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Aaron747
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Mark McGwire Loses MLB HOF Votes Again

Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:13 pm

There is justice in the world...this year McGwire lost votes for HOF eligibility in light of his revelations this time last year. Hopefully next year he'll fall below the threshold for any future consideration.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big...-in-first-post-conf?urn=mlb-303903

After this year, McGwire has 11 more years of eligibility left. But it seems pretty clear that last January's confession is going to keep him in ballot limbo with contemporaries like Rafael Palmeiro and Juan Gonzalez until he's no longer up for election.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
EMBQA
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RE: Mark McGwire Loses MLB HOF Votes Again

Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:28 pm

So here is a question... Back in 1962 they made a big deal about Roger Maris breaking Babe Ruth's home run record so much so they added an astric next to his name for many years denoting the different number of games played to reach that record. Now...... the only people to have passed Maris, McGuire, Sosa and Bonds are all under investigation for doping to bulk up. Do you think they should be called out in the record books..?
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
D L X
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RE: Mark McGwire Loses MLB HOF Votes Again

Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:17 am

Mark Magwire is being left out because he is unpopular, not because he wasn't one of the greatest to play. He, Bonds, and others that arose during the Selig Era will get in eventually, just like players that took Greenies got in.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Mark McGwire Loses MLB HOF Votes Again

Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:35 am

I have no sympathy for any of the "enhanced" players who do not get in. I hope they do not. Maris as far as I know did it the honest way, no enhancements. I had no problem with the Asterisk, it did take him more games to break the record., nothing hard to understand there.
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Mudboy
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RE: Mark McGwire Loses MLB HOF Votes Again

Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:26 am

As I die hard Baseball fan, I honestly could care less if they used PEDs or not? Many of these players were outed by a confidential survey, to gauge how many players have used PEDs, and later these named were leaked. What about the players that used PEDs, but just have not been caught? From a fan's point of view, I would much rather see a bunch of guys hitting 50 home runs, than a bunch of low scoring games. From a players point of view, if every one in the leage is doing PEDs, you almost have to, in order to keep up. Think about the millions a player that hits 40 HRs a year gets vs a player that hits 20.
One thing people don't understand, is what a lot of these players were using was HGH, and not Anabolics. HGH speeds up recovery time, and in a sport that has 162 games, many players go through the nagging injuries that hamper their play on the field, and HGH reduces recovery time.
Anabolics swell you up with water, and can slow your bat speed down, which is bad in baseball. There are however, quite a few players that showed massive muscle gains, that did have positive results on the field: Sosa, Bic Mac, Bonds, Ken Caminetti, Canseco, Brady Anderson went from 20 HRs in a season to 50 and looked like a body builder.
I have some mixed feelings on these guys being allowed in the HOF, but it is hard to deny what they have done for the game. Some people seem to forget that Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire resurrected MLB with their home run race in 98, after 2 strikes destroyed attendance. It sparked intrest back in the game, that people did not care about anymore, and that is a fact, that cannot be denied.
 
mirrodie
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RE: Mark McGwire Loses MLB HOF Votes Again

Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:50 am

It's fitting. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy!
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Aaron747
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RE: Mark McGwire Loses MLB HOF Votes Again

Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:34 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 4):
From a fan's point of view, I would much rather see a bunch of guys hitting 50 home runs, than a bunch of low scoring games.

I like being forced to stand up when a homer goes out as much as the next guy, but a bunch of guys bombing it out game in, game out is boring. Give me good defense and a pitchers' duel any day of the week please - with a walk-off shot to finish it  
Quoting Mudboy (Reply 4):
I have some mixed feelings on these guys being allowed in the HOF

Doesn't that say it all though?

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 4):
Some people seem to forget that Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire resurrected MLB with their home run race in 98, after 2 strikes destroyed attendance.

I beg to differ on that - they helped to revive interest in the game but if anything has resurrected attendance, it's the fact that just about every franchise has built a ballpark 5x better than what existed before. The only thing that sets baseball apart from other professional sports IMO is the ballpark experience. Look at the attendance numbers for virtually any club that has opened a new park and the evidence is there. The only outlier is the Los Angeles Dodgers, who are somehow drawing 3.5 million+ a season despite mediocre performances - but they've made minor improvements to their jewel of the 1960s and that seems to have been enough.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Do you think they should be called out in the record books..?

I don't know how you legally take their numbers *away* from them, but they didn't earn them straight up. There's a remedy there somewhere, but nobody has figured it out yet.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
BMI727
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RE: Mark McGwire Loses MLB HOF Votes Again

Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:48 am

I don't think that any of the steroid users should be allowed in the hall, but the truth is that for every player that got caught or admitted using PEDs, there are more who didn't and will slip through. That combined with the politics of the process, idiot voters (who seriously thinks that Larry Walker is a hall of famer?) and the fact that the players want to be in the Hall of Fame so they can get paid more for autographs makes the Hall mean next to nothing to me.
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Mir
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RE: Mark McGwire Loses MLB HOF Votes Again

Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:44 am

On a related note, it's good to finally see Bert Blyleven make it in.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Mudboy
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RE: Mark McGwire Loses MLB HOF Votes Again

Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:50 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
Doesn't that say it all though?

I am mixed because you cannot deny the numbers they put up, and they were not all due to PEDs. Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, and even Palmero had unquestionable talent. PEDs might help you hit HR, but not 3000 hits. But when you look at what Aaron went through to break Ruth's record, to be passed by Bond's, seems an injustice. Bond's being a Major prick, does not help either.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Larry Walker is a hall of famer?

Come on, Walker was a 5 tool player, yes he played in Coor's most of his career, but that should not be held against him, he did a pretty good job for STL, as well as the Expos, IIRC?
 
BMI727
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RE: Mark McGwire Loses MLB HOF Votes Again

Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:59 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 9):
Come on, Walker was a 5 tool player, yes he played in Coor's most of his career, but that should not be held against him, he did a pretty good job for STL, as well as the Expos, IIRC?

The fact that we are even having this conversation is part of why I'm just kind of done with the whole thing. The inflation has been pretty amazing, to the point where it has seemingly become the Hall of the Very Good. If it were me, I'd clean the thing out and put a cap on the number of spots. To vote somebody in, somebody gets bumped out.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Mir
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RE: Mark McGwire Loses MLB HOF Votes Again

Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:30 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 9):
Come on, Walker was a 5 tool player, yes he played in Coor's most of his career, but that should not be held against him, he did a pretty good job for STL, as well as the Expos, IIRC?

A couple of great seasons among a good career does not a Hall of Famer make. You've got to be extremely good over a long period of time, or have a significant number of memorable moments (for example, while Curt Schilling and Andy Pettitte don't have outstanding regular season numbers, I believe their postseason accomplishments qualify them for the HOF). Larry Walker has neither of those, and he shouldn't even be in the conversation.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Mudboy
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RE: Mark McGwire Loses MLB HOF Votes Again

Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:01 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
A couple of great
Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
A couple of great

Ok, I must admit, I have no idea what Larry Walker's career numbers are, I just know he hit well over 300 for several yrs, and had quite a few yrs of 30-40 hrs, I am assuming without checking that he is somewhere near the 2500-3000 hit range, but that is only an uneducated guess, but I am sure he has much better numbers that Larkin?
 
Mudboy
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RE: Mark McGwire Loses MLB HOF Votes Again

Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:16 am

Ok, I was wrong.
Larry Walker Career Numbers:
17 yrs
Hits- 2160 HR-383 RBI-1311 5x All Star 7 Gold Gloves 1 WS loss 97 NL MVP

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/walkela01.shtml

Barry Larkin:
19 yrs
Hits- 2340 HR-198 RBI- 960 12x All Star 3 Gold Gloves 1 WS Ring 95 NL MVP
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Mark McGwire Loses MLB HOF Votes Again

Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:29 pm

Not to get too picky, but winning 7 gold gloves in RF is not exactly a stupendous feat. I'm more impressed by Larkin's 3 at SS.
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