flyorski
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Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:59 am

With the recent shooting of a congresswomen in Arizona, I have to wonder if gun control would be possible in the U.S.

My personal opinion is that although it has been implemented with mixed success in Germany, it would be much more difficult to implement in the United States. In the United States guns are so widespread, that for the Government to try to restrict them would have serious back-lash for what ever political party might try. I doubt it would be possible even if a majority of citizens would argue for it.

This is a funny video in my opinion, explains in part why gun control might never work in the U.S.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCXtfR0_roE

Lets try to keep this civil, explain ideas about gun control, but please refrain from personal attacks.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:09 am

Quoting flyorski (Thread starter):
With the recent shooting of a congresswomen in Arizona, I have to wonder if gun control would be possible in the U.S.

There is already gun control policies in place. Each state have their own policies, however, some constituents still claim that it's way too easy to get a gun.

I think there should be policies in place for people who have suspected mental health issues. People like the Virginia Tech shooter, and this guy that did the shooting in Arizona. These guys both were suspected to have mental health issues, and they were still able to walk into a store and buy a firearm. There needs to be a protocol in place for people with mental health issues so that can't LEGALLY get their hands on a gun.

We as a society need to control these people. There are tell tale signs, such as an essay written in an English class, or a youtube video, or a blog. Furthermore, everyone going for a gun permit should pass mental health test before they are even able to get close to a firearm.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:10 am

We have one - it's called the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. Besides, this weekend's senseless attack was a crazy nutjob control issue, not a gun control one.

In fact, had anyone in the immediate vicinity been carrying a firearm as well, it's likely this lunatic wouldn't have racked up as many victims as he did.

[Edited 2011-01-09 18:12:23]
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Kent350787
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:10 am

I don't know that gun control in the US would achieve enough to be worthwhile for anyone. High levels of gun ownership don't necessarily translate to high levels of gun violence in other countries - there seems to be something more basic in the US psyche that gun control can't address.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:18 am

The problem is the NRA will say that more guns mean better coverage, and the people for gun control want stricter laws. Bottom line is if guns are the problem, more guns can not be the solution. It is a no win situation to say the least. And of course the gun zealots will chant that "you can take the guns from my cold dead hands" I should point out that I am anti gun and mainly as gun violence has personally effected me and my family so I find it hard to remain neutral on the subject. Would I like to see stricter gun laws, yes, will I in my lifetime, NO.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:21 am

Quoting flyorski (Thread starter):
My personal opinion is that although it has been implemented with mixed success in Germany, it would be much more difficult to implement in the United States. In the United States guns are so widespread, that for the Government to try to restrict them would have serious back-lash for what ever political party might try. I doubt it would be possible even if a majority of citizens would argue for it.

Even if you managed to pass a constitutional amendment overturning the second amendment, it would be impossible to collect all the guns. Most law-abiding citizens might, but none of the crooks would leaving the gangbangers with guns and everyone else defenseless. Home invasions and armed robberies would go through the roof - remember the US population is spread out - there are millions who live where it might take 15 minutes or more for a cop to get to. Because of that very fear, millions of otherwise law-abiding citizens would probably keep and hide their guns. I know I would. My family's safety trumps anything the government says.
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flyorski
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:21 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 3):
In fact, had anyone in the immediate vicinity been carrying a firearm as well, it's likely this lunatic wouldn't have racked up as many victims as he did.

That seems to be the central argument of the Penn and Teller youtube link I cited.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 3):
Besides, this weekend's senseless attack was a crazy nutjob control issue, not a gun control one.

Do you feel the U.S. should implement a nationwide test to check mental health before allowing a fire-arm to be purchased? Should that matter be left to the states, or not at all? Should they check every-citizen to find out if they are mentally competent? How does one control nut-jobs?
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
Mir
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:35 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 2):
We as a society need to control these people. There are tell tale signs, such as an essay written in an English class, or a youtube video, or a blog. Furthermore, everyone going for a gun permit should pass mental health test before they are even able to get close to a firearm.

You lost me here. Yes, mentally ill people shouldn't be able to buy a gun, but you can't go taking away someone's 2nd Amendment rights just because of some paper they wrote in school, unless they explicitly say they intend to cause harm. If someone has an already-diagnosed mental ailment, then that should be a disqualifier when it comes up in the background check, but I'm not comfortable with more restrictions than that.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 3):
In fact, had anyone in the immediate vicinity been carrying a firearm as well, it's likely this lunatic wouldn't have racked up as many victims as he did.

It's just as likely that more innocent bystanders would have gotten hurt from stray bullets fired while trying to hit the shooter, so that argument doesn't really work, no matter how many times it gets thrown out.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
hka098
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:36 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 2):
There is already gun control policies in place. Each state have their own policies, however, some constituents still claim that it's way too easy to get a gun.

Kind of what I was thinking. Stricter legislation won't keep guns out of the hands of bad people. If they really really want a gun, they'll find a way to get one.

Quoting flyorski (Reply 7):
How does one control nut-jobs?

I don't think you can control them all.
 
474218
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:42 am

Quoting flyorski (Reply 7):
How does one control nut-jobs?


Retroactive abortion!
 
Superfly
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:01 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 3):
We have one - it's called the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. Besides, this weekend's senseless attack was a crazy nutjob control issue, not a gun control one.


  
Amen to that!
That nut-job already broke the law by shooting people and killing them. So I doubt he'd be concerned about violating a gun-control law.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
it might take 15 minutes or more for a cop to get to.


15 minutes?
More like 1 hour in some places.
In the rough parts of Chicago (a city with very strict gun control), the police are notoriously slow in responding to crime.
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ArmitageShanks
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:02 am

I don't own any guns and I grew up in a house that had none but I'm completely against limiting law-abiding citizens the right to own as many of any type of gun they wish. I'd take cars from young people before I'd take a gun from one. That would save a lot of lives.

Quoting flyorski (Reply 7):
Do you feel the U.S. should implement a nationwide test to check mental health before allowing a fire-arm to be purchased? Should that matter be left to the states, or not at all? Should they check every-citizen to find out if they are mentally competent? How does one control nut-jobs?

What is mentally ill? Should people with OCD or Anorexia not be allowed to own guns because they are mentally ill? What about people who suffer from poor coping skills? All those illnesses are considered mental illness in the DSM.

[Edited 2011-01-09 19:03:34]
 
ltbewr
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:16 am

I would note that in comparison to the 1990's, criminal use of guns to commit murders, especially in NY City, have been at lows not seen since the 1960's. Still the numbers of those killed by illegal gun use in the USA is way too disproportion to most other industrialized countries. There are already a number of regulations on the US Federal level as to 'gun control'. Still, more could be done on the Federal level yet stay consistent with the 2nd Amendment and 'states rights' as to gun regulation. Some examples:

- Substantially reduce the number of Federal licenses so the remaining numbers can be regulated better.
- All sales must take place on the licensed site (no 'gun show' sales or out of the back of a SUV).
- All sales must be done in the legal state of residence of the buyer.
- A higher Federal tax on dealers licenses, guns and ammo as well as higher fines for gun related violations to pay for more regulation and enforcement.
- End getting a handgun in Florida being much easier than in NY City (where it very strictly regulated). Legit residents in states with less regulation on the purchase of handguns will be straw buyers and resell them to 'friends' in highly regulated states for a nice profit. College kids in the easy states have been often involved in that trade.
- Require the purchase of liability insurance or a rider on their property insurance of any gun use outside of one's primary residence.
- Stiff penalties who allow their weapons or sell them privately to those that use them in crimes.

Still, more laws will not make it possible to stop all illegal and terrible use of them in the context of our culture of the last 200+ years in the USA. Beyond some increased regulation and enforcement of existing laws, we need our media to stop glorifying weapons use, perhaps show the real damage they cause, educate all, especially kids, as to the responsibility of guns.
 
Zentraedi
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:22 am

How about socialized mental health care?

What about making those around the nut(employers, family, etc), partially responsible for not getting the person help?

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 12):
I'd take cars from young people before I'd take a gun from one. That would save a lot of lives.

   I really wish the US would take a harder line on this. If you drive drunk, be prepared to move somewhere with public transportation.
 
Superfly
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:27 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 14):
How about socialized mental health care?


We used to have nuthouses in the US but most were shut down because they were considered 'inhumane'.
So today we let nutjobs walk the street.   
Many of them are homeless.
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ArmitageShanks
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:03 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 13):
What about making those around the nut(employers, family, etc), partially responsible for not getting the person help?

That's another very tricky subject. If family, friends, and coworkers have the ability to lock you up based on your "mental illness" that's a very scary thing. People would report every strange person they met due to fear of prosecution. Who are they to judge if you are a threat to yourself or others? This has been the battle of mental health professionals for years and years and a huge interest to me personally. Its a balance of safety and liberty...but where do we draw the line?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
We used to have nuthouses in the US but most were shut down because they were considered 'inhumane'.

And they were and its a great thing they are gone. The system is not perfect but at least people are not kept as prisoners, being abused and forced to take drugs for the rest of their life.
 
Superfly
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:06 am

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 15):
And they were and its a great thing they are gone. The system is not perfect but at least people are not kept as prisoners, being abused and forced to take drugs for the rest of their life.


So having them sleep on park benches, defecating on buses, panhandling and occasionally stabbing and shoot random people is better?   
Perhaps if you lived in a city with lots of homeless people, you'd feel a lot different.
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ArmitageShanks
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:15 am

I feel we are getting off topic with this but I'll respond in short.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
So having them sleep on park benches, defecating on buses, panhandling and occasionally stabbing and shoot random people is better?
Perhaps if you lived in a city with lots of homeless people, you'd feel a lot different.

I have lived in cities like that. I deal with homeless people and the mentally ill daily in my line of work. Just because someone is homeless doesn't indicate they are mentally ill. Many are addicts in addition to having mental illness. And in the end, so what? Should someone be deprived of their liberty and freedom just because you don't like them asking for change and sleeping in a public place? Should we strap them down and force feed them medication that will kill them in the long run, which we did and continue to do?

I don't know if you know anything about the intimate details of the mental health industry in the USA from the 1950's to today but it was not a good thing what we did then, and even now.
 
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:23 am

The Second Amendment means you have a right to have a gun but with that comes responsibility. I think reasonable means must be taken within all the fiery discussions of the Second Amendment purists. I do think background checks are necessary for all purchasers and no one needs an AR-15 or AK-47 to defend their house. A million laws are not going to prevent all gun crimes but arming everyone is not going to make the streets and neighborhoods safe.

[Edited 2011-01-09 20:26:05]
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:24 am

Should the US have a gun control policy? Yes. The policy should be "you must use both hands".

Okay, now that is out of the way so time for a little more serious input. I think the limit of "gun control" should be what type of weapons one is allowed to own. I don't think every person needs an automatic rifle, but I have no problem with people owning hunting rifles or shotguns and handguns for home defense. I'm sure even some in the "pro-gun" crowd will disagree with me, but that's what I believe.
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Superfly
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:31 am

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 17):
I feel we are getting off topic with this but I'll respond in short.


Actually it's very much on topic. Mental health is an important part of gun control laws.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 17):
Just because someone is homeless doesn't indicate they are mentally ill.


I do understand that some people have unfortunate circumstances and may end up on the streets.
Having lived in San Francisco for 15 years and seeing the aggressive and crude behavior of many homeless, most are mentally ill. Many are not the innocent panhandling variant.
Last year there was a homeless man that was going around stabbing people on the city buses.
I've seen a homeless man vomit on a lady on her way to a job interview.
I avoided taking the night owl buses because many homeless urinate and defecate on the city bus.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 17):
I deal with homeless people and the mentally ill daily in my line of work.


Dealing with the mentally ill in a clinic professional setting is much different than dealing with them on the streets.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 17):
I don't know if you know anything about the intimate details of the mental health industry in the USA from the 1950's to today but it was not a good thing what we did then, and even now.


Oh I'm sure it was horrible. In fact during that time, left-hand people were chastised in school and were forced to learn to write with their right-hand. So I can only imagine how bad it was for the mentally ill.
I don't want to seem like I'm beating up on the homeless and mentally ill but having them roam around in the gutter isn't good either.
Bring back the Concorde
 
soon7x7
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:32 am

Yes to gun control policy...everyone should be issued a gun in America...the insane ones already get theirs while out on parole! (protected by their lawyers)...the law abiding citizens are the ones that have difficulty and should (according to OUR Constitution) have the right to bear arms to protect themselves, family and property and that includes protecting themselves from an over zealous government. Perhaps the US should initiate lawyer/judge/politician control instead.

I might add that many law abiding, hard working citizens have been pushed far over the edge by the loss of jobs/home/marriages as a result of a grossly mismanaged bloated government. The result is desperate actions by desperate individuals. While of course the actions are not condoned...understandably they are a symptom of a country grossly divided by a confused and greedy government that wishes to transform the very fabric that makes the US different from other nations. So many are fighting back...some in a good way, others not so good.

One example...most level headed Americans will admit that "political correctness" is killing this country. While lawyers and courts have seen to mandate the issue...it also wreaks havoc with the travelling public...ergo TSA crap...

Angela Merkal said it herself..."Diversity is not working here"...Well its not working in the US either. Not the way it is currently presented. Like being rammed down our throats. Enforceable rules of immigration exist and in the past have worked but as PC has become the mandate...it brings the worst out of some here. What your seeing is kick back from all sides. Take peoples guns away?...Americans will not stand for it especially while we are constantly threatened with terrorist actions. If the public confided in its government and its abilities to protect its people, the topic might be open for discussion but at this point in time while it is open season on Americans...staying locked and loaded is a good, sound and reasonable insurance policy.
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:47 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 20):

Oh I'm sure it was horrible. In fact during that time, left-hand people were chastised in school and were forced to learn to write with their right-hand. So I can only imagine how bad it was for the mentally ill.
I don't want to seem like I'm beating up on the homeless and mentally ill but having them roam around in the gutter isn't good either.

You aren't beating up on them at all... you're just using your experience as a guide and that's OK. What we have to ask ourselves is how do we deal with it? In the past we just locked them up against their will for life and today we've, it seems, moved in the opposite direction (somewhat). The sad thing is most people outside the system just don't care enough to do anything about it.

If you're interested I can give you a lot of literature on the debate of competency and some really good books to read.

[Edited 2011-01-09 20:50:07]
 
Mir
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:58 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 21):
I might add that many law abiding, hard working citizens have been pushed far over the edge by the loss of jobs/home/marriages as a result of a grossly mismanaged bloated government. The result is desperate actions by desperate individuals.

Whom you want to arm with guns....   

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Superfly
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:59 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 21):
I might add that many law abiding, hard working citizens have been pushed far over the edge by the loss of jobs/home/marriages as a result of a grossly mismanaged bloated government. The result is desperate actions by desperate individuals. While of course the actions are not condoned...understandably they are a symptom of a country grossly divided by a confused and greedy government that wishes to transform the very fabric that makes the US different from other nations. So many are fighting back...some in a good way, others not so good.

Right-wing extremist AM radio blowhards feed the fire and stir up the pot with their hatred and sometimes violent messages.
I wonder if Sarah Palin will be shouting "reload" after this weekend's horrible shootings in Arizona.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 22):
In the past we just locked them up against their will for life and today we've, it seems, moved in the opposite direction (somewhat).

You are correct about that.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 22):
If you're interested I can give you a lot of literature on the debate of competency and some really good books to read.

Send me an IM, I'd be interested in reading up on this topic.
Bring back the Concorde
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:02 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 24):

Send me an IM, I'd be interested in reading up on this topic.

I'll do it.
 
flymia
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:02 am

The problem with gun control is criminals will ALWAYS find a way to get a gun. If someone wants to kill a high ranking official they will figure out a way to do it. Law abiding people have the right and should have the right to protect themselves.
However I also see no need for a person to have an AK-47. Handguns and hunting rifles are good enough. Also buying a gun should be a federal matter not a state. States should be able to have their own concealed weapon laws. But besides for that everyone should be allowed to have a gun in their own home. And if the federal government was incharged with the purchasing of guns hopefully that would make background checks etc.. better and stop the guns in the trunk of the car sales.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
LAXintl
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:13 am

We have gun control policy in America, and matter of fact quite often repressive part of quilt work of Federal, State, and local laws that govern gun ownership.

Frankly I'd rather automatically issue every man and women in the nation a weapon before walking down the path of trying to take weapons away from law abiding citizens.

As stated there already are various laws that bar weapons ownership by convicted felons, and those that fall into other various categories such as domestic abuse instigators. Criminal history checks for purchasers, licences or registrations, safety training, restrictions on the types of weapons and geographic limits where they might be carried (not around schools) are all examples of some of what is on the books already.

Anyhow, taking action in America against gun ownership would ultimately only harms the innocent law abiding citizen. Criminals will always have access to weaponry and would become embolden as they would no longer have an armed citizenry to potentially fight back against their criminal deeds. As they say an armed society is a polite society.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Mudboy
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:19 am

First off, I own a gun, and my current job assignment requires that I carry one, and be qualified on several types. When I am stateside I always have a gun in my vehicle because, in my state you POV is considered an extension of your home. I also have a CCW, but leave it im my car when I go in Wal-Mart, the mall etc.I am well trained on how to use one, and must qualify every 6 months. I am also a member of the NRA

With all that being said, I hate guns and what they do to people, and spending years as a Paramedic in the Box, on the Helo, in SRT/SWAT, I have seen many people killed with them, and I will not even get into my time deployed in OEF and OIF. Yes, I know, guns don't kill people, people kill people, but you have a hard time convincing me that if guns were not so easily obtained, that the murder rate in the US would be what it is. It is much easier to pull a trigger, than it is to stab someone to death, how many people would rob a store, and stab everyone to death in the store?

With that being said, guns are a necessary evil. Do I wish we lived in a world without them? yes! Is it possible, no!
I agree that if we took them away from the law-abiding citizens, only the criminals would have them, therefore laws taking them away, are futile. Do I agree there should be tighter restrictions and greater responsibility with owning a gun? yes!

And yes, the Second Amendment grants us the right, but I don't think when writing it they had in mind, the paranoid that was stockpiling weapons for the next Zombie Apocolypse. I always said, I don't know what is worse, the Gov. taking away your guns, or the paranoid that stockpiles weapons that thinks the Gov. coming to take away his gun?

Another thing I think that makes us look bad are the guys that want to walk around in Home Depot or Wal-Mart with a gun on their side, like this is the wild west, or they are a LEO. What kind of inferiority complex do you have, if you wanna show off your gun, serve your country or become a LEO? We are supposed to be one of the most advanced and civilized countries, yet we want to carry guns around on us like we are a country in the middle east?

Ok, there are those that argue that if everyone had guns at the incident in AZ, this would have never happened, but unless you have ever been in combat, you don't know how you would react? Shooting paper targets at the range, does not prepare you to react, and fall back on your training, the way military or LEO training does. Also, if you are wearing your gun on your side, you have made yourself a priority target.

I think that we as Americans have a right to own guns, but think there should be certain limitations, this is no longer the 1800s, and it is no wonder some other nations view us as barbaric fools!
Stay Safe!

[Edited 2011-01-09 21:26:04]
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:25 am

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 18):
do think background checks are necessary for all purchasers and no one needs an AR-15 or AK-47 to defend their house.
Quoting flymia (Reply 26):
However I also see no need for a person to have an AK-47.

These points always come up, and I would like to point out that there are SIGNIFICANT differences between the M16 & AK47's on the battlefield than the one you can purchase at the local gun shop. But, the liberal, anti-gun media wouldn't tell you that, because it would take the anger and emotion out of their campaign. Quite honestly, an AR15 or AK47 that is available to the public is no different than any deer hunting rifle available to purchase.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Superfly
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:37 am

How come when ever these gun control threads come up, the attention is always focused on the United States?
What about Switzerland? They are a very well armed society and no one ever complains about that.
What about Mexico and Russia? Those two countries have very strict gun control laws and are those countries safe?
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Mudboy
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:42 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
What about Mexico and Russia? Those two countries have very strict gun control laws and are those countries safe?

Ask Michael Moore, because nobody gets murdered in those countries, right?  
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:50 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
How come when ever these gun control threads come up, the attention is always focused on the United States?
What about Switzerland? They are a very well armed society and no one ever complains about that.

I would also think you could reasonably say, that despite the Swiss being well armed, they don't appear to suffer the same problem as in the US with horrific public shootings regularly, even once the population difference is taken into account.

I am not sure on the exact statistics on gun killings in the US v's Switzerland, dose anyone have an idea ?, would be interesting to take a look at.
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Mir
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:55 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 28):
if we took them away from the law-abiding citizens, only the criminals would have them, therefore laws taking them away, are futile.

I'm not entirely convinced that there is any real correlation between more gun ownership and lower homicide rates.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
What about Mexico and Russia? Those two countries have very strict gun control laws and are those countries safe?

If they could enforce those laws properly, they might well be safer than they are now, yes.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
What about Switzerland? They are a very well armed society and no one ever complains about that.

Lots of people have guns, sure, but they're not allowed to open up their ammunition unless they're called up for militia duty. Hardly analogous to gun ownership in the US.

Ultimately, it would seem that among the various factors that contribute to a high or low crime rate, whether or not lots of people have guns is pretty far down the list, beyond things like wealth, social structure, government structure and effectiveness, employment levels, etc.

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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:00 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 33):
If they could enforce those laws properly, they might well be safer than they are now, yes.

Key word; IF.


Kind of silly to use 'if' scenarios. If everything was done right in this world, this would be a utopia.
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:07 am

OR... maybe we can start reopening mental/crazy hospitals, and we can start filling them up with these nuts.
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:13 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 35):
OR... maybe we can start reopening mental/crazy hospitals, and we can start filling them up with these nuts.

I said that in reply #14 & 16.
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:19 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 36):
I said that in reply #14 & 16.

You're absolutely correct, I apologize Sup! lol just consider it an affirmation of just how correct you were!
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:26 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
Key word; IF.


Kind of silly to use 'if' scenarios. If everything was done right in this world, this would be a utopia.

Indeed. But that only goes to show that strict or lenient gun laws don't make a whole lot of difference one way or the other - the overall society has far more of an effect.

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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:31 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 3):
In fact, had anyone in the immediate vicinity been carrying a firearm as well, it's likely this lunatic wouldn't have racked up as many victims as he did.

It's just as likely that more innocent bystanders would have gotten hurt from stray bullets fired while trying to hit the shooter, so that argument doesn't really work

  

Hogwash. Not only do you not know that, it's actually more logical to conclude that any Good Samaritan with a firearm attempting to end the bloodshed would have had fewer - if any - stray bullets since they'd be focused on one solitary target instead of the random shooting pattern employed by the lunatic gunman.
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:38 am

Gun control: Being able to hit what you are aiming at.

So, to answer the original question: Yes, everyone should have a gun control policy.
 
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:41 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 39):
it's actually more logical to conclude that any Good Samaritan with a firearm attempting to end the bloodshed would have had fewer - if any - stray bullets since they'd be focused on one solitary target instead of the random shooting pattern employed by the lunatic gunman.

If they the good luck to be in close proximity, perhaps. If they were halfway across the crowd, perhaps not.

Either way, the whole scenario is a hypothetical. And from what I understand, it would have been entirely legal for someone to be standing in the right spot with a gun, and yet they weren't. Are you suggesting we should mandate gun ownership?

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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:59 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
from what I understand, it would have been entirely legal for someone to be standing in the right spot with a gun, and yet they weren't

Absolutely true. It's a shame there wasn't such a person nearby.

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
Are you suggesting we should mandate gun ownership?

Not at all - where would you get such an idea? Kind of a stretch for you to make that suggestion.

I DO believe that voluntary firearms safety training is beneficial for everyone, though - especially at a young age. I had such training in the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts and found it to be invaluable in terms of learning what firearms are capable of and how to safely and responsibly handle one.
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:22 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 2):
We have one - it's called the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. Besides, this weekend's senseless attack was a crazy nutjob control issue, not a gun control one.

Was it? How'd he get a gun? In the UK, he'd never have got near one.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 18):
A million laws are not going to prevent all gun crimes but arming everyone is not going to make the streets and neighborhoods safe.

If you listen to the NRA, guns are not associated with gun-related crime, they should be as easy to buy as chewing gum, and having every single citizen armed will make a safer society.

The NRA also likes to get rid of the first half of the 2nd Amendment, which contains the words "well-regulated." On the NRA Headquarters and stationery, only the 2nd half of the Amendment is quoted.

It's as if Cheech and Chong started a drug policy organization.
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:23 am

The shooter already broke a variety of laws to get the gun he used. More laws to disarm citizens so they can't defend themselves from criminals doesn't change that, in fact it only makes for more victims.

As is clearly seen in countries with extremely strict anti-gun laws, like most of the EU.

Of course once you ban guns, only criminals have guns and there's noone left to stop them. As is clearly shown by the data from the US as well, where the vast majority of gun crime (or indeed any crime) is committed in the areas with the strictest anti-gun laws and regulations.
Schoolshootings are easy, most schools ban guns on the premises.
Illegal guns are easy to get for those who want them, whether you allow guns to be purchased legally or not.

No, the best thing to do would be to require every citizen to be armed and proficient with his weapon at all times.
That's probably the only way to minimise victims, as any criminal stupid enough to try anything would be very quickly overpowered (and most would not even dream of trying to pull out a gun and start shooting, knowing full well they'd never get more than one or two shots off before being turned into Swiss cheese).
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Superfly
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:24 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 38):
Indeed. But that only goes to show that strict or lenient gun laws don't make a whole lot of difference one way or the other - the overall society has far more of an effect.

So in other words, gun control is a meanless law.
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:40 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 2):
We have one - it's called the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. Besides, this weekend's senseless attack was a crazy nutjob control issue, not a gun control one.

Was it? How'd he get a gun? In the UK, he'd never have got near one.

Would it have made you feel any better if he'd slashed her throat with a knife instead? A nut with an agenda is a nut with an agenda - the weaponry used is incidental.
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Superfly
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:48 am

Question:
Would a knife ban make the U.K. any safer?

Aluminum baseball bat sales are up sharply in Russia but not baseballs and gloves. Just bats.
Nationalist race related beatings and and killings is almost a daily occurrence in this nation with strict gun control laws.

http://themoscownews.com/society/20101220/188292994.html?referfrommn
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gosimeon
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:07 am

I think the problems with violence using guns in the USA would be a LOT less if:
-Gangs were put in jail
-There was a better mental health support system in some states
-The rules for owning and bringing a gun outside the home were stricter

I'm glad to be somewhere where guns are not prevalent, but must admit in my time in the States I never even saw a gun. I know most people in the States would never use one violently, but all it takes is 1 person to cause a lot of trouble using a gun.
 
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RE: Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?

Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:08 am

Quoting flyorski (Thread starter):
With the recent shooting of a congresswomen in Arizona, I have to wonder if gun control would be possible in the U.S.

My personal opinion is that although it has been implemented with mixed success in Germany, it would be much more difficult to implement in the United States. In the United States guns are so widespread, that for the Government to try to restrict them would have serious back-lash for what ever political party might try. I doubt it would be possible even if a majority of citizens would argue for it.

Most people who use firearms in a crime are prohibited from owning or buying them, anyway. Either due to being convicted felons, being diagnosed as mentally ill, being a drug user, or because they have a history of domestic violence or have protection orders out against them.. Yet they still get the guns illegally through the black market! Gun control won't stop that because criminals don't care about laws. Therefore, law abiding citizens would be prevented/restricted in obtaining guns for protection, yet the criminal would keep on obtaining them illegally and using them against innocent people.

I'm not sure why anti-gun people think gun control would curb the violence caused by criminals who are already prevented from possessing or using weapons, but do anyway? They're just going to continue to obtain them illegally like they always have. Do these anti-gun types even realize that the guns used by these people usually weren't purchased from the local gun store like law abiding citizens get theres? They are either black market guns, or stolen. ALl the gun control in the world isn't going to stop violence when criminals don't care about what the the laws are anyway, and obtain their guns illegally!

Look at cities like Washington DC, Chicago, New York, Boston with extreme gun control, and tell me how well it's worked at preventing gun violence? The criminals don't care about the law, and continue to carry and use guns at will, while the honest law abiding citizen is completely defenseless because they respect the law and can't legally possess a gun! And because the follow the law, the refrain from obtaining one. The bad guys know most people are unarmed as a result, and know they can victimize them without much fear of defense. It's BS!

The only gun control the law abiding citizen needs is a steady hand! Hypothetically, when they can get criminals to abide by the laws, than maybe gun control would cut back on violence? However, I think pigs will fly before your average gun carrying criminal reasons "Hey, I'm a felon, and It's illegal for me to have this gun I stole or bought off the street.... The gun control laws prohibit me from owning this, so I'm afraid I'm just going to have to turn it in because God for bid, I care about following the law and I can't possess this!"

All a gun is is a piece of metal and wood. (Especially without bullets! ) It's a iharmless object unless used as a weapon. Just like a knife, a bat, a screw driver, a sword, a hammer, car, etc. Yet there's nobody out there demanding control on knives, bats and cars. You have some people who say the only purpose is to kill, but that's rubbish. A lo of people target shoot both recreation ally and competitively. There are even guns made for target shooting. So indeed, guns aren't just made for killing.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Even if you managed to pass a constitutional amendment overturning the second amendment, it would be impossible to collect all the guns. Most law-abiding citizens might, but none of the crooks would leaving the gangbangers with guns and everyone else defenseless. Home invasions and armed robberies would go through the roof

Yeah, look at the stats on home invasion/robbery in states with tough gun control, vs. states with liberal policies concerning gun control and property defense, where the criminals know a lot of homeowners are armed. The states with tough gun control have way more robberies and invasions.

Quoting flyorski (Reply 6):
Do you feel the U.S. should implement a nationwide test to check mental health before allowing a fire-arm to be purchased?

Don;t know how it works, but we already have it somewhat,... When you fill out the paperwork for the FBI background check it specifically asks if you've ever been diagnosed with illnesses such as schizophrenia, or bi-polar disorder. It asks if you're a convicted felon, an illegal drug user., or if you have (or even have had) a court ordered protection from abuse restraining order against you; or if you've ever been convicted of domestic violence? If you answer "no" and it should be yes, it specifically states you're committing a crime by lying and are legally prevented from being sold the gun. What I'm unclear on is when the firearm dealer calls the FBI to run the check, does the FBI have some sort of database that shows if you've even been diagnosed with these illnesses, convicted of these crimes, or had a restraining order served?

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 18):
I do think background checks are necessary for all purchasers and no one needs an AR-15 or AK-47 to defend their house.

Who's who to say what one needs and doesn't? I have three "AK-47's" an AR-15 (civilian version of military M-16) and numerous other semi auto hunting rifles and shotguns. The reason I use quotation marks is because the "AK-47's" most people have in the USA aren't really even AK-47's! Real -47's are fully automatic machine guns that one needs a federal license to posses. The "AK-47's" most people like myself have are semi-automatic sporting versions. Cosmetically they look the same as a real AK, but mechanically they function no different than your dad's semi-auto deer rifle. One trigger pull shoots one bullet! You can't just hold down the trigger and spray! Yet, because they have the appearance of a military assault rifle, and look "scary" people that don't know anything about guns think they should be banned while other semi-auto's they have no problem with.

Oh, and I'd agree a -47 (Or any rifle besides maybe a .22LR) wouldn't be good for home defense unless maybe you were in a rural area far from neighbors, and there weren't other people in the home. But who's to say people might not want one for home defense? I use a .357 Mag with .38SPC rounds, or a shotgun for home defense. I simply got my "AK-47" to take to the range or the gravel pit and blast cans and targets with because it's fun. And it's good stress relief!





[Edited 2011-01-10 00:38:00]

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