Ken777
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Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:10 pm

There was an interesting video on WaPo today covering the potential of the Government shutting down over the Budget Battles in DC.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...olitics/the-fast-fix/?hpid=artslot

So we have 3 weeks before we see how the Republicans & Tea Folks in the House end up, how the Senate responds and how the President responds.

In my situation I would find it "interesting" to see how the country AND the politicians handle a shut down. Last time wasn't very positive for the conservatives, but it did allow Clinton to have a second term.

If the battle really heats up it can turn out to be the most interesting political news for 2011, or at least the first half of hte year.

So now everyone has the opportunity of putting down their opinions on IF there will be a shut down, opinions on who wold be to "blame" politically and if you would be impacted. Overseas posters would, hopefully, bring in how such a shutdown would be seen where they live.
 
gatorfan
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:11 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

We can only hope!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:50 pm

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 1):

We can only hope!

I think that we will see how important the government is really quickly.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
b727
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:45 pm

I kind hope the goverment does. We still give billions to oil companies even though the are at record high profit levels. We the people need to shut the county down and let it be known that were done with getting ass raped at the pump.



B727
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gatorfan
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:03 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
I think that we will see how important the government is really quickly.

The last time the government shut down (when Clinton was in office), it had zero effect on me. In fact, vital gov't departments will remain open. The FAA will be staffed, the army will be on patrol, the Coast Guard will protect our coast. Perhaps a shut down will show us how little we need such a big government.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:23 pm

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 4):

The last time the government shut down (when Clinton was in office), it had zero effect on me. In fact, vital gov't departments will remain open. The FAA will be staffed, the army will be on patrol, the Coast Guard will protect our coast. Perhaps a shut down will show us how little we need such a big government.

Oh, yes. Because the FAA, DoD, etc. are all such tiny parts of the government.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Ken777
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:13 pm

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 4):
Perhaps a shut down will show us how little we need such a big government.

If we have to tell military personnel in a war zone that we can't pay them, or send their pay to their families waiting back home.

At least various monthly checks, like Social Security and VA will have been paid before the Republicans pull the plug.
 
seb146
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:15 pm

At the base of all this is the right-wing screaming and shouting that Obama ran up a huge deficit. But, in reality, it was the right and their policies that did it. Obama simply put the "off budget" spending by the right on budget. The right did not like what they saw. They have no one to blame but themselves. Government in general is a problem, but, when the blame game starts anew, let's put blame where blame belongs. I know it will not happen, but I would like to make that statement.
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
dxing
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:54 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Oh, yes. Because the FAA, DoD, etc. are all such tiny parts of the government.

Compared to entitlement spending that would be a yes.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 6):
If we have to tell military personnel in a war zone that we can't pay them, or send their pay to their families waiting back home.

Essential services will remain intact to include the forces deployed overseas and their families at home.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
But, in reality, it was the right and their policies that did it. Obama simply put the "off budget" spending by the right on budget

He did? Where and when? No budget was passed last year, just one continuing resolution after another. Please elaborate, I'm fascinated by statements with no logical support. On top of that the democrats were in power in Congress, you know, that's where "budgets" come from, from 2006 to 2010, so what were they hiding?

Shame the President can't take his own advice which was to rise above politics as usual and solve this. A good first step would be to embrace the nonpartisan debt reduction panels ideas to heart. You know, the panel he created to find a way to cut the deficit and reduce the debt? Yet his budget contains none of their substantive recommendations. Guess that's just a little to much "hope and change" to ask for?
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Ken777
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:55 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
Compared to entitlement spending that would be a yes.

And how much money has the Social Security Trust loaned the Treasury? And how much interest (compound interest) has the Treasury added to those loans?

How does that compared to, say, loans made by China? Or the total debt?

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
Essential services will remain intact to include the forces deployed overseas and their families at home.

And who is going to pay those funds? The Tooth Fairy or Mother Goose?

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
On top of that the democrats were in power in Congress, you know, that's where "budgets" come from, from 2006 to 2010, so what were they hiding?

And Republicans were right there in the Senate with their Secret Holds and Filibusters. Remember? That's why we didn't finish last year with a budget being passed.

So now we'll see if the Republicans can perform with their power in the House.

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
A good first step would be to embrace the nonpartisan debt reduction panels ideas to heart.

Well, the Republicans could have picked that up when they took the oath this year. What happened?

There should be no reason why they couldn't pick the commission report up as a guide.


Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
You know, the panel he created to find a way to cut the deficit and reduce the debt?

And there were Republicans on the Commission - including one of my Senators - so why don't the Republicans start using the Report?
 
dxing
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:55 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
How does that compared to, say, loans made by China? Or the total debt?

Again, if you loan money from your wallet to your pocket, and then spend that money, you can't wonder why there is no money in your pocket to pay back to your wallet. By allowing a unified budget to exist for 40+ years the money that should be in the bank for the tidal wave of individuals that are about to swamp SS and medicare has been spent. In order to recoup it at the current worker to retiree ratio current workers, and their children, would have to pay almost 50% in FICA taxes alone. The system is just now experiencing its first "in the red" year and by all accounts, it will only get worse every year for the next 15 years. When you borrow money from an outsider and youself, the outsider gets paid back first.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
And who is going to pay those funds? The Tooth Fairy or Mother Goose?
http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/12/17/what-shuts-down-exactly

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):

And Republicans were right there in the Senate with their Secret Holds and Filibusters. Remember? That's why we didn't finish last year with a budget being passed.

Again, the democratic party held a large majority in the House and and no filibuster was in play in the Senate since no budget was up for a vote.

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/104635-dems-wont-pass-budget

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0410/35647.html

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
Well, the Republicans could have picked that up when they took the oath this year. What happened?

In fact they are going farther on some things while not going far enough on others. As of this morning the House passed it's first resolution which cut 50 billion from the budget. That's a start but not enough has entitlement spending has yet to be tackled.

[Edited 2011-02-19 06:04:22]
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:03 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):

The point was to show how we can survive easily without the myriad smaller wasteful government programs. No one is making the argument that we don't need government....we can just get by with a good bit less than we have.
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Ken777
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:48 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 10):
Again, if you loan money from your wallet to your pocket, and then spend that money, you can't wonder why there is no money in your pocket to pay back to your wallet.

The Social Security Trust is still a legal entity that loaned money to the US Treasury.

Defaulting on either the principle or the interest will be exactly the same as defaulting on any other legal loan.

You can't hide that reality with a pocket & wallet argument. It doesn't matter that you generation is enjoying the infrastructure those loans paid for, it appears that your generation is too self centered to stand behind the nation's financial obligations.

Quoting dxing (Reply 10):
As of this morning the House passed it's first resolution which cut 50 billion from the budget.

$61 Billion cut in the House Bill this morning. Now it goes to the Senate where Senators will do their job. In the end we'll see what goes to the President for signing, but I believe that the government will shut down before the House will work with the Senate.
 
sccutler
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:15 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
At the base of all this is the right-wing screaming and shouting that Obama ran up a huge deficit.

No, it is not.

Rational observers (of whom one minds members in both parties) note that persistent overspending by the federal government, coupled with excessive federal requirements heaped upon states, has caused our problems.

Note well: President Bush (43) could have wielded his veto pen and sent congress a compelling message about spending- but did not. Bad deal.

President Obama could have done the same, and has not. The rate at which Congress increased spending during President Obama's first two years is staggering, and utterly without precedent - more a drunken frenzy than anything else - but it's not as if they invented deficit spending. For the first time, however, it seems more likely than not that the true intent is to gut the value of the dollar, and this is criminal.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
In the end we'll see what goes to the President for signing, but I believe that the government will shut down before the House will work with the Senate.

In the end we'll see what goes to the President for signing, but you believe that the government will shut down before the houses of congress will work together. for the better.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
NorthstarBoy
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:37 pm

Sigh. I get so tired of the republicans and their rush to bow and scrape to the almighty tea party and their mega rich backers who make no bones that they want to pay as little as possible in taxes.

IMO the tea party movement should have been killed in its infancy by the mainstream GOP growing a pair and demanding that these nut jobs form their own political party rather than attaching themselves to the GOP like a parasite.

I can only hope that if there is a shutdown, blame will be placed where it belongs: squarely on the shoulders of the tea party. Hopefully, the american public will finally see these people for what they are: a sham invented to do nothing more than protect the wealth of the top 1 percent from an overly greedy government (in their opinion) that would like nothing better than to bring socialism upon america (in their opinion). Finally, I hope that the end result is the removal from office of every one of those tea party candidates and the restoration of sanity and bi partisanship back into the government.

IMO none of this talk of a government shutdown would be happen if the GOP weren't so scared shitless of the tea party and their backers. Time to show the tea party the door.....for good.....and get back to bi partisan government and cooler heads prevailing.
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DocLightning
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:03 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):

Compared to entitlement spending that would be a yes.

Tell me, do you know what portion of the national budget goes to the DoD?

About 1/5.

Do you honestly believe that we need to be spending that much on the military? Hell by doing away with "cost-plus" contracts, we could cut the military budget probably by a third without affecting anything tangible just by no longer forcing units and contractors to use all available funds.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Ken777
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:06 pm

Quoting sccutler (Reply 13):
note that persistent overspending by the federal government, coupled with excessive federal requirements heaped upon states, has caused our problems.

We had a massive tax cut, followed by a very expensive war. There was no effort made in the Bush/Cheney Years to spread the burden of the war. No tax increases and existing military personnel were forced to shoulder the burden of the war, with Stop Loss forced retention after completion of enlistment and abnormal levels of deployment with insufficient time at home for recovery & retraining.

No efforts were made to ease spending, or to increase taxes to cover the excessive spending. Regulation and oversight of industries related to the housing market were tossed aside, leading to a housing crisis that continues today.

Addressing those problems alone will require increasing taxes as well as sending cuts. Then we can address other spending. But worrying about Public Broadcasting because your nose is out of joint isn't going to get this country very far.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 13):
President Obama could have done the same, and has not.

In all fairness, Obama took the oath of office as the nation was falling pretty fast on the economic side. Reasonable economists have called it the Great Recession and more than a few were legitimately worried about a true depression.

It is not unexpected that some heavy jolts were needed to the economy and some industries.

But what have we seen since? Business has rebounded and is delivering profits (and repaying government loans), but business has not started re-hiring. All their profits and cash mean nothing to the economy if they will not invest in growth, and without growth we will loose one important method of reducing the national debt.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 13):
but you believe that the government will shut down before the houses of congress will work together.

I believe that the Tea Party is taking themselves so seriously that they will push for the country to shut down. starting March 4th. There will be Social Security payments made on the 3rd of March, with the next round due on the 10th. Basically that gives the Tea Party until the 9th to gloat, flutter around and then compromise before causing some major crisis with a lot of elderly in the 25% of SS recipients who do not get the benefit.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 14):
I get so tired of the republicans and their rush to bow and scrape to the almighty tea party and their mega rich backers who make no bones that they want to pay as little as possible in taxes.

For this election cycle the GOP has to let the Tea Party have its way to a degree significantly higher than a typical GOP Freshman. But the Tea Party is based in some part on the concept that they are not going to accept a tax increase or other compromise. That is their down fall over time. Cutting alone will simply generate more unemployment and slower growth of the economy, adding to the national debt instead of bringing it down.

So let them wrap themselves in the flag and sing ballads about Paul Revere. I simply believe it is a short term rise in odd judgement that cannot deliver anything but more wealth to the wealthiest 10% in the country.
 
gatorfan
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:23 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 6):
If we have to tell military personnel in a war zone that we can't pay them, or send their pay to their families waiting back home.

What part of the following didn't you understand?

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 4):
In fact, vital gov't departments will remain open. The FAA will be staffed, the army will be on patrol, the Coast Guard will protect our coast.
 
dxing
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:01 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
The Social Security Trust is still a legal entity that loaned money to the US Treasury.

The Social Security Trust is a part of the U.S. government, same as the Treasury. One department of the government loaned money to another, from your wallet to your pocket.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
You can't hide that reality with a pocket & wallet argument. It doesn't matter that you generation is enjoying the infrastructure those loans paid for, it appears that your generation is too self centered to stand behind the nation's financial obligations.

It does matter that your generation spent your retirement funds with absolutely no thought on how to repay them. As has been shown to you, very little of that money went to infrastructure over the 40+ years of the unified budget. It's too bad that your generation was so self centered as to push that debt on to your children. If you wanted those things so badly you should have been willing to pay for them up front.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 13):
Note well: President Bush (43) could have wielded his veto pen and sent congress a compelling message about spending- but did not. Bad deal.

Absolutely correct. Bush 43 was not a true fiscal conservative. He was for lower taxes which is a good thing, but failed, as did all his predecessors and the current occupant, to tackle the elephant that is entitlement spending.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
$61 Billion cut in the House Bill this morning

By the time it leaves conference and heads to the President it will be 50 billion.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Tell me, do you know what portion of the national budget goes to the DoD?

About 1/5.

And do you know how much goes to SS, medicare, interest on the growing debt (and only getting bigger), welfare and other mandatory entitlement spending? How about half. I emphasize mandatory because unlike those others, spending on defense, even though it is specifically mentioned in the Constitution as one of the things the federal government is actually responsible for, is completely discretionary.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Do you honestly believe that we need to be spending that much on the military?

No and I have been on record for years as saying that when we look at cuts, defense will have to be included.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:34 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 18):

And do you know how much goes to SS, medicare, interest on the growing debt (and only getting bigger), welfare and other mandatory entitlement spending?

Yes. It's mandatory. And Medicare needs to be fixed.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Ken777
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:58 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 18):
The Social Security Trust is a part of the U.S. government, same as the Treasury. One department of the government loaned money to another, from your wallet to your pocket.

That's simply a pathetic excuse to try to default on government loans. Gotta love that "Die Fast Old People" approach by the Me Me Generation.

Quoting dxing (Reply 18):
It does matter that your generation spent your retirement funds with absolutely no thought on how to repay them.

We pay into the program while we are working, just like our fathers and grandfathers. It's the generations after us that try so hard to weasel out of their responsibilities.

We built the roads you drive on and the airports you fly through and all your generation does is try to wimp out of paying your part.

Quoting dxing (Reply 18):
By the time it leaves conference and heads to the President it will be 50 billion.

And after all the dust has settled we'll see what part of the deficit will be paid for by "cuts" and what part by increasing taxes.

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 17):
What part of the following didn't you understand?

So members of the military will continue to obey orders. That's not a big deal - the same as when I served.

What you did not explain is where the funds for military families will come from. If we are past out debt limit we don't have legal funds to pay them with.
 
sccutler
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:50 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):


No efforts were made to ease spending, or to increase taxes to cover the excessive spending.

I believe I was pointing that out...

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
Regulation and oversight of industries related to the housing market were tossed aside, leading to a housing crisis that continues today.

Principal cause of the housing crisis was excessive lending to unqualified borrowers... a bad call by any measure, but if you wish to lay the blame on Republicans (alone), you're disregarding reality.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):

In all fairness, Obama took the oath of office as the nation was falling pretty fast on the economic side.

And this excuses an orgy of spending how?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
Business has rebounded and is delivering profits

This is certainly not the case in smaller businesses...

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 20):

We pay into the program while we are working, just like our fathers and grandfathers. It's the generations after us that try so hard to weasel out of their responsibilities.

We built the roads you drive on and the airports you fly through and all your generation does is try to wimp out of paying your part.

That may be one of the most ludicrous sets of comments I've seen here. The proportion of the productive economy gobbled-up by federal spending, and by spending by states mandated by federal regulation, is ever-increasing. It is in every possible way unsustainable, and increasing taxation simply won't help now. There was a time when American taxpayers were taxed substantially less than their counterparts in other developed countries - this is simply no longer the case, and we will consign ourselves to third-world status, and soon, if the ship is not righted.

---

Suggestion: If your comments here require that you lay blame on one party or another, you're probably not ready to contribute in a meaningful way to the discussion (and this is not offered in response to any particular user's posts).

We're fiddling, and Rome is burning.
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dxing
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:54 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Yes. It's mandatory. And Medicare needs to be fixed.

It's only mandatory because of the law behind the programs, the Constitution does not specify that the federal government is responsible to the citizens to ensure that they have anything like SS, medicare, or an "affordable health care act". It does however specify, in clear and certain terms, that the federal government is responsible for the common defense of the States.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 20):
That's simply a pathetic excuse to try to default on government loans.

That is just completely igonoring the plain fact that the Social Security administration is an independent arm of the federal government just as the Treasury is a part of the federal government. You can call it any insulting name you wish but it does not change the fact that the government loaned itself money for 40+ years at the citizens expense.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 20):
We pay into the program while we are working, just like our fathers and grandfathers. It's the generations after us that try so hard to weasel out of their responsibilities.

You paid into the program and it, by a vote of the legislators you voted in, voted that money right back out with absolutely no plan in place to pay it back other that to kick the can down the road. Now you expect the younger generations to pay of the loan that you in essence made to yourselves, even though those younger generations had no say in the matter. If you should run short of cash in your retirement do you plan to raid your childrens bank accounts using the logic that they are only repaying what you spent on them when they were younger? The logic is the same.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 20):
We built the roads you drive on and the airports you fly through and all your generation does is try to wimp out of paying your part.

You built the roads and airports but you did not pay for them. If you had they would be paid for and your SS money would all be there waiting for you. You spent the money, enjoyed the roads and airports, and now expect the younger generation to pick up the tab that you accrued.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 20):
And after all the dust has settled we'll see what part of the deficit will be paid for by "cuts" and what part by increasing taxes.

There will be tax increases, no way around that. But hopefully this time they will at least be matched by identical amounts being cut from the federal budget.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
windy95
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:56 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Please...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
I think that we will see how important the government is really quickly

To the recipients yes we will see how important wealth distrubution is.. To the donors we can only hope.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Oh, yes. Because the FAA, DoD, etc. are all such tiny parts of the government

Essential personel do not stop working. The last time around we continued to our job in the military. Nothing stopped.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
At the base of all this is the right-wing screaming and shouting that Obama ran up a huge deficit. But, in reality, it was the right and their policies that did it.

You really have no clue on this do you. You continue to shout the same theme over and over ignoring the fact that the Pelosi lead congress spent more money than any other in history. More debt from Obama and Pelosi and Reid continue to be ignored. Bush and the Republicans have their share but stop ignoring the lions share that can be attributed to the Pelosi and Reid congress.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
And how much money has the Social Security Trust loaned the Treasury? And how much interest (compound interest) has the Treasury added to those loans?

It has made no interest. Loaning money to yourself does not make you any money. Stop perpetuating this lie.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Do you honestly believe that we need to be spending that much on the military?

Seeing how it is one of the few enumerated powers, yes. Savings from fraud , waste and abuse are still needed but seeing how this id one of the few things the Feds are authroized to do under our constitution we need to continue Defense spending.

Quoting dxing (Reply 22):
It's only mandatory because of the law behind the programs, the Constitution does not specify that the federal government is responsible to the citizens to ensure that they have anything like SS, medicare, or an "affordable health care act". It does however specify, in clear and certain terms, that the federal government is responsible for the common defense of the States.

     
 
Ken777
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:17 pm

Quoting sccutler (Reply 21):
Principal cause of the housing crisis was excessive lending to unqualified borrowers..

Unqualified buyers slipped into houses via Liar Loans. The people making the Liar Loans had major financial benefits from selling houses to those they knew could not afford them. Even if there was only one mortgage payment made before foreclosure on these Liar Loans everyone still made money. Everyone simply relied on home inflation to cover their asses.

And so they resold the homes with more Liar Loans.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 21):
And this excuses an orgy of spending how?

Your preference was that Obama's Administration take no action at all with the economy spiraling down?

The Great Recession was only a myth?

We would have been fine with most major banks crashing, along with companies like AIG?

Let 'em all fail?

Are you assuming that we would have al rebounded by now?

Have lower unemployment?

Quoting sccutler (Reply 21):
The proportion of the productive economy gobbled-up by federal spending, and by spending by states mandated by federal regulation, is ever-increasing.

And one reason is that we have had a contraction in the private sector. Companies are now becoming profitable, have the cash available, but are not investing in growth. And growth of the economy is one of the critical approaches to reducing the national debt.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 21):
There was a time when American taxpayers were taxed substantially less than their counterparts in other developed countries - this is simply no longer the case, and we will consign ourselves to third-world status, and soon, if the ship is not righted.

There was a time when the top tax rate was 90% and the company was better managed that we have now. That's because moderate Republicans were professional in their management of the economy - just like Democrats. Neither party paid homage to groups like the Tea Party.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 21):
If your comments here require that you lay blame on one party or another, you're probably not ready to contribute in a meaningful way to the discussion (and this is not offered in response to any particular user's posts).

I've popped both parties over my years, moved from a conservative to a moderate and have been (recently) called a acid head socialist because I'm not a fanatic right wing.

These days the hard right is so obsessive that a middle class moderate veteran is called an acid head socialist?

Do I faithfully follow the Democrats? Nope. I even voted for Bush II, but only the first time. Got burned big time.

I also go back to previous experiences, be they from serving in the Navy or living in Australia.

Of course any time I bring up options that relate to medical environments that are successful, but not Born In America, I become a socialist. I think I was also a communist a time or two also.

What I would hate to see is this board to be locked into a hard rights only position.

Quoting dxing (Reply 22):
That is just completely igonoring the plain fact that the Social Security administration is an independent arm of the federal government just as the Treasury is a part of the federal government.

You're still working hard to avoid the issue that the Social Security Trust is a legal entity that has accepted retirement money from Americans and has loaned that money to a legal entity to allow the SURPLUS to grow. That helped America to grow, but you sure work hard discrediting all the benefits you are receiving.

Quoting dxing (Reply 22):
You can call it any insulting name you wish but it does not change the fact that the government loaned itself money for 40+ years at the citizens expense.

We've borrowed money from the SS Trust and others for major infrastructure expenses and for military costs. A carrier might be paid for over a shout period of time, but provides service over a far longer period. Same with USAF planes, Army tanks, roads, bridges, airports, etc. Long term investments that you want to stop even interest payments on? If your generation can make some minimal efforts at maintenance then they will be there for you and your children. I have little hope, however, for your generation making any efforts for your grandkids.

But then, hey, I'm just the acid head socialist on the board - what do I know about long term investments?

Quoting dxing (Reply 22):
You spent the money, enjoyed the roads and airports, and now expect the younger generation to pick up the tab that you accrued.

And you don't benefit from the Interstate System, or the airports and related investments?

Get real, your income appears to be related to working in the airlines. How much government money goes into IAH?

And how much federal money has gone into the freeway system there? I can remember generations ago when the Southwest Freeway was built. Now there are private freeways (and, yes, I have a sticker on my windshield) andprople are paying to use them. But out SS Trust dollars on loan built a lot of roads in Houston.
 
windy95
Posts: 2658
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:23 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24):
Unqualified buyers slipped into houses via Liar Loans. The people making the Liar Loans had major financial benefits from selling houses to those they knew could not afford them



Way to cover for the people who refuse to take personal responsibility.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24):
You're still working hard to avoid the issue that the Social Security Trust is a legal entity that has accepted retirement money from Americans and has loaned that money to a legal entity to allow the SURPLUS to grow
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24):
We've borrowed money from the SS Trust and others for major infrastructure expenses and for military costs




Your still working hard to say that taking a loan from yourself and paying interest to your self is somehow making you money? And then when you are so far in debt that you cannot pay off those loans to your self then what happens to your precious IOU's. Oh wait tax the providers more so the looters can continue to collect "free" benefits.
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9061
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:03 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Way to cover for the people who refuse to take personal responsibility.

Like those selling homes to people who would never be able to afford them? They made a lot of money.

Or the banks that went "wink, wink,nudge, nudge, say no more"? They made a lot of money.

Or the insurance companies who issued coverage thinking they would not get caught? They made a lot of money

Some huge profits. Enough to sell a home to a dead man.

And a lot of people took advantage of the situation, getting into a home with "low interest" that they thought would be re-written later before the interest rate went up. And how many who knew they could not afford the home bought it anyway because the real estate agent slipped them some cash to do so?

The largest mountain of lost personal responsibility is from those who made a financial killing of playing the game in the years before the crash.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Your still working hard to say that taking a loan from yourself and paying interest to your self is somehow making you money?

Well, under your approach why should you pay taxes at all? Keep all your money, live off the investments we have made and then pass the problems on to your kids, who might actually man up and clean up your mess.

Maybe they will learn integrity and moral standards at school, or from their friends. I sure don't see them having a chance of getting it at home these days.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Oh wait tax the providers more so the looters can continue to collect "free" benefits.

Well, the Social Security Trust still has very legal loans out to the Treasury, the younger generations still drive on the roads, use the airports, go to the schools. Lots of free benefits that they are fighting really hard to avoid paying for. They are the ones looting our retirement. But, hey - they really, really W-A-N-T that $30K to $100K car (or truck) and the McMansion. Why should old folks get any of their retire investment back?
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:18 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24):
You're still working hard to avoid the issue that the Social Security Trust is a legal entity that has accepted retirement money from Americans and has loaned that money to a legal entity to allow the SURPLUS to grow. That helped America to grow, but you sure work hard discrediting all the benefits you are receiving.

Not at all. The problem is that the loans were made with absolutely no legitimate plan to pay them back. They are backed with paper, with no actual collateral, from the same entity that is making the loan. That would not be tolerated by government regulators overseeing a bank or finance house, yet for some reaons the government thinks its ok for them to do this. Talk about "liar" loans, the federal government led the way when it comes to "borrowing" from itself for 40+ years. And your generation kept voting people that continued that scam in for decades.

The reason there was a surplus is that more people were paying in than were taking out. Now the situation is almost reversed, the ratio of people taking out versus paying in is much smaller hence no surplus, and no real way to pay back the money that was "borrowed" save imposing confiscatory tax rates on those that are working, or cutting benefits to those that allowed the money to be "loaned" out without a firm repayment plan, or some of both. No matter what an adjustment will have to be made to the system in order to keep it, and the federal government, solvent.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24):
We've borrowed money from the SS Trust and others for major infrastructure expenses and for military costs.

Yes your generation did. Unfortunately without a firm method for repayment. It was like taking out a loan to build your house, and passing the payments off to your unborn children. Great for you, not so great for your children.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24):
If your generation can make some minimal efforts at maintenance then they will be there for you and your children. I have little hope, however, for your generation making any efforts for your grandkids.

The time for "minimal" efforts has come and gone. The time for that was back in Reagans day and the democrats did everything they could to portend that the GOP was out to starve granny and see her tossed out on the street with a can of dog food. A partial soloution was offered by Bush43 and it would have worked but again, misrepresentation by the democrats killed that idea. Now, after spending 4 years sitting on their hands in Congress, the democrats are again saying it is up to the GOP to come up with a plan so they can again denounce it as trying to toss granny out on the street with a can of dog food in her hand, meanwhile offering none of their own. Unfortunately for them there was a bipartisan commision set up by a President of their own party that has put forth a workable plan so they'll really need the overwhelming help of a sympathetic press to pull the wool over everyones eyes this time.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24):
And you don't benefit from the Interstate System, or the airports and related investments?

Of course I do, I also pay fuel taxes which fund over 90% of the maintanence for them, and airport taxes that fund the majority of maintanence for it. What your generation did not do is pay for any of those roads or airports, or aircraft carriers. You borrowed some of the money and never paid it back. It is now left to younger generations to pay it back, and provide for you at the same time. Since there are far fewer workers to retirees and will be every year from now until the middle of the century, the burden on the younger genrations will be much higher than it was for you or I since they not only have to support us, but pay back the loans that your generation made to itself.

You can try and be as insulting as you wish but those are the facts plain and simple. If your generation had paid for what they wanted up front by virtue of higher taxes, the same higher taxes you wish to saddle the younger generation with, the SS surplus would be there, in cash, waiting for you. Instead you spent it with no firm plan to repay it and now expect the younger generation to pick up your tab.

I hope the GOP has the guts to stand up this time and say no more, we're going to cut this monstrosity down to size and stop expecting the States to do things we tell them to do without providing any support.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
windy95
Posts: 2658
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:53 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
Like those selling homes to people who would never be able to afford them? They made a lot of money.

Or the banks that went "wink, wink,nudge, nudge, say no more"? They made a lot of money
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
And how many who knew they could not afford the home bought it anyway because the real estate agent slipped them some cash to do so?

Once again you wash away personal responsibility. Who cares what the realtor's, bank's or insurance companies offered. The people still had to say yes and sign the bottom line.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
The largest mountain of lost personal responsibility is from those who made a financial killing of playing the game in the years before the crash

How does making money equate to lost personal responsibility?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
Well, under your approach why should you pay taxes at all?

Exactly, why should I pay taxes for Social Security, Medicare and Obamacare if I choose not to use the system. Why am I being forced to partake in a system that I have no desire to use.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
Well, the Social Security Trust still has very legal loans out to the Treasury

B.S. your generation of Congressman and Senators raided and looted the sytem with empty IOU's that they had no intention of paying back. And now you want them payed back on my dime with more taxes...unbelievable.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
Lots of free benefits that they are fighting really hard to avoid paying for. They are the ones looting our retirement

No it was looted long ago and now they want us to refill it with our hard earned money. That is looting of the highest order by your generation. Not mine.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
But, hey - they really, really W-A-N-T that $30K to $100K car (or truck) and the McMansion. Why should old folks get any of their retire investment back?

Why should they get more than they paid in? And what we do or buy with "our" money is of no ones business. Enough of the poor old folks or next generation pity party.
 
Mir
Posts: 19107
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:45 am

Quoting sccutler (Reply 21):
There was a time when American taxpayers were taxed substantially less than their counterparts in other developed countries - this is simply no longer the case

Isn't it? Tax rates in the US are still quite a bit lower than in most other developed countries, and last year the Bush tax cuts got extended.

Federal, state and local income taxes consumed 9.2% of all personal income in 2009, the lowest rate since 1950, the Bureau of Economic Analysis reports.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2010-05-10-taxes_N.htm

Quoting dxing (Reply 27):
Since there are far fewer workers to retirees and will be every year from now until the middle of the century, the burden on the younger genrations will be much higher than it was for you or I since they not only have to support us, but pay back the loans that your generation made to itself.

   Which is why we need to seriously consider cutting SS benefits for all but the most needy. SS is going to be in serious financial trouble in a couple of decades as a result of a large elderly population, and while I'd really like all the money I'm currently paying into the system to be there when it's time for me to collect on it, I recognize that that's not going to happen. But if we start paying out a percentage instead of full benefits, then there can be something left over for me when I get to retirement age. And I'd accept that - I'm fine with taking less than my full share so long as that pain is spread out among several generations.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 28):
Once again you wash away personal responsibility. Who cares what the realtor's, bank's or insurance companies offered. The people still had to say yes and sign the bottom line.

And you're washing away corporate responsibility. It's a two way street - if a guy comes to you asking for a loan, and you're pretty sure that he's not going to be able to pay it back, but you still give him the loan, can you really blame him when he's not able to pay it back? Nobody forced the bank to sign the dotted line either - a loan is an investment, and if you think the investment isn't going to go well for you, you shouldn't be investing, whether you're the lender or the lendee.

Your position is basically saying that banks/realtors/insurance companies are fundamentally incapable of making bad investments. And that's just ridiculous.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12423
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:50 am

I do believe that a partial shutown of the Federal government will occur, much like as in the 1990's and it could last longer than that one.

Clearly we have faced a point of several conflicting issues comming to a head in the USA as is much of the world as discussed in other posts here so no need to repeate them. So where do we go from here? Clearly we need to either increase revenues or make cuts in spending but do it in ways that don't make our economic situation worse or hurt those with real needs.

As to revenues on the Federal level, we need a complete rehab of our system of taxaton. We need to delete the 1000's of complicated deductions created by buying out of politicans. I believe that using a progressive scale, various deductions like for mortgage interest and local property taxes, should be limited or have a cap as you go into higher incomes, especially above $200-250K unless you actually own a true 'small business'. I would like to see a huge raise of taxes on short term investments, to discourage speculation in stocks, real property, commodities and debt and in turn hold down run ups in prices. We should have through audits of anyone with a gross income over $200,000. The banks and companies that got trillions in bailouts need to pay more in taxes as 'interest' to pay a price for their part in the obscene near-ruin of the economy. We shoud also have an increase of 50-60 cents per gallon in gasoline taxes (not on diesel, mainly used by businesses) to reduce demand, with it's health, envriomental, trade and military costs.

As to Social Security, bring back the rules that if you had above a certain steday income such as continuing employment or a 'fat' pension, then you will get less or none on a sliding scale. For Mediade, you will pay a similar scale of higher monthty premiums for coverage if you have above a certain income as noted as to SS.

As to the miltary, we need to get out of Afganistan and Iraq, as well as pull back our overreaching scope in the world. We are overextended, making millions more enemies toward us, and recognize it is a bad investment. That would save us 100's of Billions right now.

As to capital/infrastructure spending, we need to consider a non-partisan commission, to prioritize spending where it is most needed, not just going to the districts of the most connected member of Congress or going to contractors who paid the most to politicans.

Farm programs must be revised to support real farmers, not the corporate-factory farms as well as reduce overall spending. Of course we have a Congress that overrepresents farmers, ranchers, etc while underrepeseinting urban and suburban voters.

We need to completly revise our regulations of financial services, to perhaps add transaction taxes and fees, discourage mergers, cut down more 'big box' retail, protect both debtors and creditors from ill-motivated decisions.

We need to redo trade agreements that kill jobs in the USA,

Many of us also have to be willing to say 'no' to more benefits from government, yes to pay slightly more in taxes, disconnect campign fancining from the influences of the richest and corporations, as well as support strong efforts to de-politialize access to key government jobs, eliminate the too many 'political' ones with high pay, maybe even doing audits on agencies to weed out unnessary spending.

There are no easy answers, but we must all try to come up with them or we will all will be worse off.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:52 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 29):
Which is why we need to seriously consider cutting SS benefits for all but the most needy.

Agreed.

Quoting Mir (Reply 29):
SS is going to be in serious financial trouble in a couple of decades as a result of a large elderly population, and while I'd really like all the money I'm currently paying into the system to be there when it's time for me to collect on it, I recognize that that's not going to happen.

It's in real trouble now. As to you getting your money, we all know that you live way to wild and active lifestyle to ever make it to retirement age....      

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 30):
I do believe that a partial shutown of the Federal government will occur, much like as in the 1990's and it could last longer than that one.

Agreed.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 30):
As to revenues on the Federal level, we need a complete rehab of our system of taxaton. We

Absolutely.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 30):
As to Social Security, bring back the rules that if you had above a certain steday income such as continuing employment or a 'fat' pension, then you will get less or none on a sliding scale. For Mediade, you will pay a similar scale of higher monthty premiums for coverage if you have above a certain income as noted as to SS.

Right on the button.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 30):
As to the miltary, we need to get out of Afganistan and Iraq, as well as pull back our overreaching scope in the world. We are overextended, making millions more enemies toward us, and recognize it is a bad investment. That would save us 100's of Billions right now

Again, this is absolutely correct.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 30):
As to capital/infrastructure spending, we need to consider a non-partisan commission, to prioritize spending where it is most needed, not just going to the districts of the most connected member of Congress or going to contractors who paid the most to politicans.

I would disagree on this only because elected officials need to be held accountable for these decisions, not some unelected commision members. They need to do their jobs.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 30):
We need to completly revise our regulations of financial services, to perhaps add transaction taxes and fees, discourage mergers, cut down more 'big box' retail, protect both debtors and creditors from ill-motivated decisions.

I don't care for discouraging mergers as long as they are not creating monopolies. We have several small hardware stores near where I live that have carved out niche markets for themselves and do quite well for themselves while still in the shadow of the big box hardware stores.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 30):
We need to redo trade agreements that kill jobs in the USA,

That would help. We also need to incentivze keeping jobs here in the States.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 30):
Many of us also have to be willing to say 'no' to more benefits from government, yes to pay slightly more in taxes

Raises in taxes have to offset by cuts in expenditures at this point. Just raising taxes only gives the politicians more money to spend.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
windy95
Posts: 2658
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:50 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 29):
Isn't it? Tax rates in the US are still quite a bit lower than in most other developed countries, and last year the Bush tax cuts got extended
Quoting Mir (Reply 29):
Federal, state and local income taxes consumed 9.2% of all personal income in 2009, the lowest rate since 1950, the Bureau of Economic Analysis reports



They are lower because they are figuring in the people who pay nothing. What is the % for all the people who actually pay most of the taxes. 30 to 60 % depending on the state and city you live in.

Quoting Mir (Reply 29):
And you're washing away corporate responsibility. It's a two way street - if a guy comes to you asking for a loan, and you're pretty sure that he's not going to be able to pay it back



Sorry but you are the one seeking the loan and are solely responsible for your investments.

Quoting Mir (Reply 29):
Your position is basically saying that banks/realtors/insurance companies are fundamentally incapable of making bad investments. And that's just ridiculous.



That is not my position at all. They make bad investments all the time but you can not put any blame on them when you make a bad investment. You and only you are responsible when you sign the bottom line when you sign for a home, loan or car you cannot afford. You alone are responsible for running up your credit card debt. Not the bank that is charging you a very high interest. It is the person that spends money on cigarettes and liquor but then says they cannot afford health care that is to blame. Not the insurance company
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9061
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:15 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 27):
The problem is that the loans were made with absolutely no legitimate plan to pay them back.
Quoting dxing (Reply 27):
They are backed with paper, with no actual collateral,

Exactly like any other Treasury loan, like the loans from China?

Quoting dxing (Reply 27):
No matter what an adjustment will have to be made to the system in order to keep it, and the federal government, solvent.

So let's first start with bringing in some user taxes directly applied to the infrastructure we built with the money. And the various stores on the turnpikes? Their prices are high enough that we can add in a SS Loan Repayment Tax.

Toll roads? I don't have a problem with that - I already have two electronic stickers in my car.

Then lets start getting some real return from the investments we have made in airports and ATC around the country. Airlines have stripped out so many benefits for pax that there is room in the ticket prices to add in a SS Loan Repayment Tax.

We have also spent sufficient money at various universities to have them start paying back some - especially the ones with large endowments.

And let's not forget the need to increase one tax or another in order to replace the new SS Loans that will phase out over time.

Quoting dxing (Reply 27):
It was like taking out a loan to build your house, and passing the payments off to your unborn children. Great for you, not so great for your children.

Or how about taking out a home loan when you start working, making payments throughout your working life and having it paid off when you retire. You benefit from the inflation. Have a roof over your head (like the insurance SS provides) and are paid off when you retire.

Of course, the losses from problems like the liar loan home crisis will hit the national deficit (especially since we let those who ripped off the system keep the huge pile of money they grabbed) and those same people will be spending a lot of pr funds to get you to support taking money from the sick & elderly so you will invest your retirement with them.

Maybe they will call it the Trust Me Retirement Fund.         

Quoting windy95 (Reply 28):
How does making money equate to lost personal responsibility?

When the group is making a killing with the liar loans and other abuses of the system there is a lack of personal responsibility.

I can't understand why you're standing up for a lot of people who should be sitting in prison right now. Amazing.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 28):
Exactly, why should I pay taxes for Social Security, Medicare and Obamacare if I choose not to use the system.

If you're living and working in the country you follow the country's rules. I did it when I lived in Australia and managed to survive.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 28):
And now you want them payed back on my dime with more taxes...unbelievable.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 28):
No it was looted long ago and now they want us to refill it with our hard earned money. That is looting of the highest order by your generation. Not mine.

It was invested, not looted, in infrastructure, over many years. You're riding on the roads. flying through the airports and, if you went to a US university, studied in schools funded in part with those SS Funds.

Today the largest part of my generation is STILL paying into those same funds, as are you. That money is still being invested. And there will be public construction around the country that it is help paying for.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 28):
Why should they get more than they paid in?

That is the way a retirement fund works. You pay in during your working years anticipating growth of your account through various investments and compounding of interest.

At the same time SS has also provided a base protection for everyone. There was no problem when our fathers paid into the program knowing that their parents would receive more than they paid in. Same with my generation. We paid a higher rate then our parents, and knew that our parents would receive more than they paid in.

We also knew that surplus funds would be invested in the country, building roads and other programs that would help grow the economy. And those dollars have helped the country grow. One only has to look at the Interstate System with all the freight moving on it to get a hint at how it spurs growth. That is investing at the highest order.
 
seb146
Posts: 14051
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:36 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
So we have 3 weeks before we see how the Republicans & Tea Folks in the House end up

The party of "no" is still up to their same old song and dance. Any compromise coming from the Democrats is automatically rejected. Will the government shut down? Yes. And the right will use that to blame the Democrats. Spin and half-truths yet again. And the American people will fall for it.

BTW, I thought the right was supposed to create jobs? How is shutting down the government creating jobs? I hear nothing coming from the right about job creation.
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
windy95
Posts: 2658
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:39 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 33):
I can't understand why you're standing up for a lot of people who should be sitting in prison right now. Amazing




I cannot understand how you can stand up for irresponsible citizens who take out loans with out reading them or understanding them. Or how they walk away from a loan because they are under water but can still afford the payments. Or regular people who had been speculating and got caught holding the bag. These are the people who I see as being responsible for bringing down home values in my area. Not the people offering the loans.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 33):
It was invested, not looted, in infrastructure, over many years



Is the money still there...No. It was looted by one generation screwing the next.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 33):
If you're living and working in the country you follow the country's rules.



The Dems allow the illegal aliens to not follow the rules. Why should I have to?

Why do the "rules" of the looters have to apply to everyone when it comes to their great social programs. Those are not rules or laws but redistribution of wealth at the point of the Governments gun. Not being able to opt out of these social programs is pure robbery.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 33):
Today the largest part of my generation is STILL paying into those same funds, as are you. That money is still being invested. And there will be public construction around the country that it is help paying for.



It is being looted. You can call it what you want to try and make a pile of crap smell like a rose but it thievery against future generations pure and simple. Allow us to opt out of this Ponzi scheme.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 33):
That is the way a retirement fund works. You pay in during your working years anticipating growth of your account through various investments and compounding of interest



Yes but in the case of my retirement account my money is still in "my" account and has not been looted to fill some politicians pet project in his district. People retiring now who live to be 80 plus years old have stolen more than what they put in and accrued over the years. That is not a retirement account but instead is a wealth redistrubtion Ponzi scheme.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 33):
There was no problem when our fathers paid into the program knowing that their parents would receive more than they paid in. Same with my generation. We paid a higher rate then our parents, and knew that our parents would receive more than they paid in.



My father died before he collected and my mom never made enough to receive a livable sum. All the money my father paid in went to help cover this Ponzi schmen. So I am not paying for my parents but am being robbed to pay for someone else's retirement. I provide for my mother because she does not have a retirement and thenI also have to pay for you. Great system the looters have set up.
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9061
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:24 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 35):
These are the people who I see as being responsible for bringing down home values in my area. Not the people offering the loans.

You must be in the investment, insurance or real estate business.         

Quoting windy95 (Reply 35):
Is the money still there...No.

Is the infrastructure still there? Yep. From roads to tanks & carriers in a war zone today.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 35):
It is being looted.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 35):
Allow us to opt out of this Ponzi scheme.

With your tax free rip off? No bloody way.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 35):
Yes but in the case of my retirement account my money is still in "my" account and has not been looted to fill some politicians pet project in his district

I hate to tell you, but any money you have in your retirement fund that was from a tax free contribution is simply another cause of our national debt.

You cry out about the debt and "Looting", but you can't understand that your tax free tide is one of the problems, not a "solution". Don't talk to me about "looting" when you are so proud of you tax avoidance. Time we taxes those retirement plans - you can pay taxes like we did.
 
windy95
Posts: 2658
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:41 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
You must be in the investment, insurance or real estate business



No I am a citizen who makes a informed decision when buying my property, vehicles and investments. I understood what I was getting myself into along with all of the cost's when purchasing. I had a professional realtor and a real estate attorney at my closing to protect my interests. It is my fault and mine alone if I put myself in over my head or put myself into a risky loan. Personal responsibility is a pretty simple thing to understand.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
You cry out about the debt and "Looting", but you can't understand that your tax free tide is one of the problems, not a "solution". Don't talk to me about "looting" when you are so proud of you tax avoidance. Time we taxes those retirement plans - you can pay taxes like we did



Spending is the problem not taxes. Whether it is budgeting a government or buying your own home the price and spending is the issue. Not the taxes or your income. Do not continue to grow government and keep adding free handouts at someone else's expense.

And where I have talked about being proud of my tax avoidance?
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9061
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:06 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 37):
No I am a citizen who makes a informed decision when buying my property,

As were a lot of others. People who thought they had a "professional real estate agent" who showed them how they could get a short term low interest loan, then refinance before the interest went up. People who bought a home based on their income, made the proper down payment, then were laid off like millions of others in the Bush Great Recession. Discovered their home was so far under water that there was no hope of paying it odd. A lot of those did surrender their homes, which can reduce foreclosure costs.

Maybe you should just be very grateful your OK (I sure am) instead of believing everyone should be as "smart" as you are.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 37):
Personal responsibility is a pretty simple thing to understand.

But not corporate responsibility?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 37):
Do not continue to grow government and keep adding free handouts at someone else's expense.

Any tax free retirement contribution you may have is basically a free handout at others expense. Time to end that.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 37):
And where I have talked about being proud of my tax avoidance?

Does that mean you are ashamed of your tax avoidance?  

Anyone with retirement funds built with tax free money are actually pretty quite right now - they aren't too anxious to have that free ride made public while there are efforts underway to crash Social Security, and the national debt is so prominent.
 
Mir
Posts: 19107
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:36 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 31):
As to you getting your money, we all know that you live way to wild and active lifestyle to ever make it to retirement age....

Yeah, I suppose I'm on track to be bruised and battered in a box by age 50....   

Quoting windy95 (Reply 37):
I am a citizen who makes a informed decision when buying my property, vehicles and investments. I understood what I was getting myself into along with all of the cost's when purchasing. I had a professional realtor and a real estate attorney at my closing to protect my interests. It is my fault and mine alone if I put myself in over my head or put myself into a risky loan.

Let's say you want to buy an airplane. There's a new manufacturer who is offering a great product - the performance numbers are fantastic, it's efficient, and it'll be easy to fly. And it'll be ready in three years. Since you want to make an informed decision, you do some more research. And you find that they don't have a supply chain set up, their performance numbers are wildly optimistic, and much of their technology is unproven and still in development. In short, it doesn't look like they can make their targets. But the salesman says they can, and that they will. Would you sign the dotted line on that deal?

And if you did, and gave the company a deposit, what would happen in three years when the company was in bankruptcy because they couldn't get their production going, their flight test program was a mess, and they had massive cost overruns? You might be inclined to blame the company, but you had suspicions all along that they were full of crap, and nobody forced you to give them the deposit, right?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
windy95
Posts: 2658
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:44 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 38):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 37):
Personal responsibility is a pretty simple thing to understand.

But not corporate responsibility?

Did they brake the law?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 38):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 37):
Do not continue to grow government and keep adding free handouts at someone else's expense.


Any tax free retirement contribution you may have is basically a free handout at others expense. Time to end that

Sorry but that is allowing me to keep the money I earned. How is my keeping more of my money a free handout to someone who pays no taxes? My being able to keep my money is a loss to no one except the robber barons that run our Federal Government who consider my lack of paying taxes a loss. The only free handout is someone who pays or achieves nothing and receives the hard earned benefits of someone else.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 38):
Does that mean you are ashamed of your tax avoidance?


No it means I pay my share that is forced on me by our government. I do not make the rules.
 
windy95
Posts: 2658
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:50 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 37):
I am a citizen who makes a informed decision when buying my property, vehicles and investments. I understood what I was getting myself into along with all of the cost's when purchasing. I had a professional realtor and a real estate attorney at my closing to protect my interests. It is my fault and mine alone if I put myself in over my head or put myself into a risky loan.

Let's say you want to buy an airplane. There's a new manufacturer who is offering a great product - the performance numbers are fantastic, it's efficient, and it'll be easy to fly. And it'll be ready in three years. Since you want to make an informed decision, you do some more research. And you find that they don't have a supply chain set up, their performance numbers are wildly optimistic, and much of their technology is unproven and still in development. In short, it doesn't look like they can make their targets. But the salesman says they can, and that they will. Would you sign the dotted line on that deal?

And if you did, and gave the company a deposit, what would happen in three years when the company was in bankruptcy because they couldn't get their production going, their flight test program was a mess, and they had massive cost overruns? You might be inclined to blame the company, but you had suspicions all along that they were full of crap, and nobody forced you to give them the deposit, right?



This is a ridiculous comparison . Are you comparing interest rates for a mortgage/adjustable mortgage for a home to performance specs on airplanes? Is there really supposed to be a point to this.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:40 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 33):

Exactly like any other Treasury loan, like the loans from China?

Go to any bankruptcy court in the nation and explain that the first creditor that should be paid is yourself as you loaned yourself money with unsecured debt. Then get back to us and let us know how that worked out for you. Unless SS is revamped and reworked it will be like any other underfunded pension plan. It will end up being outright eliminated or greatly reduced in its benefits payout. Because that is just what an underfunded pension plan is, a plan where the money did not get set aside by the company when it should have been and was instead used for other expenditures by the corporation. Then when the pensions come due, the money is not there.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 33):

So let's first start with bringing in some user taxes

So you agree that:

1. Your generation did not pay for roads, bridges, airports, and other things up front but rather passed the expense on to future generations to pay.

2. Your generation was not willing to tax themselves at a higher level to pay for those items listed above, and many more, but have no problem expecting future generations to pay above and beyond what you paid in order to keep the benefits you mortgaged going.

if not then you need to get realistic about where you will also cut benefits and/or raise the eligibility age in order to keep at least some of the people receiving benefits.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 33):

Or how about taking out a home loan when you start working, making payments throughout your working life and having it paid off when you retire.

If that is what your generation had done it would hold some truth. In reality your generation bought the house, added a pool and a spare room as well as a detached garage, and deferred the payments to future generations. If you had been making payments your retirement fund, in this case SS, would be there waiting for you and the program would not be in the current dire straits that it finds itself in.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 34):

The party of "no" is still up to their same old song and dance
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/201...pending-in-early-morning-vote.html

Then, at 4:40 A.M., the House of Representatives voted to pass the CR 235-189. All Democrats and three Republicans -- Reps. Jeff Flake, Ariz., John Campbell, Calif., and Walter Jones, N.C., -- voted against the bill.

The bill now heads to the Senate, where it has no support from the Democratic majority. President Obama has also threatened to veto the bill.


Who's the party of NO?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 34):
Any compromise coming from the Democrats is automatically rejected.

Please name the compromise that was automatically rejected. Unlike the past 4 years any ammendment was allowed to be brought up for debate in the House. The CNN article details the compromises leaders of both parties are discussing to avoid a government shut down.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-20/p...ng-plan-budget-cuts?_s=PM:POLITICS
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Mir
Posts: 19107
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:41 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):
Are you comparing interest rates for a mortgage/adjustable mortgage for a home to performance specs on airplanes?

One investment to another. When the bank loans someone money, they're making an investment in that person in hopes of future returns (otherwise there'd be no point to the loan). Not every investment works out, neither for the people nor for the banks. If the banks do their due diligence and make sure that the people they're lending to have solid credit, then I can understand how they'd be pissed about their lendees defaulting. But if the banks loan out money to everyone without really checking to see whether they can reasonably be expected to pay it back (and we know that some of them did), I've got no sympathy for them when some of those loans disappear. Nobody forced them to give out that money.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
dxing
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:02 am

Looks like both sides are about to blink.......

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/26/us/politics/26budget.html

WASHINGTON — The prospect of an imminent federal government shutdown diminished Friday as House Republicans proposed a carefully calibrated stopgap measure that Democrats said could be acceptable.

Perhaps if the GOP keeps up with one stop gap after another, each time whitlling away a little more, by October they will have finally reached the 61 billion in cuts they are seeking.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
seb146
Posts: 14051
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:52 pm

Since the right is fond of analogies, here's one:

A CEO, tea partier and union member are all sitting at a table with a plate of 12 cookies in front of them. The CEO takes 11 cookies, eats them all then tells the tea partier that the union person wants the last cookie.
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
Ken777
Topic Author
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RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:55 pm

Interesting article in the WaPo today, indicating that the GOP Plan would cost 700,000 jobs between now and the 2012 election. Would cut growth in the economy both years, which is a great way to win elections in 2012.

Quote:

A Republican plan to sharply cut federal spending this year would destroy 700,000 jobs through 2012, according to an independent economic analysis set for release Monday.
Quote:

Zandi, an architect of the 2009 stimulus package who has advised both political parties, predicts that the GOP package would reduce economic growth by 0.5 percentage points this year, and by 0.2 percentage points in 2012, resulting in 700,000 fewer jobs by the end of next year.
Quote:

His report comes on the heels of a similar analysis last week by the investment bank Goldman Sachs, which predicted that the Republican spending cuts would cause even greater damage to the economy, slowing growth by as much as 2 percentage points in the second and third quarters of this year.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn.../AR2011022802634.html?hpid=topnews

In addition to the situation when the GOP & Tea Party took power after the '10 Elections we not have a very "fluid" situation in the Middle East and the situation(s) there are already starting to be reflected in the price of petrol. Does anyone really know how things will be in 3. 6, 12, or 18 months in terms of the price of fuel and it's impact on our economy?

Do you really believe that the Tea Party types in power today are actually taking the time to work out how things may go over the next year? And how to integrate their "philosophy" with the reality of world affairs?
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:24 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 46):
Interesting article in the WaPo today, indicating that the GOP Plan would cost 700,000 jobs between now and the 2012 election.

If they are government jobs then I'm all for it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 46):
there are already starting to be reflected in the price of petrol

And yet the interior department is still enforcing a moritorium on offshore drilling that a court of law held invalid.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 46):
Do you really believe that the Tea Party types in power today are actually taking the time to work out how things may go over the next year?

The democrats sure didn't. They took "spending like a drunken sailor" to a new level. The GOP's immediate aim is to take spending back to 2008 levels. Of course that was back when the democrats were complaining about a 140 billion dollar deficit.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
windy95
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Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:34 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 47):
The democrats sure didn't. They took "spending like a drunken sailor" to a new level. The GOP's immediate aim is to take spending back to 2008 levels. Of course that was back when the democrats were complaining about a 140 billion dollar deficit.

If we could only get back to the good old days of the Bush/Cheney deficits 140 billion instead of 1.4 trillion. And they are complaining about this $60 billion which is just like change in your pocket.
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9061
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Budget Battle: Will Gov Shut Down?

Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:46 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 47):
If they are government jobs then I'm all for it.

700,000 increase in the unemployed, with all the follow-on impacts. Less income tax revenues, increased payouts for unemployment, food stamps, Medicaid,

Just start adding up the payouts.

Oh, let's not forget the 700,000 going after the same jobs that the currently unemployed would try to go after.

Will you still be for it when the final costs are known?

Quoting dxing (Reply 47):
And yet the interior department is still enforcing a moritorium on offshore drilling that a court of law held invalid.

Saw something today about the Administration giving the OK on a deep water rig. While the Good Old Oil Boys are dissing Obama it was their own Buddies (BP & Halliburton) were right there causing the problem.

Quoting dxing (Reply 47):
The GOP's immediate aim is to take spending back to 2008 levels.

Their aim was also to make sure Obama was a one term president - like Bush I.

Unfortunately they seem to believe that they can cut spending that can toll ANOTHER 700,000 out of work, at a time when there is a totally unknown situation in the Middle East and the future price of oil is simply unknown.

The GOP might be pushing hard for yet another GOP Perfect Storm. Just like we saw in the Bush/Cheney Years.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 48):
If we could only get back to the good old days of the Bush/Cheney deficits 140 billion instead of 1.4 trillion.

If we could only go back to the days before the Invasion of Iraq. The Ego War where there were no WMDs.

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