CPH-R
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First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:59 pm

Quote:
NEW YORK -- Planned Parenthood, a perennial protest target because of its role in providing abortions, has notified the FBI that at least 12 of its health centers were visited recently by a man purporting to be a sex trafficker but who may instead be part of an attempted ruse to entrap clinic employees.

In each case, according to Planned Parenthood, the man sought to speak privately with a clinic employee and then requested information about health services for sex workers, including some who he said were minors and in the U.S. illegally.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2011/01/24/AR2011012404462.html

Apparently the head honcho this time isn't James O'Keefe, but a Lisa Rose, a 22-year old UCLA far right activist. What really baffles me, is that she states she started her anti-abortion group in 2006, which means she decided that abortion should be outlawed at the mature age of 17!

One PP worker has already been fired for failing to notify the police immediately, though there are murmurs that videos have once again been edited (ala O'Keefe and his gang) to ensure a thoroughly one-sided picture.
 
fr8mech
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:34 am

Quoting CPH-R (Thread starter):
which means she decided that abortion should be outlawed at the mature age of 17!

So, what age is appropriate for her to decide that she believes that killing a fetus should be illegal?

I have no problem with someone trying to expose illegal activity, especially when the targeted organization receives federal funding.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
sleekjet
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:03 am

It's funny. The NYT and WaPo covered this story and did their best to concentrate on the surreptitious taping rather than the lack of concern by the PP employee that a purported sex trafficker was wanting to use their services.

Someone, somewhere will will have give an accounting for all these baby murders.
II Cor. 4:17-18
 
Mir
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:11 am

Quoting sleekjet (Reply 2):
The NYT and WaPo covered this story and did their best to concentrate on the surreptitious taping rather than the lack of concern by the PP employee that a purported sex trafficker was wanting to use their services.

Did they not notify the FBI about it? I'm not seeing anything that says that they provided services.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
luv2fly
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:11 am

What surprises me with this whole debate is the fact that you have a 22 year old who is forcing her opinion and supposed expertise on what is right, though most likely she never have had to make this type of a most difficult decision. Being a male I'll never have to make this choice, though I would never want it not to be an option for a woman.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
helvknight
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:14 am

Quoting sleekjet (Reply 2):
It's funny. The NYT and WaPo covered this story and did their best to concentrate on the surreptitious taping rather than the lack of concern by the PP employee that a purported sex trafficker was wanting to use their services.

Not so much surreptitious taping more misleading editing ala Breitbart/ O'Keefe. The one manager who did not refuse them was summarily fired.
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member - Groucho Marx
 
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Tugger
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:23 am

The thing I hate about this kind of stuff is that both "the left" and "the right" have things they can point to, most often an individual, and they try to paint the entire side as being false, disingenuous, or dangerous. Here we have "the right" pointing out a few failures in a certain organization, and more accurately a few people within an organization, and "the left" has done the same with people and organizations and people that are considered "conservative".

It doesn't end and it doesn't actually change anything. It is simply people making noise and jumping up and down trying to point out the failures of others when what we really need to do is figure out what we agree on and work toward a common goal. Our common goals.

That is the failure in our political discourse, from the talk show host windbags (left and right), to the people in Congress (left and right), to people who shout that "the right is fostering hate speech", to people like this woman. Let's seek to divide people further and focus on small things, make them partisan, and shout these small things as loudly as possible to make them big and noticeable, even though they have no real effect on what this county needs to solve and address.

This is stupid, meaningless, and small compared to the real problems that we have in this nation.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
mham001
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:31 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
Did they not notify the FBI about it? I'm not seeing anything that says that they provided services.

No, they gave advice on how to circumvent the laws.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 4):
What surprises me with this whole debate is the fact that you have a 22 year old who is forcing her opinion and supposed expertise on what is right,

What you really have is a young woman taking a stand for what she believes. What these tapes are doing is only showing PP ignoring current law. What exactly is wrong with that?
 
Mir
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:52 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 7):
No, they gave advice on how to circumvent the laws.

Source? I didn't see anything like that in the posted article.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
PacNWjet
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:57 am

Network news programs have conducted stings like this for decades. One example: Dateline NBC's infamous "To Catch a Predator" series, in which an NBC news team partners with the activist group Perverted Justice to ferret out potential child molesters trolling the Internet for teenagers willing to have sex. The "teenagers" in question are adult Perverted Justice volunteers, and the NBC news crew, with Chris Hansen as the on-air reporter, confronts the suspected predators using decoys in the sting house. (Side note: If you ever find yourself with Chris Hansen telling you to "have a seat," you are going to have a bad day.) Some of the suspected predators have rap sheets and previous histories of child molestation, but many appear to be hapless immigrants and borderline mental deficients who were lured to the sting house by the Perverted Justice volunteers. All sting operations contain an element of deception (which is what makes them stings), some practice outright entrapment, but many uncover unpleasant truths that would otherwise have gone undiscovered.

[Edited 2011-02-06 21:06:37]
 
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Tugger
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:06 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 7):
What these tapes are doing is only showing PP ignoring current law. What exactly is wrong with that?

Isn't it illegal to tape people without their consent? Isn't she also ignoring current law?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
PacNWjet
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:42 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 10):
Isn't it illegal to tape people without their consent? Isn't she also ignoring current law?

Laws vary by state and jurisdiction, and often there are exceptions for the press and news organizations, otherwise there would be a lot of news personnel in prison at ABC, CBS, CNN, FOX, NBC, etc. as well as thousands of local television stations that have staged undercover investigations for decades.
 
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Tugger
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:01 pm

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 11):
Laws vary by state and jurisdiction, and often there are exceptions for the press and news organizations, otherwise there would be a lot of news personnel in prison at ABC, CBS, CNN, FOX, NBC, etc. as well as thousands of local television stations that have staged undercover investigations for decades.

Doesn't really answer the question. It may be done regularly by many people, but the question that I was responding to was "What exactly is wrong with that". If you can point out that it is legal, then there would be "nothing wrong with that" but if it is not legal then that is what is "wrong with that".

Again, I think this is a story of nothing that needs to be addressed in a national manner, nor should it be used, as it is being used, as a divisive tool to split opinion. This is a small problem that should be dealt with locally and by the business involved. People should get fired, or retrained, or disciplined and that should be the end of it. It is not a "big" story. Instead people are trying to use it as a wedge issue and that not needed or appropriate.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
ual747den
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:09 pm

A woman should always have the right to choose what she does with her body. I personally am completely against abortion but who am I to tell someone else what to do with their body. I also happen to be against letting another man have sex with me but you won't find me telling other men they can't do it. Same thing, womans body, womans choice.
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
Mir
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:40 pm

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 11):
often there are exceptions for the press and news organizations

Her organization is most definitely not a news organization.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
mham001
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:42 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):

Source? I didn't see anything like that in the posted article.

There was a long article on Yahoo about 2 days ago but I'm not surprised the Post doesn't mention it. Rather embarrassing for a pet liberal organization. A very simple Google search came up with this in the first link...
the clinic’s manager advised the scammers as to how they can basically stay out of legal trouble with under-aged persons involved with their sex trafficking antics. The advice given to the scammers includes being dishonest about the ages of the persons being brought to the clinic for treatment as well as saying that the persons are students.
http://www.examiner.com/conservative...uestioned-after-acorn-moment-video

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
Again, I think this is a story of nothing that needs to be addressed in a national manner,

So, the facilitation of underage sex trafficking by a national organization that receives public funding should just be overlooked and swept under the rug. Right.
 
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Tugger
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:48 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 15):
So, the facilitation of underage sex trafficking by a national organization that receives public funding should just be overlooked and swept under the rug. Right.

No of course not, but the story is being blown into something to be used as attack vehicle on what is considered a "liberal organization". This is not being exposed to correct a problem but to attack an organization. If it was an actual news story, and the intent was to simply correct the problems found that would be fine. But that is not what is being done here. And you know it.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
mham001
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:15 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 16):
No of course not, but the story is being blown into something to be used as attack vehicle on what is considered a "liberal organization". This is not being exposed to correct a problem but to attack an organization. If it was an actual news story, and the intent was to simply correct the problems found that would be fine. But that is not what is being done here. And you know it.

Of course they are being attacked. and why shouldn't they? Lets not forget the charge. Facilitating the sex trafficking of underage girls. and not just one instance, but a second tape has been released as well. So we have what could be construed as a systemic problem in a national, publicly funded organization. In other words, our tax dollars are being used. They (those that are participating) deserve to have the pitbulls of hell unleashed on their sorry asses.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:20 pm

Quoting sleekjet (Reply 2):
baby murders

Just like to respectfully point out that the medical community does not refer to fetuses as "babies" and the US Supreme Court does not refer to abortion as "murder". You know, backing up facts with facts and all that jazz. Carry on.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N1120A
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:18 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):

I have no problem with someone trying to expose illegal activity, especially when the targeted organization receives federal funding.

This isn't trying to "expose" anything. Its attempting to entrap people into something.

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 5):

Not so much surreptitious taping more misleading editing ala Breitbart/ O'Keefe. The one manager who did not refuse them was summarily fired.

Yep. Planned Parenthood is an organization that has always maintained the highest levels of integrity, specifically because they are so often unfairly targeted by anti-choice, anti-freedom groups.

Quoting tugger (Reply 10):

Isn't it illegal to tape people without their consent? Isn't she also ignoring current law?

In California it is, as with a few other states (exceptions exist for the hearing impaired and some others). Mostly though, we have one-party consent in this country.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 13):
A woman should always have the right to choose what she does with her body. I personally am completely against abortion but who am I to tell someone else what to do with their body. I also happen to be against letting another man have sex with me but you won't find me telling other men they can't do it. Same thing, womans body, womans choice.

Bingo. I don't think men have any right to say a word about abortion or a woman's reproductive health generally.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
CPH-R
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:20 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 15):
the clinic’s manager advised the scammers as to how they can basically stay out of legal trouble with under-aged persons involved with their sex trafficking antics. The advice given to the scammers includes being dishonest about the ages of the persons being brought to the clinic for treatment as well as saying that the persons are students.

The raw footage suggest that that part has been edited to make PP look bad.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201102040026
 
mham001
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:40 pm

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 20):

The raw footage suggest that that part has been edited to make PP look bad.

There seems top be some disagreement about that and there seems to be a slew of other tapes as well.

Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli has already received the full, unedited footage of the Planned Parenthood expose’ videos and he told CBS 6 WVTR in Richmond that they are “shocking.”
http://www.lifenews.com/2011/02/07/p...hock-va-governor-attorney-general/

Some may find that source questionable. Try this quote from the same Attorney General...

what you do have is clearly an open willingness of several organizations meaning subsidiaries of Planned Parenthood nationally in the same category, sex trafficking of minors, and an open willingness to participate in this. And, this is at a time that we are trying to deal with human trafficking.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/wei...enthood-videos-very-seriously.aspx
 
N1120A
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:43 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):

Some may find that source questionable. Try this quote from the same Attorney General...

You mean this guy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Cuccinelli

Yeah, GREAT source.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
fr8mech
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:53 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
This isn't trying to "expose" anything. Its attempting to entrap people into something.

No. Entrapment is when an agent of the State, i.e. a law enforcement officer, attempts to induce someone to commit a crime when that person had no intent to commit the crime. You're a lawyer, I'm sure you mis-spoke (mis-wrote?).
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
N1120A
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:00 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 23):

No. Entrapment is when an agent of the State, i.e. a law enforcement officer, attempts to induce someone to commit a crime when that person had no intent to commit the crime.

Did I say legal entrapment? Further, lots of these "To Catch a Predator" bits also involve the police.

Finally, you got the definition wrong. Entrapment can be a defense to a specific or general intent crime. The actual definition is inducing a person to commit an offense they would have otherwise been unlikely to commit.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
fr8mech
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:11 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
Did I say legal entrapment?

I love lawyers.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
Further, lots of these "To Catch a Predator" bits also involve the police.

This particular issue didn't. Correct?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
Finally, you got the definition wrong.

I'm sure my intent came across.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
N1120A
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:44 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):

I love lawyers.

Good. Most people don't love us until they need one of us.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):

I'm sure my intent came across.

Nope. You got it very wrong and your attempt at a "gotcha" failed.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
fr8mech
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:01 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
Nope. You got it very wrong and your attempt at a "gotcha" failed.


I won't play 'gotcha' with you. I chose not to cut and paste from the couple of web sites where I made sure I knew what I was talking about. I'm not an attorney and I don't play word games.

Back to this case. What's your beef with a private person trying to expose an organization that performs a service she abhors? If there is nothing to expose, she's wasting her time, right? Why did PP send out a memo to have people on their guard? If everyone is on the up & up, the memo should not have been necessary.

Right now, the right to an abortion is protected and it is the law. That does not preclude people, if they feel the law is wrong, from, legally, trying to change the law by influencing our policy makers.

What, exactly, is wrong with trying to change the law?

Further, since this organization takes federal, and I assume, state money, why is the government not performing more of these investigations? An organization that breaks the law or facilitates others to break the law, should be cut-off. Yes, any organization.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
luv2fly
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:40 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
Further, since this organization takes federal, and I assume, state money, why is the government not performing more of these investigations? An organization that breaks the law or facilitates others to break the law, should be cut-off. Yes, any organization.



With that rational numerous organizations and even branches of the military that has broken laws would all be cut off. Or just target ones that do something you don't personally agree with?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
mham001
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:59 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
You mean this guy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Cuccinelli

Yeah, GREAT source.

Because you don't agree with some of his politics? You're gonna have to get over that.
 
N1120A
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:34 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 29):

Because you don't agree with some of his politics? You're gonna have to get over that.

"Some?" The guy is an extremist and clearly has a political agenda.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):

Back to this case. What's your beef with a private person trying to expose an organization that performs a service she abhors?

I take issue with frauds.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
Why did PP send out a memo to have people on their guard?

Why shouldn't they? You have someone trying to attack you, even when you are doing nothing wrong, and you have to go on the defensive. That is especially true given the highly selective editing this woman appears to have engaged in.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):

Right now, the right to an abortion is protected and it is the law. That does not preclude people, if they feel the law is wrong, from, legally, trying to change the law by influencing our policy makers.

Guess what - You are never going to get 2/3rds of each House of Congress and 3/4ths of the several states to ban abortion.

BTW, certain types of fraud are good ways of getting yourself arrested. I wonder how long till this woman tries to break into someone's office and tap their phone? I hope she doesn't, but this has happened before.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):

What, exactly, is wrong with trying to change the law?

1) The right to choice is a human right.

2) The right to choice is an issue that has been settled for nearly 40 years in this country.

3) Destroying the rights of others simply because you don't agree with them (just like with gay marriage, gay sex, interracial marriage, the right to vote, I can keep going...) is always wrong.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):

Further, since this organization takes federal, and I assume, state money, why is the government not performing more of these investigations?

1) Because this organization is one of the best maintained NGOs in the world.

2) Because the government has much better things to be spending the money it borrows from China on.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 28):

With that rational numerous organizations and even branches of the military that has broken laws would all be cut off. Or just target ones that do something you don't personally agree with?

Exactly.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
I'm not an attorney and I don't play word games.

1) Get over your ridiculous, misplaced dislike of lawyers.

2) You were doing exactly that in an attempt to take a pot shot at a lawyer.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
mham001
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:02 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
"Some?" The guy is an extremist and clearly has a political agenda.

He also happens to be the top lawyer in the state and as an elected official, he is allowed a political agenda. Remember Jerry Brown?

He has said he has seen other unedited tapes and there are systemic problems. Do you have anything to refute that statement besides kneejerk political hate?

BTW, even PP admits a problem, they would not have fired the employee if they felt otherwise.
 
Pyrex
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:49 am

Couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of guys...

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):

Her organization is most definitely not a news organization.

I will make sure to remember that quote for the next time you intervene on some thread about Wikileaks.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
Maverick623
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:59 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):
I have no problem with someone trying to expose illegal activity, especially when the targeted organization receives federal funding.

Exactly. That being said, it's fairly obvious this is NOT a legitimate sting.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 15):
So, the facilitation of underage sex trafficking by a national organization

So, you see ONE doctored video of ONE employee, and you come to the conclusion that a whole entire organization is corrupt.

Good thing you're not a real sex-crimes detective.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
There seems top be some disagreement about that

Frankly, no there's not. Do you have something to refute that statement besides kneejerk political hate?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
and there seems to be a slew of other tapes as well.

Seems to be. Hmmm. Interesting standards of proof you have there.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 31):
Do you have anything to refute that statement besides kneejerk political hate?
Quoting mham001 (Reply 31):

BTW, even PP admits a problem, they would not have fired the employee if they felt otherwise.

I'm glad you know the policies and procedures of PP, and understand why they have them. I also like how you can tell someone's motive just by their actions.

FWIW, I'm anti-abortion. Seems like one of the few reasonable ones on either side.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Mir
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:35 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 32):
I will make sure to remember that quote for the next time you intervene on some thread about Wikileaks.

Fine. Won't do much good though - Wikileaks doesn't do what that organization does.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Pyrex
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:56 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 34):

Fine. Won't do much good though - Wikileaks doesn't do what that organization does.

Oh, so releasing classified, stolen information under the guise of "freedom of speech" is OK even if you are not an "accredited" journalist but wearing a hidden camera is not? Interesting double standards you have there... what is the criteria, the organization targeted (in Wikileaks' case, the U.S.A.) must be someone you disagree with?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
mham001
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:32 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 33):
So, you see ONE doctored video of ONE employee, and you come to the conclusion that a whole entire organization is corrupt.

Good thing you're not a real sex-crimes detective.

Actually, no I haven't. If you look at my posts, I mention that "some" have a problem and what could be a systemic problem.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 33):
Frankly, no there's not. Do you have something to refute that statement besides kneejerk political hate?

Yes there is disagreement. The editing, if true, does nothing to refute the fact that the employee told them how to avoid the law to facilitate an abortion for a child prostitute.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 33):
Seems to be. Hmmm. Interesting standards of proof you have there.

I can only go by what the elected Attorney General of Virginia said he has in his possession. Are you saying he is a liar?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 33):
I'm glad you know the policies and procedures of PP, and understand why they have them. I also like how you can tell someone's motive just by their actions.

FACT: PP says they fired the employee because of the tape. PP official statement does not deny the incident involving the employee happened. Does that meet your "standard of proof"?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 33):

FWIW, I'm anti-abortion. Seems like one of the few reasonable ones on either side.

FWIW, I have mixed feelings on abortion. I do know from personal experience that there are those within PP and out, who are extremist abortion pushers.(yes, I have been in Planned Parenthood) My wife is 6 months pregnant and we have run into workers within the medical system who seem intent on pushing women to abort. I find them abhorrent and intolerable. I have even less respect for those who help underage sex trafficking. Why are you arguing for them?
 
fr8mech
Posts: 6672
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:33 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
Guess what - You are never going to get 2/3rds of each House of Congress and 3/4ths of the several states to ban abortion.


I don't want an amendment banning abortion. The US Constitution and its amendments are a limit on what government may do, not a limit on The People. The one amendment that limited The People, was repealed.

This, quite simply, in my humble opinion, should be a States' rights issue, not a federal issue.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
I take issue with frauds.


Which is why you should be concerned if PP, or any other organization, is taking money while facilitating illegal activity, assuming they are.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
1) Get over your ridiculous, misplaced dislike of lawyers.


Actually, I don't have a problem with lawyers and count 2 amongst my friends. I take issue with some lawyer's use of the law as a political weapon for personal and political gain.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
BTW, certain types of fraud are good ways of getting yourself arrested. I wonder how long till this woman tries to break into someone's office and tap their phone? I hope she doesn't, but this has happened before.


She should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, if she does that.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 28):
With that rational numerous organizations and even branches of the military that has broken laws would all be cut off. Or just target ones that do something you don't personally agree with?


You may leave the military out of it. It is a part of the government that is already subject to oversight (does it always work, no). But, any private organization, profit or non-profit, should be able to account for their action or be cut-off from my (our) money.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:34 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 35):
Oh, so releasing classified, stolen information under the guise of "freedom of speech" is OK even if you are not an "accredited" journalist but wearing a hidden camera is not?

First of all, I'm not saying that wearing a hidden camera is not okay, since different jurisdictions have different laws on that - the point I was making is that should an exception for news organizations exist, Live Action shouldn't qualify. And nor should Wikileaks. But Wikileaks doesn't go around gathering information - information is sent to them. So you can't really compare what the two groups do.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):
Which is why you should be concerned if PP, or any other organization, is taking money while facilitating illegal activity, assuming they are.

Of course it should be cause for concern. But not cause for shutting the organization down, or even withholding funding. It is unreasonable to expect any organization to run perfectly smoothly and to never have any bad apples working for them. If Planned Parenthood takes the proper actions, then they've done their job. It's if they didn't do anything about it that would be justification for further action.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4641
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:42 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 36):
I mention that "some" have a problem and what could be a systemic problem.

This is called a straw-man argument, and is a logical fallacy. Not even Wikipedia allows for such terminology to be used.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 36):
The editing, if true, does nothing to refute the fact that the employee told them how to avoid the law to facilitate an abortion for a child prostitute.

So then why edit it? People generally aren't sneaky when they're telling the truth.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 36):
Does that meet your "standard of proof"?

Frankly, it doesn't. While it doesn't mean that it didn't happen, there's more than enough doubt cast on the original accuser to throw everything into question.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 36):
Why are you arguing for them?

I'm not; I'm arguing against you. I don't come up with a belief and make up stuff as I go along; I look at the facts and form an opinion from them. Just because I'm against abortions doesn't mean I have to believe every single person that comes along with "evidence" justifying my beliefs.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
fr8mech
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:49 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 38):
Of course it should be cause for concern. But not cause for shutting the organization down, or even withholding funding. It is unreasonable to expect any organization to run perfectly smoothly and to never have any bad apples working for them. If Planned Parenthood takes the proper actions, then they've done their job. It's if they didn't do anything about it that would be justification for further action.

And that's what I'm saying. Somebody had to kick the ant hill and see what else comes out. If the government (you know, the stewards of OUR money) isn't doing it, and the media isn't doing it, it's up to the people to do it. Now, who is going to do it? Is it reasonable to expect some one that agrees or supports the 'target' organization to do the kicking or is it going to be an opponent?.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:05 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 40):
Now, who is going to do it? Is it reasonable to expect some one that agrees or supports the 'target' organization to do the kicking or is it going to be an opponent?.

The stated goal of Live Action is not to figure out whether Planned Parenthood is up to anything. Their goal is to shut the organization down, whether it really deserves to be shut down or not. And groups like that have shown that they are perfectly willing to bend the truth, or even outright lie, in order to get what they want. Which is why they shouldn't be trusted - they're not a watchdog organization, they're an activist organization.

There's nothing legally wrong with what they're doing (assuming they stay within the laws of what conversations can be secretly recorded, etc.), but it's not honest, and I wouldn't put much stock in it.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
fr8mech
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:12 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
And groups like that have shown that they are perfectly willing to bend the truth, or even outright lie, in order to get what they want.

And they should be held to task when they do break the law or lie.

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
they're an activist organization

And this is a problem, why? The Left has a lot more 'activist' organizations that go way beyond 'bending the thruth'. The fact that they are an activist organization is a given.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:18 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 42):
The Left has a lot more 'activist' organizations that go way beyond 'bending the thruth'.

And their reports are generally disregarded by the general public, save for those who have signed on to their particular cause. I don't see why this group should be any different.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
mham001
Posts: 4287
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:06 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 39):
This is called a straw-man argument, and is a logical fallacy. Not even Wikipedia allows for such terminology to be used.

What are you going on about? I wrote that some within PP have been caught promoting illegal activities and you extrapolate that to the whole of PP and I'm the one making the straw man argument???

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 39):

So then why edit it? People generally aren't sneaky when they're telling the truth.

I don't know why they edited. And using your argument, we don't really know they did edit it. Even if they did edit it, it STILL does not refute the fact that PP has already fired the employee because of the tape.
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:13 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 44):
I don't know why they edited.

Because they can make things seem more egregious through the editing process.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 44):
Even if they did edit it, it STILL does not refute the fact that PP has already fired the employee because of the tape.

As they should have done.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:20 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):
You may leave the military out of it. It is a part of the government that is already subject to oversight (does it always work, no). But, any private organization, profit or non-profit, should be able to account for their action or be cut-off from my (our) money.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
Further, since this organization takes federal, and I assume, state money, why is the government not performing more of these investigations? An organization that breaks the law or facilitates others to break the law, should be cut-off. Yes, any organization.

Hello, pot kettle black!

Again you don't agree so punish them more severely.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
fr8mech
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RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:18 am

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 46):
Hello, pot kettle black!

Again you don't agree so punish them more severely.

You've lost me.

Any organization that takes our money should be subject to investigation. I exclude the military, because they have an internal investigative arm and also receive oversight from Congress and any number of other organizations. This would also include other government agencies.

Again, I don't care who takes the money, so long as they're on the up and up. And, if they're not, they need to be held to account.

I assure you, I am consistent on this point.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Geezer
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:37 am

RE: First ACORN, Now Planned Parenthood?

Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:19 am

After reading about 30 or 40% of the posts in this thread, I have come to some conclusions; first, there are an awful lot of people on A.net who could care less about "personal responsibility". The big "bru-haha" over abortion has been raging ever since I can remember, ( and I can remember longer than most, if not all of you ), and it still isn't solved, and it probably never will be solved. So arguing about abortion is kinda like "beating a dead horse"..........it's also an "exercise in futility" !

Let's look at the REAL problem here.........

quote= mham001, reply=15

So, the facilitation of underage sex trafficking by a national organization that receives public funding should just be overlooked and swept under the rug. Right.

THAT is the problem............here we have a national organization, RECEIVING TAX PAYER'S DOLLARS, passing out information as to how best to break the law. A lot of you think Planned Parenthood is a great thing, doing great work, etc etc etc. So send them YOUR damned money ! If you think sticking knives in unborn babies is "O.K.", ( and all liberals think it is O.K. ), then PAY for it ! But just like Acorn, you want EVERYONE to help foot the bill, every time some young "hottie" can't keep her legs together and gets knocked up, you want ME to help pay for it ! And every other law abiding citizen who hasn't broken a law in 25 years. That's the whole problem with the liberal view point.......you could care less about the irresponsible people who are creating all the problems, but when they cause the problems, ( like unwanted pregnancies ), you want EVERYONE ELSE to pay the bill !
Taking tax money from law abiding citizens and giving it to non-law abiding "schmucks" IS the PROBLEM.


Here's a great idea that will make some of you "cringe"..............if you are male, and you get ANYONE knocked up, you have two choices......you PAY for it......or you go to jail ! If you are female.......you better have some insurance, because the TAXPAYERS are sick and tired of paying for your "mistakes"; and if you make mistake #2.........the "system" will take surgical steps to preclude the possibility of a #3 "mistake". Now, in just one short paragraph, we have practically solved this country's whole economic problems ! ( Later on we'll solve the big dope problem )

I read one post from a guy who is a lawyer..........sounds like he thinks everyone hates lawyers. I sure don't hate lawyers. As long as they are honest, hard working, pay their fair share......I have no problem with lawyers. But, I'm sure you will have to agree with me..........the vast majority of lawyers tend to be very liberal; I don't see a lot of lawyers championing "personal responsibility", do you ? Of course there are exceptions.......Clarence Thomas comes to mind; he started out as a lawyer, and he believes in personal responsibility.

I really haven't paid a whole lot of attention to this big flap over PPH, but then I didn't have much use for them to start with.

Everyone on A.net has two things in common........you all like airplanes, and you all have an opinion. That's great; everyone should have an opinion. But remember this: we all have a different "point of view", which depends on our circumstances. Everyone's circumstances are different. Some are young, just starting out; many are "established" and making great incomes, ( and paying lots of taxes I'm sure ) And a few are "beyond" our big-money years, and just "enjoying life", ( and believe it or not, it really IS enjoyable when you don't have to go to work every day ) The problem is, most people tend to see life from THEIR perspective. I have to tell you something........this isn't an opinion.....this is a hard cold FACT..........YOU are not going to be young forever! YOU are not going to have the same "viewpoint" 40 years from now ! YOU are going to feel pretty much like I do, after you pay taxes for 45 years or so, and some "creep" wants YOU to help pay for all the problems created by all the irresponsible, lazy, dope heads who want to make a career out of "having fun" ( getting women knocked up ) and expecting YOU to help pay the bill ! That's a promise !
I guarantee it !

So get over this PPH BS; start thinking about something "important"...........like maybe how in the hell we can get some decent half-time entertainment at the Super Bowl for a change.............

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein

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