ajd1992
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EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:01 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12608487

The European Court of Human Rights has ruled that now, car insurers can't charge men more just down to being male (and therefore apparently running over and killing everybody they see, apparently....).

Do you think this ruling is fair, or are women genuinely better drivers? I've seen some pretty terrible female drivers as well as males, in all fairness.

Also, what will this mean for insurers like Sheila's Wheels? They're a female only insurer, and surely now they're going to get it in the neck too?
 
Superfly
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:09 pm

Kudos to the EU courts on this ruling.
Bring back the Concorde
 
MaverickM11
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:49 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Thread starter):
Do you think this ruling is fair, or are women genuinely better drivers?

Wouldn't that be born out in the insurance data? I can't imagine insurance companies are just picking on males for the fun of it. There's gotta be reams of data supporting the higher premium for young men.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ALTF4
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:01 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Wouldn't that be born out in the insurance data? I can't imagine insurance companies are just picking on males for the fun of it. There's gotta be reams of data supporting the higher premium for young men.

I'm sure there is, but that is the cost of saying everything is discrimination.

One of these days, we'll put cockroaches on trial because they scare woman more than men.
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DocLightning
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:19 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):

Wouldn't that be born out in the insurance data? I can't imagine insurance companies are just picking on males for the fun of it. There's gotta be reams of data supporting the higher premium for young men.

Yes, but punishing a responsible, careful, young man just for having testicles is also not fair.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:28 pm

But on the other hand private pension insurances will become more expensive for men. Since women live on average longer than men, and thus draw a pension for a longer period, men had to pay lower premiums.

Jan
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Dreadnought
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:12 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Yes, but punishing a responsible, careful, young man just for having testicles is also not fair.

My parents didn't leave me with a $50 million trust fund but my neighbor's did. It's not fair!

Life is not fair. Deal with it.
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scbriml
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:25 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Wouldn't that be born out in the insurance data? I can't imagine insurance companies are just picking on males for the fun of it. There's gotta be reams of data supporting the higher premium for young men.

Hopefully. Just as the data says that, being of a 'certain' age, I'm a safer driver than a 17-yo (male or female).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Yes, but punishing a responsible, careful, young man just for having testicles is also not fair.

Who's 'punishing' anyone? To the insurance companies, a young man represents a significantly greater risk than a 50-something man. When that young man proves he's a careful driver (by not having accidents resulting in claims), then his insurance premiums will fall. I don't see anything unfair about it. And, if women drivers are less of a risk than men, by all means they should have lower premiums. In this instance, the law is an ass.
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MaverickM11
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:37 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Yes, but punishing a responsible, careful, young man just for having testicles is also not fair.

According to some quick googling, the accident death rate for teenage male drivers is almost double that of females. This ruling seems to punish safe female drivers, more than anything, while subsidizing the bad behavior of male drivers.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
Hopefully. Just as the data says that, being of a 'certain' age, I'm a safer driver than a 17-yo (male or female).

That's discrimination too; wouldn't that be illegal under this ruling as well?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:41 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
When that young man proves he's a careful driver (by not having accidents resulting in claims), then his insurance premiums will fall.

I don't know how long is this "proving period", but around here it's until 25 year's of age. Who starts driving as 17 years old, will pay a price of a new car in premiums over this period...

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
And, if women drivers are less of a risk than men,

I'd really would like to see statistics proving that. Not only in absolute numbers, but let's say in number of accidents caused per 100000 km driven.
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scbriml
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:55 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
According to some quick googling, the accident death rate for teenage male drivers is almost double that of females.

Exactly. Statistically, they're safer drivers than their male counterparts. They should pay less for insurance as they're a lower risk.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
That's discrimination too; wouldn't that be illegal under this ruling as well?

It's not discrimination. It's experience and statistics. If I started driving at 50, I'd expect to get the same premiums as a 17-yo. However, as a 50-odd who's been driving for over 30 years (only one claim in that time), I'd be outraged if my premiums were the same as a 17-yo who passed his driving test yesterday.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 9):
I'd really would like to see statistics proving that.

Try doing what MaverickM11 did. I have no doubt whatsoever that the only reason female insurance premiums are lower is because they're safer drivers than their male counterparts. Insurance companies are normally very good at evaluating risk.
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WildcatYXU
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:05 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 10):
Try doing what MaverickM11 did.

I did. And guess what, only numbers per 1000 drivers were available. Not per distance driven.
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ozglobal
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:22 pm

What this example demonstrates is the need of the courts to maintain a hierachy of values representing the Common Good and not just zeroing in on a single value, influenced by the latest wave of political correctness.

The values at stake here are:

- The right of all people to be considered equally and fairly
- The right of businesses dealing in risk to 'deal in risk'
- The duty of the individual to responsible behaviour toward the rest of society
- Equality of the dignity of persons as male and female
- We could add the same for age in other examples

Use cases:

- I as a person of whatever gender or age have a RIGHT to be considered EQUALLY when applying for goods and services and not be UNJUSTLY discriminated against on the a priori basis of gender, age or whatever
- I as an Insurance company have a RIGHT as an entity to conduct business proposing offers adapted to the market needs. Insurance companies deal in risk and must be allowed to do so in setting premiums or they will exit the market. Then the state would have to replace insurance companies and disregard risk in setting premiums.
- An insurance company is someone you pay to take over some of YOUR risk. You are buying some financial peace of mind. In setting an appropriate premium, the insurance company must factor in your risk profile based on objective data. For life insurance, this includes a medical. If you have pancreatic cancer, it is not very realistic to expect the company to take on your risk which is now a near certainty of impending death for the same monthly premium as a 21 year on in perfect health and family medical history. This is a case of JUST DISCRIMINATION
- In the same way, a young man objectively has a 100% or more greater chance of serious harm to himself or others on the road IN GENERAL that a young woman.
- Therefore, the premium setting higher for young men is discrimination, but just discrimination.

What do you think job interviews are for? To justly discriminate between candidates.

We have become sloppy in our language and thinking and equated all discrimination with un-just discrimination. It is not the same thing. One is morally right, the other morally wrong...
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N1120A
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:32 pm

I'm torn. It is clearly discriminatory to use this generalized risk pool type thinking, when you do have good drivers who happen to be young men and some Maverick-with-hair-on-fire young ladies. That said, the statistics are reliable and well borne out. Then again, I generally despise insurance companies and their behavior, so its hard to defend anything they do.

Quoting ajd1992 (Thread starter):

Do you think this ruling is fair, or are women genuinely better drivers? I've seen some pretty terrible female drivers as well as males, in all fairness.

The issue is that the stereotypes some have about female drivers (I don't) are generally not those that cause major accidents resulting in costly payouts. The well studied risk pool behavior of young male drivers, on the other hand, does.

Quoting ajd1992 (Thread starter):

Also, what will this mean for insurers like Sheila's Wheels? They're a female only insurer, and surely now they're going to get it in the neck too?

I think that this ruling will force them to insure men.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):

Life is not fair. Deal with it.

Yeah, and to hell with protecting people from racist action as well. Not to mention sexual harassment.   

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):

That's discrimination too; wouldn't that be illegal under this ruling as well?

Age discrimination, both ways, has always been treated with lower scrutiny than gender discrimination.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 9):

I'd really would like to see statistics proving that. Not only in absolute numbers, but let's say in number of accidents caused per 100000 km driven.

One of the things that goes into the risk pool is how much someone drives.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 11):

I did. And guess what, only numbers per 1000 drivers were available. Not per distance driven.
http://www.drdriving.org/articles/gender.htm

This includes statistics from an Australian study.

Excerpt:

"In spite of the relative differences in the rates of change, men still have a considerably higher fatality rate than women. In 1995, the fatality rate for male car drivers (0.76 deaths per 100 million km) was 1.64 times higher than that for female car drivers (0.46). However, the differential between men and women decreases for less severe crashes. In fact, the rate of hospitalisation of female car drivers (8.35 per 100 million km driven) is 1.15 times higher than that for men (7.35 per 100 million km driven)."

This makes a lot of sense. 64% higher fatality rate per 100 million km driven for men. The 15% higher hospitalization rate for women in less severe crashes is also understandable, for various reasons, including smaller size, societal leanings and awareness. The thing is, death payouts are often significantly higher than non-fatality, so the risk is rated differently.
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tu204
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:52 pm

Ok, I don't know if I was singled out for being a young male, but when I went to Canada (Ontario, to be exact) to study when I was 19, I bought myself a 740iL BMW, and I almost crapped myself when I went to the insurance company! They wanted $279/month CDN for LIABILITY insurance, not full coverage. Of course I used the policy to get the license plates, cancelled it after the first month and drove around with no insurance for two years. When I got stopped by the police, I just paid the $70-something fine for not presenting my insurance. It was much cheaper than shelling out $279 a month. I never had an accident that was my fault (had a jackass run into me and with quick-thinking avoided several jackasses running into me). So why the hell did they want to charge me that much??? By contrast, for the last year of my study, I bought a E class Mercedes in the US, Virginia to be exact, at this time I was 21, still in the bullshit "risk category". I insured it in Virginia, kept it registered there (retained the kickass personalised plates that would have cost me over 200 in Ontario but only cost $15 in Virginia). And guess what? $79/month. For the fun of it, when I got to Canada I went to an insurance company and asked them how much it would cost to insure it...well, $243.
What the hell is going on with these guys? Are you telling me that a 21 year old driver in Canada is 4 times more likely to crash than in Virginia? Yeah, sure.
Another bit of contrast for you: In Russia insurance companies are not allowed to discriminate, I pay about $200/year on a 1973 Volga.
Can anyone explain? Oh, and I went to several insurance companies, the price varied by about $10. Cartel, anyone? In the states, Allstate gave the best rate, by quite a bit and it also included free towing and roadside assistance. The insurance in Canada? No services and the service itself was something along the lines of: be happy I'm giving you this rate.

[Edited 2011-03-02 16:01:02]
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Quokka
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:45 am

Of course it is discrimination to impose higher premiums based simply on whether the driver is male or female. Whether it is statistics based or not, the question was whether such discrimination is lawful.

Yes, statistically young men have a higher representation in motor vehicle incidents and fatalities. That is why in a number of jurisdictions insurance companies were (and still are in some) exempted from some provisions of Equal Opportunity legislation . But the statistics do not prove that a particular individual will actually have more accidents than anyone else. They merely suppose that he will. It is pure conjecture. And up to now it has been seen to be lawful. The EU court has now stated that it is not.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
My parents didn't leave me with a $50 million trust fund but my neighbor's did.


That was nice of your neighbours to establish a trust fund for you.  
 
PPVRA
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:31 am

This is so utterly absurd its almost hilarious!

But let's forget that for a second and skip right to the more practical. So let's see, because of apparently biological reasons, men pay more in auto insurance. Because of biological reasons, women tend to get paid less than men. There are numerous examples going back and forth. Same thing applies to "age discrimination", goes back and forth.

Are we gonna nitpick every single one or can we just call it even and avoid lawyer fees?

This type of discrimination isn't only rational, it's perfectly desirable.

[Edited 2011-03-02 19:33:57]
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Superfly
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:19 am

People should be charged by the amount of miles they drive and the amount of accidents they get in.
This would eliminate any sort of discrimination.
Bring back the Concorde
 
EDICHC
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:33 am

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 14):
They wanted $279/month CDN for LIABILITY insurance, not full coverage. Of course I used the policy to get the license plates, cancelled it after the first month and drove around with no insurance for two years. When I got stopped by the police, I just paid the $70-something fine for not presenting my insurance

If this had happened to you in the UK, your vehicle would have been seized, you would have been fined (much more than $70) and several penalty points on your licence. You would also not be able to licence the vehicle, which when I was last in the UK had to be done at least annually.
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AirCanada787
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:19 am

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 14):
Ok, I don't know if I was singled out for being a young male, but when I went to Canada (Ontario, to be exact) to study when I was 19, I bought myself a 740iL BMW, and I almost crapped myself when I went to the insurance company! They wanted $279/month CDN for LIABILITY insurance, not full coverage. Of course I used the policy to get the license plates, cancelled it after the first month and drove around with no insurance for two years. When I got stopped by the police, I just paid the $70-something fine for not presenting my insurance.

Not sure when you were a student in Ontario but the fine for not having auto insurance in Ontario now starts at $5000 and can go up to $25 000. For a second offence the fine starts at $10 000 and can go up to $50 000. Even on the first offence you can have your car impounded for up to three months and have your licence suspended for up to a year.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Yes, but punishing a responsible, careful, young man just for having testicles is also not fair.

  

I agree I am happy with this ruling. Unfortunately, I don't live in the EU. But as an example my brother and a female friend I have, have both been driving about the same length of time, my brother is accident free. My friend has unfortunately had 3 accidents, one of which was pretty major and resulted in her car being written off. (Lucky for her she just got a new one from her parents so she is still on the road...) Why should my brother have to pay nearly the same price for insurance that she now does when he is accident free?
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Francoflier
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:33 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 10):
Statistically, they're safer drivers than their male counterparts

You can't argue with statistics. This is how insurance works. Saying this is discrimination is like arguing against facts.

This is all highly ridiculous.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Then again, I generally despise insurance companies and their behavior, so its hard to defend anything they do.

You won't even have to in this case. That's the best thing yet about this entire charade. The only winners are the insurance companies, the very ones who were accused of discrimination.
Since it's perfectly clear that the insurance rates for men won't come down a bit, they will simply raise those of women to the levels of those of the opposite sex, this ruling being the proverbial soap to wash their hands with.

They will be laughing all the way to the bank, and I won't even blame them as this a perfect example of the levels of wasteful bureaucracy the EU has bogged itself into. They're not able to determine and enforce a single monetary policy for all the member nations, leading to economical catastrophes like those in Greece, Ireland and Portugal, but when it comes to nitpicking on so-called driver sex discrimination and other superfluous legal details and telling us all how to build our houses, which lightbulbs to buy and how to dispose of our garbage, they're champions.
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tu204
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:09 am

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 19):
Not sure when you were a student in Ontario but the fine for not having auto insurance in Ontario now starts at $5000 and can go up to $25 000. For a second offence the fine starts at $10 000 and can go up to $50 000. Even on the first offence you can have your car impounded for up to three months and have your licence suspended for up to a year.
Quoting EDICHC (Reply 18):
If this had happened to you in the UK, your vehicle would have been seized, you would have been fined (much more than $70) and several penalty points on your licence. You would also not be able to licence the vehicle, which when I was last in the UK had to be done at least annually.

Yes, however when I was stopped I said that I did not have my insurance WITH me. So the ticket was "not presenting insurance" not "not having insurance". I got two of those in the two years. Both times I was stopped "just because" and was not given any other ticket. I had 3 days to present my insurance to the police station or pay the fine. I went there a week later and paid the fine.
I didn't really have much of a choice because that insurance was way too expensive and using the useless public transport (in a pretty large city, I might add) was not an option.
Here's another comparison for you. During my pilot training, me and a couple other students bought a Cherokee 140 to train on. We insured it for I think $40,000 with a $3k deductible, at that time I did not even have a PPL and maybe about 20 hours. The insurance cost was something like $2300 for a year, soo thats less than $200/month for 1) an aircraft, 2) 3 mln Liability coverage vs. 1mln on the car and 3) The aircraft was covered for $40,000 vs 0 for the car.
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Kiwirob
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:53 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 20):
That's the best thing yet about this entire charade. The only winners are the insurance companies, the very ones who were accused of discrimination.
Since it's perfectly clear that the insurance rates for men won't come down a bit, they will simply raise those of women to the levels of those of the opposite sex, this ruling being the proverbial soap to wash their hands with.

The same deal happened with hair cuts in Sweden, women complained that they were paying more for a haircut than men, the Swedes decided this was discriminatory, haircuts should cost the same regardless of gender, the price for mens haircuts we up.
 
pilotsmoe
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:45 pm

I don't see what the big deal is here. Women pay alot more for health insurance because pregnancies are expensive. It's just statistics.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:48 pm

Quoting pilotsmoe (Reply 23):

I don't see what the big deal is here. Women pay alot more for health insurance because pregnancies are expensive. It's just statistics.

Only if you live in the US. In most civilised countries the state pays for all expenses related to bringing a future taxpayer into the world.
 
tu204
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:05 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 24):
Only if you live in the US. In most civilised countries the state pays for all expenses related to bringing a future taxpayer into the world.

True. When my son was born 6 months ago, not only did we get free quality healthcare, but also we got a cheque for about $2500 that helped buy all of our baby items including a crib, a nice stroller and so on. I don't know of any civilised country other than the US that actually charges for child birth for it's citizens.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
PPVRA
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:31 pm

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 19):
But as an example my brother and a female friend I have, have both been driving about the same length of time, my brother is accident free. My friend has unfortunately had 3 accidents, one of which was pretty major and resulted in her car being written off. (Lucky for her she just got a new one from her parents so she is still on the road...) Why should my brother have to pay nearly the same price for insurance that she now does when he is accident free?

Isn't car insurance in Canada handled by the provincial governments?
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WildcatYXU
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:54 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
Isn't car insurance in Canada handled by the provincial governments?

Not everywhere. It is in British Columbia. Alberta and Ontario have private insurance (pretty expensive that is), Quebec has a government/private combo. I don't know the situation in other provinces.
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tu204
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:00 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 27):
Not everywhere. It is in British Columbia. Alberta and Ontario have private insurance (pretty expensive that is), Quebec has a government/private combo. I don't know the situation in other provinces.

So do you have any theory atleast as to why car insurance is 2x more expensive than aircraft insurance and 4 times as expensive as it is in the U.S.? I'm still trying to grasp that. With no luck. Which is the reason that I did not "play along" when I was there.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:14 pm

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 28):
So do you have any theory atleast as to why car insurance is 2x more expensive than aircraft insurance and 4 times as expensive as it is in the U.S.?



Honestly, I have no idea. I'd add some more items that are substantially more expensive than in the US:
-fuel
-houses
-food
-clothing
-shoes
-booze
-cars
-airline service
-phone service
-cable TV
And the list is going on and on. OTOH there are few items that are susbtantially cheaper here.
310, 319, 320, 321, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, Saab 340, YAK40
 
tu204
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:34 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
Honestly, I have no idea. I'd add some more items that are substantially more expensive than in the US:
-fuel
-houses
-food
-clothing
-shoes
-booze
-cars
-airline service
-phone service
-cable TV
And the list is going on and on. OTOH there are few items that are susbtantially cheaper here.

Why? I can understand booze and cigarettes. And air service. However, do Canadians ask themselves why !twice! the price they are AFTER taxes and insurance for that matter? I don't understand why people don't start asking questions.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Kiwirob
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:54 pm

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 25):
I don't know of any civilised country other than the US that actually charges for child birth for it's citizens.

Makes one wonder if the US is a civilised as people like to think it is.
 
AirCanada787
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:23 pm

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 21):
Yes, however when I was stopped I said that I did not have my insurance WITH me. So the ticket was "not presenting insurance" not "not having insurance". I got two of those in the two years. Both times I was stopped "just because" and was not given any other ticket. I had 3 days to present my insurance to the police station or pay the fine. I went there a week later and paid the fine.
I didn't really have much of a choice because that insurance was way too expensive and using the useless public transport

Ah now I understand.

I would argue however that paying for insurance is all part of the cost of owning a car, I don't mean to single you out at all but basically I don't think anyone should drive without having insurance. If you can't pay for the insurance then you can't drive. Just this week in my home province there was an accident which resulted in a court case and a payout of nearly 1.4 million dollars (the accident resulted in someone being severely injured and they will never be able to work and need to live in as assisted living facility). But what would happen if the driver that hit them didn't have insurance? Would they just not be able to receive the medical care that they need?
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scbriml
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:35 pm

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 14):
Of course I used the policy to get the license plates, cancelled it after the first month and drove around with no insurance for two years.



How mature. Another reason why honest, safe drivers pay way too much for their insurance. Thanks.   
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tu204
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:24 pm

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 32):
would argue however that paying for insurance is all part of the cost of owning a car, I don't mean to single you out at all but basically I don't think anyone should drive without having insurance. If you can't pay for the insurance then you can't drive. Just this week in my home province there was an accident which resulted in a court case and a payout of nearly 1.4 million dollars (the accident resulted in someone being severely injured and they will never be able to work and need to live in as assisted living facility). But what would happen if the driver that hit them didn't have insurance? Would they just not be able to receive the medical care that they need?

I understand. However, with the amount of taxes the Canadians pay, public transit should be there. It isn't. I lived in Ottawa. Without a car it is impossible to get anywhere. Insurance or not, I had to get to where I was going.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 33):
How mature. Another reason why honest, safe drivers pay way too much for their insurance. Thanks.   

No problem buddy. However I am still awaiting an explanation as to why it cost more to insure an airplane with full coverage than a car. Any takers?
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signol
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:37 pm

It has often been said that men cause more accidents than women. I would argue that this is because of the vehicles driving, more are being driven by men. A straw poll at some traffic lights today (I was listening to a piece on the radio about this at the time) showed 5 men driving and 1 woman... So yes more accidents are likely to be caused by men, but 5 times as many? (based on my admittedly unscientific method!)

(and OP, the European Court of Justice made this verdict, not the European Court of Human Rights, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU  Wink )

signol

[Edited 2011-03-03 14:39:52]
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pilotsmoe
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:02 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
Makes one wonder if the US is a civilised as people like to think it is.

Why should I have to subsidize someone's medical procedure?
 
Asturias
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:21 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Thread starter):
The European Court of Human Rights has ruled that now, car insurers can't charge men more just down to being male (and therefore apparently running over and killing everybody they see, apparently....).

There is no EU court of human rights. The European Court of Human Rights has as much to do with the EU as EBU.

asturias
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N1120A
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:46 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
-fuel

Marginal

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
-houses

No. Especially comparing big cities.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
-food

Marginal.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
-clothing

Not so much anymore. The clothing companies have closed the gap on cross-border pricing with the closing of the exchange rates.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
-shoes

See clothing.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
-booze

Marginal, except for certain items that are hard to explain. Decent wine is probably cheaper, excluding pricing in California.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
-cars

Blame protectionism for that.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):

-airline service

Blame oligopoly for that.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
-phone service

Not really.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
-cable TV

How much do you pay?

Quoting pilotsmoe (Reply 36):

Why should I have to subsidize someone's medical procedure?

Because they turn around and "subsidize" yours. Becomes cheaper for everyone.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:31 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 33):
How mature. Another reason why honest, safe drivers pay way too much for their insurance. Thanks.

If you really believe this, I have a fantastic business proposal. It's called the McKay bridge in Halifax...

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
-fuel

Marginal


Last time I filled up in the US the difference was 15%. I don't call this marginal.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
-houses

No. Especially comparing big cities.

OK, let's compare cities of similar size and location. Which US city on the west coast with population of 2.2 mil has an average house price of $ 900000?



Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
-booze

Marginal, except for certain items that are hard to explain. Decent wine is probably cheaper, excluding pricing in California.

I'm afraid you're totally out of reality here. Where in the US are they asking $ 40 for a 24 pack of beer? Or let's compare something else, a 0.75l bottle of Glenlivet will cost you $48 in YXU, but only $ 32 in MCO.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
-phone service

Not really.

Out of reality again...you should hear my son in law complaining about cell phone prices (he just moved to YXU from upstate New York)

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
-cable TV

How much do you pay?

Slightly over $ 100 per month
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N1120A
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:31 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 39):

Last time I filled up in the US the difference was 15%. I don't call this marginal.

Where was that? And did you convert at 4 = 1? If you did, you didn't convert correctly and added 5.5% right there.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 39):

OK, let's compare cities of similar size and location. Which US city on the west coast with population of 2.2 mil has an average house price of $ 900000?

Which Canadian city of 2.2 million has that? Certainly not Toronto, where it is just over $431,000. And that is the city proper, which is always going to be more than when you count suburban areas.

http://www.torontohomes-for-sale.com/4a_custpage_2578.html

Meanwhile, the County of Los Angeles, which includes far flung areas that have been very hard hit by the bad economy has an average home price of over $441,000. And these numbers include things like mobile homes and occupied boats/RVs/etc.

http://www.city-data.com/county/Los_Angeles_County-CA.html

Oh, and L.A. isn't even the most expensive big city. That would be the 815,000 person City and County of San Francisco.

http://www.rereport.com/sf/ron/

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 39):
Where in the US are they asking $ 40 for a 24 pack of beer? Or let's compare something else, a 0.75l bottle of Glenlivet will cost you $48 in YXU, but only $ 32 in MCO.

You can also get a 24 for 24, as the ads say. Further, a bottle of Cointreau costs me less at the LCBO than it does here in Los Angeles, despite California having some of the lowest liquor prices and taxes in the country. And as for the example I gave, the selection of high quality, reasonably priced wines at the LCBO is significantly better than what you will find pretty much anywhere in the US other than California.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 39):
Out of reality again...you should hear my son in law complaining about cell phone prices (he just moved to YXU from upstate New York)

A quick look at Rogers' website shows prices competitive with, and possibly cheaper than AT&T. So is Bell. The only difference is that the Canadian carriers still have smaller calling areas.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 39):

Slightly over $ 100 per month

For what kind of service? That's less than I pay.
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Pyrex
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:48 am

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 14):

So at 19 you could afford a BMW 740 Li to drive around campus but couldn't afford insurance? And it never occurred to you to buy a car more appropriate to a college student you age and use the savings to, I don't know, buy some car insurance? No issues whatsoever with having other people incur the burden of your (probably reckless) driving? And you even have the gall to boast about it in an internet forum? Incredible, just freaking incredible.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 34):
However I am still awaiting an explanation as to why it cost more to insure an airplane with full coverage than a car. Any takers?

Because, depending on the province, car insurance in Canada is a government monopoly, and everything government gets involved in, with the best of intentions, they end up screwing up badly. You know what they say about the paving of the road to hell... I just wish there would be some consumer advocacy group to protect us from consumer advocacy groups.
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N1120A
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:36 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 41):
and everything government gets involved in, with the best of intentions, they end up screwing up badly.

Yeah, because the post office is terrible. And planes are falling out of the sky.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 41):

Because, depending on the province, car insurance in Canada is a government monopoly

Then how come the average cost of car insurance in Vancouver is less than half that of that of Los Angeles? How come its almost exactly equal to that in Seattle, just down the road?

Don't let facts get in the way of a good attack on government.
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Kiwirob
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:26 am

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 30):
However, do Canadians ask themselves why !twice! the price they are AFTER taxes and insurance for that matter? I don't understand why people don't start asking questions.

I've been asking the same question here in Norway, where people happily pay several times more for all sorts of things than other Europeans do. My conclusion is that Norwegians are basically like cows going to milking, they blindly follow the cow in front, get sucked dry, then wander out to pasture for it to happen all over again the next day.

Quoting pilotsmoe (Reply 36):
Why should I have to subsidize someone's medical procedure?

Because that person is going to grow up and become a taxpayer.
 
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scbriml
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:49 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 39):
If you really believe this

Are you suggesting that the insurance companies simply swallow the costs incurred as a result of uninsured drivers out of the goodness of their hearts?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...ed-drivers-cost-us-2bn-a-year.html
Quote:
Uninsured drivers also cost the insurance industry millions of pounds every year – with the Motor Insurers Bureau (MIB) dealing with more than 30,000 claims caused by uninsured drivers annually.

You don't think there's any chance that they simply pass those costs on to their customers?   


Quoting Tu204 (Reply 34):
No problem buddy.

I'm not your buddy and young idiots driving without insurance is a serious problem. I hope you're never on the wrong end of an uninsured driver.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
Pyrex
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:30 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
Then how come the average cost of car insurance in Vancouver is less than half that of that of Los Angeles? How come its almost exactly equal to that in Seattle, just down the road?

I suggest you go in the bathroom and take a good look at the mirror. The answer is obviously "lawyers". Everything that in the U.S. risks ending up in its kangaroo courts, where a group of 12 of your peers (i.e., people too stupid to be able to get out of jury duty) will have a chance to treat the slightest of accidental inconveniences as a lawyer will naturally cost more. Same reason healthcare in the U.S. is so much more expensive.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 44):
You don't think there's any chance that they simply pass those costs on to their customers?   

Of course they do, but that doesn't make it any less bad to drive around without insurance.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:38 pm

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 21):
I didn't really have much of a choice because that insurance was way too expensive and using the useless public transport (in a pretty large city, I might add) was not an option.

How about buying a car that you could actually afford? And yes, "afford" includes being able to insure it for the bare minimum required.
Quite an attitude there... being an immigrant and one of the first things you do in the host country is break the law... and then even brag about it on this forum.  
Novyie russkie anyone?
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:18 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
Where was that? And did you convert at 4 = 1? If you did, you didn't convert correctly and added 5.5% right there.



Hey, I know very well how to convert medieval units to modern ones      

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
Which Canadian city of 2.2 million has that? Certainly not Toronto, where it is just over $431,000.



C'mon man, since when is Toronto on the west coast? I'm talking about Vancouver. And even Toronto ain't exactly cheap, there is a huge difference between the GTA and Toronto proper.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
You can also get a 24 for 24, as the ads say.



It's 24 for 26.50 now and the stuff is undrinkable. I'm talking about what we call premium product. Compare apples to apples, please. Not to mention draft beer...

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 41):
Because, depending on the province, car insurance in Canada is a government monopoly, and everything government gets involved in, with the best of intentions, they end up screwing up badly.



Except the insurance premiums are highest in the provinces with private insurance.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 44):
Are you suggesting that the insurance companies simply swallow the costs incurred as a result of uninsured drivers out of the goodness of their hearts?



They obviously don't. But blame high premiums mostly on claims caused by uninsured drivers is simply ridiculous. And it doesn't answer the question TU204 asked: why are insurance premiums 4x higher in Canada (Ontario) than in the USA? That said, I'm not defending him, what he did is simply bad.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 46):
How about buying a car that you could actually afford? And yes, "afford" includes being able to insure it for the bare minimum required.



I'm not trying to defend TU204, since what he did was downright stupid, however some reality check is in order. If you are a young male in Ontario, there is no affordable car for you. Your insurance premiums will be sky high no matter what. The only options are high and higher. And when I'm talking high, I mean 4000-5000 CAD per year. Many of my friends who weren't youngsters by any means but purchased their first car in Canada were hit by rates like this. And they didn't drive beamers. One of may friends paid for some time higher monthly insurance premiums than was the monthly payment for his Kia Rio5. Not exactly a luxury car, isn't is?

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 46):
Quite an attitude there... being an immigrant and one of the first things you do in the host country is break the law... and then even brag about it on this forum.
Novyie russkie anyone?

Yes, he definitely sounds like one. However, let to be clear, he's not alone and many born Canadians do exactly the same.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 43):
I've been asking the same question here in Norway, where people happily pay several times more for all sorts of things than other Europeans do. My conclusion is that Norwegians are basically like cows going to milking, they blindly follow the cow in front, get sucked dry, then wander out to pasture for it to happen all over again the next day.

I'm asking the same same about Canadians. The answer is simple; the locals were raised here (there) and don't know anything else. So they don't ask questions you are asking. But fear not; If you ever move back to Kiwiland, you'll ask all kinds of questions about life over there. It's completely natural, you have an experience the locals are lacking. Sometimes I have an impression that at least a short term emigration should be mandatory.
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tu204
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:47 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 41):
So at 19 you could afford a BMW 740 Li to drive around campus but couldn't afford insurance? And it never occurred to you to buy a car more appropriate to a college student you age and use the savings to, I don't know, buy some car insurance? No issues whatsoever with having other people incur the burden of your (probably reckless) driving? And you even have the gall to boast about it in an internet forum? Incredible, just freaking incredible.

I bought a 1999 740iL for I think around $6500 if I recall correctly. I bought it because of comfort and because I like German cars and also because I got a very good deal on it. My other option would have been some crappy (no offence) American car for a little less? No thank you. Besides, it was my money so I it was my choice. Plus I liked the reaction of people seeing me in it  
As for driving around campus, well, not really. In Ottawa everything is pretty spread out, so I would have to drive around 14km to get to the airport from my home and so on and so on. For example, from my house to the airport by public transport would take me at least 2 hours. By car - 20 minutes.
Now with the reckless driving you took it too far. Have you ever driven with me or seen me drive? So how can you make such a (reckless) comment? I am a pretty safe driver and was so from when I got my license. It is something that my grandfather (who was a driver by profession and never had a single accident) taught me from a young age.
Again, no way in hell I was going to pay that much for insurance.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
MaverickM11
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RE: EU Court Of Human Rights Rules In Favour Of Males

Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:07 pm

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 34):
However, with the amount of taxes the Canadians pay, public transit should be there

It's all going to bringing your taxpayer into the world and caring for him until the grave

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 34):
However I am still awaiting an explanation as to why it cost more to insure an airplane with full coverage than a car. Any takers?

Well I'm just going to guess there are fewer airplane owners trying to freeload off the system, and most of them are much more highly trained than your average driver; both will go a long way to reducing risk.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 48):
Have you ever driven with me or seen me drive?

The "it could never happen to me" argument. What would you have done if you hit another
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