ni**er" to a Black serviceman, what should the Black serviceman do? It is directly analogous.
 
Maverick623
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:52 am

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 39):
There's no excuse for open bigotry

Absolutely, however:

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 39):


The existential question here is - why is calling recruits "fa**ot" the only way to motivate them?

You miss the point of all the yelling and name calling. It's not a motivator; in fact, it's a demotivator. The point of the initial round of yelling, screaming, and such is to completely and utterly break the recruit. There's simply no other way to do it. If they can't learn to get past that stuff in relative safety, they wouldn't survive 5 minutes with bullets flying at them.

Also, it serves a reverse psychological purpose. Officers and NCOs are trained to give certain orders without any vulgar language whatsoever, contrasting the chaotic and loud environment of a battlefield. The contrast conveys a sense of seriousness that the job needs to get done.

Discovery has a somewhat decent documentary of basic training, but the stuff they filmed is extremely toned down compared to what actually goes on. Physical contact and vulgar slurs often occur, although not quite to the point you see in Full Metal Jacket.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 39):
What happens if the recruit says back "Yes I am, f**cker, and proud of it."

Assuming a recruit has an actual opportunity to talk back, and depending on their exact verbiage and attitude, it can range from getting held back a class to being kicked out entirely.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Curtisman
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:30 pm

Interesting reading. I've also been listening to some of this US DADT stuff on XM Radio.

As a Canadian, I live in a country of freedom and I always enjoy visiting my neighbours to the south. I obey their laws when I visit as I do any other country I visit whether I think they are right or not and in some cases extremely backwards to the rest of the free world.

What I get confused about through some of this discussion is that one of the issues mentioned is that the military units require cohesion and working together and trust. I agree with that 100%. The problem I see is that the government by enforcing DADT is telling it's soldiers to lie about who they are. How can you trust someone you work with by knowing that they are lying and how can you trust a leadership that is telling you to lie? By not disclosing the full truth you are hiding something. I won't get into symantics about whether not telling or not asking is lying or not - but if you get down to the basics - it's hiding who you really are.

The shower comments intrigue me. The leaders and designers of the 'showers' want all those guys in there naked together. Makes one wonder who the straight guys really are!   (Consider this last statement in humour.)

If DADT were truly enforced then I assume a straight person should not be talking about their spouse or children or significant others as that could be considered the same as 'telling' their sexuality. Although many could argue that too hehehe.
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Mudboy
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:07 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 44):
Physical contact and vulgar slurs often occur, although not quite to the point you see in Full Metal Jacket.

I actually know a USMC DI from the Vietnam era, and he said Full Metal Jacket was spot on, as to what they used to do, but yes, it has toned down somewhat these days . He said they would only let them be DI's for 2 yrs back then, because they had a few that liked it too much. They also had to do psych evaluations periodically. He used to say, if the recruits did not hate you, you were not doing your job good enough.

[Edited 2010-12-06 16:08:38]
 
cargolex
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:33 am

Quote:

You miss the point of all the yelling and name calling. It's not a motivator; in fact, it's a demotivator.The point of the initial round of yelling, screaming, and such is to completely and utterly break the recruit.

I guess I do miss the point. I don't understand the point of Muzak either. Yelling and Screaming is pretty much pointless, I think, for anybody who isn't afraid of yelling and screaming. Striking somebody, wearing them down through physical activity and physical training, okay. That I understand. But honestly it's hard to see a typical DI as anything but a joke. I'm not really sure why any recruit would be so demoralized as to "break" by being yelled at by some obnoxious guy in a funny hat. All you have to do is follow instructions. Instructions shouted loudly in simple language. Is it really that hard? To be honest, the entire image of DI's, the entire culture of yelling at recruits to "break them down" - it's hard not to laugh.

I wonder if other armies train this way in other countries. Does the IDF use DI's who call people "Fa**ot?" I think not. In fact, in the IDF openly gay people have been serving with equal standing since 1993. Better not tell the USMC.

If this is how we're training people, I think we need a new training method.
 
Maverick623
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:10 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 46):

I actually know a USMC DI from the Vietnam era, and he said Full Metal Jacket was spot on, as to what they used to do

My grandfather was a DI at Parris Island sometime back in the 50s, so I'm right there with ya  
Quoting Mudboy (Reply 46):
but yes, it has toned down somewhat these days

It's been toned down a lot. Despite what some say, the kids today are very intelligent. They know exactly what they're getting into. Also, there's no draft. Makes a big difference.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 46):
He used to say, if the recruits did not hate you, you were not doing your job good enough.

A theory that doesn't hold true today, for the reasons I mentioned above.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 47):
But honestly it's hard to see a typical DI as anything but a joke. I'm not really sure why any recruit would be so demoralized as to "break" by being yelled at by some obnoxious guy in a funny hat.

It's physically and mentally exhausting. Yea, you might be able to put up with it for an hour or so, but after that, I'm going to bet you're gonna want a break. Guess what. No breaks.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 47):
To be honest, the entire image of DI's, the entire culture of yelling at recruits to "break them down" - it's hard not to laugh.

I don't mean this to sound rude or anything, but you should take a crack at it sometime. It's very easy to sit back and say you'd laugh at them. Most are very good at what they do. They'll find your psychological weakness and tear it to shreds, while making you do 200 pushups in the pit.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 47):
Does the IDF use DI's who call people "Fa**ot?" I think not.

A pretty bold statement from someone who's probably never even been to Israel.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
NorthstarBoy
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RE: USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report

Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:01 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 48):

It's physically and mentally exhausting. Yea, you might be able to put up with it for an hour or so, but after that, I'm going to bet you're gonna want a break. Guess what. No breaks.

Bingo. For those who have never experienced it, being yelled at by someone is incredibly stressful, especially if they're throwing in all kinds of personal insults. You try not to take it personally, you try not to let it get to you, but it's very hard not to. A case in point, I had a man scream at me for probably thirty minutes, throwing all kinds of obscenities including the F bomb and even accusing me of working for the airlines.....all because I had the nerve to suggest that he could not combine two separate non refunbable tickets into one ticket. He kept suggesting all he wanted to do was cancel the outbound of his second ticket and travel on the return. When i suggested he couldn't do that without a fare increase and a change fee because the airline was not going to consider what he wanted to do a reaccomodation (one of his flights was delayed and he'd miss his connection and he didn't want to spend the night in his connecting city,) he went thermo nuclear on me. After thirty minutes of that I finally suggested I could no longer assist him and hung up on him, but i was pretty shaken by the whole thing.

Basically, what the DIs have to do during basic is break down the basic instinct taught to everyone from birth that it's not okay to kill someone. They do that by denying the recruit the three basics everyone needs: Eating, Sleeping, and evacuating the bowels. Or to paraphrase a quote: "If i can dictate when a man Eats, Sleeps and takes a shit, i can get him to do anything I want."

I think the trick to ending dadt successfully is not to put the onus on the unit but on the individual gay recruit. What the military doesn't want is for the gay soldier to become a liability to the unit and lets face it 17 and 18 year olds are horny. Why do you think they don't train men and women together? Because it's going to be a distraction for both the boys and the girls. So, if you take an 18 year old recruit and put him in a room full of other guys, some of whom he'll consider to be "hot" he's going to get distracted which in turn could lead to him becoming a liability. When you have 16 weeks to teach someone everything he needs to know to not only stay alive but keep the guys around him alive on the battlefield the last thing you want is any kind of distraction at all.

I am aware, by the way, that the kinds of gay kids who enlist aren't the kind who will walk into the recruiting station flying the rainbow flag in all of their limp wristed glory but there is still the potential of an uncessary distraction because the hormones are still there and raging.

Finally, as someone who spent three years as a cadet in Civil Air Patrol, it is all about bonding as a unit. It's all about believing that you and your guys are the shit compared to anyone in any other squadron or in any other civic organization "cough" the boy scouts "cough." It's also about the drive not to let down your squadron or your officers, that's what unit cohesion is all about,and even in something as innocuous as CAP, it's vital.
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