SA7700
Topic Author
Posts: 2930
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:29 am

This is a continuation thread of part 1, which can be found here: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 1)

Please feel free to continue your discussion on this topic in this thread.


Rgds,

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:22 pm

Thank you for opening the new thread.

The situation at El Tahrir Square looks quiet at the moment but it is only a matter of time until things could get violent again.

Strangely, we see no more live images from Alexandria or Suez or other cities in Egypt. There have been very voolent clashes in the se other cities but we only get see and hear about Cairo at least on the AlJazeera in Engliish channel.

 
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
mandala499
Posts: 6461
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:26 pm

At least the army is now putting up a bigger buffer zone between the anti and pro crowds.

Let's hope the next time something happens they'll jump in quicker to separate the 2 crowds...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2556
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:46 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 2):
At least the army is now putting up a bigger buffer zone between the anti and pro crowds.

Let's hope the next time something happens they'll jump in quicker to separate the 2 crowds...



Let's tell it as it is and not repeat government propaganda: there are no "pro-crowds"; only demonstrators and government and associated establishment mafia paid thugs and plain clothed security forces. These are also the only people who stand to gain by a prolongation of the current regime.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
directorguy
Posts: 1066
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:58 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:04 pm

In response to posts in the last thread:

1. Mohamed El Baradei is so far one of the few public figures whose names have been tied to the presidential elections. I think that it is not too late for him to turn things around, but he must make a real connection with the media and the public now that the initial novelty has worn off. A has-been who I think can safely be written off is Ayman Nour.
2. The escapee in Lebanon is a new development that needs to be closely monitored.
3. There ARE some legit. pro-Mubarak protesters. Some genuinely believe he has served the country well (mostly upper-class people who have done well under him). Some believe that he's done his bit by saying that he won't run again in the summer and want to normalize life and get Egypt back on its feet and that Mubarak can be tolerated for another few months. Then you have NDP-hired thugs who'd chant 'Christina Aguilera for President' if you give them a Chicken Supreme and some money. Sadly there are a lot of said thugs.
4. Tomorrow is the so-called 'Friday of departure' and is expected to be a significant showdown.
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:15 pm

I am watching live images of the situation in Cairo on AlJazeera in English on the Internet.

They are cosntantly talking about the "pro-democracy" and "pro-Mubarak" protesters.
For AlJazeera English, the pro-Mubarak are the bad guys. The "pro-democracy" are the good guys.

A great number of anti-Mubarak protesters are from the Muslim Brothers camp.
How can their commentators/correspondents consider the Muslim Brotherhood to be "pro-democracy"?

   Wow!
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
mandala499
Posts: 6461
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:41 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 3):
Let's tell it as it is and not repeat government propaganda: there are no "pro-crowds"; only demonstrators and government and associated establishment mafia paid thugs and plain clothed security forces. These are also the only people who stand to gain by a prolongation of the current regime.

By saying those "dubious crowds" claiming to be pro-Mubarak crowds as "mafia paid thugs" means you're extending the mouth of the government. *Just kidding*

Well, whoever that crowd is... needs to be kept away from the square...

Quoting directorguy (Reply 4):
3. There ARE some legit. pro-Mubarak protesters. Some genuinely believe he has served the country well (mostly upper-class people who have done well under him). Some believe that he's done his bit by saying that he won't run again in the summer and want to normalize life and get Egypt back on its feet and that Mubarak can be tolerated for another few months. Then you have NDP-hired thugs who'd chant 'Christina Aguilera for President' if you give them a Chicken Supreme and some money. Sadly there are a lot of said thugs.

Now... nothing new on that one is there (unfortunately).

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 5):
A great number of anti-Mubarak protesters are from the Muslim Brothers camp.
How can their commentators/correspondents consider the Muslim Brotherhood to be "pro-democracy"?

Currently... anyone anti-Mubarak in Egypt = pro-democracy... *strange eh?*

Quoting directorguy (Reply 4):
4. Tomorrow is the so-called 'Friday of departure' and is expected to be a significant showdown.

Looks like I'll be watching the TV again tomorrow night!   

Stay safe Omar!
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 10159
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:50 pm

Quoting directorguy (Reply 4):
1. Mohamed El Baradei is so far one of the few public figures whose names have been tied to the presidential elections. I think that it is not too late for him to turn things around, but he must make a real connection with the media and the public now that the initial novelty has worn off.

Al Baradei is a lying bastard who would hand power over to the MB as soon as he has the chance.

As I said in another thread, Egypt under Mubarak was certainly not heaven, but it may quickly be going to hell. Mubarak at least kept the peace with Israel - the first Egyptian president in modern times who did not start a war. He made the Egyptian tourist industry grow by leaps and bounds, in spite of Islamist attempts at weakening it, and tourism generates a sizable percentage of the Egyptian GDP. Many protestors are demanding freedom, yes, but "Freedom to destroy Israel"?

The only reason the Palestinians have the autonomy they have today, such as it is, is because Israel felt comfortable enough that their two major Arab neighbors, Jordan and Egypt, would not attack them again. If that goes away, you can say goodbye to any positive developments for the Palestinians.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
futurepilot16
Posts: 1756
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:16 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 3):
Let's tell it as it is and not repeat government propaganda: there are no "pro-crowds"; only demonstrators and government and associated establishment mafia paid thugs and plain clothed security forces. These are also the only people who stand to gain by a prolongation of the current regime.

I'm sorry, but without any proof, you're just spreading blatant propaganda. You don't think there could be pro Mubarak supporters in Egypt? Mind you, these are the same protesters who claimed that Mubarak told the police not to show up and told the military to stay away from civilians so that lawlessness could spread....in some convoluted attack purported by Mubarak and his regime   . I guess they don't realize that the rocks and Molotov cocktails that they threw at the police and military MIGHT have had something to do with them not showing up. I'm sorry but what crap these anti-gov't supporters spew out of their mouth means nothing. They had the choice of protesting peacefully, but I guess they thought that would not have sent the right message, so now they've thrown their country into chaos.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Egypt under Mubarak was certainly not heaven, but it may quickly be going to hell.

I agree and disagree. It might not have been heaven, but it takes a lot more than just ousting a so-called "dictator" out of power to make your country financially powerful in the world. That's what I agree on. I disagree in the sense that yes...this was a quasi-dictatorial regime, and the fact that Mubarak wanted to hand power over to his son upon his retirement....well there was something wrong with that, very wrong. I understand that the US is in between a rock and a hard place because they have a great relationship with Egypt, but it's very biased and I don't think Egypt should be a one man dictatorship because he is OUR dictator, that is just wrong and not what we stand for.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
directorguy
Posts: 1066
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:58 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:46 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 5):
A great number of anti-Mubarak protesters are from the Muslim Brothers camp.
How can their commentators/correspondents consider the Muslim Brotherhood to be "pro-democracy"?
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
As I said in another thread, Egypt under Mubarak was certainly not heaven, but it may quickly be going to hell. Mubarak at least kept the peace with Israel - the first Egyptian president in modern times who did not start a war. He made the Egyptian tourist industry grow by leaps and bounds, in spite of Islamist attempts at weakening it, and tourism generates a sizable percentage of the Egyptian GDP. Many protestors are demanding freedom, yes, but "Freedom to destroy Israel"?

On paper, it looks like Mubarak achieved 'a lot' for Egypt. But not really. The tourism market in my opinion, is severely underdeveloped. The overwhelming majority of tourists go to Sharm/Hurghada. Only a relatively small portion get to see what Egypt is famous for. Not to jinx their good fortune, but a city like Dubai gets far more tourism than an entire country like Egypt. As for the 'opening' of the economy and so-called 'foreign investment'. The average Egyptian sees nothing of these things. Instead, some foreign multi-national teams up with an Egyptian investment group and that's basically it. It does not trickle down to the average Egyptian. And the benefits of such things (malls, better airports, global brands) only started kicking in a good 15-20 years after Mubarak came to power. Such things then led to an increasingly commercialized consumer culture that has set unattainable goals for so many.
To summarise, the Mubarak era=30 years of wasted potential.

As for Mubarak 'preserving' peace with Israel. You call that peace? He failed to normalize relations with Israel. We got the Sinai back and in exchange, all they got was an apartment in Maadi to call an embassy. No culture links, no trade links, nothing. Of course, the regime's failure to normalize relations undermined the land-for-peace program, which means that Israel sees no real reason to give up land for a Palestinian state. Again, I see golden opportunities wasted.

Of course, that's to say nothing of the crappy urban planning, the badly planned new cities that Egyptians have been putting up with for so long.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 8):
I agree and disagree. It might not have been heaven, but it takes a lot more than just ousting a so-called "dictator" out of power to make your country financially powerful in the world. That's what I agree on. I disagree in the sense that yes...this was a quasi-dictatorial regime, and the fact that Mubarak wanted to hand power over to his son upon his retirement....well there was something wrong with that, very wrong. I understand that the US is in between a rock and a hard place because they have a great relationship with Egypt, but it's very biased and I don't think Egypt should be a one man dictatorship because he is OUR dictator, that is just wrong and not what we stand for.

People overestimate Mubarak's abilities as a 'reliable' ally of the US, IMHO. I feel that it wouldn't be impossible for the US to establish a good working relationship with a hypothetical different president in Egypt. US foreign policy in the Middle East assumed that if the US supported 'stable' regimes all would be well. This has backfired BIG TIME in 3 countries that were supposed to be pro-Western, autocratic and 'stable' (Egypt, Tunisia and to a lesser extent Jordan).
 
Zentraedi
Posts: 609
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:30 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:16 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Al Baradei is a lying bastard who would hand power over to the MB as soon as he has the chance.

Care to back up that assertion?
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2556
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:47 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 8):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 3):
Let's tell it as it is and not repeat government propaganda: there are no "pro-crowds"; only demonstrators and government and associated establishment mafia paid thugs and plain clothed security forces. These are also the only people who stand to gain by a prolongation of the current regime.

I'm sorry, but without any proof, you're just spreading blatant propaganda. You don't think there could be pro Mubarak supporters in Egypt? Mind you, these are the same protesters who claimed that Mubarak told the police not to show up and told the military to stay away from civilians so that lawlessness could spread....in some convoluted attack purported by Mubarak and his regime . I guess they don't realize that the rocks and Molotov cocktails that they threw at the police and military MIGHT have had something to do with them not showing up. I'm sorry but what crap these anti-gov't supporters spew out of their mouth means nothing. They had the choice of protesting peacefully, but I guess they thought that would not have sent the right message, so now they've thrown their country into chaos.

Directorguy seems to broadly support the assertion that any supportors are establishment 'associates' (beneficiaries of the regime):

Quoting directorguy (Reply 4):
There ARE some legit. pro-Mubarak protesters. Some genuinely believe he has served the country well (mostly upper-class people who have done well under him). Some believe that he's done his bit by saying that he won't run again in the summer and want to normalize life and get Egypt back on its feet and that Mubarak can be tolerated for another few months. Then you have NDP-hired thugs who'd chant 'Christina Aguilera for President' if you give them a Chicken Supreme and some money. Sadly there are a lot of said thugs.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18670
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:44 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 3):
Let's tell it as it is and not repeat government propaganda: there are no "pro-crowds"; only demonstrators and government and associated establishment mafia paid thugs and plain clothed security forces. These are also the only people who stand to gain by a prolongation of the current regime.

I think it is rather more complicated than you assume.

If all the pro-Mubarak supporters are paid by the government, why is the army, also paid by the government, behaving as it is?

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...st/2011/02/201123125548860929.html

"There have been sporadic clashes throughout Thursday, as the army fanned out to separate the two sides and allowed thousands more protesters to enter their camp in the square."

If the object is to clear protestors from the square, why let more protestors into the square?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...gypt-protest-idUSTRE7125Q420110203

"An Egyptian army tank moved against supporters of President Hosni Mubarak as they hurled rocks at anti-Mubarak protesters in central Cairo, prompting cheers from demonstrators battered by overnight fighting that killed six."

I have little doubt that some - many? - of the pro-Mubarak crowd are paid, but not necessarily by Mubarak.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2556
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:05 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
If all the pro-Mubarak supporters are paid by the government, why is the army, also paid by the government, behaving as it is?

Probably because the army is not monolithic:

- On the one hand, they are well respected by the majority of mainstream people because:

1. They are not the corrupt and hated police
2. Most families have someone either in or who has been in the army due to compulsory national service

- On the other hand, the top brass are the cronies of Mubarak who himself is a former head of the air force. So the top of the military are somewhat aligned with Mubarak, but preside over a popular army with strong and immediate ties to the popular mainstream

Finally, as some commentators have pointed out, the future of Egypt may well rest with the middle ranking officers and whether they look to align with the privileged interests of their superiors or the popular sentiments of their enlisted men...
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18670
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:11 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 13):
Finally, as some commentators have pointed out, the future of Egypt may well rest with the middle ranking officers and whether they look to align with the privileged interests of their superiors or the popular sentiments of their enlisted men...

Which, as I said, suggests it is rather more complicated than your earlier post indicated.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:57 pm

From the ABC News site

Mubarak: 'If I Resign Today There Will Be Chaos'
In an Exclusive Interview, Egypt's President Says "I Do Not Want to see Egyptians Fighting Each Other"

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...erview-president/story?id=12833673

Christiane Amanpour is a most outstanding news reporter!
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
SQ325
Posts: 1282
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2001 7:54 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:57 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
He made the Egyptian tourist industry grow by leaps and bounds, in spite of Islamist attempts at weakening it, and tourism generates a sizable percentage of the Egyptian GDP. Many protestors are demanding freedom, yes, but "Freedom to destroy Israel"?

Well regarding tourism I' d rather say tourism is not really good for the egyptian people and they are not really benefiting.
Most of the red sea resorts are huge all inclusive prisons, mostly managed by westeners.
Tourists only leave their hotel to go diving or to buy a fake Gucci handbag.
I heard there is a rule saying that 90% of all jobs in Hotels must be given to locals.
At the end the egyptians work as waiters or room cleaners for a insane low salary while all better jobs go to westeners.
If you go to the Hilton or Steigenberger in HRG you will see that from the Chief de cuisine to the managing director all key positions are filled with non egyptian staff.

The Israel problem is a different story, Israel is not able and not willing to tolerate a second Iran right next to their border.
So it is logical that they would like to stick with the current regime.
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:59 pm

Says Egyptian President Mubarak:

He said he's fed up with being president and would like to leave office now, but cannot, he says, for fear that the country would sink into chaos.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...erview-president/story?id=12833673

 Wow!
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
directorguy
Posts: 1066
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:58 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:16 pm

From the article:

1. Mubarak and Jimmy appear to be both in Cairo
2. Mubarak states that it was never Jimmy's intention to run. Mixed reaction to this one; personally I never really thought that his son would ever take over.
3. He claims that there would be 'chaos' if he left. Nah....if he leaves office, Omar Soliman will assume the responsibilities of the Presidency and things can go back to normal. The Parliament can issue him a pardon of any charges leveled against him.
4. He says he's 'sad' about Egyptians fighting each other. Really. Whose fault is that.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 21725
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:53 pm

With reports coming in of Mubaraks mob (Police ) rounding up journalists and supporters of opposition parties it seems Mubarak has lied to all and is living in another world. Maybe the Egyptian peoples freedom will only come with Mubarak being overthrown dead or alive .....
 
santi319
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:25 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
The only reason the Palestinians have the autonomy they have today, such as it is, is because Israel felt comfortable enough that their two major Arab neighbors, Jordan and Egypt, would not attack them again.

Are you serious? They have slowly been building more and more inside the West Bank, and if you read the Palestinian Papers not even if East Jerusalem was given to Israel they would agree to leave the West Bank alone...

Stay strong Egypt!!! Revolutions are not always easy but I am proud of living in a time where the youth stands for themselves!!!! Hope it is the beginning of more to come!
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:04 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
The only reason the Palestinians have the autonomy they have today, such as it is, is because Israel felt comfortable enough that their two major Arab neighbors, Jordan and Egypt, would not attack them again. If that goes away, you can say goodbye to any positive developments for the Palestinians.

Come on now, don't be using that as an excuse for the plight of the Palestinians.

Israels self interests are solely responsible for that, and no one else.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 10):
Care to back up that assertion?

If you get an response to that, it should be a good one !

Quoting Santi319 (Reply 20):
Are you serious? They have slowly been building more and more inside the West Bank, and if you read the Palestinian Papers not even if East Jerusalem was given to Israel they would agree to leave the West Bank alone...

   Precisely. They are more or less satisfied with nothing less than gaining the whole lot.

Quoting directorguy (Reply 9):
As for Mubarak 'preserving' peace with Israel. You call that peace? He failed to normalize relations with Israel. We got the Sinai back and in exchange, all they got was an apartment in Maadi to call an embassy. No culture links, no trade links, nothing. Of course, the regime's failure to normalize relations undermined the land-for-peace program, which means that Israel sees no real reason to give up land for a Palestinian state. Again, I see golden opportunities wasted.

One thing that is astonishing out of all this, is the fact that so many commentators, seem more concerned with Israels stability, rather than that of Egypt's. Crazy, I mean, who's country is almost heading to a civil war again ???


Differences of opinions are all ready starting to surface from the west.
The US now wants Mubarak gone, and has basically hung him out to dry.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-openl...ds-speedy-exit-20110203-1afff.html

And Tony Blair, stands by Mubarak as 'a force for good' and calls for caution, in calling for him to step down.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/blair-st...force-for-good-20110203-1affh.html

My oh my, how things change. The US has abandoned him and the UK likes him because he has maintained Peace with Israel. That view is likely to anger many Egyptians who believe they have had to endure decades of dictatorship because the US put Israel's interests ahead of their freedom.

I think there might be a hint of truth in that last statement, that's for sure.

Then there is this classic quote from T Blair...

''I don't think the West should be the slightest bit embarrassed about the fact that it's been working with Mubarak over the peace process, but at the same time it's been urging change in Egypt.''

Well Tony, a lot of people don't seem to agree with you, and see it as blatantly hypocritical
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
ImperialEagle
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:47 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 17):
for fear that the country would sink into chaos.

Well, that's what it looks like. Seems to me the people need to take a breather and have some elections and get the right person in----not just anybody because they are power hungry.

Seems like the more chaotic things become the more likely people who thrive on chaos----like extremists-----will end up taking charge. Egypt already has so many poor people. Looting, burning, beating and killing each other are too self-destructive. Its only going to hurt the poor people even more. Already just this week alone their economy has ground to a halt. If they end up with a government businesses don't trust, it will be a long-range economic disaster for the Egyptian people. Just the natural gas deal with Israel is worth billions. And if the western nations feel threatened and cut off aid funding it will really get bad.

Now that the people have been heard, and Mubarak seems to "get it" and will step-down, I think it is time to calm down and methodically hammer out a good plan for Egypt's future.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6562
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:20 am

Quoting directorguy (Reply 9):
On paper, it looks like Mubarak achieved 'a lot' for Egypt. But not really. The tourism market in my opinion, is severely underdeveloped. The overwhelming majority of tourists go to Sharm/Hurghada. Only a relatively small portion get to see what Egypt is famous for.

Dear directorguy, I don't think it is fair to blame underdevelopment of tourism on Mubarak. The much too frequent terror attacks on tourist sites have been the problem.

Tourism to Egypt has been a go-stop-go-stop business. Over and over again during the last twenty years we have read in the news about a terror attack, and then the tour operators come in and tell us that 30,000 prepaid Egypt tours should call in and have their tour changed to somewhere else or refunded because Egypt has been taken off the agenda. Then a year later we see adverts telling about "Introducing Egypt, one week only $299 and 99 cent all included".

It's not possible to build good business on that.

The present situation is not a terror attack on tourism, but it works the same way. Last week, and every week many months before that, there were constantly 5-6000 Danish tourists in Egypt. Yesterday nine planes brought the last 1500 back home. The tour operators tell us that they have scrapped Egypt certainly for the rest of this season, and they may reconsider when the situation has been "quiet and stable" for some considerable period of time. Same old story which we have heard much too often.

5-6000 Danish tourist doesn't make an industry in Egypt. But consider that Denmark is just over one percent of the EU. Constantly having 500,000 EU tourists less is no minor thing.

Tourist industry is a very fragile business. What takes years to build up, is destroyed in a split second by one single suicide bomber.

That's also the reason why the overwhelming majority of tourists go to Sharm/Hurghada. People who go there, go because of the climate, which is indeed much more pleasant than here in Scandinavia. And then they do not bother too much that they pay for what other sorts of tourist would call "living in a prison", but pretty well protected from potential terror. There are different sorts of tourists, and those going to Sharm and Hurghada are 180 degrees opposite the backpackers exploring Icelandic volcanoes with a rented 4X4 SUV.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18670
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:28 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
Precisely. They are more or less satisfied with nothing less than gaining the whole lot.

But for Adolf Hitler, they might have had the whole lot from the git-go - at least, the Palestinian Jews might have - but that's a long way off topic.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:54 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 22):
And if the western nations feel threatened and cut off aid funding it will really get bad.

That is part of the problem, if not the problem.

The west, especially the US, set Mubarak up to start with. They have blatantly supported Mubarak for 30 + years, mostly without to much question, even though they were well aware of his reputation and the "things" he was up too, now they want him gone.

The UN has decide to evacuate its staff out of Egypt, deeming the situation to dangerous and volatile.

Quote from Sen J McCain.

Senator McCain: President Mubarak has been a good friend. He has helped us with Israel and to stymie al-Qaeda. We should be appreciative of that. He later added that the message from the events in Cairo is that "oppressive and repressive regimes cannot last for ever".

So, another words, we have no further use for him and he can bugger off now. Pathetic

But hey, what the hell, we've supported him and enabled him to abuse his own people, but that doesn't matter dose it, we don't care, because he has helped us with Israel and al-Qaeda and that's all we are interested in isn't it. We don't care about the Egyptians, not our problem.

Dose anybody else see how out outrageous that quote is.

No wonder holidaying westerns and Journalists are now being bashed and roughed up by the protesters, I'm surprised there is not more anti western feelings.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18670
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:08 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 25):
Dose anybody else see how out outrageous that quote is.

I think a lot of Senator McCain's statements recently - about many matters, not least of them DADT - have been fairly outrageous.

But heck, the US is a democracy, with considerable freedom of speech, and a lot of people have said a lot of outrageous things.

However, I will post once again what Secretary Rice said about Egypt - to Egypt, in Egypt - in 2005:

http://articles.cnn.com/2005-06-20/w...l-election-rice-speech?_s=PM:WORLD

"U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice challenged Egyptians on Monday to "lead and define" a democratic future in the Middle East.

Rice, delivering a speech at The American University in Cairo, also had strong words for Syria's government, calling on Damascus to "join the progress that is going on all around it."


mariner
aeternum nauta
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:52 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
However, I will post once again what Secretary Rice said about Egypt - to Egypt, in Egypt - in 2005:

Sounds absolutely ideal, I hope it comes to fruition for all concerned.

But I see lots of holes, especially with this....

Asked about America's credibility in Egypt and how some question whether the country has the "moral authority" to push democracy in light of recent events such as the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal, Rice said America "is speaking to a set of core values and principles that the United States holds, but that we believe are universal principles ... the human dignity that comes from democratic values."

I realize that no one and nothing is perfect in this life, but when this goes on under the nose of the entire world, its hard to take anything seriously that they say isn't it.

And its still "open for business".  Angry

Don't you think ?

[Edited 2011-02-03 23:15:19]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 8560
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:51 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 6):
Currently... anyone anti-Mubarak in Egypt = pro-democracy... *strange eh?*

Strange indeed. An excellent column here:

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=206121

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
If that goes away, you can say goodbye to any positive developments for the Palestinians.

I dunno, it might be very helpful to them to have Islamist totalitarianism next door. Israel's only conceivable reaction will be hawkish, which would inevitably force confrontation many have been waiting for. Sad...

Quoting Santi319 (Reply 20):
Stay strong Egypt!!! Revolutions are not always easy but I am proud of living in a time where the youth stands for themselves!!!! Hope it is the beginning of more to come!

Um, I'm not sure if a Salafist majority is really what the world wants to see in Egypt but I suppose everyone is entitled to an opinion. More to come? Be careful what you wish for - KSA is next.

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice challenged Egyptians on Monday to "lead and define" a democratic future in the Middle East.

Yes part of the storied fantasy that represents the entire Bush team's narcissistic paradigm on possibilities for regime change in the Middle East. You reap what you sow.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18670
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:22 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 27):
I realize that no one and nothing is perfect in this life, but when this goes on under the nose of the entire world, its hard to take anything seriously that they say isn't it.

And its still "open for business".  

Don't you think ?

No. And I'm not sure what you mean by "still open for business."

I thought we'd thrashed this out in the other thread. As I said then, there is a great deal to bash the US for in that part of the world and elsewhere. As I said then, I have my own list going back to 1948.

I thought the invasion of Iraq was arrogance of the highest order (and Tony Blair the enabler) and I thought Abu Ghraib was disgraceful. Take it further and no one can satisfactorily explain to me what Afghanistan is all about.

Because, in large part, of US policy at that time, I cannot go back to the country where I was born - which doesn't even exist anymore.

But I don't think everything the US does in the area is wrong and I surely don't regard the US as the only mischief maker in the world.

mariner

[Edited 2011-02-04 00:29:48]
aeternum nauta
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:09 am

U.S. and Egypt authorities are working on a possibly immediate Mubarak step down.

US Officials: US-Egypt discuss Mubarak quitting
AP By MATTHEW LEE and BEN FELLER, Associated Press Matthew Lee And Ben Feller, Associated Press – 23 mins ago

WASHINGTON – The Obama administration is in talks with top Egyptian officials about the possible immediate resignation of President Hosni Mubarak and the formation of an interim government that could prepare the country for free and fair elections later this year, U.S. officials said late Thursday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110204/ap_on_re_us/us_us_egypt

So it is the US who determines that Mubarak must leave? Why not have a UN resolution voted?

   
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:24 am

Look at the popular movement on Tahrir Square today. It is huge! Gigantic!

If President Mubarak does not decide to step down after this then what?? He has named a Vice-President in the person of Mr Suleiman, the firest time they have a Vice-President in Egypt. Mr Mubarak said to Madame Christiane Amanpour a most respected news reperter that he was fed up and wanted to leave but he is afraid there will be chaos. He can leave the job to Mr Suleiman to take care of and some of the chaos would probably subside.

He can resign today and still be respected. I think this is what will happen.
Again look at the crowds on Tahrir Square... It is huge!!! Unreal.... but again what after??

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

 Wow!
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
directorguy
Posts: 1066
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:58 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:39 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
One thing that is astonishing out of all this, is the fact that so many commentators, seem more concerned with Israels stability, rather than that of Egypt's. Crazy, I mean, who's country is almost heading to a civil war again ???

LOL, I was kind of offended by how often the Egyptian crisis is analysed within the context of Israeli interests. Just because Mubarak goes doesn't mean the MB will step in. Egypt is not Iran. Israel is overwhelmingly unpopular in Egypt (Mubarak's fault since he didn't do enough to normalize relations) but I do hope that no future govt in Egypt does anything stupid to 'provoke' an Israeli re-occupation of the Sinai.
As for Egypt affecting Israel's 'stability'-reactions in the Palestinian territories have been mixed. Some are pro-Mubarak, some are pro-MB, some are anti etc. Apparently the current Egyptian VP Omar Soliman was a frequent face at Israeli-Arab conferences and so, should he assume the presidency, would continue Mubarak's policies.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 23):

Since the majority of Western tourists visit Sharm/Hurghada then hopefully it will be easier to rebuild. Yes, the Egyptian tourism economy has taken a hit. But it will build itself up again. In this revolution, Westerners weren't in any immediate danger. I believe it was general security concerns, disruption of daily life and possible lack of supplies/cash that led to so many evacuations.
I will say again what I mean when I say that Mubarak didn't develop the tourism industry 'enough'. So few people actually visit the Egyptian cities, and so little has been done (relatively speaking) to make places like Cairo, Port Said etc. tourist-friendly in the way that Rome, Paris, London etc. are. Of course there is a market for Sharm/Hurghada and these have been well developed, and recently plans have been made to turn Luxor into an 'open museum'-but couldn't these things have been done ages ago?

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 30):
So it is the US who determines that Mubarak must leave? Why not have a UN resolution voted?

It should be the Egyptian people who determine who must leave/stay, not anyone else, not even the UN, certainly not the USA. It would be a blatant attack on Egyptian sovereignty, and would lead to people rallying to Mubarak. It would backfire big time.
 
User avatar
SOBHI51
Posts: 3822
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:44 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 32):
the firest time they have a Vice-President in Egypt


Not really, President Mubarak was vice president to Sadat.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 32):
Again look at the crowds on Tahrir Square... It is huge!!! Unreal.... but again what after??


I am sad to say that the original non partisan youth who started this movement has left Tahrir square and the demonstration is being taken over by MB. The worst scenario that will lead to more chaos.

The only small light i see in that, if MB start talks with the VP they can send all those people back home.

[Edited 2011-02-04 02:49:05]
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:50 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 34):
Not really, President Mubarak was vice president to Sadat.

Thank you for your rectification, SOBHI. I am certainly old enough to know only I have forgotten it.

Massive protesting today. I saw during prayer time that the crowd was very reliigiiously oriented so you must be right. Probably the MB leading today. Again this reminds me of Iran when they had the Shah out with the radical Muslims take over.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
User avatar
SOBHI51
Posts: 3822
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:48 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 35):
Massive protesting today.


Lets put this in real prospective. The population in Egypt is about 80 millions, those in the square are about 200K. Do they really represent the majority of the people? Now there is over 1 million people who gain there daily bread from the tourism industry, directly or indirectly, with the death of that field for a period do you think they are with those demonstrators? I could apply the same for other fields.
If if President Mubarak leaves office, who do you think will pay for all the damages? How are you going to gain the confidence of foreign investors? How could you create new jobs while a lot of opportunities have disappeared?
This a a disaster for Egypt, fine there voices were heard but enough is enough.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:54 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 36):
This a a disaster for Egypt, fine there voices were heard but enough is enough.

I agree. The longer this goes the worse it will get. It seems though that they don't want to stop their protests.

Also why would the US order Hosni Mubarak to step down?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_us_egy...Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdXNvZmZpY2lhbHN0

They want Suleiman (friend of the US-made Egyptian army) to control the country for now. Then they want free and fair elections later this year? Makes no sense!

US officials: Talks on Mubarak leaving immediately.

[Edited 2011-02-04 04:02:41]
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
User avatar
SOBHI51
Posts: 3822
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:30 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 37):
US officials: Talks on Mubarak leaving immediately.

The prime minister yesterday said that Egypt has 7000 years of history behind it, we are not going to listen to a young country of 200 years, his words not mine
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:45 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 31):
It is huge! Gigantic!

Certainly huge compared to stade Louis II on a very good day (18,500 seats), however Tahrir square is about 25,000 sqm, add the approaches and deduct some unavailable spots and you should end up with 60,000 sqm max, that's good for 50-55,000 people at most. Impressive on screen but certainly far from gigantic.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 34):
Probably the MB leading today

I saw people praying as they usually do on Friday, I did not see a political action associated with it, not even a banner other than a few national flags.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 8560
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:15 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 30):
So it is the US who determines that Mubarak must leave? Why not have a UN resolution voted?

The UN has not propped up Mubarak through the duration of his time in office - that has just a little to do with it. That and the billions in handouts that have come from the US, and not the UN, as well.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:36 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 39):
the billions in handouts that have come from the US

This aid money does not give them the right to dictate whatever has to be done in Egypt and certainly not give orders for the President of Egypt to step down.

This is up to the President of Egypt himself to determine and he has declared that he will step down at the end of his term and not run again in the next elections, neither himself or his son Gamal.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 8560
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:39 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 40):

This aid money does not give them the right to dictate whatever has to be done in Egypt and certainly not give orders for the President of Egypt to step down.

In an ideal world, yes, but you present this as if the concept of realpolitik doesn't exist. US aid money, or that from any other country, is not gift money - it comes with strings, some of which are rather thick and binding.

It's no different than a personal loan to a friend - if they start taking actions financially that you think are inappropriate, you'll be very inclined to say something to them about it.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:52 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 41):
It's no different than a personal loan to a friend - if they start taking actions financially that you think are inappropriate, you'll be very inclined to say something to them about it.

I don't loan money to friends. I give them the money. I never ask them to give the money back. Either I give money or I don't do anything at all. I don't have anything to say. It's up to the friend how he spends the money. Recently I had one friend in financial difficulty. I gave him 12,000 Yen leftover from my last trip to Japan. I said to keep it and told him he owes me nothing in return.

**

Good statement on Egypt by Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov. No ultimatums, no deadlines, no prescriptions, no solutions imposed from outside.

[Edited 2011-02-04 11:08:31]
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
directorguy
Posts: 1066
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:58 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:47 pm

ued references to our past/history is what is holding us back. There is no shame in being an ally of the United States

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 35):
If if President Mubarak leaves office, who do you think will pay for all the damages? How are you going to gain the confidence of foreign investors? How could you create new jobs while a lot of opportunities have disappeared?

With all respect, it is the Mubarak set's overt reliance on foreign investment that has led in part to these problems. The lack of sound fiscal policy and a lack of transparent state budgeting are two HUGE problems. Too many key areas of the Egyptian economy are dominated by a single company , all with immediate ties to the Mubarak family. Free enterprise is stifled. I'm all for free enterprise, as a consumer I like having choice, and I value the foreign brands that are now available in my country. But there must be restrictions on free-for-all-capitalism.
In the short-term, the situation will be resolved (what will happen politically is anyone's guess of course) and things will go back to normal. Businesses will resume. Tourism will pick up, especially since Sharm/Hurghada are practically separate from the rest of Egypt.

Regarding the US aid-well the majority of US aid goes directly to the military, and projects that seek to further US influence in the country, such as universities. That's to say nothing of the money that goes into the pockets of certain people. It's not the end of the world if the US cuts down on aid as far as the average Egyptian is concerned.

For anyone who's interested,here's a link to the Egyptian Constitution. Article 84 is pretty interesting. http://www.egypt.gov.eg/english/laws/constitution/default.aspx
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:36 pm

Quoting directorguy (Reply 33):
Apparently the current Egyptian VP Omar Soliman was a frequent face at Israeli-Arab conferences and so, should he assume the presidency, would continue Mubarak's policies.

Yes, this is what I have heard to. He is reasonably well respected by Israeli Power brokers and as you say has been involved in meetings etc. He earned international respect for his role as a mediator in Middle East affairs and for curbing Islamic extremism. Suleiman, has met with Hamas and Palestinian Authority figures in order to secure ceasefire arrangements with Israel. In the wake of Israeli Prime Minister Sharon's decision to pursue a unilateral Israel withdrawal from Gaza, Egypt signaled a new readiness to play a constructive role in making the region secure. Egyptian intelligence chief Omar Suleiman became the point man in discussions with the Palestinians, delivering the message of the United States and the Quartet that the Palestinians must consolidate and reform their security forces and empower their prime minister rather than Chairman Arafat.

So it would be reasonable to say, that if elected President, things would pretty much stay the same in regards to Israel.
Here is some info on him.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/egypt/suleiman.htm

Quoting mariner (Reply 29):
And I'm not sure what you mean by "still open for business."

Well it hasn't been closed down has it, as it should in my opinion. Its had a renovation last year I think.
People will always remember what happened there under US rule, and its continued presence will only fester like an open wound and serve as a reminder of those bad times of abuse.

Quoting mariner (Reply 29):
But I don't think everything the US does in the area is wrong and I surely don't regard the US as the only mischief maker in the world.

Nor do I think the US is the worlds only mischief maker, far from it, but in the case of the this region of the ME, I disagree.
And in the case of Egypt current mess, I disagree
US foreign policy in the ME has been a disaster for too long. From where I stand, they appear to continually back and support losers, each and every time they go gung ho, without regard to consequences in the long term, look at where Egypt is now, chaos and on the verge of civil war and high ME instability, and this is after 30 years of US "support".

Inst this exactly what the US was trying to avoid happening in Egypt.

I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the US and others perhaps to a lesser degree, were trying to achieve stability in this area by supporting Mubarak and the gang, no ?

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 30):
So it is the US who determines that Mubarak must leave? Why not have a UN resolution voted?


They might think its them who determines if he stays or goes... lets wait and see how greater influence they may or may not now enjoy.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 40):
This aid money does not give them the right to dictate whatever has to be done in Egypt and certainly not give orders for the President of Egypt to step down.

This is up to the President of Egypt himself to determine and he has declared that he will step down at the end of his term and not run again in the next elections, neither himself or his son Gamal.

MadameConcord, your right on the nail with that statement !
Unfortunately, a lot here don't/can't seem to see it that way.
Its apparent, just by looking at this thread, and the lack of participation form our fellow US members to join in the discussion that you can't defend the indefensible, well not always !

Quoting directorguy (Reply 43):
The lack of sound fiscal policy and a lack of transparent state budgeting are two HUGE problems.

Maybe to much of the international aid money, is diverted towards military spending, and instead should be spent on more social community based program's, like helping the unemployed to look for work or with support etc. Try and build good will amongst its citizens.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18670
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:48 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 44):
US foreign policy in the ME has been a disaster for too long. From where I stand, they appear to continually back and support losers, each and every time they go gung ho, without regard to consequences in the long term, look at where Egypt is now, chaos and on the verge of civil war and high ME instability, and this is after 30 years of US "support".

While that may be true of the Shah, I don't know that I would regard Sadat or Mubarak (originally) as "losers" and whatever happened in the previous years, eventually the US did not support Saddam Hussein.

What is happening now is the classic lion in winter syndrome - Mubarak stayed too long and did too little and the US warned him about that five years ago.

Again, I thought we thrashed this out in the previous thread - I think you make no allowance for change (I don't see the active hand of the CIA here) and I have no idea what your alternative is.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:21 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 45):
While that may be true of the Shah, I don't know that I would regard Sadat or Mubarak (originally) as "losers" and whatever happened in the previous years,

I'm not only talking about Egypt,as I said in the previous thread. There are plenty of other examples of bad policy in the ME and I have given a link to a good article outlining them below. Its a brilliant article IMHO.

http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2007/0221diplomacy_talbott.aspx
And, this.
http://www.morssglobalfinance.com/us...icy-%E2%80%93-a-complete-disaster/

Quoting mariner (Reply 45):
eventually the US did not support Saddam Hussein.

Very true, but my point is that they did originally support him and his regime did they not, and that's all that matters They should never had done it to start with.

Quoting mariner (Reply 45):
What is happening now is the classic lion in winter syndrome - Mubarak stayed too long and did too little and the US warned him about that five years ago.

So what and how did the US do, to actively try and get him (Mubarak) to reform then, in the last 5 years ?
Because it doesn't look like it has worked very well.

Quoting mariner (Reply 45):
Again, I thought we thrashed this out in the previous thread

To a point we did.

Quoting mariner (Reply 45):
I think you make no allowance for change

What, you mean, in me seeing that the US has changed from those time to now ?

Well they may well have "changed" ?, who knows, only time will tell in the long run. but I think in many respects the damage has been done already, well it certainly appears that way in some countries that they been involved with.

There is still a lot of unfinished business out there I think.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18670
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:13 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 46):
So what and how did the US do, to actively try and get him (Mubarak) to reform then, in the last 5 years ?
Because it doesn't look like it has worked very well.

Oh. There have been a number of articles suggesting that the US actively encouraged the Egyptian dissidents, long before this present situation exploded. I very much hope they didn't conspire to bring this present situation about however, taking us back to the bad old days of the CIA (see Chile).

But I still don't know what it is you want.

The US should not - in my opinion - kick out the leader of any country, however much anyone dislikes that leader. I have Iraqi friends ("family") who yearn for the bad ol' days of Saddam Hussein because at least they were allowed to get on with living - there was no religious agenda against them.

I even have qualms about the claimed US discussions with the military leaders in Egypt now, for the removal of Mubarak. If the Egyptian army is the king-maker, let them make the king.

Similiarly, I was uneasy about the removal of Noriega in Panama.

What should the US do about Gaddafi in Libya, or Mugabe in Zimbabwe, a genuine despot? I don't think the US should "do" anything and once upon a time, Mugabe was a populist hero.

Yes, I believe Mubarak should go, and yes, I would like to see a more democratic form of government develop in Egypt.

But it's their choice. Whatever form of governance they choose is, or should be, their choice. And when it is chosen, I would hope that the West (including the US) respects that and works with that government - and continues the aid program.

mariner

[Edited 2011-02-04 16:27:43]
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8245
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:56 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 44):
Its apparent, just by looking at this thread, and the lack of participation form our fellow US members to join in the discussion that you can't defend the indefensible, well not always !

I mean, what can some of us say? I didn't know we were giving them aid, just like the many things I don't know the government is doing. I don't make policy, my vote is just one of millions, and I don't agree with everything the US government does....... all I can really say is I hope Egypt can get a good stable government.

My question is since it's apparent most Egyptians do not like Mubarak, why is it bad that our President is trying to get him to step down? I've read many of the anti-US sentiment and I can agree with some of that, but isn't the President doing a service to the Egyptian people?
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2304
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)

Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:45 am

Directorguy or anyone - no one answered this question ion the previous thread.

Are the main ports of Port Said, Alexandria & Damietta open for business, specifically for container and general cargo vessels? If they are closed, that cant be good for the nation either once supplies start running out.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 330west, phatfarmlines, UltimoTiger777 and 1 guest

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos