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Aaron747
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Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:14 pm

Diane Sawyer's plain biases aside, the Donald Rumsfeld interview on ABC last night was just embarassing. With an ego like this, the guy should have been an actor or rock star. He was defensive and defiant throughout the interview, although he actually appeared human when talking about his wife's illness. Bottom line - he will not accept any blame for failed DOD policies during Iraq:

Rumsfeld was reluctant to endorse Bush's assessment that the decision to draw down US troops shortly after the 2003 invasion of Iraq was "the most important failure in the execution of the war."

Telling Sawyer that assessment was "possible," Rumsfeld also cautioned that "the path you didn't take is always smoother."


Um, your boss, a bunch of generals, and military analysts all over the planet disagree with you sir. Can you just admit your assessment was wrong? Apparently not.

The admissions largely echoed his memoir, in which he laid blame for much of the failings and heavy bloodshed of the Iraq war on "too many hands on the steering wheel."

What is that supposed to mean? Had everyone at the table just listened to him, things would have turned out better?

Just as in his book, the former defense chief also ripped into some of George W. Bush's closest advisers, saying Condoleezza Rice lacked experience and Colin Powell showed poor management skills.

Perhaps those things are true, but if he really felt it was a dire situation, he should have made an impassioned case about his concerns to his boss. Both the National Security Advisor and Secretary of State are positions whose efficacy are essential to the success of a DefSec. What a rube  http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110208...aryiraqbookrumsfeld_20110208133019
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Klaus
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:25 pm

Rumsfeld? Blame? Does not compute.

For Rumsfeld, responsibility is when he's giving orders, they're executed without question and any failures can by definition never be his fault.

He's never understood what the word actually means.
 
AGM100
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:24 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Telling Sawyer that assessment was "possible," Rumsfeld also cautioned that "the path you didn't take is always smoother."



He is so right .... this is a pretty simple issue . You either agree with the war or you don't. If you don't ...then nothing Rumsfeld or anyone else say's really matters .

For instance ...
If you understand the war and agree with it ... the questions may be centered around troop levels , equipment types ...levels of destructive power , allied involvement and other policy issues. But If you are against the war .... none of that matters ... right ? I often hear anti war voices bring up disbanding the Iraqi Army .... I ask them .,.. why do you care ? You disagree with the entire effort ... what does it matter if we made major mistakes ..??? . (Other than ego stroking .... and feeling vindicated by you own intellect).

Rummy should have staid buried ....
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Aaron747
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:29 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 2):
Other than ego stroking .... and feeling vindicated by you own intellect

Are you suggesting that's what the former President was doing when he stated his opinion that the troop numbers used were a mistake? Can't have it both ways dude. Rumsfeld is a rube.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 2):
He is so right .... this is a pretty simple issue . You either agree with the war or you don't.

Um no, you either want the United States to look competent in all that it does, or you don't. I'm quite sure that's what the uproar was all about from the various career military professionals who took issue with Rumsfeld's troop number suggestions. The problem with Rumsfeld is there was no room for anyone else's opinion, and in most organizations, that's a significant management issue. He criticized Ms. Rice for "having meetings to make everyone feel good". What kind of crap is that? Meetings are useful as long as they are not excessive.
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Mir
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:48 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
The admissions largely echoed his memoir, in which he laid blame for much of the failings and heavy bloodshed of the Iraq war on "too many hands on the steering wheel."

What is that supposed to mean?

He's right - there were too many hands on the steering wheel. One too many. Specifically, his.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 2):
But If you are against the war .... none of that matters ... right ?

Not really, no.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 2):
I often hear anti war voices bring up disbanding the Iraqi Army .... I ask them .,.. why do you care ? You disagree with the entire effort ... what does it matter if we made major mistakes ..??? .

Because you can disagree with going to war but still want to win the war once you're in it. I didn't think going into Iraq was a good idea, but it was decided that it was going to happen, so once that decision was made, I wanted my government to run it competently.

-Mir
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AGM100
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:03 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
Rumsfeld is a rube.


Anyone who makes decisions at that level is going to be hated by many . I have been a CEO who has had to make decisions that people didn't like ... My mentor told me "If you are not pissing people off you are most likely not doing anything" . Rumsfeld is open to criticism ... have at it but his boss told him to invade a country by a certain date and that is what he did .. like it or not he did it with what he had at hand.
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
The problem with Rumsfeld is there was no room for anyone else's opinion


You actually believe that the SECDEF was not in discussions with the Military leadership ? And had a give and take with the men and women doing the job ? I just don't buy it ... but at the end of the day he had to make the tough call. Of course there is always going to be Generals who want to go in with a "dream army" and they are obviously correct... but that is true in any war.
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
Um no, you either want the United States to look competent in all that it does, or you don't


I happen to know a little about the prep and operational events that took place to move, equip and prepare our forces for the invasion. It was a immense undertaking ... the Military and CRAF elements did a amazing job leading up to the invasion and drive to Baghdad. To move the amount of equipment ,organize the logistics of ports of transit and the final arrival of the forces with reserve supplies in that amount of time is staggering.

I say again...if you don't agree with the invasion then none of that matters. Why would anyone be motivated to wish for success in a endeavour they disagree with ? Especialy when it is such a juicy politcal spring board ... ( not directed to you personally I don't know if you agree with the war or not).
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Aaron747
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:08 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
Why would anyone be motivated to wish for success in a endeavour they disagree with ?

Because they want their country to be that shining city on the hill?? ...just a thought.

You spent a lot of time responding to everything but the fact that Rummy's ex-boss doesn't agree with his assessment and I'm still wondering if you think it was out of need for "ego stroking" or "vindication of intellect."
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AGM100
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:24 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
Rummy's ex-boss doesn't agree with his assessment and



Of course I don't .... it does not surprise me that the President said that ., I was talking about folks who appose the war and then go on about how many Tanks we should have had. That's all ...

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
Because they want their country to be that shining city on the hill?? ...just a thought.



Sorry ...but the Democrats did not want the war to go well for Bush and Rumsfeld.. body bags meant votes and claiming the war was lost secured a Senate Majority leadership. Tough ? Maybe... but it is true.
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Aaron747
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:32 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
Sorry ...but the Democrats did not want the war to go well for Bush and Rumsfeld.. body bags meant votes and claiming the war was lost secured a Senate Majority leadership.

I have no idea what you're on about. This is not about Democrats - this is about a guy who can't take responsibility for anything. A real man can admit when he is or was wrong.
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Klaus
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:37 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
Anyone who makes decisions at that level is going to be hated by many .

Irrelevant here.

He was and still is openly shunning his responsibility. In a top-level job like his that is completely inexcusable, doubly so when his job involves life-or-death decisions.

You either accept and deal with your own failures as well as your successes or you have no business being in a responsible position.
 
Klaus
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:41 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
I was talking about folks who appose the war and then go on about how many Tanks we should have had. That's all

Being against the Iraq invasion under obviously false pretenses was a matter of basic common sense.

Being mindful of the required resources once the idiots at the top had stupidly commited the USA to at least salvage the wreckage as far as possible was and is a matter of competence and responsibility, both of which apparently lacking in Rumsfeld.
 
Mir
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:43 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
You actually believe that the SECDEF was not in discussions with the Military leadership ?

I believe he had discussions. I don't believe he paid much attention to them.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
Rumsfeld is open to criticism ... have at it but his boss told him to invade a country by a certain date and that is what he did .. like it or not he did it with what he had at hand.

And he sucked at it. Which is why he was, and still is, criticized.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
I happen to know a little about the prep and operational events that took place to move, equip and prepare our forces for the invasion. It was a immense undertaking ... the Military and CRAF elements did a amazing job leading up to the invasion and drive to Baghdad. To move the amount of equipment ,organize the logistics of ports of transit and the final arrival of the forces with reserve supplies in that amount of time is staggering.

The first part of the war (up to the fall of the Iraqi government) was very well done - nobody disputes that fact. But it was blindingly obvious, from many accounts (including Rumsfeld's own statements) that there was no plan for what to do after that.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
Why would anyone be motivated to wish for success in a endeavour they disagree with ?

Because it's good for the country as a whole. You don't have to think it's a good idea, you don't have to think it's an idea that's going to work, but when it comes to stuff like that, you do have to hope that it does work, even if you're trying to change it in the meantime. The alternative, in this case, is to be, at best, ambivalent to the needless deaths of US servicemen, the spending of billions of dollars more than necessary, and a tarnished international image. Why would anyone be in favor of any of those?

If it had been up to me, we wouldn't have gone into Iraq. But it wasn't up to me, and we did. Such is life - things don't always go your way. That doesn't mean I don't have a vested interest in what happens as a result of not agreeing with the decision.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
Especialy when it is such a juicy politcal spring board ...

Not everyone is a blind partisan.

-Mir
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AGM100
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:43 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 8):
A real man can admit when he is or was wrong.



I am happy he is not falling into the trap of "admitting " mistakes . That is exactly what his opponents what him to do .... our troops have suffered enough indignities by the anti war crowd .. the SECDEF should not further the effort. And he should not have written this book either .... it was bad judgement and timing IMO.
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Flighty
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:01 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
his boss told him to invade a country by a certain date and that is what he did ..

What his boss told him to do doesn't excuse his personal complicity in the slightest.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
I am happy he is not falling into the trap of "admitting " mistakes .

The judgment of such a man is irrelevant. As someone who belongs in a gas chamber, his moral subtleties are the last thing of interest.

I heard a funny firsthand story... Rummy was skiing in Taos NM. He went through the food line in the chalet. The cashier said, "Oh, I'm sorry. We don't serve war criminals here. You will have to leave." Then the cashier repeated himself. I guess Rummy had to leave. Take the story for what it's worth, a heart-warming and possibly true tale.
 
Klaus
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:01 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
I am happy he is not falling into the trap of "admitting " mistakes

What else do you think a responsible executive should do with mistakes when you think admitting them is out of the question?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:31 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
And he should not have written this book either .... it was bad judgement and timing IMO

He's been shopping around for book deals since the first few months after his resignation. He doesn't care what you or anyone else thinks anyway.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
I am happy he is not falling into the trap of "admitting " mistakes

It's a trap? Whatever. It's called being a stand-up guy.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
opponents

Like Bill Kristol, John McCain, Lindsey Graham, Trent Lott, Gen. Shinseki, Gen. Batiste, just to name a few?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
our troops have suffered enough indignities

Yeah, having been presided over by such an incompetent civilian leader, for one. I don't know about military members of your family, but those in mine couldn't stand the guy. Them and a lot of our servicemembers on this very forum as well.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:04 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):

The first part of the war (up to the fall of the Iraqi government) was very well done - nobody disputes that fact. But it was blindingly obvious, from many accounts (including Rumsfeld's own statements) that there was no plan for what to do after that.

Let's correct something that you may or may not consider a matter of semantics. Of course they had a plan for the post-major combat time-line. It may have been completely wrong for a variety of reasons, and commanders on the ground quickly saw that they needed to come up with something new on-the-spot, but there was a plan. As someone once said, a plan never survives first contact with the enemy intact. Sometimes they are slightly modified, sometimes they go right out the window.

That said, There is no question the Rumsfeld is far too in love with himself. GWB has accepted responsibility for mistakes he's made, why can't Rumsfeld over issues that clearly were under his direct control?
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Mir
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:20 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
As someone who belongs in a gas chamber

Okay, that's a little much. I've got no love for the guy, but to wish him dead is pushing it.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Of course they had a plan for the post-major combat time-line. It may have been completely wrong for a variety of reasons, and commanders on the ground quickly saw that they needed to come up with something new on-the-spot, but there was a plan.

Fair point - I'd agree that they did have a plan. I'd argue, however, that it was a very poorly constructed plan, based on idealistic scenarios and a willingness to play down the possible negative implications of an invasion to make it seem more palatable to the American public.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
As someone once said, a plan never survives first contact with the enemy intact.

This too is true, but there's a difference between a sound plan that doesn't pan out as intended and a crap plan that is all but assured of failure. I've seen enough evidence to suggest that the plan for post-war Iraq was of the latter sort, based on comments from members of the administration as well as from members of the military who had made their concerns known.

If your argument is that Rumsfeld was charged to develop a plan and did so, then I agree. But this isn't kindergarten, and there's no A for effort.

-Mir
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BN747
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:39 pm

I have two words for Rumsfeld...

Pat Tillman

..and I bet that whole entire subject... was completely avoided.

BN747
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vikkyvik
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:38 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 2):
I often hear anti war voices bring up disbanding the Iraqi Army .... I ask them .,.. why do you care ? You disagree with the entire effort ... what does it matter if we made major mistakes ..??

Seriously? I'm actually amazed that I just read that.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
Why would anyone be motivated to wish for success in a endeavour they disagree with ?

Say I disagree with sending astronauts to the Moon, or Mars, or something. Am I going to hope they fail, and possibly die? What kind of absurd logic is that?

If I disagreed with Apollo, would I be happy that the Apollo 1 astronauts died in that fire?

I know a lot of people who disagreed with the war. Not a SINGLE ONE hoped we failed and our soldiers died. No one should hope for that, whether or not you agreed with the initial decision.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
I am happy he is not falling into the trap of "admitting " mistakes

You know that the first step in correcting a mistake is admitting you made one, right?

It's not a trap - a real man can admit he screwed up. Now obviously, if he doesn't believe he did, then fine, but that's not what you said.
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Mudboy
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:31 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 19):
I know a lot of people who disagreed with the war. Not a SINGLE ONE hoped we failed and our soldiers died. No one should hope for that, whether or not you agreed with the initial decision.

You no man, I disagree with this, I do think there are many that hope we fail over here, and that the Iraqis fail, just so they can say, " I told you so". I am here in Iraq, and I have seen the improvements here, and I want this country to succeed, I will be proud to say that I was a part of giving this country a chance. So many lives have been lost here on both sides, and it would be sad to see it all for nothing. I do believe there are people that have so much hatred for the Bush administration, that even if 20 years from now, going into Iraq was the right thing, and Iraq is a thriving nation, these same people will never admit the they were wrong, but only time will tell?

As far as Rummy goes, he was an idiot, the Troops could have been much better equipped, fewer Soldiers would have died, so I am voting him into the azzhat HOF, but I am in no way qualified to do his job.
Stay Safe!

[Edited 2011-02-08 19:33:14]
 
Ken777
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:07 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 2):
He is so right .... this is a pretty simple issue . You either agree with the war or you don't.

Nope. A lot of people trusted the President and his Administration.

We believed the "intelligence" that there was a clear and eminent danger.

When that was clearly crap then the [b]reason[/] for our support evaporated.

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
He's right - there were too many hands on the steering wheel. One too many. Specifically, his.

Two too many in my book - you need to add Cheney into the equation for developing the WMD argument.

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
Because you can disagree with going to war but still want to win the war once you're in it.

It is more than acceptable for Americans to put a very high priority on our troops when it comes to war. We learned some harsh lessons in Vietnam - lessons that the Cheney & Rumsfeld obviously didn't learn.

How many Vietnam Vets do yo think are around, supporting those in the military, but having zero tolerance for those who are so casually and ignorantly indifferent of the fate of those troops.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
My mentor told me "If you are not pissing people off you are most likely not doing anything"

These days my preferred CEO is Steve Jobs, who mainly pisses off the competition. And Microsoft.

The key is that you can look at performance (company & share).

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
his boss told him to invade a country by a certain date and that is what he did .. like it or not he did it with what he had at hand.

Rummy was the Brilliant Mind behind the faster, reduced force. Maybe one reason he was so hot for the invasion was because it would let him prove his theories. It didn't take a lot of intelligence to see that the troops did a fantastic job in their drive to Bagdad. It was also pretty clear that Rummy hadn't understood that those same troops needed all the behind the lines support - and that wasn't there. Just like the post invasion planning was totally pathetic.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
but at the end of the day he had to make the tough call.

Bull. He could have demanded the same standards we we had in GW1. But then his theories would have been pushed off the table right of the start of planning.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
the Military and CRAF elements did a amazing job leading up to the invasion and drive to Baghdad.

They did an amazing job with one hand tied behind them.

The organization that had the best planning was Haliburton. With their CEO sitting in the White House that isn't really surprising. I would love to know how early they got the heads up.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
.but the Democrats did not want the war to go well for Bush and Rumsfeld

Believe it or not, Democrats (and even Moderates Liberals) are Americans and love their country as much as the hard right says they love it. And there are actually Democrats, Moderates and Liberals in the military and some who will always support their success.

But the Bush Administration's "war efforts" was a sham from day one and those in the administration who worked to start the war (the Rummies & Cheneys in the Administration) do not deserve the support of this country.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
body bags meant votes and claiming the war was lost secured a Senate Majority leadership. Tough ? Maybe... but it is true.

Not even close. The BS from the Administration was shoveled out without regard to the costs for our troops. 40,000 Purple Hearts later it is more than clear that their arguments were a farce, their planning incompetent and the war either an Ego War, or a a grab for the oil that clearly didn't go as hoped. And let's not forget the Stop Loss - one of the clearest signs you can find on the Administration's incompetence.

It is more than reasonable that Americans have little tolerance at the incompetence (and egos) in the Administration, especially when viewed in light of the KIAs, WIAs and troops who had to endure Stop Loss & multiple deployments with too little time at home to recover and re-eatablish their family relationships.
 
11Bravo
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:08 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
...our troops have suffered enough indignities...


I agree. I'm particularly distressed by the indignity that almost 5,000 US military personnel suffered when they were killed as a result of one of the most profound lapses of judgement in American history. It is truly amazing that you and your buddies continue to support Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush and the other imbeciles responsible for this pointless, shameful, and embarassing bit of half-assed leadership. They exercised catastrophically bad judgement, and you think that's great. Good call.
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cws818
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:34 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
Sorry ...but the Democrats did not want the war to go well for Bush and Rumsfeld..

Exactly - they, and everyone else, wanted the war to go well for the country.
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cws818
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:36 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
I am happy he is not falling into the trap of "admitting " mistakes . That is exactly what his opponents what him to do

Admitting mistakes can be, and often is, a sign of immense strength. Since Mr. Rumsfeld is neither God nor the Pope, were he to do so it would speak quite well of him.
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
ltbewr
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:24 pm

For Rumsfeld to ever admit blame for his part in policy in the Bush Administration would be admitting to war crimes. To ever admit would be placing himself and others in legal jeopardy although no one in the USA will ever go after them. Meanwhile decisions he and his associates made have further destabilized the Middle East, created more hatred and terror threats against the USA and our allies, killed and maimed for life 10000's of American soldiers and killed and mained maybe a million in our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq as well as put us into unmanageable Federal debt in the Trillions in supporting those wars beyond necessary. Thanks a lot Rummy.
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:23 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
I am happy he is not falling into the trap of "admitting " mistakes

For someone who opines endlessly on this board about the virtues of personal responsibility, this is an ASTONISHING statement.

Any person of character and personal strength is able to admit when they are/were wrong or made a mistake. It is not a trap and it is not a sign of weakness.
 
AGM100
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:44 pm

The only admission of guilt the SECDEF could possibly issue to satisfy most of you would be . ... " We should not have gone to Iraq". That is what you all want . I am aware that many Veterans dislike Rumsfeld ... I understand the complaints and they are valid. It would have been nice to have 500,000 troops to cover every square inch of the country .... Tanks on every street corner and all the bells and whistles required. But it did not happen and I am not sure it would have helped against the Al Quada terror killers anyway . It is quite possibe that our death toll would have been allot higher with thousands and thousands of troops covering the country.

Short of accepting blame for the entire invasion .... no apology is going to suffice for the anti war crowd. A admission of that would be astonishingly humiliating to our troops who sacrificed so much. Without that invasion ... Iraq would be in a horrible situation with Saddam gripping power or possibly his wonderful sons running the place. Time will be the judge of Secretary Rumsfeld ...time and only time.

Rumsfeld presided over many many changes in our military structure ...our military posture and philosophy. The High Tech faster lighter hard hitting force we have today is a effective model for the modern battlefield in many peoples opinion. He is not wholly responsible for it ... but he certainly deserves allot of credit and should not go apologizing for anything.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
iakobos
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:15 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 22):
It is truly amazing that you and your buddies continue to support Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush and the other imbeciles responsible for this pointless,

...add Paul Wolfowitz, John Bolton and the other smart members of the New American Century club and it is difficult not to qualify that fanatic bunch as war hungry fundamentalists.
I would be curious to read a US History book around the year 2030 to see how they are portrayed...
 
AGM100
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:25 pm

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 26):
For someone who opines endlessly on this board about the virtues of personal responsibility, this is an ASTONISHING statement.



I understand the courage to admitted mistakes .,.. I have made many ...and I have openly admitted some of them on here.

So what is one thing you would like to here the Secretary apologize for ? Please state something he should apologize for ....
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
windy95
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:29 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
That said, There is no question the Rumsfeld is far too in love with himself. GWB has accepted responsibility for mistakes he's made, why can't Rumsfeld over issues that clearly were under his direct control




I am disappointed in Rumsfeld lack of admission's. I was also very dissapointed in Bush when he did not dump Rumsfeld before the second election.
 
cargolex
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:48 pm

Quote:
" We should not have gone to Iraq"

Well, to be honest, we shouldn't have. There was no connection to 9/11, there were no weapons of mass destruction, and while the dictatorship there was deplorable, it wasn't really "our problem." There was no reason to go there, there was no pressing need. After 9/11, Saddam Hussein thoughtfully liquidated at least one major terrorist he'd harbored for years, Abu Nidal. It was a pointless, needless waste of human and financial capital, no two ways about it. And hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died, as well as five thousand additional Americans, as a result. The very least we could get is an apology. The very least. And an apology from people who still defend this absurd course of action wouldn't be bad either, after all, when people protested, they were called unamerican and told that if they didn't like it, they could just get out.

Quote:
Iraq would be in a horrible situation with Saddam gripping power or possibly his wonderful sons running the place.

You know, the problem with this perspective is the same problem that the lack of planning for the post-invasion recovery in Iraq. It supposes that whatever would replace Saddam Hussein would be necessarily better. If Muqtata Al Sadr ultimately gains control of Iraq, is that better or worse than if we had left Saddam Hussein there? You really can't say, because there's really no way to know. Saddam Hussein was a horrible dictator who killed indiscriminately and was guilty of genocide. There's zero debate over that. But who's place is it to determine, as outsiders, what's best for other people?

According to many in the world, George W. Bush is guilty of Genocide and invading a sovereign country, just like Saddam did in 1990. Would that entitle the rest of the world to invade the United States and depose him, simultaneously reformatting our government completely at great cost to our populace and infrastructure?

Quote:
He is not wholly responsible for it

No, he's not, but that doesn't mean that he's not responsible at all.

Accepting that it was not his decision to go to war - he is not responsible for that - it was his responsibility to try and plan ahead and make sure it was going to work out for the United States. He utterly failed at at that, and at making a forceful case about the consequences of occupation. Nobody in the Bush Administration wanted to believe that this would be anything but sunshine and light - it is the job of the President's advisors, particularly the secretary of Defense, to tell them about the worst things that could happen if we go ahead with a certain course of action. And to make the case forcefully that we need to be prepared for that eventuality.

Quote:
.. but he certainly deserves allot of credit and should not go apologizing for anything.

Credit for what? For being a bungler? For not doing his job? If I did my job that badly, I'd expect to have to apologize to somebody too and I'd be man enough to do it.
 
windy95
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:51 pm

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 31):
According to many in the world, George W. Bush is guilty of Genocide and invading a sovereign country, just like Saddam did in 1990. Would that entitle the rest of the world to invade the United States and depose him,

If only Bush 41 had the balls to finish Saddam the first time around when he did have WMD's then things might of gone much smoother.
 
AGM100
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:52 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 30):
I was also very dissapointed in Bush when he did not dump Rumsfeld before the second election.



Rumsfeld said the same thing in his interview last night .,.. He handed in his resignation and said it was a mistake of the President not to accept it. Sounds like a admission to me .
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
cargolex
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:54 pm

Quote:
If only Bush 41 had the balls to finish Saddam the first time around when he did have WMD's then things might of gone much smoother.

Well here's a rare instance where we agree. If Bush 41 had done more to support the anti-Hussein insurgency in Iraq in 1991-1992, Iraqis themselves would have toppled him and gotten rid of him in a manner, I think, not too dissimilar from what recently happened in Tunisia - except on a bigger scale. Iraqis would not have been vulnerable to Iranian influence at that time the way they are now and have been since the U.S. invasion, and the change would have been home-grown. I'm sure there would have been a civil war in Iraq after that, but it would have been Iraqis working out their politics between themselves, not at the hand of a foreign interloper.
 
AGM100
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:24 pm

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 31):
Well, to be honest, we shouldn't have

That is fair .... but you certainly cant expect Sec Rumsfeld to issue a apology for that. What good would come of that other than to satisfy Harry Reid , John Kerry and the current President . They are in need of tender validation right now I understand that ... but no way is Rummy going to give them that.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:29 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 25):
For Rumsfeld to ever admit blame for his part in policy in the Bush Administration would be admitting to war crimes.

Um not so at all. There are plenty of strategic and management blunders he made that have absolutely NOTHING to do with war crimes.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 27):
The only admission of guilt the SECDEF could possibly issue to satisfy most of you would be . ... " We should not have gone to Iraq". That is what you all want .

I'm not asking for that at all. Maybe some here want that, but that's not even the discussion here. The purpose of the thread was to examine why this man is incapable of taking responsibility for anything.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 27):
It would have been nice to have 500,000 troops to cover every square inch of the country

That's a bit overstating what others wanted, but that was not the only transgression. Actually the two things that really pissed off a particular servicemember in my family were his dismissive responses to troop questions ("you get what you get" or whatever that was) and his my-way-or-highway tack leading to the resignation of Gen. Shinseki.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 27):
no apology is going to suffice for the anti war crowd

Not asking for an apology, just to simply admit that he exhibited poor judgment on a few occasions and would like things to have gone differently.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 29):
So what is one thing you would like to here the Secretary apologize for

Not being a better listener. Not bringing serious concerns to the President. Seriously, if Condi and Powell were such a threat to the efficacy of the DoD, why did he not raise this with the President? Instead he just takes cheap shots at them in his book years after the fact. Only selfish jerks do that.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 33):
said it was a mistake of the President not to accept it

See...there he goes again, nothing he has done was wrong, only other people.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Ken777
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:34 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 32):
If only Bush 41 had the balls to finish Saddam the first time around when he did have WMD's then things might of gone much smoother.

Bush 41 had far more wisdom, both personally and in his group of advisors, than W. Remember, Stormin Norman was right up there at the top of the list who understood the area and he was satisfied with all that was achieved.

You also need to look at what will happen after kicking Saddam out of office. 41 understood that. W & Gang didn't have a clue - and it shows.
 
Mir
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:45 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 29):
So what is one thing you would like to here the Secretary apologize for ? Please state something he should apologize for ....

The poor handling of the post-war operation.

I'm not going to give him grief for the decision to go to war - he was only one among many who made that call. And if the post-war stuff had been managed better, it might well have been more successful than it turned out to be.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:21 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 38):

I'm not going to give him grief for the decision to go to war - he was only one among many who made that call. And if the post-war stuff had been managed better, it might well have been more successful than it turned out to be.

I saw Rumsfeld interviewed by Hannity last night. He said that one time, at the height of his unpopularity around 2004-5, Somebody told him in regards to all the heat he was getting, (I'm paraphrasing from memory here, so forgive any inaccuracies) "Don't let it get to you - they don't know what they're talking about." That advice came from none other than Bill Clinton.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
AGM100
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:51 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 36):
Instead he just takes cheap shots at them in his book years after the fact.



I just purchased the book .... I have not read the "cheap shots". I will read it over the next day or so and maybe my position on it will change .

Quoting Mir (Reply 38):
The poor handling of the post-war operation.


Do you think the Baathists Fedayeen and Al Queda did a better job ? Of course its easy to look back now and wish for something different . It was a war .... we should expect the enemy to have a say in the outcome . But how do you prepare for a enemy who blows up its own citizens in order to rally public opinion.. They blow up there own citizens in order to turn public opinion ? And John Kerry fell for it hook line an sinker ...

I like one of Rummy's quotes ... " The smoothest road is always the one you didn't take".

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 39):
"Don't let it get to you - they don't know what they're talking about." That advice came from none other than Bill Clinton.


Your right ... that is exactly what ole Bill said to him. And he was right ... they didn't know what they were talking about and they still don't .
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Ken777
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:19 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 29):
So what is one thing you would like to here the Secretary apologize for ? Please state something he should apologize for ....

We can start with his involvement in developing the fluff that there were actually WMDs in Iraq. 9/11 was a convenient reason to focus in on Saddam and Rumsfeld did it earlier than most.

Then we can look at his horrible Light, Fast Military philosophy that fails to deliver the proper level of support behind the fast moving front. It looked neat to see the tanks going full blast, but without the total support following just as fast it was a poor design.

We can also put up the horrible post-invasion planning. Obviously the Administration itself was incompetent in this area, but Rummy was one of the worst. He wanted the command of various things, until they went sour. Then he gave the responsibility away - and any blame that went with it.

And maybe he should apologize to the 40,000 KIAs & WiAs, their families and their friends for participating in a war that was totally unnecessary.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:33 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 41):
And maybe he should apologize to the 40,000 KIAs & WiAs, their families and their friends for participating in a war that was totally unnecessary.

He doesn't believe it was unnecessary, so that's both irrelevant and unrealistic.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 40):

I just purchased the book .... I have not read the "cheap shots". I will read it over the next day or so and maybe my position on it will change .

He was quoted saying Powell was a poor manager who allowed many leaks in the Department of State and Condi was an academic who just liked having feel-good meetings or whatever. Cheap shots.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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OA412
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:26 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
Sorry ...but the Democrats did not want the war to go well for Bush and Rumsfeld.. body bags meant votes and claiming the war was lost secured a Senate Majority leadership. Tough ? Maybe... but it is true.

I find it incredibly unfortunate that you are so blinded by partisanship that you would actually make such a statement. You honestly believe that Democrats were cheering each and every time a solider was killed in Iraq? I was, and am, firmly against the war, but I never once cheered when soldiers returned in body bags.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 8):
I have no idea what you're on about. This is not about Democrats - this is about a guy who can't take responsibility for anything. A real man can admit when he is or was wrong.

  

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Not everyone is a blind partisan.

Exactly.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
I am happy he is not falling into the trap of "admitting " mistakes . That is exactly what his opponents what him to do ....

Admitting to mistakes takes guts and a very strong character. His refusal to admit that his handling of the war was grossly incompetent in the face of overwhelming evidence pointing to this fact, tells me all I need to know about Rumsfeld's character.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
our troops have suffered enough indignities by the anti war crowd ..

Have they? How is it an indignity to a soldier if I would rather they not fight and die in a war based upon false pretenses? Seems to me that if the anti-war crowd had been listened to, 4400 American soldiers would still be alive today.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 20):
You no man, I disagree with this, I do think there are many that hope we fail over here, and that the Iraqis fail, just so they can say, " I told you so".

Not true, at least not as far as I'm concerned. My "I told you so" moment was when it was revealed, as so many of us already knew, that Saddam didn't really have any WMDs. As far as the Iraqis are concerned, the last thing I want is to see them fail. They suffered for years under Saddam's rule, then suffered under crippling UN sanctions that ended up punishing them rather than Saddam, and now they're suffering as a result of a misguided war.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 20):
that even if 20 years from now, going into Iraq was the right thing

I cannot envision a time when any reputable historian will argue that a pre-emptive war based upon false pretenses was the right thing for us to do.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 20):
and Iraq is a thriving nation, these same people will never admit the they were wrong, but only time will tell?

If in 20 or 30 or 100 years Iraq is thriving, it won't be because we invaded them and removed Saddam from power, mark my words. We invaded Iraq on the basis that Saddam had scores of WMDs ready to destroy the world at the flip of a switch. The basis for the war has been proven to be fraudulent, I don't think many of us anti-war types are about to admit that we were wrong about that.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 22):
I'm particularly distressed by the indignity that almost 5,000 US military personnel suffered when they were killed as a result of one of the most profound lapses of judgement in American history.

  

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 37):
Bush 41 had far more wisdom, both personally and in his group of advisors, than W. Remember, Stormin Norman was right up there at the top of the list who understood the area and he was satisfied with all that was achieved.

Exactly. I am not a fun of either Bush, but George HW Bush is a far more intelligent person than his son will ever be.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 37):
You also need to look at what will happen after kicking Saddam out of office. 41 understood that. W & Gang didn't have a clue - and it shows.

   Whatever plan GWB and company had was clearly overly-optimistic.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
Ken777
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:50 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 42):
He doesn't believe it was unnecessary, so that's both irrelevant and unrealistic.

If you read Woodward's two books (on GW 1 and GW 2) the differences are startling - especially the Rummy/Cheney actions leading up to GW 2. Or pushing us to GW 2, knowing it wasn't necessary.
 
Mudboy
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RE: Rummy Refuses To Accept Blame - Period

Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:05 am

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 31):
According to many in the world, George W. Bush is guilty of Genocide and invading a sovereign country, just like Saddam did in 1990. Would that entitle the rest of the world to invade the United States and depose him, simultaneously reformatting our government completely at great cost to our populace and infrastructure?

Dude, enough of this revenge BS. Genocide?? We did not go in to eradicate a race of people, or try to form the 51st state of the US, we removed a Gov., and are in the process of rebuilding, and giving it back to them, stop trying to lump this in with Nazi Germany, Rawanda, Balkins etc. because it is not. If you disagree with the war, fine! But get over this crap!

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