Derico
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Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:29 pm

disclaimer: I will be quoting some forum members. Do not take it personally, I'm only trying to show a pattern here that is somewhat widespread and not reflective of any individual alone.

I open this topic because over the last ten years I have noticed in conversations, forums online (including this one), and in a few other situations, that Argentines always have to be on the defensive from invective directed at us. What do I mean by this. Let me put forth several examples which prove the pattern:


- - - - - - - - -

example a: A topic about Nazism is brought up.

Inevitably, there will be several comments to the tune: ''Maybe Argentina can give them a new home'' or...

''The most-wanted Nazi criminal apparently has been spotted in Argentina last week (some south American countries still haven´t learnt).''
Nazi Criminal Spotted In Argentina (by NA Jul 18 2008 in Non Aviation)?threadid=1943876&searchid=1945965&s=nazi+argentina#ID1945965

Another example

"Despite the numbers of Jews in argentina, the country has a poor track record of coming to their aid. Between the two stories you cite above and their harboring of nazi war criminals, argentina could do much better."

12 Years On: July 18th, 1994 (by MD11junkie Jul 18 2006 in Non Aviation)?
threadid=1301423&searchid=1301453&s=nazi+argentina#ID1301453

Or out of the blue in completely out of topic comments:

''Definately tolerant, they allowed anyone who used to be a Nazi to set up shop escaping the Nuremberg trials.''

Argentina Gaining As World's Most Tolerant Nation (by Derico Aug 15 2005 in Non Aviation)?threadid=906019&searchid=906494&s=nazi+argentina#ID906494

It's always Argentina the one that is ''critiqued'', never other South American countries. Furthermore, how about the USA or Canada? Didn't they turn back a ship full of Jewish refugees? Hasn't there been plenty of anti-semetic groups, militias and hate groups? Didn't the USA government welcome hundreds of nazis to their rank and file... in fact one could argue that the moon landings were largely possible due to Nazi investments in rocketry.

And if you do criticize, then you are anti-this and anti-that. But to freely tell the truth about Argentina's history, OK...

But somehow the USA, and other South American countries are always ''good'' wih the Nazi question and we are shady or anti-semitic (the only country with Kosher McDonalds outside Israel).

- - - - - -

example b: The Falklands and British-Argentine conflicts in the past

Well obviously here, having been the agressors, there is much to criticize. However, let's look at some examples.

"We did no such thing - we just took them, like lots of people used to take lots of land. It is ancient history now - they are ours. If huge sections of the Argentinian population are ready to get out of Argentina and return to their roots, and give their land back to indigenous peoples, then I might start taking their bleatings seriously."

Argentina Gathers Falklands Support (by RussianJet Feb 23 2010 in Non Aviation)?threadid=2191530&searchid=2193106&s=falklands+argentina#ID2193106

So you would assume absolutely no one would be able to take any country in the Western Hemisphere seriously then? I've have seen these comments time and again, that Argentina is somehow hypocritical or even ''evil'' in other comments for it's immigrant and indian policy. Of course the natural answer any argentine would give to another new world citizen or a European whose country was a colonial tyrant is ''look in the mirror''... but if we do that, then we prove our agressiveness.

So we either lose, or we lose. Same thread:

"What the hell is your problem? Why do you hate the EU that much anyway? What did the EU do to you except offend you with its existence?"

This was after I commented that it is possible the European countries also drum up foreign endeavors to rally morale in tough times. This was greeted with disdain from Europeans who said that is impossible. But immediately turned around and acussed Argentina of the exact same when the issue of the Falkand's possible oil was discussed. Basically the equation was ''we don't do that'' but ''you did and we can accuse you of it, but you can't accuse back otherwise you are delirious''.

The insinuation being someone from the third world cannot critique the first, but the other way around is valid. It's a game of ''you have problems so you can't comment on ours... But if we want we can start a thread or comment criticizing you...''... Like that thread.

When I go and answer back, I'm the one who's a bit unreasonable.

There have been dozens of Falklands threads, in which Argentine bashing is rife and expected of course, FAR MORE than you see even the Chinese, or Russians or anyother larger country with more of an effect on 20th century history. You don't here anyone say ''bomb them to the stone age'' or ''you are a failure of a people'', or make derisive racist comments. But when Argentina comes up, it's fair game:

Argentina And Las Malvinas (by Cedars747 Nov 7 2006 in Non Aviation)?threadid=1426621&searchid=1427869&s=argentina+belgrano#ID1427869

So I won't put anymore examples since they are all in the archives for you to see. The sample above is archtypical.

The other interesting thing is that people seem to display more antagonism at Argentina than they would of Spain and Gibraltar, or the Germans, or Russians. It seems those countries are forgiven but Argentines are always crucified with the Falklands, we never get be liberated from the issue.

sidenote: If an Argentine mentiones the drubbing of the British army in the early 1800s, he is told that was ancient history (or that it was the Spanish, when of course it was a milicia that defeated the Brits). Yet, you still see Americans celebrating their victories in their Revolutionary war and no one tells them it's old news... Or the Brits celebrating Trafalgar or the defeat of the Armada. The Spanish still celebrate the Reconquista, heck the Germans celebrate the Black Forest battle and the Italians Roman battles.

But us Argentines, no were ''spanked'' by the British in 82 and that's all the counts. We are not allowed to celebrate our own victories. Anyway...

- - - - - - - -

example c: but even when the issue is not Nazis or the Falklands...

It seem to have been removed, but a few years ago a poster named ANCflyer (otherwise a good guy), entered a thread that someone else had opened about the day of Argentina's independence and his comment was not to wish a happy day but to comment on the sinking of the Belgrano Cruiser. Now he later did apologize, and in fact such comments are commonplace so he is hardly the only one...

But when other country's days are celebrated, you don't see ONE negative comment.

- - - - - -

example d: this one is more restricted to Latin America... but Argentines are quickly accused of being ''racist'' if a comment is taken the wrong way by another Latin American. You see this in virtually every country from Mexico down. Also, while every country in Latin America can show their ''cultural pride'', if Argentines do it, some see it as ''dangerous'', specially when the flag is waved or too many are gathered in one place ''there go those argies, they think they are all that''. There are always sectors that take it the wrong way or assign it ulterior motives.

- - - - - -

example e: Argentina is sometimes accused of cheating in football. Maradona's hand of God. Yet you can't criticize other countries for the same... examples like the 1966 Final where Germany was clearly cheated. Or 2006 where Germany's goalkeeper had an actual cheetsheat with the style of kicking of Argentine penatly scorers. Or how about the Italians diving machine? Or how the Brazilians get the benefit of the call from every referee in world cups?

Somehow those are not cheating, but Argentina is fair game...

- - - - - - -

example f: Argentina's major dictatorship was from 1976 to 1983. There were much longer dictatorships in Chile, Brazil, Uruguay, Bolivia, Paraguay... Yet it is always the Argentine dictatorship that is most mentioned (though in this case Chile's Pinochet is just about an equal), not the Brazilians, not the Paraguayans, not others. Yet Pinochet ruled from 1973 to 1990.

So overall, Argentina has been a democracy longer than most nations, yet we are always canned as dictatorial or the country of the ''Junta''. Which again, given the timescales of the actual duration of the dictatorships, is a blatantly unfair statement.

Yet everyone is fine with that and if an Argentine dares to challenge it with the actual facts, he is living in a dreamworld, lying, or ignrorant.

- - - - - - -


I think the pattern is clear: Everytime a thread *in this website or other) about Argentina's problems or questionable policy surface, you see a barage of negative comments, some outright insulting and degrading by people from many corners of the world If a good thread is opened about something good of Argentina (yes, we actually can have good things in spite the prevailing thought that everything is bad), then you still see some people making ugly comments or bringing up things that had nothing to do with the thread (usually, Falklands/Nazis/Maradona/military juntas/or miscellaneous).

I really hope to comprehend why these latent antagonistic feelings about us exist. Please don't tell me otherwise. I have seen it enough. When has there been a positive thread about Argentina here? It's always been negative. And the rare times a good one is put up (usually by myself or some other native), some people go in to derail the good vibe.

What do you think of Argentina? Why do you think people only focus or mention us on the bad events and never on the good ones? Why do an interesting number of people have to make really nasty comments, beyond what you usually see of countries outside the superpowers?

I want to understand why we are always put down for our bad traits or history, but never given any benefit for anything else. Thank you for your time.



[Edited 2011-01-28 11:56:50]
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:05 pm

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):

I want to understand why we are always put down for our bad traits or history, but never given any benefit for anything else. Thank you for your time.

Dude, seriously, Argentina is far from being the only country getting an unjustified bashing here.

Take Mexico for example. People here are always bashing the country for being a "3rd world wasteland stricken with poverty, disease, famine, and more dangerous than Iraq and Afghanistan combined"            That of course couldn't be farther from the truth.

As they say, you can cure ignorance, but you can't cure stupidity.   
 
Derico
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:14 pm

But Fly2HMO, the current spike in Mexican fearphobia is because of the stupid cartels. Before that I almost never saw a thread about violence in Mexico, ever. Also you have to admit, that there are millions of Mexicans living in the USA and there has always been a border history between the two countries. Given the number of US posters and what I mentioned above, it's somewhat expected even as I'm not saying all of it is justified. It's a long border, a centuries old history and both countries are tied to the hip.

With Argentina is different. Look at the dates, it's always happened, and it happens in Spanish language forums too. Argentines are quickly deemed racist if a comment is not a complement. Yet a a same identical comment by someone else about Argentina is not racist at all. Events that occurred decades ago still provoke quite nasty reactions. And overall, it is Argentines always at fault, yet the same things happen in the countries of those that post the comments and somehow there it was OK (to have Nazis, to wage war, to cheat in football   ) etc.

Again, the point here is that people seem eager to very quickly bash us, for recent or historical actions.

When a Falklands, a Nazi a military junta or other such thread is opened here, it is quickly replied too and tends to go over 100 sometimes even 200 comments.

Yet here people have the opportunity to explain themselves and their feelings and so far it's a slow start, when I know many of those posters that have made such comments are still here and post on a routine basis. Of course I will wait a couple more days, but I'm just saying.
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bhill
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:29 pm

I don't understand your point. If you are keeping score on which nation has/is getting bashed the most...try using the USA in your research next time.....one would begin to think the US cannot do anything right, but it is a big world, SOMEBODY is going to get pissed about something...."But fankly my dear......"
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Derico
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:45 pm

No, If you read carefully I'm keeping tabs on the ration of bashing to complementing.

The USA is the most criticized but also one of the most praised. Same with several other countries. In fact Mexico is bashed more in recent times, but many also ADORE and love Mexico and it's culture, etc.

My point is everytime a thread here or anywhere surfaces about Argentina, there is invective thrown. We are admonished for our shortcommings by people in countries that made the same mistakes, yet if I point it out I'm an anti. Let me elaborate:

Comment 42:

"You tell about "first time better than economic break even in 100 years". That is really great! Keep going! But remember, dear Derico, there is still a long, long way to go to catch up on the previous 99 years. The last thing you need is another 1982-disaster."

Argentina And Las Malvinas (by Cedars747 Nov 7 2006 in Non Aviation)

This poster Prebennorholm, is saying that we were an economic failure for 100 years. Yet somehow that economic failure was from about 1880 to 1955 generally richer than Denmark, Scandinavia, Germany, Southern Europe and I think France too... only the UK was consistently wealthier. So what is he talking about exactly?

Nations have good and bad times in long cycles. Northern Europe overtook Argentina in the 1950s, southern Europe in the 1970s. They had good policies, we had bad ones.

But when economic issues are discussed, somehow we are a failure, no one ever mentions the entire history.

I could well say ''Argentina in 100 years did more than Europe in 3000 to lift it's people out of misery''', if we were in the year 1910... The point is he wasn't correct, and also that what goes around comes around. Who knows, maybe Europe and the USA are in a long term wealth decline now (debt, population aging, etc) and Argentina will surpass many of them again? So because of that Europe's successes should be thrown out??

Just an example of history positive to Argentina being totally ignored, for the sake of a grand generalization border line aloof comment, when the history does not merit this poster (otherwise from what I have read of him a polite person), to say it.

[Edited 2011-01-28 12:46:02]
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baguy
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:56 pm

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
The other interesting thing is that people seem to display more antagonism at Argentina than they would of Spain and Gibraltar, or the Germans, or Russians. It seems those countries are forgiven but Argentines are always crucified with the Falklands, we never get be liberated from the issue.

Forgive me, but perhaps this is because the Falklands involved a full scale military conflict less than 30 years ago. The last major military conflict to do with Gibraltar was in 1779 - not to mention the fact that there was a referendum in Gibraltar to decide whether to return to Spain, but there was an overwhelming majority in favour of retaining British Sovereignty - in the case of the Falklands the Argentinians just invade in the hope of winning it back.

My 2c,

BAguy
 
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yowza
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:57 pm

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
examples

I wouldn't get too worked up over what you see on a.net. The internet is rife with people that take small tidbits and extrapolate them to ridiculous conclusions. The conclusions then get taken, by some, as gospel and perpetuated on forums where the stupidity/misinformation originated. It then snowballs.

Some things to consider:
- most people on this forum haven't been to Argentina and know very little about the country
- other countries, including the US and more recently Canada take a veritable shit-kicking on this forum daily

A look on the positive side: Even though our various Argentine members don't always agree on everything, you always seem to be able to find a middle ground, something Canadian and US member don't seem to be able to do. To me that is something far more important and valuable and worth talking about that nonsensical snipes like the ones you have highlighted.

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Derico
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:02 pm

Quoting baguy (Reply 5):

Forgive me, but perhaps this is because the Falklands involved a full scale military conflict less than 30 years ago. The last major military conflict to do with Gibraltar was in 1779 - not to mention the fact that there was a referendum in Gibraltar to decide whether to return to Spain, but there was an overwhelming majority in favour of retaining British Sovereignty - in the case of the Falklands the Argentinians just invade in the hope of winning it back.

But extending this further out, shoudn't we have those same reactions too? Yet most argentines on this board never have hurled lava at the UK. The otherway around is very common, in fact actually in many cases from non-UK posters, Americans in particular. What's the beef there? Those are things I don't get and would like to know what provokes it.
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Derico
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:05 pm

Quoting yowza (Reply 6):
most people on this forum haven't been to Argentina and know very little about the country

Yet when a topic comes up PLENTY of people answer. In fact many talk about the juntas, Peron, our economic history, the Kirchners, Maradona... So they seem to know very little about a lot! So I can't buy that completely, that there is ignorance involved, because many of the comments seem well thought out and provide historical references even if they are completely wrong in the details or other.
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ImperialEagle
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:31 pm

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Furthermore, how about the USA or Canada? Didn't they turn back a ship full of Jewish refugees? Hasn't there been plenty of anti-semetic groups, militias and hate groups? Didn't the USA government welcome hundreds of nazis to their rank and file... in fact one could argue that the moon landings were largely possible due to Nazi investments in rocketry.

You are so right.
The nazi's could not have succeeded without the help from I.B.M.
Most of the worst anti-semitism we have ever witnessed in the U.S. came from Henry Ford, who in the 1920's and 1930's owned a newspaper called the Dearborn Independent. Both Henry Ford and his editor were vicious nazi sympathizers. For years they printed horrible anti-semetic articles. Too many people in the U.S. at that time that had never met anyone Jewish and it created an atmosphere of hatred. To this day there are many people especially in the "heartland" of the U.S. that are anti-semetic, yet if you ask people, most have never met a Jewish person in their life. All Ford dealerships were instructed by Henry Ford himself to provide copies of the Dearborn Independent with all vehicle sales. Most dealers would just buy them and throw them away out of embarrassment.

I think is was very telling that the only painting on Hitler's wall when he was in Munich in the 1920's was Henry Ford.
The U.S. government was also aware of Ford's overseas sales right on into WWII. Hundreds of tractors and trucks made their way into the nazi's war machine.

To this day most Jewish people old enough to remember the stories passed-down about Ford would NEVER buy a Ford product. The Jews of that generation certainly stopped buying them and when someone at Ford finally showed old Henry how much money he was loosing he suddenly changed his mind. Between that and all the civil lawsuits he was facing by then, he up and sold the paper and fired the staff.

The U.S. Government most certainly did turn it's back and allow many nazi's to move here. Many times the government helped them to cover-up their tracks as long as they would do something constructive to help our Government. The Government paid for their every need to get them moved-in.

None of this is a secret------it's just that our Government does not wish to remind the citizens of this stuff. It being so long ago and all----they would prefer to sweep it under the rug.

BTW, don't get too upset about the opinions of people on this forum. It's not like there are millions of people involved.
There are always a HAND-FULL of people who won't have a kind word to say about anyone or anything. Try not to let it get to you. This web-site should be a fun place, not a nasty place. There are about a dozen or so vicious anti-semites on the site, however the vast majority of people on this site are good people. I don't mind confronting the anti-semites one bit-----but, I don't loose any sleep over them either. Everybody has a right to their opinion---even if they are nobodies.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:49 pm

You guys play a decent game of rugby, you'll get better too with the Pumas joining the Tri-Nations (Four Nations) tournament in 2012.
 
Derico
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:54 pm

Thanks for that. I just want to drive the point this is not a tit for tat. Argentina did a real wrong in providing refuge to genocidals, but throughout the years it seems Argentina is singled out, yet many other countries did the exact same thing. Argentina did not turn away Jewish emigrants in the 1930s and 1940s.

And that's the point, why are we derided but others are not?

I understand that there is a silent majority, as in everything. However, this is a thread years in the making, I have wanted to bring this issue up for a long time. Look at the threads in my OP. The comments in many cases are by otherwise completely rational and amicable, reasonable posters. Yet when commenting about something to do with Argentina, their writing gets significantly more sting to it. You can tell.

And again, people seem eager to quickly jump to our flaws and at the same time overlooking their own, but more importantly, ignoring positive elements of our history or whatever the topic maybe about.
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Derico
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:02 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 10):
You guys play a decent game of rugby, you'll get better too with the Pumas joining the Tri-Nations (Four Nations) tournament in 2012.

Overwhelmingly, Southern Hemisphere cousins (OZ, SA, NZ, Chile, BRA), are far more fair minded and I have seen that too. Perhaps the sporting relationships help. We better get far more impressive to compete with you guys in the 4N, SANZAR being th best rugby on the planet. But that's another matter...

[Edited 2011-01-29 12:49:54 by srbmod]
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Derico
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:12 pm

Prime example: If I make a comment criticizing his country, I'm an anti or intolerant or jealous, but he or any other person complaining about my comments is not insecure.

If I open a topic like this, then I'm insecure.

You've been here for ''almost'' as long... tell me how MANY threads about ''what do you think about fill in the blank for a country'' have there been here over the years? How many US or EU ''what does one think of the other'' threads?? If you apply the lofty standard you applied to me... then your compatriots and Europeans are more sensitive than, well.... certain priest confronted with a choir.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:34 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 4):
This poster Prebennorholm, is saying that we were an economic failure for 100 years. Yet somehow that economic failure was from about 1880 to 1955 generally richer than Denmark, Scandinavia, Germany, Southern Europe and I think France too... only the UK was consistently wealthier. So what is he talking about exactly?

Derico, perhaps you should take more things with a grain of salt and consider the sources.

Last weekend, this guy you're quoting tried to tell us that fuel hedging by airlines was nothing other than a dangerous game of gambling on a grand scale, and had no worthwhile attributes, when in truth it's nothing like that when used as a proper financial planning and risk aversion tool. So I wouldn't exactly take anything he says on economic matters very seriously.

I don't recall anything overwhelmingly negative posted here over the years about Argentina that doesn't have an equal regarding other countries. You will always find ignorant, ill-informed people with a keyboard and internet account. Doesn't mean you have to take any of them seriously.

Perhaps it's time to view some of those posts you've quoted from a different perspective, once you've stood up and gotten some fresh air, maybe grabbed a steak with a good bottle of Malbec too. If that doesn't work, there's always Valium.  
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Derico
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:40 pm

You all make fair points, but this is not even an issue about this website. It's across to others, in other languages too.

That's the reason I for years did not open such a thread, I didn't want to legitimize heat of the moment statemens or ill informed ones. However, again it seems odd that people that seem to know enough about the down moments of Argentina's history or the mishaps of it's society, apparently know nothing about less negative aspects. Given their statements about the bad things, that is hard to believe because it requires some level of informing oneself. And in many cases they look as if they carefully omit or sidestep anything remotely positive.

The Nazi question is prime for that. Yes Argentina harbored Nazis and it will be forever in our shame. It also took in a few hundred thousand Jewish immigrants... that is always ommited for some reason.

[Edited 2011-01-28 14:44:14]
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AeroWesty
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:48 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 16):
However, again it seems odd that people that seem to know enough about the down moments of Argentina's history or the mishaps of it's society, apparently know nothing about less negative aspects.

Perhaps your issue should be with Andrew Lloyd Webber, then. I'd gather that most people only know something about Argentina's history by way of Evita.
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Derico
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:52 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 17):
Perhaps your issue should be with Andrew Lloyd Webber, then. I'd gather that most people only know something about Argentina's history by way of Evita.

No not at all. I really never seen the play anyway. But I don't think they talk much about Galtieri, the Jewish community in Argentina, the 2001 crisis, the Kirchners or Argentina's dubitable football moments...

In fact Evita and Peron are amongst the least discussed here or in other forums.
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AF340
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:05 pm

I love your beef. And my wallet is made from Argentinian leather. Oh, and its the country I would like visit most in South America.

Those are really my only comments on Argentina. Sure there was the Falklands, but let's let bygones be bygones. The whole Nazi thing -- we turned away the SS St. Louis as well. Nobody's perfect, I suppose Argentina tends not to come up in conversation very often and when it does it tends to be about the two subjects above.

I like how you are very passionate about your country, just don't take what people say on here too heavily.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:09 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 16):
it seems odd that people that seem to know enough about the down moments

You will notice that there are a lot of people who want to be "experts" about countries they have never stepped foot in.
Ignore.
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Derico
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:13 pm

Quoting AF340 (Reply 19):
Those are really my only comments on Argentina. Sure there was the Falklands, but let's let bygones be bygones. The whole Nazi thing -- we turned away the SS St. Louis as well. Nobody's perfect, I suppose Argentina tends not to come up in conversation very often and when it does it tends to be about the two subjects above.

You are getting it. It's a matter of quantity and quality. The USA is brought up every day for obvious reasons, so you expect plenty of cheap shots. Canada or Argentina not so much... but Imagine if it was it was always about the Saint Louis, or about clubbing seals?? Which I'm sure does frustrate sometimes.

But Canada is also brought up for it's hockey, for it's pluralism and the like. Point is people seem to look past the past, to pun a pun, but seem to be stuck in a time loop with Argentina.

We all still must love nazis, we all still are warmongers who want to invade the Falklands, we still are ruled with dictators that only have propaganda in mind, we stilll are mired in some sort of economic crisis like a decade ago, we all must love Maradona. It seems people remain stuck in those bad moments when it comes to my country.

[Edited 2011-01-28 15:14:18]

[Edited 2011-01-28 15:14:48]
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TWFirst
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:13 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 17):
Perhaps your issue should be with Andrew Lloyd Webber, then. I'd gather that most people only know something about Argentina's history by way of Evita.

  

I can't wait to view Madonna's body in the glass coffin in Buenos Aires!  
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AeroWesty
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:24 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 21):
We all still must love nazis, we all still are warmongers who want to invade the Falklands, we still are ruled with dictators that only have propaganda in mind, we stilll are mired in some sort of economic crisis like a decade ago, we all must love Maradona. It seems people remain stuck in those bad moments when it comes to my country.

Wow, that's a pretty broad brush to paint the rest of us with. That's not anything near my view of Argentina at all.
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:56 pm

I think the main problems people have with Argentina are the food and lack of culture. The steaks and empanadas are terrible! All that corn fed steroid nonsense. And then the low quality wine which doesn't help at all. You could always help the situation if your country had music and dance, hell, maybe even a few famous writers. But it's an epic failure on all counts on top of being 12 hours by plane from anywhere important. This is why most Argies move to the US, where natural beef, real wine and serious culture are in plentiful supply. I wish we had the same in France!
 
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:01 am

Quoting wingman (Reply 25):
And then the low quality wine which

You are French, I can accept that from you, and maybe the Barolo growers.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:13 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 26):
Yet you fail to expand on ''my attitude''... in your shrill writing, you seem to regard me so little that you don't say directly what is it about my attitude that bothers you.

Derico, I really hope you take this with the intent it's meant, which is in a positive way to help change your mind about a few things.

Do you realize that you're not being open about what others are saying? Anyone with a different POV from your perceptions you're just coming up with a defense for, instead of asking to discuss it or analyzing info that may be new to you.

Look at the comment I made about Evita above. You dismissed it out of hand because it isn't discussed much in the forums you read. Great, okay, I can accept that, I believe it isn't either. BUT, what I said is very true, for a lot of people that's where they get their impression about Argentina from. You know when I first saw the musical in London, I really thought it was going to be about Isabel Peron, the cocktail waitress turned president (that's how little I knew about Argentina from school). I'd no idea who Eva was.

I realize you've been holding onto this chip on your shoulder for a long time, but it's time to let it go. Really, let it go. We're not all out to get Argentina, we just don't know much about it. You have an enormous opportunity to educate people in a non-abrasive way. Take advantage of it.
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:24 am

Aero you and the others are hung up on my thinking you are thinking about my country all the time? I think I know that we are a rather remote and generally quiet newscycle country, that is not involved in many major world affairs and therefore you may bring it up in conversation once every season.

But when it is, you get replies like 777236ER, and I would like to know what drives that. He said it is my attitude. I have been here 10 years but I only post seasonally, when I have time to kill like now. So, he probably has not read much of me, as I don't parcipate in many discussions about Europe or USA either.

So his comment, which obviously he said himself, stems from this topic.

And I can't deny it bothers me, not his answer or what his opinion is because in fact I want to hear MORE, but that's the problem. Look back at the threads I placed in the OP and you see the kind of answer 777236ER: shrill and disdainful, because of the lack of specifics.

Like how you talk to a child, quite frankly. Without much expanding on why you think the way you do.

That is what I want to get down to, not to change people's mind, everyone can hate me or us for all I care. But at least I want to know why. Again, if it's something NEW it would be good to know so I can perhaps change and tell others the same.

If it's the same old things from the past mentioned above, then I want to know why we are held perpetually to them.
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:33 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 29):
If it's the same old things from the past mentioned above, then I want to know why we are held perpetually to them.

Then ask, simply ask. Engage these people in intelligent discourse about what you're perceiving from their posts. To be honest, you won't always get a quality response—that's just the way the internet is, and you, along with the rest of us, have to live with that. Let it go if it happens, but I'll bet you that slowly by surely, you'll begin to find people who will discuss these issues with you. Letting this chip on your shoulder fester over the years clearly isn't getting you where you want, so it's time to change tack.
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:40 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 30):
Engage these people in intelligent discourse about what you're perceiving from their posts

I just did, and have for years and I rarely get an answer. I'm still waiting for one here.

You haven't seen anyone yet, like I mentioned, look back at the topics about the Falklands or Nazis, or even Maradona sometimes. They get TONS of answers from a cross section of this forum. Here in this thread at the moment virtually all of you are the ''polite and educated'' type. Those that genuinely enjoy talking or traveling thus you generally show positive attitudes towards other countries.

I appreciate that (though I would also want honesty above all else from people as yourself and not just praise, that is not the point and counterproductive anyway), but I want to hear from those you read in the threads I posted. there are plenty of those posters still here. But if they just remain silent how can one learn?

[Edited 2011-01-28 16:41:40]
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:58 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 31):
I want to hear from those you read in the threads I posted. there are plenty of those posters still here.

I looked up some of those posts. I found you quoted comments from people who haven't been active for 3 - 5 years in some cases. I wouldn't hold my breath looking for them to find this thread and respond.

The other impression I got was that they were more of a hit-and-run type of post—the exact type you should either dismiss out of hand or not dwell on if you don't get further discourse from the authors. A lot of commentary on the internet falls into these two categories.
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:11 am

First it was your strange "Palestinians being deported to Argentina or Chile or whatever" thread, now this thread. I haven't heard anything bad about Argentina (in fact, I haven't heard much at all about them.) As others have posted, some countries have taken brutal beatings, I don't see where this thread is going, just some overreacting
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:25 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):
First it was your strange "Palestinians being deported to Argentina or Chile or whatever" thread, now this thread. I haven't heard anything bad about Argentina (in fact, I haven't heard much at all about them.) As others have posted, some countries have taken brutal beatings, I don't see where this thread is going, just some overreacting

So, why is it not overreacting when many US posters or Europans here take offense to my statements... Again, on top of the fact I don't participate in 99% of those threads. But when I do, I get met with heated complaining. Isn't that overreacting a bit...?



I still don't get it: everyone tells me they don't care, but if one of the topics above are opened periodically, they go above 100 replies. For a country no one knows ore cares about. And in spite of what 777236ER said, that it's my attitude (in a hit and run comment btw), those threads are usually well underway when I see them, since I don't sit at this site every day normally.

So what then, do the trolls just coincidentally decide to come out? Something does not compute... Which leads to:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 32):
The other impression I got was that they were more of a hit-and-run type of post—the exact type you should either dismiss out of hand or not dwell on if you don't get further discourse from the authors

So, what is it about Argentina that causes that flushing of hit and runs by a significant number of posters? Because it isn't just one or two.

[Edited 2011-01-28 17:27:34]
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usflyer msp
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:32 am

I like Argentina, I have been there twice. It is a beautiful place and most Argentines are truly nice people.

However, my peeves with Argentina are a tendency by some Argentines to think they are superior to other people in Latin America because Argentina is so "European" and "chic" and the tendency of most Argentines to fail to acknowledge the genocide committed against Argentinas Aboriginal and (especially) African populations. How exactly does a country go from being 35% black to being less than 2% black in less than 100 years? Obviously noting is going to bring those people back but it would be nice if it was acknowledged.

Back to the topic, I really don't think Argentina gets bashed more than any other country on A-net, I think you are just a little too sensitive.
 
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:43 am

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 35):
However, my peeves with Argentina are a tendency by some Argentines to think they are superior to other people in Latin America because Argentina is so "European" and "chic" and the tendency of most Argentines to fail to acknowledge the genocide committed against Argentinas Aboriginal and (especially) African populations. How exactly does a country go from being 35% black to being less than 2% black in less than 100 years? Obviously noting is going to bring those people back but it would be nice if it was acknowledged.

Thanks for your reply. See this is what I want specific.

This is obviously as old an issue as the country itself post Rosas. It was after the Rosas presidency that the ''Civilizing or barbarism'' policy of Sarmiento took effect, which called for millions of European immigrants, the War with Paraguay, the extermination of Indians to expand the frontier south and west, etc, etc. It is only in the last 20 years being acknowledged though it is far from recognized, though progress is being made specially with the afro-argentine question which has always been a supposed great mystery.

Though in reality it is not, many blacks left for Uruguay, many more died in the Paraguay War, and the rest simply were genetically swamped by 7 million white europeans. Today some studies suggest 3% of the population has significant black ancestry and another 10-15% some fainter ascendency.

But this is what I want, and open and honest dialogue.

Sly comments with no substance get us nowhere. Cheers.

[Edited 2011-01-28 17:45:11]
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:46 am

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
I open this topic because over the last ten years I have noticed in conversations, forums online (including this one), and in a few other situations, that Argentines always have to be on the defensive from invective directed at us.

Do you know how many people demonize the US on these forums on a daily basis ? Rule number one about the internet is that there many morons out there who post incendiary comments just to try get a reaction. Just ignore them.

Who cares what people think of your country. You know the truth . Do I get worked up about people who have launched anti-american tirades on these forums over the years ? No, because I know that they are idiots who would never dare say such ignorant things in public........
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:53 am

Quoting alberchico (Reply 37):
Do you know how many people demonize the US on these forums on a daily basis ? Rule number one about the internet is that there many morons out there who post incendiary comments just to try get a reaction. Just ignore them.

As I mention above, how many people PRAISE the USA too? I have seen it many times.

When a Nazi thread popes up, everyone jumps on our case. They never mention the Jewish life that does exist in Argentina. When a Falkland thread comes up, they treat the current Argentina the same as that in 1982, like the current government will reinvade or something. Basically they are insinuating there is no democracy.

When independence threads are opened I don't recall people bringing up Saigon or the World Trade Center, for example. Yet the one year someone did open one about our independence, there were no less than three bad comments. Again, for a country no one cares about it does seem to bring out the trolls or the ''little troll in many of us''.
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ronglimeng
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:18 am

Jeez, I was just on vacation for a week and I took along Paul Theroux's "The Old Patagonian Express" to re-read.

Back in the late 70s Mr. Theroux travelled from Boston by train all the way down to Esquel in Argentina observing and recording as he rode along . Part of the way down, he was cautioned by a US Embassy official, I think it was in Peru, that when dealing with the South American Latins: "Don't criticize them, they hate to be criticized". Mr. Theroux found that advice to be useful, particularly in Argentina I think.

I finished the book again yesterday and today I see this thread which sort of immediately confirms what I've read.

Derico, I think you're exhibiting a very high level of sensitivity. You make your point and then come back again after almost every reply. I don't think I've seen such a high ratio of poster replies to reader comments in a long time.

Did you read that book Derico? I'd be interested in what you thought of it.
 
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:26 am

I thought it was slightly ethnocentric, he praised his arrival to europeanized Argentina, and also almost defended the dictatorship because everything actually ''functioned'', suggesting they could not in it's absence. Things function today too (more or less) in an open democracy with tons of media, women in government, gay rights, and complete religious tolerance. Otherwise an interesting read.

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 39):
I finished the book again yesterday and today I see this thread which sort of immediately confirms what I've read.

I think North Americans and Europeans are more sensitive. Every time I say something that questions how Americans or Europeans do things I get attacked personally, or mostly just told to run out of town.

Edit: the point of me replying to everyone is because I am INTERSTED in what you have to say. I guess that's bad...

Check my profile, there are tons of topics I have opened over the years some even controversial, where after my opening OP and maybe another reply I didn't go back. The topic went on to have many answers and I didn't reply to them.

No one then ever told me I had a super tough skin.

[Edited 2011-01-28 18:29:03]
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:31 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 34):
So, why is it not overreacting when many US posters or Europans here take offense to my statements... Again, on top of the fact I don't participate in 99% of those threads. But when I do, I get met with heated complaining. Isn't that overreacting a bit...?

OK, I want to avoid pointless bickering. I'll say this once and not post any more (unless you really want me to answer a question by you.)

1. I've heard Argentina is a nice country. I haven't heard ANYTHING negative about it (not much period.)

2. Can't speak about you personally (I never really see you much on the forums.) But the US and EU get massacred on this forums. I cannot believe how much flack they receive. I do not think anyone is trying to deny you your right to post. I don't know, maybe you're posting over the top comments. But when you make statements in a diverse forum like this, you'll probably get called names/yelled at/etc. I've seen way more negativity towards the US and EU than positive.

That's all I gotta say. I respect your opinion, just don't really see where you're coming from...
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:59 am

Well, I went to EZE, and there are beautiful men there, great hotels, great food, crappy airport, awesome architecture, much like Paris, beautiful city, great gay scene, I have nothing against Argentina except for that new reciprocity fee, and of course, Ezeiza.

So, praise praise praise.
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:01 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 41):
But the US and EU get massacred on this forums. I cannot believe how much flack they receive

And you also read every single day in those US - EU threads accusations back and forth of ''you are anti-US'' or ''you are anti-EU'', how many times have we read that? More than there are days in the year.

Isn't that being ultra-sensitive... Some flings a criticism about a certain policy or way of doing things and so many take it as an attack on their whole society.

Argentines, and in this one Latin Americans more broadly, take criticism all the time on top of massive misconceptions. If you as Americans or Europeas on top of the flack were also grossly caricatured, I don´t want to think what would happen!
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:50 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 38):
Again, for a country no one cares about it does seem to bring out the trolls or the ''little troll in many of us''.
Quoting Derico (Reply 43):
If you as Americans or Europeas on top of the flack were also grossly caricatured, I don´t want to think what would happen!

Many Europeans do make very broad assumptions about American culture and its way of life and Americans do the same with them. Its generally due to a lack of education and the way things are portrayed in the media. Look at how deeply divided the politics in this country is. How liberals assume all tea party members are racist hypocrites and how conservatives think Obama is moving toward socialism and putting this country on a path to destruction with massive spending and borrowing. Even we end up caricaturing each other, which is why this country will remain so deeply divided.

But to what you were saying Argentina generally enjoys a favorable view among Americans. They see it as a beautiful country with a Euro style capital, the home of tango, delicious beef, home of the best soccer players in history, and as the best that South America has to offer. During the world cup here in NYC do you know how many people were walking around proudly wearing a Messi Argentine team shirt ? Practically every sporting store in the city had one and they were flying off the shelves, far outselling the USA Men's team shirts

[Edited 2011-01-28 22:52:19]

[Edited 2011-01-28 22:55:26]

[Edited 2011-01-28 22:55:50]
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:32 am

Hey Derico, relax a bit and take a deep breath.

In my view Argentina is a fantastic place, however just because I might consider it fantastic it does not have some major historic and current problems. (just as the US, or many other countries)

However in many ways, those problems are getting worse with time. For example I recall reading the Economist a few months back and it made a statement that as time goes on Argentina was slipping backwards and becoming ever more irrelevant and a 2nd rate Latin American nation. Where once Argentina was the star in South America, its slipped economically and politically to your neighboors.
Another funny quote I read was by your own president only two weeks ago on her visit to Turkey. She made a joke that unfortunately all Argentina could offer trade wise to Turkey was many many tons of beef. Go back in 20, 30, 40 years ago Argentina could offer all types of goods and knowledge to the world market, and today must go back to trying to make agrarian sales.

So I dont know, maybe pointing out the faults hurt. Instead I guess you should channel your energy with your countrymen to advance the nation, not stand still, or worse slip backwards. The good news will far outweigh the bad.
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:57 am

Argentina is indeed given a rough ride. I see the following historical reasons all of which reflect poorly on Argentina and encourage the dissing and lack of respect for Argentina. Arguably, deservedly:
1. 100 years ago Argentina had the world's highest standard of living due to farming, beef exports and was a magnet for Italian and German immigration. In the decades to follow, Argentina blew it with successions of dictators and economic mismanagement which has made Argentina an economic basket case (of which there are many) and a wasted opportunity. Not good.
2. The dirty war in the 60's -70's human rights abuses and many disappearances. Not good.
3. The silly invasion of the Falklands, islands that are clearly 100% British. Not a good idea.
4. The recent (1980's plus) economic dynamism of Chile, while Argentina stumbles from crisis to crisis. Not good.
5. The recent (1990's plus) economic dynamism of Brazil, while Argentina stumbles from crisis to crisis. Not good.
6. The silly antics of Maradona (the man the world sees as Mr Argentina). Not good.
7. The shameful legacy of the Peron family and their disasterous rule and impact on Argentina. Not good.

All 7 of these reasons serve to make Argentina a historical and modern day laughing stock to the world.
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:01 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 38):
As I mention above, how many people PRAISE the USA too? I have seen it many times.

It doesn't happen often on this forum  
 
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:16 am

Quoting baguy (Reply 5):
Forgive me, but perhaps this is because the Falklands involved a full scale military conflict less than 30 years ago. The last major military conflict to do with Gibraltar was in 1779 - not to mention the fact that there was a referendum in Gibraltar to decide whether to return to Spain, but there was an overwhelming majority in favour of retaining British Sovereignty - in the case of the Falklands the Argentinians just invade in the hope of winning it back.

Both those examples are nothing more than the death throes of the british "empire", the Falkland thing little more than a political stunt by an unpopular PM and the Gibraltar issue is much of the same populism.

The UK pours money into Gibraltar just to make certain nationalists happy, but it is really crazy - policy wise - because the UK can't nor will ever be the final administrator of that SPANISH land.

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photopilot
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:10 pm

Coño!!! Get a little thicker skin. I'm Canadian but choose to use the "Cuba" country and flag for personal reasons. I get lots of crap from some people over this. Do I care? Not in the slightest. I can't believe the OP actually tracks how many time a particular country is mentioned, then determines if he thinks it's a negative or positive mention.

Oh well, some people appear to have too much time on their hands.
 
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:44 pm

Thanks for the answers. May I submit to you, that while I find the economic policy of our current government schitzophrenic, the ''financial'' media has conned and lied to you all completely as well. They have been in a decade long propaganda campaign against Argentina. I know its sounds a bit crazy, but you have not followed them like I and many others have and it's true. Specifically the following: The Economist, The Financial Times, and Bloomberg. Notice how I don't include the Wall Street Journal.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 45):
Another funny quote I read was by your own president only two weeks ago on her visit to Turkey. She made a joke that unfortunately all Argentina could offer trade wise to Turkey was many many tons of beef. Go back in 20, 30, 40 years ago Argentina could offer all types of goods and knowledge to the world market, and today must go back to trying to make agrarian sales.

I don't know what product Argentina offered back in the 1970s or 1980s that it does not offer now, LAX. I think you took a joke of the President as some statement of fact. That is a very common joke in Argentina, that all we offer to the world is beef... it's a statement on what the REST of the world thinks of us, not an actual description on what is actually offered.

Argentina is the worlds biggest maker of unsowed steel tubes (ACINDAR). It has the world's largest hydroelectric builder and research company (IMPSA), in my province Mendoza actually. It has one of the world's most tecnologically advanced satellite developer, buider and tester company outside NASA or the Jet Propulsion LAB (INVAP), in fact NASA, Brazil, ESA at times test their satellites there! COCINET is a major nuclear reactor builder in the world, with built units in places like Egypt, Australia, Malaysa, etc. I invite you to research them... Financial Times doens't tell you about them now does it??

It has come roaring back and in 2010 in fact broke in to the top 15 or 20 countries in automobile manufacturing production. It is the world's 2nd or 3rd largest exporter of advertising productions (tv adds, etc) after the USA and depending on the year ahead or behind the UK. In fact many of the tv spots you probably see are ideas from a BA production or actually filmed in Buenos Aires.

Tourism is booming, the industry without chimneys as we call it. That is bringing tons of development to many remote areas. How about wine? 15 years ago Argentina was 10th in world exports. This year it may surpass Chile to be 4th behind France, Italy and Australia. The money being poured in to the wine region is in the hundreds of millions, and I see this myself in Mendoza.
Fine Leather products and fashion clothing is booming at an incredible rate. Organic farming is coming on... and how about Mining?? The wealth being produced there is incredible in places like San Juan province and that is an industry that is in diapers... ask anyone in the mining field about Argentina's future. Argentina has the largest presence of internet companies and domains on the internet in Spanish, with software exports among those too.

While everyone talked about the Falklands Oil spat, a massive natural gas field was discovered in Neuquen by YPF.

And I coudd go on and on and on.

Where are the financial publications telling you about those??? There is a lot of progress going on, IN SPITE of the government. Indeed, the areas where the government has it's hands on (beef, wheat and the airline industry), are the ones that are the most lagging. But since the beef and wheat are so associated with Argentina, people make the assumption that the problems and fighting there between farmers and gov must be reflectived of the rest of the industries or economies in the country. I invite you to research all the industries above or ask another argentine about what is going on in mining, tourism, service sectors like tv production, the wine industry, etc, etc...

You and me probably agree 99% on economics. And it's obvious: the areas where the government is restricting are suffering (the now called ''classic economy'' of beef, wheat, corn exporting), but just do simple google search on Argentina and wine, mining, tourism, video production, internet, hydroelectric, satellite technology, you will see a picture that they were hiding from you.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 45):
For example I recall reading the Economist a few months back and it made a statement that as time goes on Argentina was slipping backwards and becoming ever more irrelevant and a 2nd rate Latin American nation. Where once Argentina was the star in South America, its slipped economically and politically to your neighboors.

Hi, I hope you realize they make opinion, not facts. Isn't it funny how they say those things but never give any speficic facts or figures?

We are irrelevant to the world banking establishement and as a financial stock investment, yes. Argentina does not neef to borrow from world markets (both because of high rates that are restrictive to it, and it actually does run a fiscal surplus). Isn't it funny how you never hear from them that this country is not running a deficit for almost a decade? As much as I can't stand the populist maneuvers of the K's, that has been something to hightlight. Do you read that in the financial publications? But most people in Argentina see that as a good thing, as do I. I rather live within my means than be borrowing.

Argentine tourism is a back bone for the ''stars'' Chile, Uruguay, Brazil and lo a lesser extent Peru. How is that possible if we are slipping and slipping? The ''argentine tourist'' is still the lifeblood of Chile, the Brazilian riviera, Punta del Este, etc ,etc. 2nd rate power lifting up the stars???  

Thank you for bringing this up I had forgotten about this. The complete lies and propaganda those three publications have uttered since 2002. All you need to know about their ''fairness'' to Argentina is that for 5 years (2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006), they predicted negative GDP growth for the country, even some sort of civil war. They gave up prognosticating that after 5 years of 9% growth, quietly.

There is no doubt that this government needs to go in place for one that relaxes export restrictions and is not so standoffish against foreign investment. But I can assure you that if you read FT, The Economist, and Bloomberg you will get a complete distortion, sadly. They have sound economic critiques to make, but they go off the rails with Argentina.

Which brings me too.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 46):
Argentina is indeed given a rough ride. I see the following historical reasons all of which reflect poorly on Argentina and encourage the dissing and lack of respect for Argentina. Arguably, deservedly:
1. 100 years ago Argentina had the world's highest standard of living due to farming, beef exports and was a magnet for Italian and German immigration. In the decades to follow, Argentina blew it with successions of dictators and economic mismanagement which has made Argentina an economic basket case (of which there are many) and a wasted opportunity. Not good.
2. The dirty war in the 60's -70's human rights abuses and many disappearances. Not good.
3. The silly invasion of the Falklands, islands that are clearly 100% British. Not a good idea.
4. The recent (1980's plus) economic dynamism of Chile, while Argentina stumbles from crisis to crisis. Not good.
5. The recent (1990's plus) economic dynamism of Brazil, while Argentina stumbles from crisis to crisis. Not good.
6. The silly antics of Maradona (the man the world sees as Mr Argentina). Not good.
7. The shameful legacy of the Peron family and their disasterous rule and impact on Argentina. Not good.

All 7 of these reasons serve to make Argentina a historical and modern day laughing stock to the world.

I think you hit it on the nail. I'll answer in the next post.



[Edited 2011-01-29 10:40:01]
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yyz717
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:45 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 48):
the Falkland thing little more than a political stunt by an unpopular PM and the Gibraltar issue is much of the same populism.

The Falklands are British islands populated by Britons who chose (and choose) to remain British.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 48):
The UK pours money into Gibraltar just to make certain nationalists happy, but it is really crazy - policy wise - because the UK can't nor will ever be the final administrator of that SPANISH land.

Gibraltar has chosen democratically to remain British. They do not wish to become Spanish. An inconvenient truth for Spaniards, but a truth nonetheless.
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RE: Why Is Argentina Never Given The Benefit?

Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:10 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 46):
ina is indeed given a rough ride. I see the following historical reasons all of which reflect poorly on Argentina and encourage the dissing and lack of respect for Argentina. Arguably, deservedly:
1. 100 years ago Argentina had the world's highest standard of living due to farming, beef exports and was a magnet for Italian and German immigration. In the decades to follow, Argentina blew it with successions of dictators and economic mismanagement which has made Argentina an economic basket case (of which there are many) and a wasted opportunity. Not good.
2. The dirty war in the 60's -70's human rights abuses and many disappearances. Not good.
3. The silly invasion of the Falklands, islands that are clearly 100% British. Not a good idea.
4. The recent (1980's plus) economic dynamism of Chile, while Argentina stumbles from crisis to crisis. Not good.
5. The recent (1990's plus) economic dynamism of Brazil, while Argentina stumbles from crisis to crisis. Not good.
6. The silly antics of Maradona (the man the world sees as Mr Argentina). Not good.
7. The shameful legacy of the Peron family and their disasterous rule and impact on Argentina. Not good.

All 7 of these reasons serve to make Argentina a historical and modern day laughing stock to the world.

Point 1. Big ONE,

It does prove my point doesn't...

Is Russia, China, India, Brazil murdered today in financial literature or just general perception for the fact that the for the most part squandered the entire 20th century? Is Europe still blasted today for it's recurrent self-destructions prior to 1950? Argentina actually did progress, they did not until late in the century... But it's Argentina that's maligned and not the lack of development of those countries. Same with Latin America, so now Chile and Brazil are stars. Guess who was the darling of the FT and co in the 1990s?? Yup... So I woudn't take much stock in which countries they consider first rate or not.

Argentina's ''fall'' was a combination of other countries coming back and her slipping. Back in the first half of the 1900s, Argentina was 15% of the population of Latin America but 55% of it's Gross Domestic Product. Over half. That was unsustainable regardless. The other countries had to develop.

For example, back in 1950 the United States was 52% of World's GDP!! But Europe and Russia were in shambles, Japan was still a small economy, China and India were nonexistant, Latin America a sleeping beauty. Today the United States barely 20% of the world's GDP...

Is the United States a failure?? No, other countries economies have gotten much bigger, and also more populated. With all this, I'm saying Argentina deserves blame for it's misteps, but you can't expect Argentina in today's world to go back to being 50% of Latin America's GDP, the 6th largest economy in the WORLD, or otherwise it's a failure. That is a completely unfair expetcation just from a population base (40 million)... This is perhaps the most often made unrealistic expectation against Argentina.

No other country in the world is so saddled with it's supposed glorious past. How about letting that go everyone? Just like Europe, Russia, China, and the rest of Latin America are not reminded constantly about their failures. There is always a new opportunity.

Argentina is bashed because it actually succeeded but slipped, more than those that had never succeeded at all in reducing poverty!! And regardless... Millions of people were lifted out of poverty by this country in the 20th century, in spite of everything. Only the USA, Canada, Australia can say that. I say this because I want to show how we can spin things positively too, yet that is not done with Argentina. It's always spun negatively!!

Point 2: Those military people are being held accountable now in fact. Yet does Argentina get any credit like South Africa for example? No.

Point 4 and 5: Chile is exemplory, I don't think any country can match them to be honest. That is not speaking bad about the other countries, but good on Chile. They do have huge inequality problems though, which the financial media also seems to obviate. Brazil is a huge country and for that their stability is also quite commendable, but they did have a major crisis in the late 1990s. And again, economic dynamism according to who?? The FT, Economist just label as dynamic whom closest follows their line of thinking. Argentina was dynamic to them in the 1990s... I don't take stock at all in that. That is not to say Chile and Brazil are not advancing, they are right there. They are however totally unfair to Argentina, because it's government does get in the banking world's eye. Simple as that.

Point 7: Again, when do we let that go??

Should the French still be hanged by Europe for Napoleon? The Germans for Hitler? The United States in the 1800s for genocide on the indians and provoking a pretense war against Mexico and later Spain for the sake of imperialist aspirations? I mean at what point does one say ''that's history''??

Modern Argentina: a pluralistic democracy, vibrant media, culture, women across all fields of endeavors achieving high levels of equality, gay rights, improving environmentalism, humanitarian (extremely so) with illegal immigrants... How come those are not highlighted by the publications either.

My original OP is validated thus... by many posters but more eloquently by yyz717: Argentina for some reason is perpetually held randsom to it's past.

I guess none of you can answer this, but... WHY?

[Edited 2011-01-29 10:19:35]
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