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falstaff
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:08 pm

All this "birther" talk on this forum got me thinking. What if Obama really wasn't born in the USA? What would happen? I don't want this thread to turn into why you think the birthers are stupid or why you think they are correct. I just want your opinion on what you think would happen. Also lets say he completes his term in office and is found out to be born elsewhere. What would happen?

What do I think would happen? I think that if he were still in office he would have to leave office and the VP would have to be sworn in as President. It would be interesting because this would never have happened before and there really isn't a mechanism in place to remove a president for not being a natural born citizen. If he was out of office I really don't know what would happen, but there would be an effort to get every law he signed overturned and every appointee thrown out. One thing I know for sure is that it would be a mess and I don't want to be around if it happens.
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:22 pm

Quoting falstaff (Thread starter):
If he was out of office I really don't know what would happen, but there would be an effort to get every law he signed overturned and every appointee thrown out.

Biden would likely sign each of those laws, making that irrelevant. As for appointees, that would be tough, since they'd have to be re-appointed and approved by the new senate. And you can be sure that some of them wouldn't make it through.

It would definitely be a mess - fortunately we don't have to worry about it, since his eligibility has been confirmed numerous times.

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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:27 pm

to this day there is still speculation among historians that Chester Arthur was born in Canada.
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:46 pm

Although he was born in the US it would be interesting. I would assume he would immediately be removed from office. I guess that would mean Vice President Biden would be president. As for his policies becoming void I think that would be a tough subject and left up to the courts.
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:51 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 3):
to this day there is still speculation among historians that Chester Arthur was born in Canada.


Really.... That is interesting.

[Edited 2010-12-31 05:54:27 by srbmod]
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:10 pm

Quoting jetBlueguy22 (Reply 4):
I would assume he would immediately be removed from office


That is what I figure, but I wonder how it would happen. Would there have to be an act of congress? Who would enforce the law?

I think this issue will show its head again in the future with another president. We have a lot of immigrants in the USA (always have) and question will come up again. This issue sort of came up with McCain too. There were some that said that because he was born in the Panama Canal Zone that disqualified him for President.

My parents neighbors have two children adopted from Kazakhstan. Those kids were born in Kazakhstan and when they were 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 they came to the USA. They were supposedly US citizens the moment they touched down in the USA (that is what the parents told me). One day in the future they may want to run for president. How easy would it be to prove they weren't born in this country? The paperwork on their birth in Kazakhstan may be non existent or impossible to locate in another 40 years or so. A lot of people could easily assume they are natural born Americans, they are white with blonde hair and blue eyes. A situation like that would even take the race card out the question too.
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:14 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 6):
That is what I figure, but I wonder how it would happen. Would there have to be an act of congress? Who would enforce the law?

I think it would be the Supreme Court. They would probably declare the presidency unconstitutional and he would be removed. I wouldn't think they would need impeachment proceedings. Though with how the government works you never know!
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:22 pm

Considering this is merely an academic discussion, I'll chime in.

Frankly, I believe the point would be moot. His mother was a United States citizen, and considering he did not renounce his citizenship at the age of 18 to claim citizenship of whatever other country he was supposedly born in, he is by all intents and purposes a natural-born US citizen.

The issue would be fast tracked to the Supreme Court, who would hopefully quickly (and unanimously) decide in his favor (thereby averting a constitutional crisis), and everything would go back to normal.

It would be a different story if he was born to two non-US citizens and then brought in country after his birth, but since his mother was a citizen and he was raised by citizens in country, it shouldn't make a difference at all.

Then, hopefully Congress would pass a law that said people born outside of the United States but who have been full fledged citizens of this country a certain percentage of their life (75 percent?) would be elligible to run for president.
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:34 pm

Quoting planespotting (Reply 9):
Then, hopefully Congress would pass a law that said people born outside of the United States but who have been full fledged citizens of this country a certain percentage of their life (75 percent?) would be elligible to run for president.


It would have to more than a law it would have be an amendment to the constitution.
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:11 pm

What if John McCain had been elected ? He certainly wasn't born in the USA.
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:14 pm

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 18):
What if John McCain had been elected ? He certainly wasn't born in the USA

Yes but he was born in a US territory to US parents. Obama was born to a US mother so it wouldn't matter anyway.
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[Edited 2010-12-31 06:00:14 by srbmod]
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:03 pm

Here is an interesting article fron the New York Times from a few years ago. It seems this issue has been on the table before and I am sure we will see it again in the future.
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:37 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):
All of our lives can change because of an event out of our control. My life changed because of the Union Carbide plant explosion in India.

So true - the entire course of my life changed due to an off-hand comment from a casual aquaintance that got me to change jobs many, many years ago. What ifs are definitely fun. All of the ones you list would make interesting topics.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 11):
It would have to more than a law it would have be an amendment to the constitution.

I think it's inevitable that the day will come when such an amendment passes. There are more and more immigrants becoming citizens, and sooner or later the population as a whole will come to the realization that some of them would be perfectly qualified to lead the nation.
 
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:31 pm

I looked into this idea with some research at the US Constitution Center in Philadelphia (pre-Obama for the record - in fact he was not even a Senator yet). I did the research because I was not born on US territory, but I was a US citizen by birth (both parents born in the US -naturally born citizens- and my father was working at a US Embassy in another country). According to what I could find, I would be eligible to be elected and serve because I was a naturally born US citizen; but, the constitutional scholars also said that this type of situation would likely end up in the courts since it was not in a US territory (natural born potentially interpreted by some as only on US controlled soil) and someone would likely object (even if just a political effort to keep someone off the ballot).

The day will come that someone born a US citizen by not in the 50 states or a US controlled territory runs for POTUS.
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:15 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 20):
Here is an interesting article fron the New York Times from a few years ago. It seems this issue has been on the table before and I am sure we will see it again in the future.




opps I forgot to attach the link....

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html

[Edited 2010-12-31 06:01:14 by srbmod]
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:32 pm

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 18):
What if John McCain had been elected ? He certainly wasn't born in the USA.

Actually, he was - although there was some question as to the status of persons born in the Canal Zone, this was cleared up by an act of Congress in 1937 (codified in 8 USC 1403) which applied retroactively, granting "statutory and declaratory born citizenship" to those born to at least one US citizen in the Canal Zone.

[Edited 2010-12-31 06:02:06 by srbmod]
 
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:46 am

This hypotherical question, which is in two parts, is very interesting from several perspectives.

First, if the sitting President were inarguably found to have been born in another sovereign county, he would probably be immeditely impeached on "high crimes and misdemeanors" grounds. Unfortunately, the founders did not specify what these infractions consisted of, but certainly something as egreious as falsifying, or submitting false affadavits of birth would qualify. Congress conducts impeachment hearings, and if found guilty, Congress has the power, right, authority and obligation to order the removal of the President. Any and all laws he signed would be null and void, at least until resigned by the replacement President. The further along in the term such an action takes place, the messier it would be, and certainly both houses of Congress and the entire Federal Judiciary would be involved. All of the foregoing assumes that this misconduct is discovered while the Pres is in office.

If the issue comes to light after completion of a term, the laws would again be nullified and voided, until and if re-signed by the new Pres., but the ex-Pres. probably could not stand for impeachment in Congress, as he is now a private citizen.

In either case cited above, the battle would be monumental and possibly rage on for years as the pro and con groups affected by the laws have their say. Inevitably, some of the laws would not survive.

There is yet another scenario I have not seen mentioned or considered on this thread of HYPOTHETICAL issues.

Hypothetically, the Pres. refuses to step down, and a constiutional crisis erupts, now what?

The Federal Government is the creation of the states, and the states, to this day, reserve the right to declare null and void any laws that Congress passes that the State deems unconstitutional. Using this power, the states, individually or collectively, would declare any laws signed by the usurper to be null and void and unenforceable in each state electing to take this route. Witness, for example, the actions in Virginia where a Federal Court found certain provisions of the healthcare bill to be unconstitutional. In all, there twenty other state with similar suits now before other Federal Courts in this healthcare issue.
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:36 am

An important point to keep in mind is that the constitution in no way requires that the president be born in the US or on US soil. It states the president must be a "natural born citizen." Some people interpret this phrase in different ways, but the widely held belief is that anyone who achieves their citizenship at birth is eligible to be president. In other words, if you are born in Indonesian, or Kenya, or on Mars, but at least one of your parents is a US citizen, you are a "natural born" US citizen. Once again, this is the generally accepted understanding of the constitution, but some people do contest this view, and to date it has not been tested.

The next requirement is of course the President must have lived at least 14 years in the US. No mention of these 14 years being the first 14 years of life, or the most recent 14 years for that matter. Any 14 years will do.

Edit: Boeing4ever- you beat me to it.

[Edited 2010-12-30 18:39:24]
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:18 am

Quoting planespotting (Reply 9):
Frankly, I believe the point would be moot. His mother was a United States citizen, and considering he did not renounce his citizenship at the age of 18 to claim citizenship of whatever other country he was supposedly born in, he is by all intents and purposes a natural-born US citizen.

The issue would be fast tracked to the Supreme Court, who would hopefully quickly (and unanimously) decide in his favor (thereby averting a constitutional crisis), and everything would go back to normal.

While this is the obvious - and almost certainly correct - answer, there's actually very little precedent on point, and I don't believe any of it is from the Supreme Court. There has been at least one recent case where the Court was asked to rule on the constitutionality of the paternity/maternity distinction in birthright citizenship and the statutes that govern it (Nguyen v. INS, 533 U.S. 53 (2001), if anyone cares). However, the Court has never, to my knowledge, actually picked up the Constitutional question of what is actually required to be a "natural born citizen."

[Edited 2010-12-31 06:05:34 by srbmod]
 
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:39 am

According to Congressional Research Service, The Library of Congress, Presidential Elections in the United States: A
Primer
http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30527.pdf

Quote:
Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution specifies that, to be President or Vice
President, a person must be a natural-born citizen of the United States, at least 35
years of age, and a resident of the United States for at least 14 years. Most
constitutional scholars interpret this language as including citizens born outside the
United States to parents who are U.S. citizens under the “natural born” requirement.

In other words, even if Obama were born out of the US he is eligible by having a parent who was born in the US, by being over 35 and by having lived in the US for 14 years. If he lied about the place of his birth, that might constitute a serious misdemeanor and that might render him liable to impeachment.

The validity of laws is an open question. The fact that the laws were accepted by Congress may mean that they may continue in force. The issue hasn't been tested and the Constitution offers no clear guidance. It may simple require the passing of an enabling Act confirming the validity of the laws rather than re-assenting to the individual laws by whoever were to replace the impeached President. Declaring all acts null and void would be impractical - the effects would touch everything from the bail-out following the GFC to continuing funding of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, let alone medicare and the block on funding relocation of inmates from Gitmo. The recent arms treaty with Russia would be thrown in doubt.

The uncertainty surrounding the validity of legislation could have a serious impact on trade, the value of the dollar and investment decisions previously made and pending. DADT could be back.
 
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RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:39 am

Quoting rangercarp (Reply 30):
The next requirement is of course the President must have lived at least 14 years in the US. No mention of these 14 years being the first 14 years of life, or the most recent 14 years for that matter. Any 14 years will do.

The President must also be 35 years old.

[Edited 2010-12-31 06:05:57 by srbmod]
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:08 pm

Please keep the discussion within the realms of being a hypothetical/"what if?" situation. Please keep the politics limited to what is actually relevant to this discussion.
 
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:55 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 2):
to this day there is still speculation among historians that Chester Arthur was born in Canada.

Some scolars question the eligability of those who were born in territories. Goldwater was born in Arizona Territory and a vice-presidential nominee (Clay, I think?) was born in Kansas Territory.

Since all the evidence points to the fact that Obama was, indeed, born in the State of Hawaii (not "territory"), this is a non-issue. However, I would think if a president were found to be in violation of any Constitutional rules, that president would have to step down and every bill that president signed into law would be challenged, at the very least.
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:40 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 19):
The validity of laws is an open question. The fact that the laws were accepted by Congress may mean that they may continue in force.

The obvious solution for the majority of statutes would be to just entertain the legal fiction that they hadn't been signed (the "pocket veto" ). In that case, the vast majority of laws (those for which the 10-day signing period expires with Congress in session) would stand. So would anything that passed by greater than 2/3, since that's veto-proof and thus the signing is essentially a formality. Those laws that Congress adjourned shortly after passing with less than 2/3 would need to be examined further. I suspect they would stand as well. There's nothing inherently unconstitutional about a law that hasn't been signed by the President, at least under current jurisprudence - as incredible as that sounds. There are plenty of ways things become law without either the consent of Congress or the President. The most prominent one - Executive Orders - would pose a serious review problem in this hypothetical.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 22):
Some scolars question the eligability of those who were born in territories. Goldwater was born in Arizona Territory and a vice-presidential nominee (Clay, I think?) was born in Kansas Territory.

This is really just a subset of the "natural born citizen" debate. Under the majority view, if your mother is a U.S. citizen, you would be a "natural born citizen" regardless of birthplace. Under the minority view, "natural born citizen" refers to the place of birth. Remember, the specific rules on birthright citizenship are statutory, and thus would be overridden by a judicial interpretation of the "natural born citizen" clause, to the extent of any conflict.

The "territory" question would be moot unless you were born there to a non-American mother (or to even an American father but didn't jump through the required hoops before age 18) or the "natural born citizen" clause was held to be solely based on birthplace. Considering the murky legal status of the various non-State U.S. "territories" - ranging from Guam and the NMI to USVI to Puerto Rico to DC - it's an interesting and open question. It's really one for a bunch of law professors sitting in their offices to debate without worrying about running up enormous bills for the clients. However, as U.S. courts are Constitutionally barred from issuing advisory opinions, I doubt it's one on which we'll get a judicial opinion anytime soon.

Also, people, please note that birthright citizenship is NOT automatic if only your father is a U.S. citizen. There are substantial differences in the law there, which have been upheld by the Supreme Court.
 
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:02 pm

Quoting falstaff (Thread starter):
What if Obama really wasn't born in the USA? What would happen?

Nothing

Quoting planespotting (Reply 7):
His mother was a United States citizen, and considering he did not renounce his citizenship at the age of 18 to claim citizenship of whatever other country he was supposedly born in, he is by all intents and purposes a natural-born US citizen.

This is the key - no one has challenged that Ann was his mother and that she was a US citizen at the time of his birth.

Quoting jetBlueguy22 (Reply 6):
I think it would be the Supreme Court. They would probably declare the presidency unconstitutional and he would be removed.

The US Supreme Court has already refused several times to hear challenges to Obama's citizenship status. They have made it very clear that his place of birth is not arguable after the US Congress in January 2009 ruled without any dissenting votes that he was eligible and was legally elected as President of the United States.

Quoting glydrflyr (Reply 16):
First, if the sitting President were inarguably found to have been born in another sovereign county, he would probably be immeditely impeached on "high crimes and misdemeanors" grounds.

The Congress has already certified him eligible to hold the office of President. Even if the House was able to gather enough votes to impeach him - there are not enough votes in the Senate to remove him from office.

We, the taxpayers, spent close to 50 million dollars on the impeachment and Senate trial of President William Jefferson Clinton - when our Congressmen and Senators knew before anything started that he would not be removed from office.

While a certain percentage of the people will never believe that President Obama is legally a US citizen, a much greater percentage will always believe he is, and was legally elected. Unless President Obama came on national TV and confessed he had lied and resigned - more than half of the US citizens would always believe him the victim of a racist right-wing coup attempt.

That is the only way he would leave office - if he resigned.
 
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:22 pm

Quoting jetBlueguy22 (Reply 3):
I would assume he would immediately be removed from office. I guess that would mean Vice President Biden would be president. As for his policies becoming void I think that would be a tough subject and left up to the courts.

Your answer

Quoting Quokka (Reply 19):
Declaring all acts null and void would be impractical - the effects would touch everything from the bail-out following the GFC to continuing funding of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, let alone medicare and the block on funding relocation of inmates from Gitmo. The recent arms treaty with Russia would be thrown in doubt.

It would be completely impractical for Congress to declare all the laws and appointments of the past two or three years were null and void. The easiest course would be an enabling act as mentioned above. Just a confirmation that everything done was legal and policies continue.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):
My parents neighbors have two children adopted from Kazakhstan. Those kids were born in Kazakhstan and when they were 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 they came to the USA. They were supposedly US citizens the moment they touched down in the USA (that is what the parents told me). One day in the future they may want to run for president. How easy would it be to prove they weren't born in this country?

Adopted foreign born children leave behind a substantial paperwork trail documenting their birth, their adoption and their entry into the US and their grant of citizenship. Their place of birth will always be listed in records as Kazakhstan. More likely they are going to have a bit of trouble when they reach age 16 obtaining a driver's license, at age 18 when they try to register to vote. If they enter the US military, they will be restricted from any career field requiring access to classified material until the military proves to themselves via their investigative agencies that they are legally US citizens.

My daughter was born at Clark Air Base in the Philippines. Unlike the Naval Hospital where John McCain was born - that base was actually US soil. Very few US military bases were US soil - I don't think any are today. She still has trouble even with her US State Dept issued birth certificate which clearly states she is a US citizen by birth. In her mid-30s now, she still gets questioned about her 'citizenship status' by local officials.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 18):
However, the Court has never, to my knowledge, actually picked up the Constitutional question of what is actually required to be a "natural born citizen."

The US Supreme Court for over 200 years has pointedly stayed out of the question of defining "natural born citizen". Prior decisions and refusals to take certain cases have made it clear - it is the US Congress which must define 'natural born citizen'' if necessary.

Since the US Congress has already certified President Obama as eligible for the office of President. The question is moot.
 
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:06 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 25):
The US Supreme Court for over 200 years has pointedly stayed out of the question of defining "natural born citizen". Prior decisions and refusals to take certain cases have made it clear - it is the US Congress which must define 'natural born citizen'' if necessary.

That's how the certiorari process always works. The Court generally refuses to decide questions unless they have to. The normal issue is that the Circuit-level precedent is split and SCOTUS settles the score. Rarely do they take a novel question of law until multiple circuits have ruled on it - except in cases of fairly extreme need. Here, there hasn't been such a need and I'm not aware of a circuit split. If you're so certain of your position, cite a few cases. That especially goes for the last point; deferring to Congress on a matter of interpreting the language of the Constitution would be, well, unprecedented.
 
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:11 am

Ok , the first 7 Presidents prior to Van Buren were not born American citizens but were born subjects of the British Crown. Before July 4 1776 they considered themselves Englishman, they were North American by birth but loyal to the crown before the revolution, George Washington served under British command in the French Indian War. So how did they reconcile this with the Constitution? All the orginal signers of the Decleration of Independence committed high treason to the their sovereign by that act.
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:49 am

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 27):
Quote:
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution

Since they were US citizens when the Constitution was ratified, they were legal.
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:44 am

If he were to be thrown out, so would Joe Biden.
Since President and Vice President are elected together and if Obama is indeed a fraud, Joe Biden would be thrown out along with him.
The next in line would be the Speaker of the House.
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:52 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
If he were to be thrown out, so would Joe Biden.
Since President and Vice President are elected together and if Obama is indeed a fraud, Joe Biden would be thrown out along with him.

Um.... no. So long as Biden met all the qualifications himself to be VP (and President), there's no legal justification for booting him out too.
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Superfly
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:10 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 30):
Um.... no. So long as Biden met all the qualifications himself to be VP (and President), there's no legal justification for booting him out too.

Source?
Undoing a Presidency is more than removing the man in the Oval Office.
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:22 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 31):

Source?

The Constitution, specifically the 25th Amendment.

Care to cite a court case that says otherwise? After all, you made the original claim.
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:33 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 32):
The Constitution, specifically the 25th Amendment.

Please show the clause in the event of a fraudulent Presidency.
No need to turn this in to a flame thread.
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:27 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
Please show the clause in the event of a fraudulent Presidency.



It is important to remember that the election of the Vice-President is a separate ballot / election than the election of the President. Nothing requires the state electors to cast their separate ballots for VP for the person who is on the party ticket with the person for whom they cast their separate ballot for President.

Quoting Twelfth Amendment:

The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President,



If Barack Obama was not qualified to be President when the Congress proclaimed him the winner of the election - no one is questioning the qualification of Joseph Biden to be Vice-President. Therefore because Biden is the winner of the separate election for VP - the 25th amendment Section 1 applies.

Quoting Twenty-Fifth Amendment:

In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President.
 
Superfly
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:44 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 34):
It is important to remember that the election of the Vice-President is a separate ballot / election than the election of the President.

Sure about that?
I've been voting since 1992 and I've never had the option of voting for a Vice President different than the party nominee's pick.
The VP nominee is a decision made by the party's nominee.
If we're talking about a fraudulent Presidency and undoing that President's decisions, then his/her VP pick would also be compromised.
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Moose135
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:10 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 35):
The VP nominee is a decision made by the party's nominee.

Yes, the nominee selects a running mate, but the party's nominating convention elects the VP nominee. Has that ever not been the person selected by the presidential nominee? Probably not, but that person is selected separately by the convention.

And per the 12 Amendment, the Electoral College votes for the VP separately from the President:

Quote:
they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President


[Edited 2011-01-02 15:12:56]
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rfields5421
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:40 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 35):
I've been voting since 1992 and I've never had the option of voting for a Vice President different than the party nominee's pick.
The VP nominee is a decision made by the party's nominee.
If we're talking about a fraudulent Presidency and undoing that President's decisions, then his/her VP pick would also be compromised.



You are talking about your individual vote/ your ballot. Your ballot has not value/ importance in the election of a President under the Constitution, amendments or federal law.

Your state legislature has the exclusive power under Article II Section I of the Constitution to decide how Electors will be chosen who cast the real ballots for President and Vice President.

In most states, the Electors are chosen by the political party and certified by the Secretary of State for that state based upon the popular vote by state law.

But as far as the law and the Constitution and Amendments are concerned the President and the Vice-President are selected in separate elections. One might be found invalid (though there is no mention of that in any law I can find) - but that would not make the other election invalid.

Another point - the US House of Representatives counts the ballots for President and certifies the vote results.

The US Senate counts the ballots for Vice-President and certifies the vote results.

They literally are separate elections.

Now something else - there is no concept of a Fraudulent Presidency in the Constitution and Amendments. I doubt it exists in the laws of the United States.

The 25th Amendment would probably apply if it were determined that the person elected by the electors, and certified as President by the US Congress were found to be ineligible. If he/she would not resign - Section 4 of the 25th Amendment could be used to remove that person from office.

Much quicker and easier than an impeachment which would take several months minimum.

A lot of the debate and discussion behind the 25th Amendment concerned how a person could be removed from the Office of President if he/she were unfit and refused to resign. I'm certain the courts would uphold Section 4 as the proper way to deal with such a situation as what you are calling a Fraudlent Presidency.

There is no way the Congress or the US Supreme Court would ever reverse the 2008 Presidential Election. The election is over. The results have been certified. It will not be 'recounted' even if the winner were found to be ineligible to be President.

The process would move forward from where we are today, not try to pretend the last two years did not happen.
 
rfields5421
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:49 pm

Something else to remember about the 12th Amendment.

It setup the Vice-Presidency as a member of the President's administration. The Constitution originally called for the electors to cast only one ballot, the person with the most electoral votes was President and the person with the second most votes was VP.

Othewise President George H.W Bush would have been President William Jefferson Clinton's VP for 93-97. Al Gore would have been the VP during the administration of President George W. Bush, etc.

Adding a new election for VP allowed the US to do away with the system of having the election loser as VP. That has worked well for 207 years.
 
MEA-707
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:30 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 35):
If we're talking about a fraudulent Presidency and undoing that President's decisions, then his/her VP pick would also be compromised

Also if you were right, they would have booted out Ford as well when Nixon left in august 1974 and put in the leader of the house or McGovern.
I think it makes sense that the VP also supports the same ticket and political direction, otherwise you would see even more then now that the political party which did not deliver the sitting president would do litterally everything to get him impeached or even killed. But now they know they have to wait for the election whatever happens.
So for instance Democrats would be more motivated to get Bush impeached between 2001-2008 if the alternative wouldn't be Cheney but someone they like.
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IADCA
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:42 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 35):
Sure about that?
I've been voting since 1992 and I've never had the option of voting for a Vice President different than the party nominee's pick.

Sure you have. You can write in whomever you like. It would be awkward in terms of electors, but you can always do it. You can also vote for the electors for a slate and then try to convince them to vote otherwise - as in, for another VP. It actually has happened that a candidate annoyed an elector before the election, with the result that the elector didn't follow his/her pledge. Nothing binds them.
 
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:33 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 39):
Also if you were right, they would have booted out Ford as well when Nixon left in august 1974 and put in the leader of the house or McGovern.

Not true because Gerald Ford was not on the ballot in 1972. It was Spiro Agnew. He quit a year after getting re-elected.
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zippyjet
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:51 am

And on a sarcastic humorous note: What if Elvis is really still alive?
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slz396
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:02 am

In my view the US Constitution should be mondernised on the 'natural born' issue!

While I can fully understand the point of wanting to limit the US Presidency to just genuine Americans back when the US Constitution was first written, such kind of weasel wording certainly isn't at its place in a modern world any longer as it isn't made perfectly clear just what 'a natural born citizen' really is, nor does the text manages to exclude what was most likely (also) ment by it -people still loyal to a foreign crown/nation- as then non-exitisting dual citizenship is not excluded by it.

As has been pointed out several times already, the US has had several Presidents which were legally still a subject to the British Crown, even deep into the 19th century, yet I think the writers of the US Constitution would have objected far more to seeing a natural born US citizen act as US President while also being a legal subject to the British Crown still, than to see somebody born to US citizens abroad take the office, even though in the first case, the Constitution is clear on him being eligible, whereas in the second case interpretation already needs to intervene to help out...

I'd say that alone is proof this part of the US Constitution is particularly poorly written and ill-considered by the authors, so it's time to improve it and make sure it will always be interpreted the way a large majority of people want it to be.

Just my 2 cents.
 
planespotting
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:42 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 34):
It is important to remember that the election of the Vice-President is a separate ballot / election than the election of the President. Nothing requires the state electors to cast their separate ballots for VP for the person who is on the party ticket with the person for whom they cast their separate ballot for President.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 35):
I've been voting since 1992 and I've never had the option of voting for a Vice President different than the party nominee's pick.

That's because, Superfly, neither you, nor I, or anyone else on a-net unless they were a designated member of the electoral college, have never voted directly for president. You've voted for which set of electors will vote for which president. When they vote, there are separatre ballots for president and vice president.

Back in the 19th century, presidents and vice presidents were voted separately in popular elections as well, and typically, the runner up of the election claimed the VPresidency.
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Superfly
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:07 pm

Already been stated in this thread planespotting. How many times does it need to be repeated?
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AGM100
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:13 pm

OK we finally figured it out .

Senator Obama was born in Kenya ... President Obama was in fact born in Hawaii its settled ! ...
Senator Obama the one who voted against raising the debt ceiling in 2006.... .   
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planespotting
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:12 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 45):
Already been stated in this thread planespotting. How many times does it need to be repeated?

As many times as it takes!!

In all fairness, I apologize for beating a dead horse.
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Bongodog1964
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:43 pm

As a non US citizen I feel I have to ask the question

"Does it really matter" ?

None of us choose our place of birth, we all do however as adults get a chance to choose our place of residency to a greater or lesser extent. Surely thats what matters.
 
Superfly
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RE: RE: What If Obama Really Wasn't Born In The USA?

Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:22 am

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 48):
As a non US citizen I feel I have to ask the question

"Does it really matter" ?




Yep!
It's written in the Constitution. If Obama is lying about it, then he is in big trouble!

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 48):
None of us choose our place of birth,


Which bars us from many top government post in many countries throughout the world.
Since I was born in the United States, I'll never be the president of China.
However, I can live in China if I choose.
Doesn't bother me one bit.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 48):
Surely thats what matters.


Honesty matters as well and like I said, if he is lying about, then he is in some big trouble.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 47):


I'm well aware of the laws of succession of the Presidency. My point as well as the OP was that it all may be moot if a Presidency is undone. If a fraudulent President's decisions are all undone, that could also effect his VP decision as well. Most likely, the laws of succession would take place and Biden would become president just to avoid this confusion.
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