UH60FtRucker
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US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:43 am

...Again.

So a quick update for those of you who haven't been able to closely follow all the drama.

Back in May, the US House voted 234 to 194 to repeal the US Military policy on gay servicemembers, Don't Ask Don't Tell (DADT). The ban then stalled before the Senate and no action was taken until late September. Majority Leader Reed attempted to attach the repeal of DADT to the National Defense Authorization Act, along with some other non relevant legislation pieces such as the Dream Act.

Republicans objected to the way in which DADT was attached to a bill that should have been left alone and was not relevant to the policy. So with a 56-44 vote, the bill failed to garner the required 60 and failed. Senator Reed attempted to basically do the same thing again on Dec 9, but once again failed. Republicans still rejected the repeal of DADT being linked to the NDAA.

So, the only recourse was to vote on a stand alone bill in the Senate. However, since the stand alone bill that was passed in May by the House failed, any vote that the Senate held would have to be approved by the House.

So today with a vote of 250-175 -- a larger margin than the vote in May -- the House voted again to repeal DADT. The next step will be for the Senate to vote on the stand alone bill that Senators Lieberman (I-CT) and Colins (R-ME) has introduced. This may happen as early as two days from now.

As it stands, the Senate still needs 60 votes. However, Republican Senator Olympia Snowe has announced that she is on board, and will vote in favor. Additionally Alaskan Republican Senator Murkowski and Massachusetts Republican Senator Brown have indicated their support for repealing DADT.

...This is it folks. We could possibly be a few days away from the end of this ugly policy. If looks as though there are the votes to support repeal. Hopefully these leaders vote on their principles, and not try any childish obstruction games (Senator McCain).

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fed...ouse_votes_to_repeal_dont_ask.html
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Aaron747
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:57 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Thread starter):

...This is it folks. We could possibly be a few days away from the end of this ugly policy. If looks as though there are the votes to support repeal. Hopefully these leaders vote on their principles, and not try any childish obstruction games (Senator McCain).

I certainly hope so. It must be pretty frosty in the McCain house these days, with both daughter and wife being vocal proponents of the DADT repeal. This could finally be it.
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WarRI1
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:06 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Thread starter):
Hopefully these leaders vote on their principles, and not try any childish obstruction games

We all know that the so called leaders are known for following their Principles. We shall see. Nothing will surprise me.
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Moose135
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:21 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Thread starter):
...This is it folks. We could possibly be a few days away from the end of this ugly policy. If looks as though there are the votes to support repeal. Hopefully these leaders vote on their principles, and not try any childish obstruction games (Senator McCain).

I certainly hope so, as well. We are long past the time when this should have been repealed.
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:24 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):

We all know that the so called leaders are known for following their Principles. We shall see. Nothing will surprise me.

I'm just worried that some of these Senators will not have the integrity to vote on their true principles.

...If Scott Brown - my Senator - does not support gays in the military, then he ought to just say so! But if he votes against this bill because of the excuse, "We need to focus on the tax bill before we focus on this issue", it will be such a bullsh*t cop out.

I'm really getting tired of the fact that our government seemingly cannot work on more than one issue at a time! And the stonewalling tactic of saying that we cannot deal with subject Y, until subject X is dealt with, is pure obstructionism.
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WarRI1
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:31 am

[quote=UH60FtRucker,reply=4]I'm just worried that some of these Senators will not have the integrity to vote on their true principles.

...If Scott Brown - my Senator - does not support gays in the military, then he ought to just say so! But if he votes against this bill because of the excuse, "We need to focus on the tax bill before we focus on this issue", it will be such a bullsh*t cop out.

I'm really getting tired of the fact that our government seemingly cannot work on more than one issue at a time! And the stonewalling tactic of saying that we cannot deal with subject Y, until subject X is dealt with, is pure obstructionism.



I certainly agree with that. Obstructionism is now a fine art in Washington, although it seems like a bulldozer to me.
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Aaron747
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:19 pm

The Senate did the right thing this morning - and shame on the 31 ignoramuses who voted against it.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1210/46576.html
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DocLightning
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:23 am

UH60FtRucker,

You're hot, you're smart, and you're fair-minded. Pity DADT doesn't apply to you.  

No, in all seriousness, there's a reason you're on my RU list. And it's not just because of what you look like without a shirt on.  

So my question is: the DOD says that the new policy will take "a few months" to implement. Why does it take so long? What time-consuming steps are involved in this? It's not like this involves any new equipment or highly-specialized technical training.

Now, I would be in favor of allowing troops who are horribly opposed to this leave the Service (there'd have to be some plan to repay student loans and stuff). But it seems to me that the number who would actually quit the Service over this would be quite small... and they would probably be the people you don't want in the Service, anyway.
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Zentraedi
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:43 am

The comments on Scott Brown's Facebook page are golden:

Quoting facebook poster:
"Dear Senator Brown....now that you have voted down DADT...can you please help me with my cause of allowing blind people to serve in the military? I see no difference between them and gay members.....they can't help the way they are born....thanks!"
Quoting facebook poster:
"I suppose now you are going to rewrite the Uniform Code of Military Justice to remove sodomy and unwanted sexual assault from the code. I am glad that I now longer have to serve in a homosexual dominated Army. When we quickly turn from the best Armed Forces in the history of mankind into second rate organizations you will be sorry you voted for political correctness. I am ashamed of your vote. You will no longer have my support on your agendas. At least we knew Teddy and Barney would screw us all along. What's next - coming out of the closet and joining Barney?"
Quoting facebook poster:
"Another nail in America's coffin...you sir, have been busy with your hammer lately. Frankly, you disgust me, you are a sheep in wolf's clothing. If I were a soldier hunkered down in some God-forsaken country like Afghanistan and needed to relieve myself, the last thing I want to be worried about is some pervert looking at my junk...what in God's name are you thinking?"
Quoting facebook poster:
"Such a sad sad day for our brave troops. Sure don't understand you Senator Brown. I'm baffled and bewildered and fear for our nation's morality. Ancient Rome's immorality comes to mind. Their end was not good. Fell like a sack of bricks and I'm afraid you've dropped a ton of them."
Quoting facebook poster:
"As far as I am concerned your nothing more than a RINO and a trader to our nation. you can forget any tea party support. You just burned your last bridge."
 
cargolex
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:45 am

Quote:
Republicans objected to the way in which DADT was attached to a bill that should have been left alone and was not relevant to the policy.

In the interest of full disclosure, it's worthy of note that the DADT amendment that established the policy was enacted as an attachment to the exact same Defense Appropriations bill - ergo, the Republicans did not have a leg to stand on with this complaint.

Glad to see that this bad policy will finally be ended.

Quote:
"As far as I am concerned your nothing more than a RINO and a trader to our nation."

A trader, huh? Does he trade illegal rhinoceri? Why is it that you can't please the conservative base without being a homophobe?

[Edited 2010-12-18 19:47:53]
 
AeroWesty
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:20 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
So my question is: the DOD says that the new policy will take "a few months" to implement. Why does it take so long? What time-consuming steps are involved in this? It's not like this involves any new equipment or highly-specialized technical training.

According to the LA Times: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...-dont-ask-20101219,0,2953777.story

But Gates also cautioned Saturday that although Obama is expected to sign the measure next week, repeal will not happen immediately. Under the legislation, the policy may be altered only once new guidelines are put in place that are "consistent with the standards of military readiness, military effectiveness, unit cohesion, and recruiting and retention," he said.

So it's just a matter of new guidelines being drafted and approved.

Glad to see there were some Repubs voting to repeal DADT today.
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comorin
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:23 am

Quoting cargolex (Reply 9):
Quote:
"As far as I am concerned your nothing more than a RINO and a trader to our nation."

A trader, huh? Does he trade illegal rhinoceri? Why is it that you can't please the conservative base without being a homophobe?

I believe 'rhinoceri' has two i's - you know like in 'Airbii'.  

The conservative base is not necessarily homophobic - they are merely against recognizing and legitimizing its existence. A key issue is 'family values' which is viewed as threatened by Gay Marriage. A lot of Americans look to their Church for guidance, and that is the source of the sentiment.
 
cargolex
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:57 am

Quote:
The conservative base is not necessarily homophobic - they are merely against recognizing and legitimizing its existence.

Respectfully, I would say that these two things are one and the same - that seeking to prevent the recognition of people's existence is a fundamental form of prejudice regardless of who they are.

Quote:
A key issue is 'family values' which is viewed as threatened by Gay Marriage.

I've heard that but I really don't understand that. The same people seem to have no problem with "The Bachelor" or "Who wants to marry a millionaire" or the people who get drunk and get married on a lark in Vegas (I've actually witnessed this happen in person). Heterosexual marriages in the U.S. have a divorce rate of over 50%.

Somehow, I fail to see the logical leap here as to how gay people have anything to do with this.

Are gay people running around with Uzis forcing straight people to get divorced?
 
BAKJet
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:57 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 8):
Quoting facebook poster:
"Another nail in America's coffin...you sir, have been busy with your hammer lately. Frankly, you disgust me, you are a sheep in wolf's clothing. If I were a soldier hunkered down in some God-forsaken country like Afghanistan and needed to relieve myself, the last thing I want to be worried about is some pervert looking at my junk...what in God's name are you thinking?"

and this argument is so ridiculous..HELLO, wake up people. There are already gays serving in the military, the only difference is that now they can be open about it. In fact, I would think this guy would be happy since now the soldier "hunkered down in some God-forsaken country like Afghanistan" can make sure there are no "gay perverts looking at his junk"...just saying. Xenophobic, homophobic idiots. Sheesh. I wish they would at least TRY to think before they speak/post.Thank god DADT got repealed.
 
comorin
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:36 am

Quoting cargolex (Reply 12):
Respectfully, I would say that these two things are one and the same - that seeking to prevent the recognition of people's existence is a fundamental form of prejudice regardless of who they are.

Agreed. I was just pointing out the semantic difference - does 'the word homophobe' imply hate or does it imply rejection? Either way, it is prejudice, it's hurtful and cannot be condoned.

Quoting cargolex (Reply 12):
Somehow, I fail to see the logical leap here as to how gay people have anything to do with this.

Agreed again - there is no logical connection, but people have been threatened over the ages by others who aren't like them or even just look different. I wonder if it is just hard wired into our DNA as a defense mechanism.

Cargolex, its easy for me to ponder these questions but the gay community deals with the pain of prejudice everyday. I am glad today's vote brings us all a little closer together.
 
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Moose135
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:56 am

Quoting comorin (Reply 11):
A key issue is 'family values' which is viewed as threatened by Gay Marriage.

One thing I don't understand is how they want to "defend" and "preserve" marriage by making it illegal for some people to get married...
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kiwiandrew

RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:28 am

Glad to see that the US will finally join the growing list of countries where gay/lesbian personnel can serve in the military without having to hide themselves . I am sure that Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Lithuania, Luxembourg­, the Netherland­s, New Zealand, Norway, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerlan­d, the United Kingdom and Uruguay will be happy to welcome the US aboard .   
 
ltbewr
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:08 pm

This is a small but critical social change in the USA. This repeal has ended, as one politician noted yesterday, the last legal segregation in the USA.

It will take anywhere from at least 60 days to a full year to fully implement the repeal of DADT. New rules have to be put in, reviews of procedures and applications have to take place. There could be continuing issues in combat areas or in some highly specialized groups. I am quite sure some officers will find loopholes and show their prejudices although other established rules as to gender and sexual harassment should be a deterrent.

Nothing in this change of policy will mean that certain sexual or personal behaviors covered by other reasonable military law and rules that apply, not only for gay or heterosexuals, will end. Most importantly it means that for many in military service they will have far less worrying about being discharged for just being gay or lesbian by those outing members for their own selfish gains or religious prejudices. Some are supporting this law due to the need to retain soldiers in the military at a time of great stress to retain due to 2 wars and other demands and not have to resort to a return of drafting/conscription with it's many problems.

Many 100's of thousands of GLTB's have served honorably for over 200 years in USA military service with no real problems and contributing their lives and skills. Now we are making law to protect those that serve.
 
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:06 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):
We all know that the so called leaders are known for following their Principles.

I'd be concerned if our leaders (or more properly, the custodians of the power we, The People grant them) didn't try to follow their principles. They were elected because their principles most closely matched those of the population they represent.

Glad to see this backward, exclusionary policy is about to be overturned.
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AGM100
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:18 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 17):
the last legal segregation in the USA.



Oh no no .... there will be plenty more . All they have to do is create a in justice , group it ..package it and protest ..standby for more fun.

If UH-60 is good with it then I will trust his judgement. If a person of any type is willing to join ... endure the rigors of military training achieve rank and become a good soldier then it is a good thing. I am thankful for our soldiers ... I don't care who they are ..I trust our command and our code of honor to produce fighting men and women to protect us.
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Aaron747
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:01 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):
All they have to do is create a in justice , group it ..package it and protest ..standby for more fun.

Certainly that hasn't been the case with gays as they have clearly been pushed into second class citizenry until very recently. Sexual orientation should have no bearing on anything whatsoever provided an individual can do their job as well as you or I.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):
If UH-60 is good with it then I will trust his judgement

It shouldn't require the opinion of an active duty military servicemember or the Pentagon survey to convince you. People who want to serve should be able to do so, period, without having to lie about any aspect of who they are. It's called using logic.
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474218
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:01 pm

So when can we expect the first ACLU discrimination lawsuit filed on behalf of an openly "gay'" soldier (sounds stupid doesn't it) that has been passed over for a promotion that went to a straight soldier?
 
AGM100
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:16 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 20):
It shouldn't require the opinion of an active duty military servicemember or the Pentagon survey to convince you



Well.. UH is far better in tune to the issue of moral , cohesion etc ...than am I and that is what I care about . The Military is not the place to champion social reforms in my opinion .... but hey uncle Harry needed to bring it home for the Pres and that is all they care about.

Now for the Army's new camo scheme!... http://762precision.files.wordpress....gital-ar-15-springfield-1911-a.jpg
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Aaron747
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:28 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 21):
So when can we expect the first ACLU discrimination lawsuit filed on behalf of an openly "gay'" soldier (sounds stupid doesn't it) that has been passed over for a promotion that went to a straight soldier?

Right, because that's the agenda here   

So "soldier" can only mean "macho and straight"?? What a joke. Poke fun at the semantics all you want - it's meaningless. I have a couple of gay friends who are so ripped you'd certainly not wonder if they could handle themselves in combat, much less some retired guy who hates them. You guys are somethin else.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 22):

Well.. UH is far better in tune to the issue of moral , cohesion etc ...than am I and that is what I care about

Again this is where logic proves useful. You really think the orientation of who's next to you is going to be even a passing thought when there's terror fighters lobbing RPG rounds at your position from behind nearby rock formations? For cryin' out loud...

[Edited 2010-12-19 11:30:59]
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OA412
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:44 pm

It's about time! The repeal of this backward and antiquated policy is long overdue.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Thread starter):

   You sir are an example for all other military folks to follow. Kudos!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
You're hot, you're smart, and you're fair-minded. Pity DADT doesn't apply to you.

Down boy!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
No, in all seriousness, there's a reason you're on my RU list. And it's not just because of what you look like without a shirt on.

Sure it isn't, sure it isn't!  
Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 8):

What a bunch of ignoramuses.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 23):
Right, because that's the agenda here  

No kidding! It really is quite offensive to suggest that gay people are going to use their sexuality as a means of blackmail.
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fr8mech
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:47 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 21):
So when can we expect the first ACLU discrimination lawsuit filed on behalf of an openly "gay'" soldier (sounds stupid doesn't it) that has been passed over for a promotion that went to a straight soldier?
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 23):
Right, because that's the agenda here

I don't think that's the agenda, but I can certainly see that this will become a concern.

I don't pretend to know how military promotion boards work, but, since they are run by humans, they are clearly subject to human failures, are they not? I assume you don't take a test and become an instant captain. There is some review board. Therefore, questions will be asked if a gay officer or soldier is passed over while a straight one is not.

This issue will need to be addressed. How was the question handled after racial integration? But, that question may be moot because we are a much more litigious society now than in the '40's, '50's & '60's.

[Edited 2010-12-19 12:04:51]
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Doona
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:56 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 21):
an openly "gay'" soldier (sounds stupid doesn't it)

Why does that sound stupid?

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Aaron747
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:04 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
I don't think that's the agenda, but I can certainly see that this will become a concern.

I don't see how. If there is someone in there, gay or otherwise, looking for an excuse to sue they should be kicked out. Are Latinos and blacks getting promoted? Of course they are. Nothing will change. Trust the chain of command to do its job because they do. Now they have one less impediment toward doing so.
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fr8mech
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:08 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 27):
I don't see how. If there is someone in there, gay or otherwise, looking for an excuse to sue they should be kicked out. Are Latinos and blacks getting promoted? Of course they are. Nothing will change. Trust the chain of command to do its job because they do. Now they have one less impediment toward doing so.

Really? You don't think questions will be asked if a gay is passed over? I believe there will be. It's human nature to question the motives of those around you when you don't get what you want because of those around (or in this case, above) you.

We'll have to wait and see.
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WarRI1
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:41 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):
We all know that the so called leaders are known for following their Principles.

I was joking of course, do they have any now?



I'd be concerned if our leaders (or more properly, the custodians of the power we, The People grant them) didn't try to follow their principles. They were elected because their principles most closely matched those of the population they represent.



I am more than concerned.




Glad to see this backward, exclusionary policy is about to be overturned.

As I am.
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Aaron747
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:45 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
Really? You don't think questions will be asked if a gay is passed over? I believe there will be. It's human nature to question the motives of those around you when you don't get what you want because of those around (or in this case, above) you.

If a gay person is passed over because their service is unfit based on reports, then they deserve what they get. If there's some homophobe officer who targets a gay person, then sure - they'll have a case and the military will deal with it appropriately. I have every confidence in that - no difference than a black hearing officer targeting a white guy or a white guy targeting a Latino or otherwise. Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. But that's not the status quo, so as I say, nothing actually changes.
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FlyPNS1
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:17 pm

I was suprised to see 8 Republicans actually vote for this....I only expected 3 or 4.

It was nice to see McCain lose....what a bitter old man he has become.
 
fr8mech
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:42 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 30):
If a gay person is passed over because their service is unfit based on reports, then they deserve what they get. If there's some homophobe officer who targets a gay person, then sure - they'll have a case and the military will deal with it appropriately. I have every confidence in that - no difference than a black hearing officer targeting a white guy or a white guy targeting a Latino or otherwise. Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. But that's not the status quo, so as I say, nothing actually changes.

If all works the way it should.

But, to whom will the burden of proof fall?
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:04 am

Sorry for the late reply. But we went and celebrated our twin sons' 3rd birthday at my in-laws. Basically my own personal version of hell.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
No, in all seriousness, there's a reason you're on my RU list. And it's not just because of what you look like without a shirt on.  

So my question is: the DOD says that the new policy will take "a few months" to implement. Why does it take so long? What time-consuming steps are involved in this? It's not like this involves any new equipment or highly-specialized technical training.

Well first, thanks for the kind words... but the truth is, if you go back and look through the archives, you'll see that a few years ago I didn't feel the same way. I actually bought into the argument that DADT was flawed, but necessary. I also believed it shouldn't be repealed during a time of war. And it took one of my best friends - a guy who saved my life - to come out to me. He opened my eyes to the discrimination, the loneliness and the fear. It was him, who deserves the credit. 12 years, multiple tours, numerous awards, and all the while he quietly and professionally carried his secret burden.

As for why it will take a few months... basically the bureaucracy moves slow. All of the DoD policies will need to be rewritten. The DoD will also have to release official guidance for how it wants lower leadership to address the transition. The DoD will establish guidelines for unit leaders, explaining how they should deal with those service members who do decide to "come out", not to mention how to deal with those service members who vehemently oppose it. Also DoD Equal Opportunity regulations will have to be molded to include protection for gay service members.

...But actually a few months ago SecDef Gates mandated that the kicking out of any service member for violating DADT, would have to be personally approved by the service branch secretary. And since then, no one has been kicked out! So basically with this latest news, soldiers are able to come out now, without fear of discharge, but they may face minor punishments.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 21):
So when can we expect the first ACLU discrimination lawsuit filed on behalf of an openly "gay'" soldier (sounds stupid doesn't it) that has been passed over for a promotion that went to a straight soldier?

Huh? Why would the ACLU be involved?

Everyone's acting like this is this all some huge uncharted territory, when it's not! We already have a well established frame work to deal with these issues. We already have a system in place that deals with investigating discrimination based on race and gender. And the truth is, while we may never be able to truly stamp out unequal treatment of minorities or females... the military has a pretty damn good track record on promoting individuals based on their performance rather than the color of the skin, or their lack of twig and berries.

Not to mention... I think a lot of people have absolutely no idea how promotions work in the military. A lot of people seem to think it's like how the civilian world works: the boss picks. But that's wrong.

In fact, the military promotes via three main ways: time in service (which means all you have to do is serve until X period and your promotion is automatic), points (you earn promotion points through various requirements and once you reach your points, you are promoted), and lastly via promotion boards (a group of strangers evaluate your promotion packet and vote. However, gender, age, race, etc. are all blind and the board only has access to your performance reports).

...So why do people think that all of a sudden this huge up swell of anti-gay promotions will occur???


Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):
If all works the way it should.

But, to whom will the burden of proof fall?

See above.

...If a service member is discriminated against because of their orientation, it's wrong. And while yes,

[Edited 2010-12-19 16:07:03]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:17 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 33):
Well first, thanks for the kind words... but the truth is, if you go back and look through the archives, you'll see that a few years ago I didn't feel the same way. I actually bought into the argument that DADT was flawed, but necessary. I also believed it shouldn't be repealed during a time of war. And it took one of my best friends - a guy who saved my life - to come out to me. He opened my eyes to the discrimination, the loneliness and the fear. It was him, who deserves the credit. 12 years, multiple tours, numerous awards, and all the while he quietly and professionally carried his secret burden.

Actually , in a way , I find this more impressive than if you had been pro-repeal all along . I admire you for being open enough to take another look at your beliefs about DADT , and for being honest here on the forum about having changed your mind .
 
zanl188
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:35 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 33):
In fact, the military promotes via three main ways: time in service (which means all you have to do is serve until X period and your promotion is automatic), points (you earn promotion points through various requirements and once you reach your points, you are promoted), and lastly via promotion boards (a group of strangers evaluate your promotion packet and vote.

Picking a nit here... that's how the ARMY promotes people... not necessarily the military in general...
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
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DocLightning
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:43 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 33):

Well first, thanks for the kind words... but the truth is, if you go back and look through the archives, you'll see that a few years ago I didn't feel the same way.

Yeah, that's what's admirable. Someone willing to admit he was wrong.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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N1120A
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:50 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 21):
So when can we expect the first ACLU discrimination lawsuit filed on behalf of an openly "gay'" soldier (sounds stupid doesn't it) that has been passed over for a promotion that went to a straight soldier?
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
Really? You don't think questions will be asked if a gay is passed over? I believe there will be.

The ACLU has already been involved and a strong force in repealing this disgusting, un-American policy.

Further, I think there will and should be significant litigation if gay soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines are passed over. Then again, I find it ironic that Title VII will provide less civil rights protection than the military after DADT is fully repealed.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Maverick623
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:56 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 35):

Picking a nit here... that's how the ARMY promotes people... not necessarily the military in general...

All branches promote the same exact way, with the only differences being in how you get promotion points and such. What he described was the same way I've seen friends and family get promoted in the Air Force, Army, and Marines. Unfortunately, I don't personally know anyone in the Navy, so I can't speak for them. But I'd be willing to bet they do it the same way.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
zanl188
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:48 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 38):
All branches promote the same exact way, with the only differences being in how you get promotion points and such.

I'm 23 years retired Air Force and nobody in that time ever got promoted by reaching a certain level of "promotion points" as UH60 described it.

There are numerous differences in how the services promote people and in fact the rank structures themselves vary. For example the AF has no promotion boards for E-7 and below.
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:25 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 35):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 38):
Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 39):

Well hey... the truth of the matter is this: the entire point of my post wasn't to give an in depth education on how the military promotion system works. It was a broad and general overview. Were there gaps and broad strokes? Of course. But... come'on... who really cares?

The entire point, was to show that the overall system is very much unlike what most civilians are accustomed too. And to show them that race, sex, age, and orientation are not factors.

So lets move on.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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Tugger
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:22 pm

Well congratulations USA! The President signed the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell today!

Though I wish it had been done sooner and without as much hand-wringing (we have an excellent and professional military), I am glad that it is now done and we can move on.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:25 pm

So it's official. President Obama signed the repeal into law.

Quote:
People will look back at this moment, and wonder, "Why was there ever a source of controversy?"
Quote:
For we are not a nation that says "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", we are a nation that says that out of many, we are one. We are a nation that welcomes the service of every patriot. We are a nation that believes that all men and women are created equal. Those are the ideals that generations have fought, those are the ideals that we up hold today.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/presi...-repeal-dont-law/story?id=12457296
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Venus6971
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:39 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 42):
So it's official. President Obama signed the repeal into law.

But article 125 of the UCMJ is still on the books.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:43 pm

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 43):

But article 125 of the UCMJ is still on the books.

But is it A) Actually enforced? How many straight service members get arrested for having consensual oral/anal sex with their partners and B) Is it enforceable given Lawrence v. Texas? I'm legitimately asking here - not sure how stare decisis effects the UCMJ.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
AGM100
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:49 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 23):
Again this is where logic proves useful. You really think the orientation of who's next to you is going to be even a passing thought when there's terror fighters lobbing RPG rounds at your position from behind nearby rock formations? For cryin' out loud...



No I am not concerned about that at all... not at all. Soldiers will react and act according to there training in times of fire. Human will , bravery and selflessness are natural elements that I believe are common to most humans. Sexual orientation is irrelevant when in those extreme conditions in my opinion. However ... combat troops spend 80-90% of there career out of those extreme conditions. Long hours of training, patrolling , bivouacking and garrison duty is more of a concern to me. I understand that many many gay's serve now and do so bravely and patriotically... I am less worried about them than I am the average Army / Marine boneheaded dog foot. Sorry ..but what is going to happen when some boot head slams a openly gay fellow trooper ?

I had the pleasure of spending some time with my brothers Platoon attached to (1st MD / 3 AAB) in Diego a few years ago ... man .. I am not sure I would want to be a openly gay man trying to fit in with those freaking jar heads. Every derogatory verbal slam on ones sexual preference was levied at anyone who could not pull a triple shot of tequila or slam a entire 24 oz Dos Equis. So if the average gay soldier does not mind being referred to as a certain part of the female anatomy from time to time ... then join up and have fun. The jar heads are fool of piss and vinegar and ready too "eat our own guts"... and they run into a enemy positions because they don't want there buddy to call them a name... that's it , and that cohesion is what it is. These are not PC Metro men ...they are frighteningly coarse and vile and ready to kill . I think that spirit ( right or wrong ) will go away.. and only time will tell if that is a good thing.

I just don't see Gunny Hartmen screaming " Are you a intolerant homophobe ?"!!! to a boot at Paris Island.... ya see ?

All that said ... I also heard the story of the US Navy female officer pilot who was discharged for kissing her girlfriend off base. That is wrong !! and so I will trust military command to implement this regulation change and make our military better.

Move on ....
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Venus6971
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:56 pm

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 46):

Well lets say if a gay serviceman reports to sick call with problems due to having consensual sex and as to have a operation that takes him out of action. They give us artical 15's for getting severely sunburned or getting hurt when we are drunk. Gays can be gay all they want but if you are a GI, Uncle Sam owns you.God has your soul,your lover has your heart, and Uncle Sam has your ass. Any damage you do to that ass and or any other part that you do willfully is considered damage to government property. G.I.s around bases that have brothels which under human trafficking laws are forbidden for us to visit, think Clark and Subic Bay for those who remember or aware of we had many a guy showing up to the clinic with a STD, the second offense or dose was usally followed up by some Non-Judical punishment.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
PSA53
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:13 pm

It's about time! This is the only part of gay politics that I'm 100% in favor of .How could you deny anyone from entering the arm forces to defend our nation.It's also about time that some in the media are fessing up to the fact Bill Clinton wrote DADT in first place.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:20 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 44):

I would completely disagree. But I would welcome any supporting arguments you may have.

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 43):
But article 125 of the UCMJ is still on the books.

The DoD implementation plan for the integration of gay service members, includes the repeal of this article. Problem solved.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Venus6971
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RE: US House Of Reps: Vote In Favor Of Repeal Dadt

Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:35 pm

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 46):

To follow up, if said gay serviceman is healed and back on duty with a lighter wallet and one less pay grade with instructions from his commander to abstain from anal sex. The serviceman goes ahead an does it again and ends up in sick call again and out action again . Besides being stupid he is now again in violation of the UCMJ with the further offense of willfully disobeying a lawful order. This is the time the commander starts the paper work for seperation from the service with less than a honorable discharge. When we can no longer trust him to take care of himself how can we trust him with critical duties.
Another point, gay servicemember has his annual flight physical, they draw blood to test for everything then they find out he is HIV positive, they look in records and find no procedure that required a blood transfusion and the only time he was sticked with a needle was for immunizations from the clinic whic they use a clean/new needle for each innaculation and his last flight physical. He is immediatley removed from flight status, not deployable, no longer a blood donor, he is a danger to everybody around him in a combat situation with mass casualties with his infected blood mixing with other wounded servicemembers. I'm not a Doctor but I am more than certain they haven't found a cure yet for HIV.
He most likely will be put into administrative duties awaiting a medical evaluation board or a discharge from service.
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