futurepilot16
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WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:41 pm

"WikiLeaks publishes list of worldwide infrastructure 'critical' to security of U.S."
Still think they don't pose a threat to national security? What is the gain of releasing information like this? I thought this website was a whistle blowing website? Now of course in their defense, some of the places on this list is a no brainer when it comes to security risk, but really, what are they gaining by releasing this info? Not only are there lists of targets in the US, but throughout the world.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40526224/ns/us_news-security/

Quote:
"There are strong and valid reasons information is classified, including critical infrastructure and key resources that are vital to the national and economic security of any country," Crowley told The Times.

Basically, they're doing Al Qaeda's work for them. Releasing statistical documents about how many afghans civilians have been killed by the U.S. in drone strikes etc. Releasing videos of numerous questionable attacks (even though i'm not opposed to this). Our enemies can easily log on to Wikileaks.org and use it as a training tool for recruitment to kill Americans, and millions of Americans sees this so called whistle-blowing site as the greatest thing since sliced bread!
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
hka098
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:10 pm

For secret information, this was pretty widely-distributed...

Quote from the MSNBC story.

"Kristinn Hrafnsson, a WikiLeaks spokesman, told The Times that the list had been made available to 2.5 million people including military personnel and private contractors by the U.S. government, saying this was a "very wide distribution for information claimed to be of such high sensitivity."

Is this something that wasn't already known? Possibly. Wikileaks' list does not detail locations, or the specific vulnerabilities of the sites themselves. U.S. infrastructure will be much more secure when their SCADA systems stop running Windows NT and have restricted access to the Internet.

Quote from the MSNBC story.

"In the short run, we're almost out of business," said a senior U.S. diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity. "It is really, really bad. I cannot exaggerate it. In all honesty, nobody wants to talk to us."

I wonder why...
 
Severnaya
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:03 pm

The list which I just read on the wikileaks website this morning is so small and only states the obvious locations which every 18 year old guy with an internet connection and some knowledge of politics and crime could compose.
Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
 
ronglimeng
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:16 pm

I first learned of this part of the WikiLeaks story this morning when I checked a Toronto Star newspaper story on Canadian locations that were "critical" to US interests. I have to agree with Severnaya above, that unless you have no clue, these lists aren't that helpful.

One of the Star contributors "scaleworker", suggests that Canadians need a corresponding list of critical American locations...Clearwater Beach, Florida, being #1 in his opinion.
 
janmnastami
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:42 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Thread starter):
Basically, they're doing Al Qaeda's work for them. Releasing statistical documents about how many afghans civilians have been killed by the U.S. in drone strikes

I feel stupid, I believed that releasing documents about the number of civilians killed in Afghanistan by drone strikes was a favour of the truth.
 
connies4ever
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:31 pm

Quoting Severnaya (Reply 2):
The list which I just read on the wikileaks website this morning is so small and only states the obvious locations which every 18 year old guy with an internet connection and some knowledge of politics and crime could compose.
Quoting Severnaya (Reply 2):
I first learned of this part of the WikiLeaks story this morning when I checked a Toronto Star newspaper story on Canadian locations that were "critical" to US interests. I have to agree with Severnaya above, that unless you have no clue, these lists aren't that helpful.

   It's good to know that where I work is considered "crucial to US interests". I'm all warm and fuzzy now.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
hka098
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:41 pm

If these diplomats were this candid on the record, I would love to hear them off of the record!

I imagine the government would have to make a list such as this and apply a classification to each site. The first step organizing data is to break it down into different classes.
 
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fca767
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:58 pm

In the UK we have our own Secret Bases website, if it's like what they say it's already public knowledge but this website is very interesting, it's ok, the owner goes to the governments D-Notice to ask if it's ok
http://www.secret-bases.co.uk/secret.htm
 
QANTAS077
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:01 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Thread starter):
Basically, they're doing Al Qaeda's work for them.

most ignorant post in this thread...as if AQ doesn't know this info already.
 
windy95
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:43 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Thread starter):
Basically, they're doing Al Qaeda's work for them

You have to be kidding. This is one dumb statement. Anyone with internet access can figure this list out.
 
deltaownsall
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:22 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
In the end, this raises some important lessons that the U.S. needs to learn: if you keep your nose clean, then there are fewer boogers to run down your face and embarrass you.

Has the U.S. screwed up, in any number of instances, leading to tragic results? Absolutely.

The crux of the debate, perhaps, lies a bit deeper though. Some people like to deny that the United States has carried a burden of special responsibility over the past ~65 years. Some people like to suggest that the United States only grabbed this burden out of pure selfishness, and that the world would have been the same, or even better off, if the US had just minded its own business from WW2 onwards. Both camps are wildly misinterpreting (or deliberately manipulating) history.

Like it or not, the United States is the country that a huge number of governments around the world, not to mention reasonably informed citizens, will readily admit is largely responsible for their continued security. Such a huge responsibility means leading the war against terrorism, which is real and necessary. In a war, horrible mistakes will be made. No state, government, army, human, etc. is perfect. We need to concern ourselves not with expecting the war to be a perfectly bloodless, magical solution against a very dangerous enemy. Instead, we should be focusing on how certain mistakes could have been avoided, and how we can be as efficient as possible in protecting innocent people, no matter which country they are from, while we continue to fight the enemy.

A world without a powerful/engaged United States is not one that most of us would like to see, whether or not we choose to admit it. It is, however, as you indicated, one that JA seems increasingly interested in.
 
futurepilot16
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:57 pm

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 14):
A world without a powerful/engaged United States is not one that most of us would like to see, whether or not we choose to admit it. It is, however, as you indicated, one that JA seems increasingly interested in.

Apparently, people like AGM100 don't feel this way. Anything we've previously done in the past to wronf someone else clearly should be apologized for. Look, i'm no bandwagon supporter of skeletons that hides in this country's closet. We've done some malicious things to other countries that soe people could not possibly imagine. I despise the fact that our government continues to push our policies onto other countries. If they don't accept, they get bombed.

With that being said, ANYONE, who sees it fit to want to harm me, my family, my friends, or the general American public, are what I consider to be enemies. Take it for what you will. You can make the argument that we did certain people wrong blah blah blah. But the US military invading a country for oil or whatnot has nothing to do with some person working on the 90th floor of the World Trade Center. If they feel that it's ok to respond to us by attacking us, even in such a cowardly way, then they're not victims, they're enemies and should be treated as such, despite that you feel sorry for them.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
Mir
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:57 pm

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 14):
In a war, horrible mistakes will be made. No state, government, army, human, etc. is perfect. We need to concern ourselves not with expecting the war to be a perfectly bloodless, magical solution against a very dangerous enemy. Instead, we should be focusing on how certain mistakes could have been avoided, and how we can be as efficient as possible in protecting innocent people, no matter which country they are from, while we continue to fight the enemy.

This is correct. However, it cannot happen if we do not know about the mistakes that we make. Some people equate supporting the publicizing of incidents involving the military (and I recognize that Wikileaks has put out other stuff as well, and I'm less comfortable with that) with anti-military sentiment, but that's not always the case.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:23 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 4):
What enemies ? Surly your not referring to the misunderstood , oppressed people in the world who we capitalists owe a apology too for being arrogant ? We don't have enemies .... we have people that deserve justice for the evil done to them by the USA. Have you not been paying attention ?

Hey, you know, no one is forcing you to stay in the United States. If its such a bad place, why don't you pack your bags and leave. In fact, if it's that bad, I'm sure we can take up a collection to get you a 1 way ticket to anywhere out of the country, once you give up your citizenship.

Regardless of how much you think the US is the bad guy of the world, why is it that so many people from all over the world seek to move to our country?

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
hka098
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:48 am

Who said anything about it being bad in the U.S.?

What some are trying to get across is that the U.S. Government has done some rotten things around the World. For whatever reason they were done, usually money, there is no excusing the acts. Now, some of them will be aired in public. Abu Gharib, Civilian deaths in Afghanistan/Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, Extraordinary Rendition, Waterboarding all make Americans look bad in the eyes of the rest of the World. The fear-mongers at DHS and their goons in the TSA are not helping. In fact, they are penalizing the very people they have been tasked with protecting. Private defense contractors and the government lobby are cashing in on the very act which caused the death of three thousand people. The Government has been spending billions on the War on Terror and what is there to show for it? I have a feeling those questions and more will be answered in the Wikileaks cables. That is something, because the U.S. Government is sure not going to tell it's people anything.

Economic promise is why people come to the U.S. That has nothing to do with the crooked stuff the folks in Washington are doing. Though, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the U.S. was involved at some level in the state of many-a-nation's economy. (United Fruit Co. ?)
 
deltaownsall
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:07 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 16):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 18):
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 19):

When I responded to AGM's post earlier, I had assumed that he was being ironic. Maybe I read it wrong, but this was my first impression. I certainly hope this is the case, lol.
 
deltaownsall
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:17 am

Quoting HKA098 (Reply 14):
The Government has been spending billions on the War on Terror and what is there to show for it?

This is precisely the problem with the war on terror. What is the main goal of the war on terror? Preventing future terrorist attacks. Since we can't know for sure might have been in the absence of our efforts, people run around saying that there has been no result.
 
hka098
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:32 am

The title "War on Terror" is too abstract, probably meant to encompass anything it's coiners considered a threat. There will never be an absence of terror, in any form, as long as there are people on this planet. Are we any more free of terror now, than we were almost ten years ago?
 
connies4ever
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:56 am

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 16):
This is precisely the problem with the war on terror. What is the main goal of the war on terror? Preventing future terrorist attacks. Since we can't know for sure might have been in the absence of our efforts, people run around saying that there has been no result.

The main goal of the GWOT is to make the general public feel that "something is being done" about terror. What in fact is being done is that your liberties are being eroded day by day, and you and we are never going to get them back. What has been achieved is to spend hundreds of billions of dollars to erect even more colossal bureaucracies to watch you.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Pyrex
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:42 am

Quoting HKA098 (Reply 14):
The Government has been spending billions on the War on Terror and what is there to show for it?

Why don't you ask the people of Portland, Oregon that got together to see the Christmas Tree lighting and lived to tell the tale?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
deltaownsall
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:54 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 18):
What in fact is being done is that your liberties are being eroded day by day, and you and we are never going to get them back. What has been achieved is to spend hundreds of billions of dollars to erect even more colossal bureaucracies to watch you.

And people say we're paranoid about terrorism, lol.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 19):
Why don't you ask the people of Portland, Oregon that got together to see the Christmas Tree lighting and lived to tell the tale?

  

A city that had earlier refused to take part in the FBI's joint terrorism task force, ironically. Kind of a coincidence that Mohamud ended up there, isn't it.
 
Lufthansa411
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:26 am

As had been said before, the sites on that list are pretty straightforward. In Germany for example most of them make important chemicals or power implements. But then there are the bizarre ones like the factory that produces Prussian Blue paint. What if the US isn't able to paint it is going to trigger a war?  
Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
 
hka098
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:39 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 19):
Why don't you ask the people of Portland, Oregon that got together to see the Christmas Tree lighting and lived to tell the tale?

The sting operation where a moronic teenager was lead by the FBI to try and blow-up packages full of sand? Seriously? That kid couldn't organize an egg on toast. Big threat...
 
Pyrex
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:32 pm

Quoting HKA098 (Reply 22):
The sting operation where a moronic teenager was lead by the FBI to try and blow-up packages full of sand? Seriously? That kid couldn't organize an egg on toast. Big threat...

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. I am sure there was no way he would be able to figure it out, either, or get help from people that would. After all you need an IQ of 200 to be able to blow something up...

It is incredible how people like you try to devalue the work the FBI is doing to keep YOU safe on the name of some political agenda. No wonder there are threads floating around A.net about the U.S. slipping into collapse by 2025. It might be the case, but it has nothing to do with resources, but with The Enemy Within.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
hka098
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:47 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 23):
The Enemy Within.

Paranoid much? Maybe this will make you feel better; http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/h...sages-coming-walmart-hotels-malls/

Since when is the FBI's work a sole part of the security apparatus, put in place since 9/11? Did the FBI keep civilian families in Iraq safe from Blackwater thugs running around their country, shooting everything and anything? How many civilians have died from the course of America bringing freedom to Afghanistan and Iraq? Of course it is easy to call the plays from across the pond. Some folks are just really irked that U.S. Government corruption being laid out for the World to see. They are probably even more irked that the genie can never be put back in the bottle.

I don't hate America. Quite to the contrary. I served in it's armed forces and made my sacrifices to keep the nation free. Don't talk to me about what the Government does to keep us free. I want America to live up to the moral high-ground they present to the rest of the World. The U.S. Government is the reason we are in the place we currently find ourselves and I don't want my children to grow-up in a police state.

BTW, Assange is set to present himself to the authorities in London on Tuesday, 12/7

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11937110
 
UNCRDU
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:57 pm

Quoting HKA098 (Reply 22):
The sting operation where a moronic teenager was lead by the FBI to try and blow-up packages full of sand? Seriously? That kid couldn't organize an egg on toast. Big threat...

Yup, just like 19 men armed only with box cutters were a "big threat" 9 years ago...
 
hka098
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:01 pm

Quoting UNCRDU (Reply 25):
Yup, just like 19 men armed only with box cutters were a "big threat" 9 years ago...

...and the FBI was unable to stop them. The Feds were unable to stop the Shoe Bomber, the Underwear Bomber, and a nasty toner cartridge. Your point?

Bad people, wanting to do bad things to the U.S. and with half-a-brain know where to hit. The list affects nothing.
 
UNCRDU
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:04 pm

Quoting HKA098 (Reply 26):
...and the FBI was unable to stop them. The Feds were unable to stop the Shoe Bomber, the Underwear Bomber, and a nasty toner cartridge. Your point?

My point is, they were able to stop the guy in Portland before he could become dangerous. And we owe them props for that.

Quoting HKA098 (Reply 26):
Bad people, wanting to do bad things to the U.S. and with half-a-brain know where to hit. The list affects nothing.

I'd wager that there are quite a few sites on that list that your run of the mill terrorist didn't know about before the list was published.
 
hka098
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:23 pm

Quoting UNCRDU (Reply 27):
My point is, they were able to stop the guy in Portland before he could become dangerous. And we owe them props for that.

I agree and gave them such in the related thread.

Quoting UNCRDU (Reply 27):
I'd wager that there are quite a few sites on that list that your run of the mill terrorist didn't know about before the list was published.

Perhaps, but would they have the means? Could they do something effective with that information? Are some mundane, less-critical targets worth the risk of getting caught and the resources spent?
 
deltaownsall
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:37 pm

Quoting HKA098 (Reply 28):
Perhaps, but would they have the means?

Here we are. Are you of the opinion that U.S./NATO operations in Afghanistan/Pakistan have not disrupted Al Qaeda's means?
 
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scbriml
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:45 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Thread starter):
Basically, they're doing Al Qaeda's work for them.

If you really believe this, then you're seriously underestimating Al-Q.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
hka098
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:53 pm

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 29):
Here we are. Are you of the opinion that U.S./NATO operations in Afghanistan/Pakistan have not disrupted Al Qaeda's means?

Great question! We don't really know. All we can go on is what the media reports. Those reports are filtered and edited by DoD censors. Once in awhile the BBC or some other new outlet presents a different, and maybe more accurate picture of how things actually are. I do not really trust the information reported by Fox, MSNBC, NY Times, and to a lesser extent CNN. I especially do not trust stories from anonymous or unnamed sources.

U.S. operations in Pakistan have done a great deal for insurgent and Al Qaida recruitment. How do you get a whole generation of people to hate you? Kill their families with drone attacks.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:16 pm

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 29):
Here we are. Are you of the opinion that U.S./NATO operations in Afghanistan/Pakistan have not disrupted Al Qaeda's means?

simple answer, look to the poppy fields for your answer, then you can come back and tell us all!

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 11):
ANYONE, who sees it fit to want to harm me, my family, my friends, or the general American public, are what I consider to be enemies.

your hypocrisy is astounding, how about you spread the same anger at the Guardian & NYT? they are the ones who are really driving Wikileaks, and, your S of D has come out and said that "nothing sensitive has been published, and that nobody has died as a result of Wikileaks".

its a tad embarrassing that the Saudi's are mentioned as the main source of funds for terrorism, yet your govt continually sits on its hands and does nothing about this, yet we have old slappers like Joe Liebermann calling Assange a terrorist, you should be directing your attitude towards your governments for allowing the Saudi's to continue funding real terror.

[Edited 2010-12-07 12:21:49]
 
deltaownsall
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:37 pm

Quoting HKA098 (Reply 31):
U.S. operations in Pakistan have done a great deal for insurgent and Al Qaida recruitment. How do you get a whole generation of people to hate you? Kill their families with drone attacks.

Talk about a theory that's hard to quantify. Interestingly, much of the Muslim world has seen decreasing support for suicide bombings since 2001, according to this pew poll: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1338/dec...port-for-bin-laden-suicide-bombing

It doesn't include Afghanistan and Pakistan, of course, but the rest of the Muslim world matters a great deal as well when we're considering global terrorism.

Either way, Islamic terrorism is not a recent development, and will continue exist whether or not the Soviet Union, United States, The Empire of Bhutan, or whoever the hell else occupies any middle eastern country, Israel remains a state, some cartoonist draws Muhammad, etc. It runs a hell of a lot deeper than current events, and is based more on general anger, ignorance, and a particular reading of the Quran than any true cause. The west has every right to protect its interests against such a force, and as so many others have said, airport security isn't going to cut it. We have to be proactive.

I think you'll at least agree that there's just no way that we can effectively disrupt Al Qaeda and other Islamist factions without making potentially tragic mistakes at times...especially when we're dealing with an enemy that deliberately uses the lives of innocent people on both sides to achieve its ends.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:29 am

Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 21):
But then there are the bizarre ones like the factory that produces Prussian Blue paint. What if the US isn't able to paint it is going to trigger a war?  

Prussian Blue is also used as an antidote for certain kinds of heavy metal poisoning.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
hka098
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:01 am

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 33):
I think you'll at least agree that there's just no way that we can effectively disrupt Al Qaeda and other Islamist factions without making potentially tragic mistakes at times...especially when we're dealing with an enemy that deliberately uses the lives of innocent people on both sides to achieve its ends.

I do agree. Whenever folks start trading shots, there will be others that get hurt. Why war is a bad way to solve any problem. For what it is worth, we should go for the drugs in Afghanistan and Pakistan. That would further destabilize the region, but would put and end to the poison shipped out of those parts. Heroin does no one any good.
 
Pyrex
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:45 am

Quoting HKA098 (Reply 24):
How many civilians have died from the course of America bringing freedom to Afghanistan and Iraq?

When the hell was Afghanistan ever about freedom? Afghanistan was about retribution for 9/11, and there is nothing wrong with that (even Obama would have done what Bush did on 9/12). Afghanistan is a god-forsaken hell-hole in the middle of the mountains that has always been barbaric to its own citizens and always will. If you think anyone (including, or especially, Afghanis) will ever bring peace or freedom to that place you are sorely mistaken. Their problems have nothing to do with the U.S.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 30):
If you really believe this, then you're seriously underestimating Al-Q.

You are the one who does not know how Al-Qaeda operates. AQ is by nature a very loose organization of local scumbags. Even assuming the "central command" of Al-Qaeda (if it exists, which is doubtful) knew about the factory in Germany producing Prussian Blue (and seeing how it caught many people in here by surprise, the most likely is they wouldn't), you can bet that your local gang of Turkish thugs in Germany at their Saudi-funded mosque did not. Now that this is out, there is a chance that with their next unemployment check they will fuel up their Seat Ibizas and go on a little field trip to stake the place out. So yes, the world is now a more dangerous place thanks to Julien Assange.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
QANTAS077
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:00 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 36):
Afghanistan was about retribution for 9/11

I seem to recall 9/11 being about Bin Laden, Afghanistan was just the setting for the war.
 
Pyrex
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:16 am

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 37):
I seem to recall 9/11 being about Bin Laden, Afghanistan was just the setting for the war.

Correct. Still about retribution. There is no way anyone will ever transform Afghanistan into a place anyone in their right mind would like to live in, all you can hope is to keep enough troops on the ground to prevent the Taliban/AQ from regrouping too strongly and otherwise just let the Afghans kill each other.
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QANTAS077
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:42 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
There is no way anyone will ever transform Afghanistan into a place anyone in their right mind would like to live in, all you can hope is to keep enough troops on the ground to prevent the Taliban/AQ from regrouping too strongly and otherwise just let the Afghans kill each other.

of course not, too many interests at stake, especially in that small plant that gives millions a high each year!

as for the world being more dangerous, well that is a load of bullcrap and you know it! terrorists don't need the list of infrastructure sights to commit their crimes, shit, they can just as easily park a truck bomb at a mosque (common practice these days) sporting ground or on the side of the road...nothing new about it either.
 
hka098
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:59 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 36):
When the hell was Afghanistan ever about freedom? Afghanistan was about retribution for 9/11, and there is nothing wrong with that (even Obama would have done what Bush did on 9/12). Afghanistan is a god-forsaken hell-hole in the middle of the mountains that has always been barbaric to its own citizens and always will. If you think anyone (including, or especially, Afghanis) will ever bring peace or freedom to that place you are sorely mistaken. Their problems have nothing to do with the U.S.

I recall 'Freedom' being in the name for the operation. One can surmise from that, the two are related. Right now, Afghan problems have everything to do with the U.S. and NATO. We are in their country, no one likes to have a foreign power in occupation. Afghanistan is a narco-state run by warlords some of which pervert Islam to control the people.
 
connies4ever
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RE: WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. List Of 'critical' Sites

Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:20 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 36):
Afghanistan is a god-forsaken hell-hole in the middle of the mountains that has always been barbaric to its own citizens and always will. If you think anyone (including, or especially, Afghanis) will ever bring peace or freedom to that place you are sorely mistaken. Their problems have nothing to do with the U.S.

Actually, the area around Herat is kind of nice, from my recollections.    On the other point, Afghanistan IMHO is not really a country but a geographically close colleciton of tribes (Pashto, Tajiks, Uzbeks, etc) who have traditionally fought one another over many generations. No one has ever really subdued them. Alexander tried, the British tried (twice, IIRC), the Russians tried, now the US/NATO. Not going to work.

I have ever thought that post 9/11 the more appropriate response was a determined intelligence/special forces operation, not the sort of sledgehammer approach the West is taking currently. SA)">AQ is not a really big organisation, in Afghanistan it seems to have been substantially reduced.

The issues for the West are, again IMHO:
--how to contain SA)">AQ in Yemen, Maghreb, etc ?
--how to cut off financial support from SA, UAE, etc ?
--what to do about Pakistan ?
--how to identify and then address the real issues for the street in the ME ? (or even can we?)
--is all this bloated 'security' bureaucracy we have erected at enormous cost really necessary ?
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