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Aaron747
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New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:48 pm

Oh for crying out loud - instead of letting them continue to make idiots of themselves, new Governor Neil Abercrombie is going to preside over a resurgence in the "birther" movement by trying to release more information about Obama's birth here in the Aloha state. What is he thinking? Massive budget shortfalls for 2011, a failed rail transit vision, chronic homelessness and a broken state education system are just a few of the things on his plate. Craziness.

I would also like to know how they are going to release records for one guy when state law clearly defines such records as private. The last Republican administration already passed a law to allow the state health department to ignore frivolous record requests from "birther" morons that were tying up their personnel.

Neil Abercrombie, who was a friend of Obama’s parents when the president was a baby, has only been governor of Hawaii for less than three weeks, but he’s said in interviews this week that he’s already initiated a process to make policy changes that would allow Hawaii to release additional evidence that Obama was born in Honolulu on Aug. 4, 1961.

“What bothers me is that some people who should know better are trying to use this for political reasons"


Uhm yeah, like maybe trying to regain some of the earmark money Hawaii is losing? Get real Neil.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1210/46797.html
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luv2fly
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New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:29 am

Well him, Palin and the nut job Govener from AZ, we not dipping into a gene pool with much depth.
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DocLightning
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New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:31 am

The problem is that for a conspiracy theory, ANYTHING that doesn't fit with the theory is "part of the conspiracy."

There is NO EVIDENCE EVER THAT CAN EVER BE PRESENTED that will convince a true "Birther." You will be more likely to convince the Pope to be an atheist. They can even go so far as to say that Obama was switched for another Black kid who was genuinely born in Hawaii. And you can't prove that never happened, as absurd as the claim is and even though the burden of proof falls to the claimant.
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seb146
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New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:08 am

So, the previous REPUBLICAN governer allowed how many copies of the birth certificate to be authinticated even before Obama was the official nominee? Why didn't anyone make a huge noise like this back then?
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fr8mech
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New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:09 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
The problem is that for a conspiracy theory, ANYTHING that doesn't fit with the theory is "part of the conspiracy."

Absolutely correct.

But, let me add my own conspiracy to this conspiracy:

Don't you think it's to the Democrats' advantage to keep the Birthers 'alive'. Everytime one of them opens their mouths it sets back Conservatives. Could this just be a poke at the dying embers to make sure the fire is still there? I'm just saying (or writing, as the case may be).
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MSPNWA
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New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:41 am

Bring it on, Governor. Prove the unprovable.
 
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Aaron747
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New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:26 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):

Don't you think it's to the Democrats' advantage to keep the Birthers 'alive'.

Whoa that was quick...

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):
Bring it on, Governor. Prove the unprovable.

What is unprovable about documents that have been verified by state officials and the two term ex-Republican governor? Would really love to know.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
BMI727
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New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:41 am

This is ridiculous. And these people are all conspiracy theorists. To them, lack of evidence is evidence, since it's obviously being covered up. No amount of logic can dissuade them.
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fr8mech
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New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:38 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):
Bring it on, Governor. Prove the unprovable.

What is unprovable about documents that have been verified by state officials and the two term ex-Republican governor? Would really love to know.

Not quite sure how that line is attributed to me. I have no issue with Obama's birth location.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
ltbewr
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:50 am

If the President had been born in Kansas vs. 'exotic' and then new state of Hawaii', I bet there would be none of this 'birther' nonsense in the first place.

You have millions of persons who are so racist, so anti-Islamic (especially in the post-9/11 era), so against anyone to the left of Ronald Reagan, would gain personally by any Republican as President (lower taxes, massive cuts in spending on the middle class entitlements, government care of the poor), that they want to discredit or at least take down the President in some stupid 'gotcha' way.

Perhaps the Governor of Hawaii will have to ask for written permission, perhaps even an Executive Order, to put out the most original record to be published on the front page of the biggest newspaper in the State and finally end all this BS. Then Democrats should call for a like publication of the full State birth records of top Republican potential candidates like Sara Palin just to give her a hard time and call the radical right's bluff.
 
Mudboy
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:11 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 9):
You have millions of persons who are so racist, so anti-Islamic (especially in the post-9/11 era), so against anyone to the left of Ronald Reagan, would gain personally by any Republican as President (lower taxes, massive cuts in spending on the middle class entitlements, government care of the poor), that they want to discredit or at least take down the President in some stupid 'gotcha' way.

How original, the race card, let's just throw that trump card out there! Because everyone that wants Pres. Obama out, is racist, right? Everyone that wants to challange where he was born, no matter how stupid we all think this issue is, is only doing it because of race, right? Explain to me the difference in what "the Birthers" or whatever these idiots call themselves are doing any different from what all the Dems did and said, during the the Bush Administration? It is low blow "Gotcha Politics"! WHAT EVER WE CAN DO TO KNOCK THE OTHER GUY DOWN! The only difference is Pres. Obama is black, so he get's protected by the race card, right?

US Politics are not about improving the country and helping the people, it is "do whatever I can to stay in office, and make the opposition look bad".Both sides are guilty of this behavior. Politicians in the US have become a lower life form, than car salesmen.

As for this new Gov of HI, I hope he can end this silliness, so we don't have to hear it anymore; at least until the next "Gotcha" scandal comes to life.
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Quokka
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:31 pm

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 10):
US Politics are not about improving the country and helping the people, it is "do whatever I can to stay in office, and make the opposition look bad".Both sides are guilty of this behavior. Politicians in the US have become a lower life form, than car salesmen.


Sadly this assessment can be applied to so many other countries, including my own.

But the rest of your post leaves me a bit confused. Perhaps you can clear things up for me. Was Bush challenged on the basis of where he was born?

I think it is probably fair to say that opposition to Obama is based on (in no particular order):
he's not a Republican;
he wasn't born in mainland USA and spent a lot of his childhood overseas;
somewhere along the line one of his paternal ancestors may have been a Muslim;
he seems able to quote form the Quran as easily as some can quote from the Bible;
he (despite having a white mother) is not considered white; and
he hasn't delivered what he promised.

That he may prove to be an ineffective President may be justification for his not being re-nominated/ re-elected. But that isn't the basis for the Birthers' challenge.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:56 pm

I'm sick of hearing about this crap. Do I like the guy? No. Do I wish someone else was president? Yes. But he is president and will be president until Jan 2013 and people just need to accept it.
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mham001
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:03 pm

I don't really care, but to those who seem upset by this latest, are you equally upset about Wikileaks? Wouldn't this be considered "transparency".
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:10 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 13):
I don't really care, but to those who seem upset by this latest, are you equally upset about Wikileaks? Wouldn't this be considered "transparency".

You could very well call it transparency. But I think both Wikileaks and the Birthers should just be quiet.
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LMP737
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:20 pm

If I were the President I would have been on the phone to the governor asking him "What the hell are you doing?"
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slider
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:28 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
There is NO EVIDENCE EVER THAT CAN EVER BE PRESENTED that will convince a true "Birther."

Sure there is. A long form birth certificate. Not a COLB.

As has already been established in our many arguments on this forum, the Certificate of Live Birth verifies nothing; in 1961, there were 3 ways to obtain the short-form COLB. Anyone having “knowledge of a birth” could send a mail form in and get it; a parent of knowledgeable adult could file for a “delayed certificate” up to a year afterwards; or for children for whom no delayed cert was requested could obtain a document called a ‘certificate of Hawaiian birth.” HI often issues, to this day and certainly in 1961, frequent COLBs to families of children born overseas. Not uncommon but not a verifying document.

We’ve seen the original long from birth certificate from a Susan Nordyke, born in the same hospital a day after Obama, so we know those records exist and were/are filed together originally.

Now, as many have said, the COLB could be based on the long form birth certificate of Obama’s, but since he won’t release it, we don’t know! It’s not the vast radical conspiracy of some fringe kook element, but the steady conviction of wanting what we, as American citizens, believe is the right thing to do. And now Chris Matthews is now getting in the act, wanting Obama to release it too. Surprising, since he still has the tingle up his leg and all.

Hey, it’s simple—just release it, Barry. Along with your college records and all the mysterious documents that don’t exist that the media doesn’t seem to even care about. We know more about third world dictators than we do about Obama. Personally, he’s in, he was elected, and I shudder to think of the constitutional and practical crisis that would occur if it were ever clarified that he weren’t eligible, but I still would like to see it.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:36 pm

I have a citizenship question. If you are born outside the United States to a parent(s) that are American doesn't that make you a full United States citizen any way because your parents are citizens?
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PacNWjet
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:40 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 9):
Perhaps the Governor of Hawaii will have to ask for written permission, perhaps even an Executive Order, to put out the most original record to be published on the front page of the biggest newspaper in the State and finally end all this BS.

I could be mistaken, but my minimal research on this topic indicates that all of the documents Governor Abercrombie wants to release could be released today (without any action whatsoever on the governor's part) if Barack Obama were to give permission. My understanding, which could very well be wrong, is that current Hawaii law requires the consent of someone with an interest in the matter to release original long-form birth certificates (and related documents). So what Abercrombie wants to release could be released within the hour if Obama gave the O.K. and that would require no change to existing laws. Assuming these are facts about current Hawaii law, either Obama doesn't want to authorize the release of the long-form birth certificate, doesn't have the time to do it, or doesn't realize that he has the authority to do it. There may be other reasons why he hasn't done so to date, but those are the three reasons I can come up with.

(By the way, the widely circulated official document that documents Obama's birth is the short-form "Certificate of Live Birth" which contains less information than the long-form birth certificate, at least from what I understand.)

My own hunch is that Obama doesn't want the original long-form birth certificate released. I could imagine two reasons why this would be the case: 1) Keeping the issue alive allows the White House to depict its opponents as a bunch of kooks who can be lumped in with the "birthers." 2) There is something else in the birth certificate quite apart from the location of Obama's birth that might be embarrassing to the president. What that could be is anybody's guess, but one way to end the speculation is to release the birth certificate unless, as I say, the reason for keeping it private is to keep the "birthers" around as a convenient foil.
 
PacNWjet
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:52 pm

Quoting jetBlueguy22 (Reply 17):
I have a citizenship question. If you are born outside the United States to a parent(s) that are American doesn't that make you a full United States citizen any way because your parents are citizens?

Article 2, Section 1 of the United States Constitution states that:

"No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

What "natural born Citizen" means is not clearly defined in the Constitution and has been debated since the Constitution was adopted.

According to the website constitution.net:

"The 14th Amendment defines citizenship this way: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." But even this does not get specific enough. As usual, the Constitution provides the framework for the law, but it is the law that fills in the gaps. The Constitution authorizes the Congress to do create clarifying legislation in Section 5 of the 14th Amendment; the Constitution, in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4, also allows the Congress to create law regarding naturalization, which includes citizenship.

Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in the gaps left by the Constitution. Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"

* Anyone born inside the United States *
* Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe
* Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
* Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
* Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
* A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S."

Source: http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html

As some a.netters may remember, a small handful of people filed court challenges to John McCain's presidential candidacy in 2008 because McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Here is what constitution.net say about that:

"In 2008, when Arizona Senator John McCain ran for president on the Republican ticket, some theorized that because McCain was born in the Canal Zone, he was not actually qualified to be president. However, it should be noted that section 1403 was written to apply to a small group of people to whom section 1401 did not apply. McCain is a natural-born citizen under 8 USC 1401(c): "a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person." Not everyone agrees that this section includes McCain — but absent a court ruling either way, we must presume citizenship."

Source: http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html
 
mham001
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:10 pm

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 19):
Article 2, Section 1 of the United States Constitution states that:

"No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President;
Quoting jetBlueguy22 (Reply 17):
I have a citizenship question. If you are born outside the United States to a parent(s) that are American doesn't that make you a full United States citizen any way because your parents are citizens?

There is the issue of the definition of 'natural-born' and while it has been an issue many times, it has varied over time and never fully settled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:44 pm

Alright thanks for the responses. It seems that even if he was born in another country (which he was not) he is still eligible for the presidency because of his American mother. I thought thats what it was but wasn't sure.
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D L X
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:11 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 16):
the Certificate of Live Birth verifies nothing

Except that you were born in the place that it said you were born.

This is seriously the dumbest argument. This is the kind of argument that people repeat and repeat and repeat until hopefully someone thinks that because they've heard it so many times, it must be true.

The Certificate of Live Birth is what the U.S. Passport Office uses to determine your birthplace. It damn sure is therefore good enough for you.

Quoting jetBlueguy22 (Reply 17):
If you are born outside the United States to a parent(s) that are American doesn't that make you a full United States citizen any way because your parents are citizens?

Yes. Evidence: John McCain, who was ACTUALLY born outside the United States.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:41 pm

Quoting jetBlueguy22 (Reply 21):
It seems that even if he was born in another country (which he was not) he is still eligible for the presidency because of his American mother. I thought thats what it was but wasn't sure.

Yes, the consular officer in Japan who certified my kids' Consular Report of Birth Abroad made a big point of telling me that they'd still be considered "natural born citizens" despite being born in Japan, simply because I was their father. I don't think this is always the case though as the precedent is inconsistent.

Quoting Slider (Reply 16):
Hey, it’s simple—just release it, Barry.

And stop the parade of frothing-at-the-mouth coming out of the woodwork? I'd get a kick out of this if I were in his position as well...

Quoting Slider (Reply 16):
It’s not the vast radical conspiracy of some fringe kook element, but the steady conviction of wanting what we, as American citizens, believe is the right thing to do.

Since you neglected to answer in the other thread, I'll ask again:

Do you believe a conspiracy began in Honolulu in 1961, and has multiple conspiring parties including the recent two-term Republican governor and various state officials?

Since none of the other birther eligibility lawsuits have been given a moment's thought by the SCOTUS, perhaps you guys would be better off donating money to this Hawaiian guy who is arguing Obama is not eligible due to Hawaii's unresolved status as an occupied territory:

http://www.hawaiiankingdom.org/sai-obama.shtml

Quoting Slider (Reply 16):
Not uncommon but not a verifying document.

The Federal government (IRS, SSA, DOS for passports et al), including documentation required for members of the military from this state, disagrees with you.

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 18):
1) Keeping the issue alive allows the White House to depict its opponents as a bunch of kooks who can be lumped in with the "birthers." 2) There is something else in the birth certificate quite apart from the location of Obama's birth that might be embarrassing to the president.

1) Absolutely. Non-release has been a political calculation from day one. Despite polls with some 40% of Republicans questioning Obama's birthplace, there was a 378-0 vote on a House measure commemorating Hawaii's 50th year of statehood that included a statement Obama was born there. Where was all the GOP opposition?? Only 20 no-shows and 158 'yeas'.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll647.xml

2) This is entirely possible. Given what I know about racial profiling in Hawaii and the climate that existed here in the '50s and '60s, I wouldn't be at all surprised if his mother asked that his ethnicity be indicated 'Caucasian' on the document, which would shoot a giant hole in the "first black president" bit.

[Edited 2010-12-29 10:44:58]
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slider
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:59 pm

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 18):
(By the way, the widely circulated official document that documents Obama's birth is the short-form "Certificate of Live Birth" which contains less information than the long-form birth certificate, at least from what I understand.)

Exactly. What people still aren't getting is that to receive a COLB one needs only to apply by mail for it. There's no legitimacy for it. It's as legit as a driver's license is for illegals that would claim citizenship with it.

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 18):
My own hunch is that Obama doesn't want the original long-form birth certificate released. I could imagine two reasons why this would be the case: 1) Keeping the issue alive allows the White House to depict its opponents as a bunch of kooks who can be lumped in with the "birthers."

BINGO. That's exactly it. It's a polarizing tool.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 23):
Since you neglected to answer in the other thread, I'll ask again:

Do you believe a conspiracy began in Honolulu in 1961, and has multiple conspiring parties including the recent two-term Republican governor and various state officials?

Since none of the other birther eligibility lawsuits have been given a moment's thought by the SCOTUS, perhaps you guys would be better off donating money to this Hawaiian guy who is arguing Obama is not eligible due to Hawaii's unresolved status as an occupied territory:

I am not a conspiracy kook, no, I'd just like to see it. Also, the fact it wasn't heard by SCOTUS means nothing either. Under what authority do they have to unseal state documents?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 23):
The Federal government (IRS, SSA, DOS for passports et al), including documentation required for members of the military from this state, disagrees with you

Again, that means nothing. See my point about driver's licensing.
 
LMP737
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:07 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 16):
Hey, it’s simple—just release it, Barry. Along with your college records and all the mysterious documents that don’t exist that the media doesn’t seem to even care about.



Why don't you ask Jimmy Carter, GWB I, Bill Clinton and GWB II to release theirs as well? Also, do you think it will really matter to the birthers what sort of documentation is released.

Quoting Slider (Reply 24):
I am not a conspiracy kook, no, I'd just like to see it.



See above.
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Aaron747
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:14 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 24):
I am not a conspiracy kook, no, I'd just like to see it.

For what? It has been verified over and over again. I'm sorry, I don't believe you. Two birth announcements in different newspapers in 1961, which was based on information released by hospitals in those days. A reasonable person understands what that means.

Quoting Slider (Reply 24):
Also, the fact it wasn't heard by SCOTUS means nothing either.

Sure, it means they think granting certiorari on the case of eligibility is not important enough to be in the 1% that gets through.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
mbmbos
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:16 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 24):
I am not a conspiracy kook, no, I'd just like to see it.

And why would you be when it's so much easier to sew seeds out doubt without taking any personal responsibility for it?
 
LMP737
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:01 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 5):
Bring it on, Governor. Prove the unprovable.



Let me explain how it works in the USA. If you make a claim about someone, in this case the birthers saying the President was not born in the US, it is up to you to prove it. So far the birthers have not done this.
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DocLightning
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:28 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 9):
If the President had been born in Kansas vs. 'exotic' and then new state of Hawaii', I bet there would be none of this 'birther' nonsense in the first place.

No, it is because his father was from Africa and he is mixed-race with a decidedly non-American name. If his name were Jim Smith and he were white, this would never have happened.

Quoting Slider (Reply 16):

Sure there is. A long form birth certificate. Not a COLB.

You make my point. There is no such thing as a "long form birth certificate." If there is, then please post a copy of yours, because I sure don't have a copy of mine.
-Doc Lightning-

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mham001
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:45 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 26):
For what? It has been verified over and over again. I'm sorry, I don't believe you. Two birth announcements in different newspapers in 1961, which was based on information released by hospitals in those days. A reasonable person understands what that means.

Ahh, I've been waiting. You have been posting incessantly as a Wikileaks supporter, transparency in government and all that. Why would you be opposed to this transparency?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:04 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 30):
You have been posting incessantly as a Wikileaks supporter, transparency in government and all that.

Yeah, so? Entirely different issue. There are ongoing issues as to whether engagement with certain countries as presently conducted is in the best interest of American taxpayers. For that reason, I don't believe Wikileaks is entirely in the wrong.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 30):
Why would you be opposed to this transparency?

This is not transparency - this is not whether an individual cheated his taxes or took donations from untoward parties. A birth certificate is not a communique between two nations ostensibly engaged in foreign relations at taxpayer expense, which requires transparency.
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:13 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 31):
This is not transparency - this is not whether an individual cheated his taxes or took donations from untoward parties. A birth certificate is not a communique between two nations ostensibly engaged in foreign relations at taxpayer expense, which requires transparency.

Ahh, that's quite the dance you're doing there. Arguing for complete transparency from government, including things meant 'secret' but excusing the same from the most powerful PUBLIC OFFICIAL in the world. How could proving your place of birth, a requisite for the job, for which the public pays, be anything BUT "transparency"?

BTW, I really don't care about this issue, but I do find the hypocrisy coming from you on this mind-numbing.
 
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:22 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 32):
Ahh, that's quite the dance you're doing there

??? This is a non-issue to me. The POTUS's eligibility is not legitimately in question, thus there is no dance. Required documents were submitted, have been fact-checked, have had challenges refused by numerous courts, and that's more than enough for me.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 32):
Arguing for complete transparency from government, including things meant 'secret'

Secrets that may or may not be in the interest of the taxpaying public require some accountability, do they not? In any case, to be accurate, I actually said that the release of the diplomatic cables might accelerate confrontation or otherwise provide resolution to stalemated issues, which is better to me than continued political BS for decades with requisite cost and political consequence.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 32):
How could proving your place of birth, a requisite for the job

...except that it was proven.

http://www.factcheck.org/tag/birth-certificate/
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:45 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):

You make my point. There is no such thing as a "long form birth certificate." If there is, then please post a copy of yours, because I sure don't have a copy of mine.

From Factcheck.org (btw my birth certificate includes all the information as Hawaii's long form, but sorry, I am not posting a copy.)
The document is a "certification of birth," also known as a short-form birth certificate. The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional information such as birth weight and parents' hometowns. The short form is printed by the state and draws from a database with fewer details. The Hawaii Department of Health's birth record request form does not give the option to request a photocopy of your long-form birth certificate, but their short form has enough information to be acceptable to the State Department. We tried to ask the Hawaii DOH why they only offer the short form, among other questions, but they have not given a response.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 33):
??? This is a non-issue to me. The POTUS's eligibility is not legitimately in question, thus there is no dance. Required documents were submitted, have been fact-checked, have had challenges refused by numerous courts, and that's more than enough for me.

If secret cables and conversataions between diplomats cannot be kept secret, why is the President's birthweigth and parents hometown a secret?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 33):
I actually said that the release of the diplomatic cables might accelerate confrontation or otherwise provide resolution to stalemated issues, which is better to me than continued political BS for decades with requisite cost and political consequence.

And the exact same can be said about Obama's papers, but you've already expressed joy in a previous post about the "continued political BS". How is that not hypocritical?

I actually have more of a problem with his refusal to release his school records than this. Anybody running for president should be an open book from birth. There should be no secrets there, there are no benefits of keeping them.
 
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:57 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 34):
If secret cables and conversataions between diplomats cannot be kept secret, why is the President's birthweigth and parents hometown a secret?

Categorically fallacious.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 34):
And the exact same can be said about Obama's papers, but you've already expressed joy in a previous post about the "continued political BS". How is that not hypocritical?

Hardly. Political BS between countries that advances impediments to business relations, strategic planning, and better cooperation among nations has far-reaching consequences that come at great cost to taxpayers.

Americans have already screwed the pooch politically, and if you read the initial post correctly, you'd see that I think Abercrombie is an idiot for stoking the fire on something that has already been settled for everyone still sane. That said, the political BS that comes with the "birther" movement is more theatre than any legitimate political cause, and that's all the more reason we should rather be focused on the issues the state faces.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 34):
I actually have more of a problem with his refusal to release his school records than this.

I would certainly agree with that.
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:48 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
You make my point. There is no such thing as a "long form birth certificate." If there is, then please post a copy of yours, because I sure don't have a copy of mine.

Already asked and answered above by mham. I wasn't born in HI. I only have the original stamped one that I had.

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 27):
And why would you be when it's so much easier to sew seeds out doubt without taking any personal responsibility for it?

I take total responsibility for everything I've said on this matter and none of it has been inflammatory, unfair, or hateful. I just think it's a fair question to ask and it should be answered. I think the key element of this that people are lost in, and this is stirctly my opinion, is that it comes down to a matter of transparency. We have a president who promised the most honest, transparent administration ever. We've gotten nothing of a sort. Promised all bills to be read and a debate period; poof, no such thing. Promised integrity, yet won't release college records or ANY personal records. It comes down to a matter of trust, but verification. For a man who is the leader of the free world, we don't know shit about him, really. And he deliberately makes it so. Crede sed proba...

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 25):
Why don't you ask Jimmy Carter, GWB I, Bill Clinton and GWB II to release theirs as well? Also, do you think it will really matter to the birthers what sort of documentation is released.

I would like to take you seriously, but to do so would affront your intelligence. It's never been a question until now, save perhaps for Chester Arthur.
 
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:50 pm

I honestly hope President Obama doesn't release his birth certificate. Don't negotiate with [political] terrorists. If they aren't convinced yet, I don't think they'll ever be
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:54 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 36):
unfair

Unfair is asking to see more when sufficient proof has already been provided.

Quoting Slider (Reply 36):
We have a president who promised the most honest, transparent administration ever. We've gotten nothing of a sort.

I've started threads on that very topic way back when and mostly agree, but the "birther" stuff is just gobbledy-gook. And again you don't respond to the facts going back to 1961.
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:06 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 36):
For a man who is the leader of the free world, we don't know shit about him, really. And he deliberately makes it so.

We know every bit as much about him as we have known about any other presidential candidate to come before him. We know as much about him as is required by law. We could play this game with any other candidate or previous president. This is merely gamesmanship that has been brought about to sew seeds of doubt without taking a stand or making an accusation.
 
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:21 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 36):
I would like to take you seriously, but to do so would affront your intelligence. It's never been a question until now, save perhaps for Chester Arthur.



That response just shows the intellectual dishonesty of the birther movement. When posed that question regarding former presidents they either go mute or they give that lame answer "It's never been a question until now".

Did it ever enter your mind as to why it was not an issue? I'm guessing no. Both Woodrow Wilson and Herbert Hoover had a foreign born parent. Why was it not an issue then?

So once again, where's the proof that all that the former Presidents I listed were born in the US? Can you show it to me? I'm waiting.

[Edited 2010-12-29 16:26:41]
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:55 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 38):
Unfair is asking to see more when sufficient proof has already been provided.

If it is unfair to ask, then why is Neil Abercrombie trying to find a way to release the documents despite the fact that Obama has not done so? This thread is (or should be) about Abercrombie's stated intention to try and find a way to alter the laws to get the long-form birth certificate released. This thread, as they say in journalism, is about "moving the story forward." That the birthers are out-of-line in their demands has already been established. The question before us is, why is Abercrombie responding to what may very well be unreasonable demands despite Obama's apparent strategy of ignoring the issue?

My own take on this has been stated above: I believe either Obama is using the issue to paint his opponents as kooks who can be lumped in with the birthers, or there is something else in the long-form birth certificate, quite apart from the location of Obama's birth, that would be embarrassing (to Obama or someone else). I am no prophet, but my prediction is that Obama contacts Abercrombie privately and requests that Abercrombie drop the matter. This will keep the birther conspiracy alive, thus making the birthers (and other Obama opponents) look stupid which I think may be Obama's game.

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 39):
We know every bit as much about him as we have known about any other presidential candidate to come before him. We know as much about him as is required by law.

Which again begs the question, why is Abecrombie doing this? I believe he is a genuinely concerned person who wants to aid a friend (Obama) whom he sees unfairly attacked. However, if Obama wanted the long-form birth certificate released, he already would have done so on his own. So I return to my prediction that Obama will convince Abercrombie to drop the matter either because Obama gets too much political mileage out of it, or because there is something in the birth certificate unrelated to the location of birth that could be embarrassing to Obama or someone else.
 
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:06 am

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 41):
The question before us is, why is Abercrombie responding to what may very well be unreasonable demands despite Obama's apparent strategy of ignoring the issue?

Frankly, if you see some of the stufff the guy is pushing despite a huge budget shortfall, you just have to question his sanity overall.

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 41):
I am no prophet, but my prediction is that Obama contacts Abercrombie privately and requests that Abercrombie drop the matter.

Hopefully you're right.

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 41):
I believe he is a genuinely concerned person who wants to aid a friend (Obama) whom he sees unfairly attacked.

Probably so though I think he was more a friend of Obama's parents than Obama himself. The local press is fixated on everything Obama and Abercrombie doesn't actually seem very close to him, meanwhile Obama has spent a lot of time with childhood friends at his compound.
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:11 am

Mark my words: if this "long-form" certificate is released, then the Birthers will then state that
1) There is something wrong with its authenticity
2) It's forged and that this is a Democratic/Communist plot
3) Barak Obama is actually not the individual for whom the birth certificate was made and that he was swapped out for another kid at a young age.
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:44 am

Part of the issue as to the 'birthers' is the Constitutional requirement for a President to be a 'natural born citizen' in the USA and have lived at least a certain number of years (10)? in the USA or it's territories. That can include any of the current 50 states, USA territories at the time of birth (Puerto Rico, USVI, Guam, etc.) and as an extension that applies to Sen. McCain, on a USA military base and within the Panama Canal Zone, a US Territory at the time of his birth.

As to the 'Long Form' Birth Record, it may include a lot of very detailed personal information as to the parents and birth person that may be illegal to disclose due to a variety of privacy laws in the USA and states including the HIPPA law of several years ago as well as give information that could be used for identity theft or just embarrassing. For example, it could state the father is 'unknown' or the parents of the child were not married at the time of birth or even divorced. It can disclose the mothers maiden name, often used as a security information point for certain financial transactions. On older forms, the religion/faith of the parents, names of the attending doctor(s), even footprints taken at the hospital of the child may be included. This is a lot of information that is not needed for a usual needs for identity for a Passport, employment, a drivers license, entry into the military or holding political office.
 
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:52 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 10):
How original, the race card, let's just throw that trump card out there! Because everyone that wants Pres. Obama out, is racist, right? Everyone that wants to challange where he was born, no matter how stupid we all think this issue is, is only doing it because of race, right?

I've resorted to filing this and similar arguments under the heading "if you say it often enough, it will come true". Many, many liberals/democrats/left wingers including myself have repeatedly answered this question, and many, many conservatives have repeatedly and consistently ignored that answer. Of course it's not racist to be oppossed to President Obama, and no respectable person will tell you otherwise. However, it also depends very much upon why someone is oppossed to Obama. If you do not like him because you disagree with his policies or his politics, there's nothing racist about that. If you disagree with him because he's black or because his father is African, you're damn right that's racist.

There is a difference, and the vast majority of us recognize that, yet the right insists upon pretending that we believe all criticism of Obama to be racist in nature. That is simply and completely untrue.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 10):
Explain to me the difference in what "the Birthers" or whatever these idiots call themselves are doing any different from what all the Dems did and said, during the the Bush Administration?

I'm sorry, but I don't quite remember any Democrat demanding to see a copy of President Bush's birth certificate. Those calling for his impeachement did so based upon the fact that he declared war under false pretenses, why exactly are birthers so obsessed over President Obama's birth certificate?

Quoting Slider (Reply 16):
Sure there is. A long form birth certificate.

No, because the moment it's released, the birthers will come up with some new idiocy to claim that the long-form is still not enough. Let's face it, there is absolutely nothing that the President can do to convince those idiots.

Quoting D L X (Reply 22):
This is seriously the dumbest argument. This is the kind of argument that people repeat and repeat and repeat until hopefully someone thinks that because they've heard it so many times, it must be true.

  

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 23):
And stop the parade of frothing-at-the-mouth coming out of the woodwork? I'd get a kick out of this if I were in his position as well...

No kidding! I'd do the exact same thing if I were in his place.

Quoting Slider (Reply 24):
I am not a conspiracy kook, no, I'd just like to see it.

Why? If you're not a conspiracy kook, why do you want to see it? Why did you not demand to see George W Bush's birth certificate, or Bill Clinton's, or George Bush's, or Ronald Reagan's or any other president's birth certificate? Why are you so interested in President Obama's birth certificate?

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 25):
Why don't you ask Jimmy Carter, GWB I, Bill Clinton and GWB II to release theirs as well? Also, do you think it will really matter to the birthers what sort of documentation is released.

  

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 28):
it is up to you to prove it. So far the birthers have not done this.

  

Quoting mham001 (Reply 34):
but sorry, I am not posting a copy.)

Hmm, now why is that? Privacy reasons perhaps? Yet you're demanding to see the President's? I humbly suggest that all those demanding that a copy of the President's birth certificate be made public, make a copy of theirs public as well. After all, fair is fair right?

Quoting Slider (Reply 36):
I would like to take you seriously, but to do so would affront your intelligence. It's never been a question until now, save perhaps for Chester Arthur.

So in other words, you're dodging the question. Why has it not been a question up until now? Why did you just assume that Ronald Reagan was born in this country? Why did you just assume that Richard Nixon was born in this country? Bill Clinton? Bush I and II? Carter, Ford, Kennedy, Eisenhower, Truman, Roosevelt, Hoover? Why is the birther movement around now, and why have they just accepted that every previous President was born in this country?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 37):
I honestly hope President Obama doesn't release his birth certificate. Don't negotiate with [political] terrorists. If they aren't convinced yet, I don't think they'll ever be

   Completely in agreement with you here.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 40):

        

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):

That is exactly what will happen!
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:06 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 36):
I just think it's a fair question to ask and it should be answered.

It has been asked and it has been answered. Whether or not you accept or like the answer is another matter, entirely.
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:14 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 45):
Hmm, now why is that? Privacy reasons perhaps? Yet you're demanding to see the President's? I humbly suggest that all those demanding that a copy of the President's birth certificate be made public, make a copy of theirs public as well. After all, fair is fair right?

I think there is a difference between the two people. One is an average person and the other is the President of the United States. I think the President's life needs to be a little more public than the regular citizen.
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:25 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
If his name were Jim Smith and he were white, this would never have happened.

Exactly. John McCain was born in Panama, wasn't he? No one made an issue of that.

I wonder how many of these "birthers" are the same ones that were screaming that Obama is a terrorist and Muslim? Like terrorism and Islam have anything to do with any of this. That was the way to be racist without saying "I'm racist." We all clearly remember the people running around trying to discredit Obama because "his middle name is Hussein and his father is Muslim so Obama can not/should not be president." I still can not figure that argument out....
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RE: New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"

Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:55 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 28):

Let me explain how it works in the USA. If you make a claim about someone, in this case the birthers saying the President was not born in the US, it is up to you to prove it. So far the birthers have not done this.

No, that's not how it works in the USA. Let's start at square 1. Say I want to run for President. I would have to prove that I'm a natural-born citizen. The burden of proof is on the individual to show legal natural-born residency. Obama has not done so. He and his family have given more allusions and questionable actions to that he wasn't born here. The evidence for legality is little and questionable, all the while evidence against adds up. Now Gov. Abercrombie wants to give it a shot. My suggestion to the governor is to find and release the hundreds of documents of Barry's life that have not been released, unlike the precedent set by recent Presidents. We know just about everything about Bush or McCain or Kerry. About all we have about Obama's interesting life is one suspect document about his birth. If you have nothing to hide, Barack, why the secrecy? So, prove it, Obama and Abercrombie, prove it. It shouldn't be this difficult to tell the truth if it's on your side.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):
Mark my words: if this "long-form" certificate is released, then the Birthers will then state that . . .

If it eventually comes up this late to the party EVERY American should damn well better question it. It's their duty!

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