holzmann
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Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:43 pm

After lurking here for many years, I finally decided to take the plunge.

I have been flying one way or another since I was an infant. I was a private pilot (in training) for a few years until finances dictated cheaper hobbies. I fly quite regularly both domestically (US) and internationally (To Europe) for business and leisure travel.

Anyway, to my thread topic...

To what extent do you all think "anti-Americanism" plays a role in an airline's decision to purchase Airbus over Boeing? Would a country, perhaps pissed off by American politics or unwilling to support a US defense contractor, want to purchase Boeing aircraft? I am or course specifically referring to those expanding economies in the Middle East and Asia. And to what extent, if anything, can Boeing distance itself from such political sentiments?
 
U2380
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:51 pm

I'm sure a lot of the time, not much. Most airlines tend to have a mixed fleet.

But I'm sure there is exceptions, AA comes to mind, but even with them, there is the A300 incidents to add to the equation.
 
manfredj
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:01 pm

The only limits of what or who Boeing would sell to are the limits set by out federal government. Just this month we find Boeing is fighting sanctions set on Iran. Although this doesn't have a huge impact on its bottom line, it costs millions in potential sales. This should tell you that Boeing (and exxon in this case) are all about business. They are in business to make money...it's that simple.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...-would-drop.html?xid=huffbloomberg

As most know, Boeing's products span much greater than just commercial aicraft. These transactions are typically handled with more care. Of course, since Boeing has a lot more to offer than other manufacturs, some countries don't have a choice but to buy from them.

In terms of airline choice? They should buy what they want from who they want. Airlines like American, Delta, Continental, Southwest, and Alaskan who have long ties with Boeing, take comfort in their relationships. It makes purchasing easer at a better price with more priority.

We will never know if the one manufacturer philosophy is the best route. Based on the success of Southwest and seeing that Delta and American have long been the leading carriers in the US, I can't help but to think it is. Three manufacturers who had "mixed" fleets (Northwest, United and USAir) have all sufferred. Is it that simple? I think so...other's however don't.

[Edited 2011-01-17 09:14:02]
757: The last of the best
 
330guy
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:04 pm

Welcome to A.net

Yes and No, we would like to see it played fairly but Id be shocked if it didnt go on in one way or another.

But for the most part I think any credible airline wont take something like that into account.
Aircraft flown: a300/10/20/21/30/40, b727/37/47/57/67/, DC9, MD80-90, l1011, f50, atr42/72, shorts360, pc12
 
tharanga
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:07 pm

While politics and bribery do play a role in aircraft acquisition, I'm not sure where you'll find much evidence of simple anti-Americanism.

Conviasa has Boeings, though maybe they won't like to buy more.

Air Koryo and Cubana are maybe special cases. Iran is also a special case, but they operate old Boeings, and I think they have said they'd like to buy more, if they were allowed.

That's about it, I think. So I don't think it's much to talk about.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:08 pm

Quoting holzmann (Thread starter):
To what extent do you all think "anti-Americanism" plays a role in an airline's decision to purchase Airbus over Boeing?

Very little. While it varies by model and options, Airbus aircraft have tons of American content. Likewise, Boeing jets have a significant amount of foreign content. You're not really sticking-it to the U.S.A. by ordering one or the other.

Quoting holzmann (Thread starter):
I am or course specifically referring to those expanding economies in the Middle East and Asia

I think you should look at the fleets of those Middle Eastern or Asian airlines before jumping to conclusions about anti-American purchasing habits. Boeing is very successful in both regions.

Quoting U2380 (Reply 1):
But I'm sure there is exceptions, AA comes to mind, but even with them, there is the A300 incidents to add to the equation.

Likewise, I think it's absurd that there is a "buy American" mentality with U.S. airlines. There are more Airbus jets in operation within the U.S. than any other country. Even AA was at one time the largest passenger A300 operator. They had a bad experience dealing with Airbus and they won't do business with them for the foreseeable future. That has nothing to do with nationalist sentiment.
 
manfredj
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:24 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 5):
Likewise, I think it's absurd that there is a "buy American" mentality with U.S. airlines.

I think the problem propenents of the one manufacturer philosophy have with your assertion, is that you have to tag the word "absurd" to your opinion.

Why is something that works absurd? It also suggests that if your had your way, you would make a policy that forbids them from doing so. Our economy doesn't work that way and companies have freedom of choice.
757: The last of the best
 
U2380
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:25 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 5):
I think it's absurd that there is a "buy American" mentality with U.S. airlines.

I don't remember saying that there was.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 5):
That has nothing to do with nationalist sentiment.

I don't remember saying that it defiantly did. I said that they come to mind, seeing as they have no Airbus or anything but (mainly) American built aeroplanes in their fleet. However I then went on to mention the A300 situation.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 5):
There are more Airbus jets in operation within the U.S. than any other country.

There are more aeroplanes operating in the U.S than anywhere else, your point is?br>
[Edited 2011-01-17 09:29:23]

[Edited 2011-01-17 09:33:36]
 
tharanga
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:33 pm

Quoting manfredj (Reply 6):
I think the problem propenents of the one manufacturer philosophy have with your assertion, is that you have to tag the word "absurd" to your opinion.

I think there is a misunderstanding here.

It was being demonstrated that there is no "buy american" mindset among US carriers. Thus, the idea that there is one is absurd. This is easily shown by glancing at the fleets of US, UA, NW/DL, B6 and F9.

Just as the idea (from the OP) that Middle East and Asian countries might avoid Boeing is absurd. A mere glance at their fleets, laden with 777s, would prove that.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:37 pm

I think if you look at the areas where Boeing sells commercial aircraft (747 freighters, the 777 family, the 787 family and the 737NG) they have a very compelling product. There isnt, perhaps with the notable exception of the 748i, any product in its lineup where you cannot make a case that it has the edge over its competition in some respects.

Companies buy the 737NG because it works the best for them. Companies buy the 77W because there isnt anything that offers the same payload/range combo at that operating cost, and companies buy the 77L because it offers unmatched range payload for what it does. I could go on.

Airbus' current product line is equally competitive and the two OEMs are so close in terms of price/capacity/range/payload/operating costs etc for their respective products, that things like training costs, currency exchange rate differentials etc generally end up being the deal maker or breaker. Politics is a bigger issue that it should be i think.

There arent too many companies in the world that wouldnt buy an American plane due to political issues, but i would respectfully contend that there are more airlines that wouldnt buy an Airbus due to political issues.

The numbers of both are dwindling thank God, and it is hoped that in the future, once some people have dealt with the fact that Airbus is here to stay, that protectionist politics will pay less of a role in the future. Of course, with massive billion dollar deals such as big airliner purchases, there will always be political pressure and both sides are as guilty as the other in this respect. There are markets where Boeing may be disadvantaged because of their nationality but I cannot think of any off the top of my head. The likes of Morocco, Pakistan, UAE, Jordan, Syria, China, Turkey, Russia and a few others could claim to be on opposite sides to the US politically and socio-religiously, but with the exception of Jordan and Syria, all have signed big Boeing deals in the recent past, so maybe it is not as big an issue as some may think.

Likewise there are the likes of Canada, South Korea, the USA, Japan etc where Airbus might be construed as being disadvantaged because of being "un-American" but again, in all three countries, there have been big Airbus deals in the recent past.

Sometimes it gets out of hand. I remember AI ordered a load of A343s back in the day, and the order was overturned and cancelled in the event due to intense political pressure from the Americans, who got a big 777 order out of it. I dont think anyone (except for the Americans) enjoyed seeing that go the way it did, with political jockeying and horse-trading and allegations of bribery and "wheel greasing" going backwards and forwards, but thats how it goes sometimes.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:39 pm

Quoting U2380 (Reply 7):

U2380, my apologies, you do not have to worry. I was not responding directly at you, but instead at those who might take your post as saying U.S. airlines have their own national preferences.   

Quoting U2380 (Reply 7):
There are more aeroplanes operating in the U.S than anywhere else, your point is?

It's proof that U.S. airlines don't succumb to national preferences.
 
U2380
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:45 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 10):
U2380, my apologies, you do not have to worry. I was not responding directly at you, but instead at those who might take your post as saying U.S. airlines have their own national preferences.

Oh, Ok thanks for the clarification.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 10):
It's proof that U.S. airlines don't succumb to national preferences.

Ok, Fair dues.   
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:49 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 10):
Quoting U2380 (Reply 7):
There are more aeroplanes operating in the U.S than anywhere else, your point is?

It's proof that U.S. airlines don't succumb to national preferences.

That may be true now, but it certainly has not been in the past, and it certainly is not true of the fanboys of said US majors on here who most certainly DO succumb to petty national preferences. See the recent DL narrowbody thread for some shining examples of some of the worst anti-Airbus/anti-European rhetoric this site has to offer. There have been people on here seriously trying to tell us that DL prefer the 764ER over the A332, and would dump the Airbus in favour of more of the Boeing if they could, or indeed, that UACO will dump their huge A32X fleet in favour of more of the 737NG, despite having a smaller fleet of them at present. We've also been told that now UACO has been merged, the A350s UA ordered will not be taken up and the new company will buy more Boeings instead. Its embarrassing to read sometimes. I would be heartbroken if i were American to read this xenophobic claptrap flag waving in my name.

Good job these people do not make the fleet decisions at their respective airlines, is all I can say.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
kaitak
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:03 pm

Quoting holzmann (Thread starter):
To what extent do you all think "anti-Americanism" plays a role in an airline's decision to purchase Airbus over Boeing?

I don't think anti-Americanism plays a part with the airlines themselves to any significant extent; in those countries where anti-Americanism is particularly strong (Iran, NK, Cuba) sanctions will probably be in place anyway, so it's kind of academic. All that said, this is NOT the same as saying that politics doesn't play a role; it most certainly does, but in a positive way, i.e. it's not a question of being anti-this or pro-that; it's a question of what can we get as a result of choosing one side over another. If you look at many major state carriers, their fleet will reflect a fairly strong split; TK and TG are two very good examples. Another is China; we have Mr. Hu in Washington this week, making sure all the bases are covered; China buys widely from the US (who would bet against a significant Boeing order this week) and from Airbus. Now, Hu is in Washington (let's call it first base) and you can bet that his reasons for buying Boeings will not be based on anti-European sentiment, and vice versa (when Airbuses are ordered).

So, politics comes into it VERY much, but it's rarely due to anti-Americanism and MUCH more to maximise the interests of the country/airline in question; after all, airline purchases (along with military purchases) are almost always the largest trade deals between two countries, so naturally the buying country wants to make sure it gets its monies worth!

Quoting manfredj (Reply 2):
This should tell you that Boeing (and exxon in this case) are all about business. They are in business to make money...it's that simple.

As is everyone - airlines too!
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:07 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 12):
DL prefer the 764ER over the A332

That actually is the sworn truth.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 12):
See the recent DL narrowbody thread for some shining examples of some of the worst anti-Airbus/anti-European rhetoric this site has to offer

Seems like there are more pro-Airbus comments than anti-Airbus comments in that thread.
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Dahlgardo
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:15 pm

Nationalistic US preferences for Boeing do exist IMHO

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It is pretty remarkable, that huge US airlines like AA, CO (pre UACO), DL appears to be persuing a "buy Boeing no matter what"-philosophy. Such a tendency doesn't really exist in Europe, where AF, BA and LH all are major Boeing costumers, despite the respective national states relations to Airbus.

In a global marketplace, I have little sympathy for protectionism and nationalism, since neither of them will benifit the economy long run.
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PacNWjet
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:59 pm

Quoting Dahlgardo (Reply 15):
Nationalistic US preferences for Boeing do exist IMHO

Alaska Airlines airlines is a special case. Alaska (despite it name) is headquartered in Seattle; Boeing, despite having its corporate headquarters in Chicago, is still largely based in Seattle. This is an issue of Alaska Airlines and Boeing both being part of the "hometown team" in Seattle. In my opinion, it has nothing to do with Alaska asserting some sort of nationalistic motivation. It's just about two Seattle companies (Boeing's corporate headquarters in Chicago notwithstanding) expressing municipal hometown pride.
 
Klaus
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:02 pm

Quoting Dahlgardo (Reply 15):
Nationalistic US preferences for Boeing do exist IMHO

Do you have any explicit validation for that specific claim?

Alaska may be a bad example since their use of 737s has been said to be at least in part related to its somewhat better suitability to austere airfields which appears plausible; Airbus has made a different tradeoff which on the one hand will now make the A320 NEO easier to implement but doesn't suit specialist airlines like Alaska as well.

Quoting Dahlgardo (Reply 15):
It is pretty remarkable, that huge US airlines like AA, CO (pre UACO), DL appears to be persuing a "buy Boeing no matter what"-philosophy.

It may not be quite as simple as that. Such a single-supplier situation can be somewhat symbiotic and does not need to be based on jingoistic motives (it better shouldn't be – in the end, most airline shareholders usually look out for their own value first and foremost).

The supplier will remain under pressure to match or better any offer by the competition (which can be painful) not least to avoid a high-profile customer defection.

The customer, on the other hand, can squeeze the manufacturer a good bit harder than usual but may miss out on a competitive advantage available to their direct competition using the other manufacturer's gear.

Unless the manufacturer resorts to outright dumping in this kind of deal (which will be dangerous), such situations tend to be unstable in the long run; I doubt that they will persist for very long.
 
cargolex
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:03 pm

I don't think that AS being all-Boeing necessarily indicates that they eschewed Airbus because Airbus isn't an American company. It's a big leap to suggest that. But AS has operated Boeing NBs since the 727 and had an infrastructure that was far more suited to adding more 737s than adding another type from another manufacturer. They used to also fly products from Douglas before deciding that it made more sense economically to operate only one basic type a-la Ryanair/Southwest.

An airline like AS watches the bottom line most of all, although being based in Seattle, saying that they are "Proudly all-Boeing" isn't a bad thing for them and may actually have some serious local appeal. But I don't think their choice was made on the grounds of "We're going to buy American no matter what else we're offered."

Similarly, B6 operates only Airbus and Embraer types because they've focused around those types since inception. They wouldn't add the 73G now because it would not make economical sense to do so with a huge fleet of A320s. I don't think anybody at B6 is "Anti American."

Basically, IMO, airlines decide what to buy mostly based on what works for them unless there are strong political considerations, such as the cases of Cubana, Air Koryo, or perhaps El Al.
 
BMI727
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:17 pm

Quoting Dahlgardo (Reply 15):
Nationalistic US preferences for Boeing do exist IMHO

That's after the fact marketing. They are trying to appeal to the moronic people who actually do go out of their way to buy American, not to mention the local Seattle population. It's worth noting that even Boeing does not give a crap who's planes their people fly.

If the A320 had been determined to be a better deal for Alaska, they would have taken it.
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hka098
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:07 am

I would think the airlines would opt for the best aircraft for their money. Politics aside, don't most airlines lease their aircraft?
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:04 am

Quoting manfredj (Reply 2):
We will never know if the one manufacturer philosophy is the best route. Based on the success of Southwest and seeing that Delta and American have long been the leading carriers in the US, I can't help but to think it is. Three manufacturers who had "mixed" fleets (Northwest, United and USAir) have all sufferred. Is it that simple? I think so...other's however don't.

Nearly every airline has mixed fleets. AA and DL did and do have mixed fleets. Were those MD-80s and MD-88s built by Boeing? No, they weren't (Funny that everyone seems to forget that there used to be more than one major airliner manufacturer in the US.) They may be "Boeing MD-80s" and "Boeing MD-88s" now, but I doubt AA and DL foresaw that when they ordered their MD-80 and MD-88 fleets from McDonnell-Douglas. And DL's fleet, with the NW merger, is now far more mixed than UA's fleet of A319s and A320s.

Just calling it how I see it there.

Quoting Dahlgardo (Reply 15):
Such a tendency doesn't really exist in Europe, where AF, BA and LH all are major Boeing costumers, despite the respective national states relations to Airbus.

Oh really? LH's shorthaul fleet is much more Airbus than Boeing. LH has 49 new shorthaul aircraft on order. All 49 of those will come from the factory in Hamburg. What isn't Airbus is Boeing 737-300s and 737-500s. I highly doubt those are recent orders, and much more likely are some of LH's oldest birds, which shows me when it comes to its shorthaul fleet, LH is going to favor the company that builds planes in the same country, unless you want to explain this as a "coincidence". Now I'm not even saying I have a problem with this. I under and respect LH's philosophy if they wish to support German-based jobs. I'm just pointing out the flaw in your logic that you either didn't think about it or just decided to brush aside.

[Edited 2011-01-17 20:11:12]
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WarRI1
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:39 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 21):
I under and respect LH's philosophy if they wish to support German-based jobs. I'm just pointing out the flaw in your logic that you either didn't think about it or just decided to brush aside.

Exactly, I think we will see more and more of this, the protection of home based jobs, gasp! even in Europe. I love the reaction to anyone in the US who advocate protecting US jobs. I notice we are accused on a regular basis from other countries, especially Europe it seems. I have to wonder what Airbus is doing, what Embraer is doing, what Bombardier is doing, protecting US jobs? I do not think so.
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Klaus
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:24 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 21):
Quoting Dahlgardo (Reply 15):
Such a tendency doesn't really exist in Europe, where AF, BA and LH all are major Boeing costumers, despite the respective national states relations to Airbus.

Oh really?

Yes, really. It has been LH's practice to have a mixed fleet for a long time by now.

They have been the launch customer of the 737, if you might recall. At this point they've got 737, 747-400, MD-11F and soon they'll add 747-800i as one of only two airlines worldwide beside their Airbus aircraft.
Lufthansa Fleet | Airfleets aviation

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 21):
LH is going to favor the company that builds planes in the same country, unless you want to explain this as a "coincidence".

You are simply wrong on that one. LH has always had a much clearer head in their fleet planning than you seem to know, and that is a good thing.

By the way: Air France is a major 747 and 777 operator as well:
Air France Fleet | Airfleets aviation

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DocLightning
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:24 am

Quoting Dahlgardo (Reply 15):
Such a tendency doesn't really exist in Europe, where AF, BA and LH all are major Boeing costumers, despite the respective national states relations to Airbus.

IB has no Boeing orders.

But the only US major (and by "major" I mean a large airline operating more than one type) that is truly all-Boeing at this time is AA (counting McD as Boeing). DL inherited a lot of Airbii and it turns out that they're very happy with them. They are most certainly considering Airbus in their future fleet plans. UA has a bunch of A350's on order and they haven't been canceled since the merger.

It's easy for AS and WN to be all-Boeing. They operate one and only one fleet type: the 737. But if either airline started looking into the widebody market, I bet they would consider both manufacturers carefully. It would amuse, but not completely shock me to see an AS A330.
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Superfly
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:41 am

Quoting Dahlgardo (Reply 15):
Such a tendency doesn't really exist in Europe, where AF, BA and LH all are major Boeing costumers, despite the respective national states relations to Airbus.


Sure about that?
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...o-take-russian-built-aircraft.html

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 16):
Alaska Airlines airlines is a special case. Alaska (despite it name) is headquartered in Seattle; Boeing, despite having its corporate headquarters in Chicago, is still largely based in Seattle. This is an issue of Alaska Airlines and Boeing both being part of the "hometown team" in Seattle. In my opinion, it has nothing to do with Alaska asserting some sort of nationalistic motivation. It's just about two Seattle companies (Boeing's corporate headquarters in Chicago notwithstanding) expressing municipal hometown pride.



Good point but any attempt to bash the United States is fashionable in some circles.
As a matter of fact, Alaska Airlines serves Seattle's Best Coffee on-board their flights.
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Makes sense to me.
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ozglobal
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:58 am

Quoting holzmann (Thread starter):
To what extent do you all think "anti-Americanism" plays a role in an airline's decision to purchase Airbus over Boeing? Would a country, perhaps pissed off by American politics or unwilling to support a US defense contractor, want to purchase Boeing aircraft?

Why only frame the question about others? The US are as protectionist as any major power, especially in defense related procurement. The tanker fiasco comes to mind. I hear much more 'buy American' political rhetoric in the US than any 'buy European' lobbying here in Europe. The 77W has long been the flagship and workhorse of AF who were Boeing's launch customer, here in the same country as Toulouse. Also, LH are a key Boeing customer, as are KL, BA, etc. As for the Emerging Market economies, it still usually comes down to economics. How you get the lowest price just differs.



[Edited 2011-01-18 00:10:29]
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:09 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):
They have been the launch customer of the 737, if you might recall.

Gee, maybe because Airbus didn't have any short-haul aircraft to offer until the mid-1980s? No, that couldn't be a huge part of the answer...   

Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):
As a matter of fact, Alaska Airlines serves Seattle's Best Coffee on-board their flights.

Just as I'm sure we'll continue to see ATL-based Coca-Cola products on Delta jets for a long time.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
Klaus
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:25 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 27):
Gee, maybe because Airbus didn't have any short-haul aircraft to offer until the mid-1980s? No, that couldn't be a huge part of the answer...

If LH conducted its fleet management as small-mindedly and pettily as you seem to think, they would have no Boeing and no Douglas planes in their fleet today, nor would they be one of only two launch customers of the 747-800i.

Nor would they be as healthy and successful as they actually are.

Huge corporations like LH usually(!) manage to think somewhat above sandbox level.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:31 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 27):
Gee, maybe because Airbus didn't have any short-haul aircraft to offer until the mid-1980s? No, that couldn't be a huge part of the answer...



You're right, it couldn't. Because actually, the reverse is closer to the truth.

Maybe, instead of throwing barbs at other posters or Lufthansa, you should consider the simple case that LH, like many other airlines, first ordered the A320 family before Boeing had launched the 737NG. Thus, at the time they first ordered them, the A320 was a significantly better plane than the 737 classics that Boeing was offering.

LH received their first A320 in 1989. Southwest placed the first 737NG order in 1993.

So, rather than trying to assign this to some great socio-political conspiracy involving Europeans, perhaps it was a simple business decision? We need new short-haul planes, we can take more of these old 737 classics, or this new, much more efficient Airbus.

It's just a possibility, no?
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:24 pm

Quoting holzmann (Thread starter):
To what extent do you all think "anti-Americanism" plays a role in an airline's decision to purchase Airbus over Boeing?

holzmann, I tend to think either 'minimally' or 'not at all.' Airlines, first and foremost, have to choose the best aeroplanes for their intended purposes at any point in time - to protect their profits (always a marginal thing where airlines are concerned). And, moreover, I think that all of them (over the whole world) - do their best to maintain a 'reasonable balance' between the two main manufacturers.

I reckon that it comes down to 'the best aeroplane for the purpose' at any given time. So the 737 held sway for a long time; then the A320 surpassed it; then Boeing upgraded the 737 and 'drew level' again - and so on........

Occasionally the manufacturers make mistakes. To my mind the A380 was one such; any new aeroplane that requires individual airports to spend tens of millions of dollars on accommodating it is going to have a tough time selling itself to ANY airline, American or European or Asian. Conversely, though, they occasionally hit the jackpot; the huge number of orders achieved by the 787, even despite the recent delays, are testimony to the fact that "If it's good enough, it'll sell......"

Generally, I really do think that there is less 'nationalism' in the field of airline model selection than in most other commercial fields. Usually, the 'best available option' wins out, regardless of nationality. One only has to look at the (almost un-noticed) success of the Triple-Seven, and the fact that the old-design but 'well-proven' A330 is still selling, to see that?
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:52 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 29):
Maybe, instead of throwing barbs at other posters or Lufthansa

Where am I "throwing barbs" at Lufthansa? In Reply 21, I said I don't have a problem with this mentality (buying from in-country suppliers to support in-country jobs), if that is indeed their mentality. If LH buys A319s and A321s for their narrow-body fleet, in-whole or in-part because they undergo final assembly in Hamburg (the A320 undergoes final assembly in Toulouse - I incorrectly thought the entire A320 line underwent final assembly in Hamburg in an earlier post), then more power to them (LH).

Quoting scbriml (Reply 29):
It's just a possibility, no?

Just as it's a possibility that some European airlines might favor Airbus due to European ties. The fact that every that just about every European on here is too snobbish to even consider that as a possibility tells me exactly why it's a possibility.
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Klaus
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:11 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 31):
Just as it's a possibility that some European airlines might favor Airbus due to European ties. The fact that every that just about every European on here is too snobbish to even consider that as a possibility tells me exactly why it's a possibility.

That could be a possibility. Where you're really making a mistake is by unconditionally excluding every other possible explanation.

Another explanation could be that we're simply telling it like it is, with no "snobism" except in your imagination. And the more you're looking at the facts, the more you'll find they actually support this other explanation and are in substantial contradiction to your assumption.
 
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:26 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
Alaska may be a bad example since their use of 737s has been said to be at least in part related to its somewhat better suitability to austere airfields which appears plausible; Airbus has made a different tradeoff which on the one hand will now make the A320 NEO easier to implement but doesn't suit specialist airlines like Alaska as well.

Yeah, the A320 family can't take off from austere airfields at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjNkgpsp2Ys

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 21):
Oh really? LH's shorthaul fleet is much more Airbus than Boeing. LH has 49 new shorthaul aircraft on order. All 49 of those will come from the factory in Hamburg. What isn't Airbus is Boeing 737-300s and 737-500s. I highly doubt those are recent orders, and much more likely are some of LH's oldest birds, which shows me when it comes to its shorthaul fleet, LH is going to favor the company that builds planes in the same country, unless you want to explain this as a "coincidence".

Orly?
Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):
Sure about that?
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...o-take-russian-built-aircraft.html

Guess what, the Russian government still owns Aeroflot, and they have always forced them to buy Russian but too bad for you the SSJ has little to do with this thread but nice try there.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 31):
Just as it's a possibility that some European airlines might favor Airbus due to European ties

Ah, that must be why AF has more Boeing widebodies than Airbus widebodies.  
 
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:32 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 33):
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 21):
Oh really? LH's shorthaul fleet is much more Airbus than Boeing.

Orly?

Are you putting it on record that the Boeing 747-8I is now a "Shorthaul" aircraft?


Quoting Acheron (Reply 33):
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 31):
Just as it's a possibility that some European airlines might favor Airbus due to European ties

Ah, that must be why AF has more Boeing widebodies than Airbus widebodies.

Ah, you must have failed reading comprehension, as the key word in there is "some". Perhaps you missed it.    I also notice you didn't touch on your home country's airline of Iberia. Just how many Boeing aircraft do they currently have flying again?

Again - I really don't care if European airlines want to favor buying Airbus planes to support the European manufacturers and jobs. I'm just going to call it as I see it, good, bad, or in this case neutral. I just think it's hilarious how the Europeans on here get all bent out of shape at the fact that anyone would dare consider and mention that possibility, because in their minds, they're "better than that" (or at least want to be perceived that way), even though there's nothing wrong with such a mentality in my view.

[Edited 2011-01-18 19:55:49]
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:37 am

Quoting holzmann (Thread starter):
I finally decided to take the plunge.

If by 'plunge' you mean throwing a brick in the fishpond, then, definitely!  

Remember the rules of A.net:

#1. It is an A v. B thread
#2. If it isn't an A v B thread, refer to rule #1
#3. In non-Av forum, an A v. B thread becomes an US v Europe thread
#4. You may like Embraer, Bombardier, Suhkoi and Mitsubishi at the same time, but you shall not like both Boeing and Airbus
#5. Do not, at any time and for any imaginable circumstance, mention the word 'snowglobe'.

Plus a few I can't recall/make up now...


Anyhow. As far as my opinion on your original question, ironically, I think that if any airline is likely to be influenced politically in regards to their aircraft purchase, it probably would be airlines from the country of origin of said aircraft manufacturers. And this is, evidently, highly debatable.

As far as other nations in which you might think there is an anti-American bias within their government or population, I sincerely believe that they would still buy Boeings. I even think Iran Air would buy Boeings if they were allowed to.

Funny no-one mentioned Japan on this thread yet...   
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:41 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 33):
too bad for you the SSJ has little to do with this thread but nice try there.

Too bad for me?
I don't work for Boeing.
Not sure what's the purpose of throwing barbs.
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:54 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 34):
Ah, you must have failed reading comprehension, as the key word in there is "some". Perhaps you missed it. I also notice you didn't touch on your home country's airline of Iberia. Just how many Boeing aircraft do they currently have flying again?

I just checked, and unless I am mistaken, I do not see one aircraft of US origin, in the modern fleet. Funny that. If I remember correctly, Spain has some ties to Airbus and EADS, funny that also. Jobs from Airbus in Spain, now we know that is not the reason for no Boeings, Nah, could not be.
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:24 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 12):
See the recent DL narrowbody thread for some shining examples of some of the worst anti-Airbus/anti-European rhetoric this site has to offer.

Have you actually looked at the ages of said posters. None of them are DL employees, just kids in their teens and early twenties who don't know much about fleet decisions and simply wave the Boeing flag. Any poster worth their salt, isn't behaving in that fashion.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 12):
There have been people on here seriously trying to tell us that DL prefer the 764ER over the A332, and would dump the Airbus in favour of more of the Boeing if they could,

And again, those people aren't in charge of making fleet decisions, nor do they even work for DL. None of the posters in question has any idea what DL actually thinks of each fleet type. Whatever DL may think of the 764 and A332, I think it's abundantly clear that the market spoke loudly and clearly in that race.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 12):
that UACO will dump their huge A32X fleet in favour of more of the 737NG, despite having a smaller fleet of them at present.

I haven't looked at those threads recently, but I'm sure that the same holds true here. Likely, they are just Boeing flag-wavers who don't really know much about either aircraft family other than they hate Airbus for whatever the idiotic reason may be.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 14):
That actually is the sworn truth.

Do you have an actual source directly from DL that states this to the letter? I bet you don't...

Quoting scbriml (Reply 29):
LH, like many other airlines, first ordered the A320 family before Boeing had launched the 737NG. Thus, at the time they first ordered them, the A320 was a significantly better plane than the 737 classics that Boeing was offering.

Correct, and it was UAs decision to select the A320 over the 734 due to the formers superior range and economics that forced Boeing to launch the 737NG.
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Klaus
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:20 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 33):
Yeah, the A320 family can't take off from austere airfields at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjNkg...sp2Ys

Nice one! 

But this video actually demonstrates what I've been referring to near the end: They are using tractors and forklifts to unload the A319, which is not much of a problem at a research outpost where that kind of gear is around anyway but in a more rural setting it may just be more convenient to unload a 737 "by hand" since it is simply closer to the ground (which at the same time is a problem re-engining it á la 320NEO).

The "jurassic" 737 even came with the famous gravel kit option which was apparently useful for Alaska Airlines in the early days. And that they've stuck with the type since then is not that unusual. Many smaller single-type operators are conservative with their model selection and in most cases that is a useful strategy.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 34):
I just think it's hilarious how the Europeans on here get all bent out of shape at the fact that anyone would dare consider and mention that possibility, because in their minds, they're "better than that" (or at least want to be perceived that way), even though there's nothing wrong with such a mentality in my view.

"Bent out of shape"? No, sorry, no such thing.

Many posters in here – from both sides of the pond, no less – have simply and courteously pointed out the rather different facts. That's it.

The initial claim just doesn't hold water, and that becomes the more apparent the closer you're looking at the facts.
 
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:41 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 31):
if that is indeed their mentality

But it's been clearly demonstrated that that wasn't their mentality. It was because Boeing didn't have a competitive product when LH needed it. It was the loss of customers like LH and, more crucially, United that eventually forced Boeing to update the classic 737 and give us the NG.

You claim that European airlines might buy Airbus for altruistic reasons. The only evidence you offer to support this is that IB doesn't operate Boeing planes, but you seem to ignore abundant evidence to the contrary. You've failed to explain why 3 of Europe's top carries (BA, LH & AF/KL) operate large fleets of Boeing aircraft (and have all ordered more Boeing's recently), when perfectly acceptable Airbus alternatives are available. If these airlines operated all-Airbus fleets, you might have a point.

Maybe such a mentality did exist in the days of sate-owned national airlines, but we've moved on a long way from that.
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:26 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 40):
You've failed to explain why 3 of Europe's top carries (BA, LH & AF/KL) operate large fleets of Boeing aircraft (and have all ordered more Boeing's recently), when perfectly acceptable Airbus alternatives are available.

Agree entirely, scrimbl. Except that I have to question the issue of 'perfectly acceptable Airbus alternatives.' At the end of the day, Airbus so far has only ever produced three 'basic' models; the A300/310/330/340, the A320, and the A380. Boeing, over the same period, has produced many more 'options' - the 737, the 767, the matchless 772/773s, the 747 - and their available range (unless a couple of absolute 'disasters' occur) will shortly include the 787 and the 748 as well.

I feel myself that the true 'turning-point' was that dreadful '4 Engines 4 longhaul' episode. The Airbus 'top brass' thinking that they could counter the advent of ETOPS, with all its implications, with a mere advertising campaign...........

Both 'sizes' of Triple Sevens are still selling well - and the 787 (when it finally emerges from its 'teething troubles') looks like being yet another winner, if only because of the 800-plus orders it has already secured. So Boeing will have a range of no less than five aircraft (737, 787, 772, 773, and 748) providing options for almost ANY airline requirements; whereas Airbus will still be stuck (for at least the next couple of years) with only the A320, the A330, and the A380. Until they can finally produce the A350 (which, in any case, has had perforce to be aimed at the 'midpoint' between the 787 and the 777, and therefore may very well not compete overly effectively with either).

Sorry, 'screams' short-sighted management (on Airbus's part) to me. I get the feeling that the people who run Airbus, when all is said and done, just aren't, and never have been, 'aeroplane people.'

All in all, holtzmann, I don't think that you'll have much to worry about in the next few years. Boeing, with their wider range of types, are much better placed to provide 'horses for courses' for a much wider range of airlines than Airbus is.

Whichever 'nationalities' those airlines happen to hold..........

[Edited 2011-01-19 05:38:24]
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:43 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 41):
Sorry, 'screams' short-sighted management (on Airbus's part) to me. I get the feeling that the people who run Airbus, when all is said and done, just aren't, and never have been, 'aeroplane people.'

Wow, just wow.... I'm almost impressed at the amount of prejudice and ignorance that can be crammed into one post, but it looks like you have outdone yourself this time NAV20, I would almost say Congrats!

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 41):
the A300/310/330/340,

Just the fact that you think the A300/310/330/340 is one model... Wow!
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 41):
All in all, holtzmann, I don't think that you'll have much to worry about in the next few years. Boeing, with their wider range of types, are much better placed to provide 'horses for courses' for a much wider range of airlines than Airbus is.

Although Boeing has a very impressive catalogue I think Airbus has a better offer across the board;
A32XOEO (still going as strong as the 737NG is going)
A32XNEO (which so it seems is/gonna sell like hot cakes)
A330 (still selling like crazy, part due to the 787 delays, but still)
A350 (for a paper plane it is selling pretty damn well don't you think?)
A380 (promising rumours coming out of the middle east (QR), very satisfied customers. Has ALMOST blown the 747-8i out of the water)

But let's look at the much better 'horses for courses' range of Boeing;
737NG (Will Boeing re-engine or go ahead with Y1? Not known yet, but the A320NEO will probarbly spell the end for the 737NG in the long run)
767 (a few deliveries to ANA and maybe the tanker contest, but essentially it's done for)
777 (Same story as the 737NG, without an update it will slowly be taken over by the A350)
787 (IF they meet the perf. specs and WHEN they get it delivered it will spell the end for the 330 on the long run)
747-8i (A few orders here and there, but not a real threat for the A380)


Indeed NAV20, Boeing, with their wider range of types,, has nothing to worry about.....

[Edited 2011-01-19 05:45:18]

[Edited 2011-01-19 06:01:59]
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:49 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 42):
Just the fact that you think the A300/310/330/340 is one model...

It just plain IS, chum. The same basic 8-across fuselage - the A340 had four smaller engines instead of two bigger ones, that's the only serious variation........

[Edited 2011-01-19 05:55:37]
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:57 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 43):
t just plain IS, chum. The same basic 8-across fuselage - the A340 had four engines, that's the only variation........

So the fuselage defines model? So the 707, 727, 737 are the same model? And the fact that the A300 and A310 where developed for completly different markets and ranges, and the fact that they are from two different generations is not a important variable?

The fact that NOWHERE these models are counted as one model except in the mind of some biased A.nutter? But NAV20, I seem to remember you were/are a lawyer. So I guess you are taught never to make claims you can not substantiate. In that case I ask you to provide me with one credible source that the A300/310/330/340 is one model in different variations...

Also I am a bit dissapointed that you completly ignored the rest of my post, old chum...
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:06 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 41):
I feel myself that the true 'turning-point' was that dreadful '4 Engines 4 longhaul' episode. The Airbus 'top brass' thinking that they could counter the advent of ETOPS, with all its implications, with a mere advertising campaign...........


That's obviously a prejudice-tinged interpretation on your part, but very unlikely to match the actual attitudes at Airbus.

Airbus had the models they had – promoting their actual lineup was an obvious necessity, and not least for the non-ETOPS-qualified carriers this was indeed a significant factor. I doubt very much that anyone at Airbus had any illusions about what the campaign could actually accomplish and I don't expect you to have any such evidence either, but sometimes you just need to do what you need to do.

The A340 has had its valid role, not least collecting experience with large aircraft without which the A380 would probably not have been feasible and which also established Airbus as a true full-range manufacturer on par with Boeing. The 777 has eclipsed the A340's success in the market, so Airbus moves on towards the A350 while the success of the A330 has played its part in motivating the 787.

That's simply the way this dance is done.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 41):
So Boeing will have a range of no less that five aircraft (737, 787, 772, 773, and 748) providing options for almost ANY airline requirements; whereas Airbus will still be stuck (for at least the next couple of years) with only the A320, the A330, and the A380.


Actually:
Boeing has the 737, 747, 767, 777.
Airbus has the 320, 330, 340, 380.

Both manufacturers have stronger and weaker models in their lineup. Both overlap the other's lineup to a certain extent but for very good reasons they tend to aim their new models more or less to the side the respective opposite models.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 41):
Until they can finally produce the A350 (which, in any case, has had perforce to be aimed at the 'midpoint' between the 787 and the 777, and therefore may very well not compete overly effectively with either).

You're mistaken if you assume that exactly one of the two lineups was somehow inherently "perfect" and the other manufacturer would have to target the exact same sizes and configurations, which would only duplicate the holes in this lineup and leave many customers with specific needs out of luck on either side.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 41):
Sorry, 'screams' short-sighted management (on Airbus's part) to me. I get the feeling that the people who run Airbus, when all is said and done, just aren't, and never have been, 'aeroplane people.'

Nothing could be further from the truth. Airbus has been created by aggregating many formerly separate european aviation manufacturers with deep historical roots. If you had a point, it would show up as weak product performance on the technical, operational and not least financial level. But that is obviously not the case at all.

Airbus is highly successful on the merits of its products, as is Boeing.

Maybe people at Airbus actually know a thing or two about airplanes, as do people at Boeing.

Oversimplifying these extremely complex industrial conglomerates to the level of sandbox bickering just misses the much more adult realities.
 
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:21 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 44):
Also I am a bit dissapointed that you completly ignored the rest of my post, old chum...

Sorry mate, did 'shoot from the hip' a bit.

Of course, it can sometimes make sense (in all business fields) to 'reinforce success.' But, to my mind, Airbus have stuck to a 'proven model' (the A3whatever  ) for far too long. Then they made the (to my mind, colossal) mistake of putting all their resources, for the best part of a decade, into going for the A380. Boeing made a similar (but much less costly) mistake with the 748.

But I think the 'broad framework' is now clear. Boeing are in sight of having a four-aeroplane range (737, 787, 772, and 773) range - Airbus have only a range of two, A320 and A330 - with maybe the A350 arriving in a couple of years. I guess we can both agree that the jumbos of both companies are largely irrelevant, neither will ever make a profit.

The key, to my mind, is probably that Boeing went bald-headed for ETOPS, and Airbus just didn't. That led to the 777, and eventually to the 787. From Airbus' viewpoint, it just led to 'denial' in the form of the A340.

Just maybe the A350 will come from behind and 'out-perform' Boeing's offerings, and become a best-seller that 'changes the landscape.' But that doesn't seem likely on present evidence.

[Edited 2011-01-19 06:33:01]
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:34 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 46):
Of course, it can sometimes make sense (in all business fields) to 'reinforce success.' But, to my mind, Airbus have stuck to a 'proven model' (the A3whatever ) for far too long.

Luckily Airbus is managed by capable people.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 46):
Then they made the (to my mind, colossal) mistake of putting all their resources, for the best part of a decade, into going for the A380.

Well my humble opinion is that the A380 is no mistake, looking at the order book and the potential in the next 20 to 30 years as the only passenger VLA on the market.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 46):
Boeing made a similar (but much less costly) mistake with the 748.

So the 748F is a mistake?!

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 46):
737, 787, 772, and 773

The 737 will counter the A320NEO in your informed opinion? And the 772/773 will not in any way be affected by the A350?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 46):
Airbus have only a range of two, A320 and A330 - with maybe the A350

Of course the A380 suddenly does not exsist anymore?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 46):
I guess we can both agree that the jumbos of both companies are largely irrelevant, neither will ever make a profit.

First of all, don't put words in my mouth. Secondly, you couldn't be further from the truth. The 747-8F will play a large role in the cargo market, nothing irrelevant there. Lest you forget Mr NAV20, the A380 currently stands at more than 240 orders. 2011 is just beginning and many are expecting more orders this year. You think that is irrilivant? And talking profit; how can you say that? According to your profile you have quite a live experience behind you. You should know you cannot make statements like that. How does the market work in 10 years? or 20 years? Boeing and Airbus will make hugo amounts of revenue on parts, training, support, maintance, etc.

Saying both these projects will never make a profit is very shortsighted...

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 46):
The key, to my mind, is probably that Boeing went bald-headed for ETOPS, and Airbus just didn't.

Yep, there is no such thing as an ETOPS certified A330 and the A350 will also never be ETOPS. Why are you still stuck in 1995 NAV20? You do know it is 2011 by now?!

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 46):
Sorry mate, did 'shoot from the hip' a bit.

Maybe you should think and research a bit before you post...

[Edited 2011-01-19 06:36:01]
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:48 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 46):
Of course, it can sometimes make sense (in all business fields) to 'reinforce success.' But, to my mind, Airbus have stuck to a 'proven model' (the A3whatever &nbsp  for far too long.

So they should have stopped making commercial airplanes because they've been too successful at it?

Sorry, not following.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 46):
Then they made the (to my mind, colossal) mistake of putting all their resources, for the best part of a decade, into going for the A380.

Projects of that magnitude just can't be paid for with pocket change. That's simply not possible. And manufacturers who are not willing to take on new models will just get left behind in the long run. Simple as that.

And given the actually quite successful sales and operation so far, "collossal mistakes" look quite a bit differently.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 46):
Boeing made a similar (but much less costly) mistake with the 748.

The 747-800, being just a regular derivative instead of a new model, is just a minor project by comparison.

Even the 787 is less challenging than the A380 was, and still it's stressing Boeing to the brink.
 
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RE: Airbus Vs. Boeing: The Politics Of Choice

Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:50 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 41):



Oh dear! You seem to have reverted to type. You've been predicting the imminent demise of Airbus for years. Years ago you claimed the A320 had "stopped selling". You must be very disappointed.

You compare apples and oranges. Despite, in your opinion, Boeing's superior range of offerings, Airbus has the larger backlog.   

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 42):
Just the fact that you think the A300/310/330/340 is one model...



By that token, the 707, 727, 737 and 757 are all the same model since they share a fuselage cross-section.   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!

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