ALTF4
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Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:14 pm

Anybody heard some expert opinions from Pelosi yet on who we should blame this round of gas price hikes on? You'll remember last time it was because of "two oil men" in the white house. We're now pushing towards three years of "oil man free" leadership, so I'd be interested to know if she has chimed in yet on who we have the honor of blaming this time around.

http://articles.cnn.com/2008-07-17/p...rilling-anwr-pelosi?_s=PM:POLITICS

Anybody heard anything yet?
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:25 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Thread starter):
lame this round of gas price hikes on?

I assumed it was all the riots in the Middle East but that's just a guess...

[Edited 2011-03-08 12:32:36 by ManuCH]
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LAXintl
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:28 pm

While Libya certainly builds a bit of insecurity in the market, overall global demand is driving prices as economies rebound.

Now for Pelosi, if she is so worried about $4 gas, she should support further oil exploration off the California Coast.
Millions of acres of oil deposits were mapped out in the 1980s, but remain untapped due regulatory barriers.
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KPDX
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:32 pm

George W Bush











oh, and Palin.
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Aaron747
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:35 pm

The rest of the world, with few exceptions, has been paying out the nose for gas for the last 15+ years. Having previously paid $5+/gallon in Japan, I still chuckle at all the overreaction here at $3.75. Americans are absolutely spoiled. Had they just added a ten cent tax on gas around 2000 there would be no sudden adjustment to these prices and people would not be affected in such dire ways.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Now for Pelosi, if she is so worried about $4 gas, she should support further oil exploration off the California Coast.

She'd never support that because it would bury her lefty credentials. But don't single out California here - plenty going untapped in Alaska, the Gulf, and the shelf off the Carolinas as well.

[Edited 2011-03-08 12:33:17 by ManuCH]
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N1120A
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:40 pm

Same bunch of guys who ruined the economy before - speculators.
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bhill
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:47 pm

How about the weak regulations on the oil futures commodities markets? Like requiring the trader to actually take possesion of the oil you are bidding on?..after all, Saudia Arabia promised to make up the difference, why the uncertainty? I think the oil industry is shooting themselves in the foot. They should actually try to start monopolizing the alternate energy industries now while it is still in it's infancy...if they wait too long, their billions of profits..and billions in subsidies...will not be enough to monopolize it.
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:55 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Millions of acres of oil deposits were mapped out in the 1980s, but remain untapped due regulatory barriers.

Not enough to have any real impact on long-term oil prices. We can drill till we are blue in the face, but demand for oil will rapidly outstrip supply even with more drilling. You can't drill your way out of this problem.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
Having previously paid $5+/gallon in Japan, I still chuckle at all the overreaction here at $3.75.

The difference is that American's are so much more dependent on gas than the Japanese. We don't have the mass transit and rail networks that Japan does. Most American's live in low-density car reliant neighborhoods. Unfortunately, America's lifestyle was built on cheap energy. As cheap energy goes away, American's will face fundamental change in how they live and work.

[Edited 2011-03-08 12:35:21 by ManuCH]
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:08 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 9):
Like requiring the trader to actually take possesion of the oil you are bidding on?

What would the point of that be? Currency and precious metals are no different.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):
Not enough to have any real impact on long-term oil prices. We can drill till we are blue in the face, but demand for oil will rapidly outstrip supply even with more drilling. You can't drill your way out of this problem.

That's not really the point - the point is that until alternative energies are more widespread, larger percentages of domestic supplies drastically reduce the economic uncertainty that comes with relying on foreign export markets.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):
Unfortunately, America's lifestyle was built on cheap energy. As cheap energy goes away, American's will face fundamental change in how they live and work.

Yeah well who's fault was that? Most US cities were built on streetcar and rail networks.
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bhill
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:26 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
What would the point of that be? Currency and precious metals are no different.


Aaron, currency has no actual value at all, hence it's "fiat" definition. Oil, and other petroleum based products, are destroyed in their consumption, pork bellies as well, unlike precious metals or other fungible instruments. Besides, I wonder why the natural gas market is not as "emotional".
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IMissPiedmont
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:26 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Same bunch of guys who ruined the economy before - speculators.
Quoting bhill (Reply 9):
How about the weak regulations on the oil futures commodities markets?

There it is in a nutshell. I do wonder though why every state needs to have a different blend at different times of the year, that has to add to the price.

Oh, I find it funny that people who bitch about gas at $3.50 still drive like lunatics, but $4.00 cups of coffee, have $80.00 per month phone bills and $100.00 cable bills.
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N1120A
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:26 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):

Yeah well who's fault was that? Most US cities were built on streetcar and rail networks.

Bingo. L.A. used to have, arguably, the world's best public transport system.

Now. Well, its L.A.
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mham001
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:34 pm

Invest in electricity. Now. Let the oil producers starve.
 
ALTF4
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:36 pm

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 14):
Oh, I find it funny that people who bitch about gas at $3.50 still drive like lunatics, but $4.00 cups of coffee, have $80.00 per month phone bills and $100.00 cable bills.

All people who bitch about gas do those things?

News to me. I don't remember the last $4 cup of coffee. My TV watching consists of hulu. My cell phone bill is $35 a month. I can't be a lunatic driver (at least you definition, which I assume means accelerating too hard, driving too fast, etc) during gridlock.

Maybe I just don't bitch hard enough about gas.
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bhill
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:37 pm

Some interesting tidits on the CFTC:

" A proposal to consider reclassifying investment banks such as Goldman Sachs (GS) and Morgan Stanley (MS) as speculators, which would subject them to trading limits from which they're currently exempt.

" An investigation of the crude oil trading market dating to December, 2007. On May 30, The Wall Street Journal (NWS) reported that the CFTC has also expanded an investigation into allegations of short-term manipulation of crude oil prices through a price-reporting system overseen by Platts, the energy data unit of The McGraw-Hill Companies (MHP),et al."
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Aaron747
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:40 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 13):
Oil, and other petroleum based products, are destroyed in their consumption, pork bellies as well, unlike precious metals or other fungible instruments.

This is not a logical line of reasoning. Any product could conceivably be destroyed after it is purchased, and its purchase value is not determined by whether or not it will ever be destroyed. Commodities markets operate on the premise that there will be a more or less steady demand for the product by necessity rather than consumer whims. Requiring bidders to take possession would negate the entire system - you don't walk up to a street hawker, negotiate, and then have them say "you talked to me so you're required to leave with a trinket!".

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
Now. Well, its L.A.

Unfortunately a lot of Americans seem to have short memories that fuel their senses of entitlement to cheap gas.

If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
sw733
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:45 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
Having previously paid $5+/gallon in Japan

Hell I remember once paying approximately $9/gallon in Slovakia of all places...I think that was the most I ever had to pay.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:58 pm

Oil futures regulations will do squat. You pay something closer to spot price, not future prices. Right before oil collapsed back in 2008 or whenever that was, oil future markets were predicting it go even further up. It didn't!

The ONLY thing that can help is more supply access. . . regulations in this is the equivalent of cooking the books. . . it's all about bullshitting someone, and it ALWAYS fails. Magic doesn't exist people.

[Edited 2011-03-08 12:01:52]
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MaverickM11
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:32 pm

Pelosi should love $4+/gal gas; it'll do more for the environment than anything the government/the green movement/ Al Gore could cook up.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
Oil futures regulations will do squat. You pay something closer to spot price, not future prices. Right before oil collapsed back in 2008 or whenever that was, oil future markets were predicting it go even further up. It didn't!

I'm sorry that doesn't fit the speculators = grrrr eeeeeeeevil! storyline.
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fr8mech
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:35 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
The ONLY thing that can help is more supply access. . . regulations in this is the equivalent of cooking the books. . . it's all about bullshitting someone, and it ALWAYS fails. Magic doesn't exist people.


Amen. I find it completely irresponsible that our government refuses to allow oil companies to drill where ever there is oil (or gas, for that matter). Oil is the life blood of a capitalist economy. We must do what we can to exploit what is under our control. That will drive prices down because of the prospect of increased supply.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
Invest in electricity. Now. Let the oil producers starve.


So...what about all the oil fired powerplants? Or do we build more coal fired plants?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):
Because it's a global market and in the long-run it's not really possible for us to pay so much less for gas than others (excluding taxes).


I'm interested in what others are paying for gasoline before the various taxes are applied. I'll guess that it's about the same around the world (where the proper infrastructure exists), and that taxes make up the bulk of what other nations are paying. But, that's speculation on my part.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):
Not enough to have any real impact on long-term oil prices. We can drill till we are blue in the face, but demand for oil will rapidly outstrip supply even with more drilling. You can't drill your way out of this problem.


Quite simply, we need to produce more oil while developing new sources of energy. To shut out the fact the we have more oil under our feet and push forward in the vain hope that some new energy source will magically appear and change us from a petroleum based economy is fool-hardy. Hell, it would take a generation to switch over to this new magic fuel.

Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
So if high gas prices are what it takes to really get the push for alternative energy moving, it might not be the worst thing to happen.


At the cost of wrecking the economy? Again?

And, while we are on the subject...isn't it the function of the Department of Energy to provide policy and guidance for gaining energy independence and/or developing the new technologies? Fail.
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Mir
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:53 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
So...what about all the oil fired powerplants? Or do we build more coal fired plants?

Preferably not. Solar, wind, with a healthy dose of nuclear built in as well.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
At the cost of wrecking the economy? Again?

It's going to happen eventually. Who's to say that the next spike won't be worse?

-Mir
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mham001
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:55 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
So...what about all the oil fired powerplants? Or do we build more coal fired plants?

This is the kind of ignorance that sets us back a generation.

Less than 1% of US electricity production is made with oil.

Even the oldest, dirtiest coal power plant is more efficient than thousands of individual power plants in cars. Those old and dirty plants are routinely being phased out. Look out for natural gas power.

We need to get off the oil. It is going to happen sooner than many people think. I look forward to that. If you loved your country, you would too.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:26 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
Preferably not. Solar, wind, with a healthy dose of nuclear built in as well.


Nuclear is about the only alternative that has long term potential to supplant oil and coal fired plants. Wind and solar take up too much real estate and don't have the bang for the buck. And realistically, we don't have that many oil fired plants. Oil is here to stay because it is integral to our economy and is an ingredient or part of production of the vast majority of products.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
We need to get off the oil. It is going to happen sooner than many people think. I look forward to that. If you loved your country, you would too.


I look forward to it to, but we also need to be realistic. There is no alternative right now. Nothing that has the punch of oil. Again, if if this magic pill were found today, it would take a generation to switch over. That is who ingrained oil is in our society (both domestically and globally).
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futurepilot16
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:31 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Thread starter):
Anybody heard some expert opinions from Pelosi yet on who we should blame this round of gas price hikes on? You'll remember last time it was because of "two oil men" in the white house. We're now pushing towards three years of "oil man free" leadership, so I'd be interested to know if she has chimed in yet on who we have the honor of blaming this time around.

BLAME OBAMA!!!! It's what the cool    kids are doing!

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 13):
News to me. I don't remember the last $4 cup of coffee. My TV watching consists of hulu. My cell phone bill is $35 a month. I can't be a lunatic driver (at least you definition, which I assume means accelerating too hard, driving too fast, etc) during gridlock.

Take public transport...it's what the cool    kids who don't wanna pay for higher gas prices are doing!!!

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):

Quite simply, we need to produce more oil while developing new sources of energy.

I've been saying this for years and every time I say it, I get called a liberal tree hugger.
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BN747
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:04 am

Quoting ALTF4 (Thread starter):
You'll remember last time it was because of "two oil men" in the white house. We're now pushing towards three years of "oil man free" leadership,

They were simply the enablers, it's the 1st time Big Oil actually had their 'cover issue models' .. actually on the cover. But becuz they're gone..the rest of the magazine is still in check. .. and in charge.

Pelosi was right.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 15):
Unfortunately a lot of Americans seem to have short memories that fuel their senses of entitlement to cheap gas.

And rightfully, so..and thsi coming from a tree hugger. Your quote below explains it.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
Having previously paid $5+/gallon in Japan, I still chuckle at all the overreaction here at $3.75. Americans are absolutely spoiled.

I find this very interesting and have been wondering about thsi the last 5 or 6 years...

The biggest customer is suppose to get the best discount based on teh premise of supply & demand.

If British Airways marches into Chicago and tells Boeing 'We want 60 747-8is ..' do you think they'd get a substantial discount?

The same applies to Joe's Plumbing purchasing bulk from 'Bemis' (you all know that name..you've sat on it)

So if the US, being the largest consumer of oil..should by default get the best price for being the biggest customer, if the pattern holds. So if you were paying $5 a gallon in Japan saaayyyyy... 12 years ago, When we were paying say $1.70 and now 12 years later, Japan should be paying about $13.00 a gallon if we're paying $3.50 (today I paid $4.00).

But if Japan is still at 5 or 6 or even $7.. after 12 years, something is really really wrong in Big Consumer land. They are subsidizing someone .. somewhere.

The second largest consumer, China (my guess) should be on par with us...but because of state controls and other unseen antics..I bet there's no way gas is the same as it is here in the US.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...

I know in China

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
We need to get off the oil.

..and THAT .. will not happen.

Mr Big Oil Guys are like your street corner drug dealer...he's keeping you on board 'until he says you can leave...'
We Americans lack the dispciline to pull a 'Wisconsin' on Big Oil and send them a message they'll never forget, we gotta get to the game, get to therapy, get to the airport to shoot the A380, drop the kids off at the baby-sitter. We have no resolved ..except to complain about the prices as we get gouged.

And to this question : Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?
Accept no answer from ANYONE in the Big oil biz or any remotely affiliated industry or ancillary operation...they simply can't be trusted. BP and their lies, cover ups and now trying to weasel out of liabilities is all the proof one needs to show you that BIg Oil will tell you whatever they think you'll swallow.

BN747

[Edited 2011-03-08 16:36:41]
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Maverick623
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:27 am

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 10):

Oh, I find it funny that people who bitch about gas at $3.50 still drive like lunatics

Not only am I a very safe driver, I average 5MPG more than my car was rated at.

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 10):
but $4.00 cups of coffee

I don't normally drink coffee, and when I do it's a 35 cent cup from a vending machine.

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 10):
have $80.00 per month phone bills

$35.

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 10):
and $100.00 cable bills.

$50 for internet and $10 for Netflix. I watch all the shows and movies I want on there.


Oh, and at $3.50/gal, I pay about $70/month for gas. Before I moved closer to work, I would pay 3 times that amount (I went from a 60 mile/day commute to 15).
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Aesma
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:06 am

BN747 : it's not as simple as supply and demand, there is lots of politics, and oil companies aren't always from the country where they drill. Say, French Total is obviously not getting any oil from France as there isn't any. We still manage to get it at good prices. Of course, after taxes, gasoline is currently at more than 1,5€/l, or 8$/gal in your units.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:47 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
We need to get off the oil. It is going to happen sooner than many people think. I look forward to that. If you loved your country, you would too.

As someone actively involved in the energy infrastructure industry, I can assure you that hydrocarbons are not going anywhere in our lifetimes. Using hydrocarbons has no bearing on one's patriotism.  
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 15):
Unfortunately a lot of Americans seem to have short memories that fuel their senses of entitlement to cheap gas.

Everyone sure loves to bash Americans for the price they pay for fuel, but why should you pay any more than necessary for anything? It may actually cost >$5/gal due to the production costs that foreign countries like Japan face when they import virtually all of their hydrocarbons or in Europe where they have built a tax structure that relies on fuel sales.

But the U.S. has ample supply and a low fuel tax structure. Gasoline should not cost >$4.00 here, so people have every right to complain.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
At the cost of wrecking the economy? Again?

GDP growth and employment rates were strong through the duration of the oil price spike. It was only when the housing market tripped the GFC did GDP growth stumble.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:52 am

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 27):
But the U.S. has ample supply and a low fuel tax structure. Gasoline should not cost >$4.00 here, so people have every right to complain.

Maybe it would never have got so high here if we hadn't torn up all of the existing transportation infrastructure our cities enjoyed until the early to mid 1960s.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 27):
Everyone sure loves to bash Americans for the price they pay for fuel, but why should you pay any more than necessary for anything?

That's actually what I'm saying here...
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RayChuang
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:54 am

I blame it on the speculators taking advantage of the (on average) 5% minimum margin requirements (MMR) to trade in petroleum products futures in New York and Chicago. If we were to raise the MMR to 15% you'll see a lot less "make a fast buck" speculators and we could see the price of crude oil fall US$20/barrel or more.
 
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:22 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 24):
The second largest consumer, China (my guess) should be on par with us...but because of state controls and other unseen antics..I bet there's no way gas is the same as it is here in the US.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...



China is actually drilling and producing oil for themselves worldwide. They are making an effort to become self dependant on production with their own drilling/production/refining.

I suspect that you missed that many thousands of Chinese were in Libya drilling for themselves or that China is real busy in the GOM and drilling away not having to meet any US requirements or that they are financing/drilling/producing a huge gas find in Texas.

It will not be but a few years until they will be able to be relatively energy independent with other peoples oil and gas and then sell the excess to the US because we have no energy policy.

Okie
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:27 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 28):
Maybe it would never have got so high here if we hadn't torn up all of the existing transportation infrastructure our cities enjoyed until the early to mid 1960s.

But probably not. It's not even a matter of hindsight. There's no point pretending that an alternate timeline exist where changing one variable eliminated a problem we face today and results in no unforeseen consequences. The reason that infrastructure got "torn up" is because people weren't using it. It isn't the preferred way Americans want to travel. So if we had insisted that Americans use it anyway, how do we know those cities would have developed to the extent they have today? We could possible have an even more diffuse population that travels and uses even more energy. We just don't know.

What we do know is how much is in the ground. We enjoyed cheap oil for the better part of 1980-2000 because the response to the Arab Oil Embargoes was a massive investment in production capacity worldwide. An over-investment, it proved. But while new production was depressed, regulatory rules cinched up around producers such that vast areas of resources have stayed off-limits or mired with red tape.

It's just not an option not to produce more.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:32 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 29):
I blame it on the speculators taking advantage of the (on average) 5% minimum margin requirements (MMR) to trade in petroleum products futures in New York and Chicago. If we were to raise the MMR to 15% you'll see a lot less "make a fast buck" speculators and we could see the price of crude oil fall US$20/barrel or more.

A contributing factor as to why speculators have so much leverage is because the margin between global production and global demand is so narrow. It doesn't take but one or two production disruptions to cause the marketplace to turn dysfunctional.
 
mham001
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:35 am

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 27):
As someone actively involved in the energy infrastructure industry, I can assure you that hydrocarbons are not going anywhere in our lifetimes. Using hydrocarbons has no bearing on one's patriotism.

That comment is directed at those who refuse to even entertain the idea of transportation without oil. Yes that can happen and it won't take forever to make a big difference. Electric or natural gas are here now. Refusing to accept that is bad for our national interests and bad for our country.

Quoting okie (Reply 30):
It will not be but a few years until they will be able to be relatively energy independent with other peoples oil and gas and then sell the excess to the US because we have no energy policy.

Being as how they are involved in branching out to Africa, etc, to meet their ever-growing demand, how can you say they would be "energy independent"?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:50 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 33):
That comment is directed at those who refuse to even entertain the idea of transportation without oil. Yes that can happen and it won't take forever to make a big difference. Electric or natural gas are here now. Refusing to accept that is bad for our national interests and bad for our country.

Frankly, it's irrelevant to our national interests.

The electric or natural gas vehicles that are "here now" have essentially zero market share. It will probably take upwards of 25 years - a quarter century - for meaningful numbers to be on the road, and that is ambitious. That's not a reason not to do them, but at least manage your expectations.
 
Mike89406
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:10 am

The protests in the middle east certainly don't help things. I remember having a class discussion about gas prices in Microeconomics. The demand for gas is inelastic therefore IIRC many countries place taxes on gas for short-run profit. In essence products like gas, tobacco are an easy sources of revenue for countries. And lastly oil is past peak production as has been reported, however I'm not sure how accurate this is.

Regards, Mike
 
seb146
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:15 am

Might I remind everyone that the price of oil was going up before the Middle East stuff started. There was no real reason for that. Not that anyone could see, anyway. Just simply the price going up. And it continues to go up because OPEC wants the price to go up, I would imagine.

I honestly and truly believe that we need to get away from oil once and for all. Coal, wind, nuclear, solar, hydrogen fuel cell... Anything but oil.
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
doug_or
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:18 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
Not only am I a very safe driver, I average 5MPG more than my car was rated at.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
I don't normally drink coffee, and when I do it's a 35 cent cup from a vending machine.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
$50 for internet and $10 for Netflix. I watch all the shows and movies I want on there.


Oh, and at $3.50/gal, I pay about $70/month for gas. Before I moved closer to work, I would pay 3 times that amount (I went from a 60 mile/day commute to 15).

Where is the cargo hold when you need it?
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
mham001
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:32 am

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 34):
Frankly, it's irrelevant to our national interests.

Really.

We import 66% of our oil. We use 50% of our oil for transportation. We sent $300+ Billion last year out of the country in oil purchases. Some of that is being used to kill our soldiers and wreak havoc around the world. Despite higher mpg's from our vehicle over the last 2 decades, our oil needs continue to rise with population growth.

Meanwhile, we spent $1 Trillion in defense last year. Much of that is spent protecting our (and worlds) oil supply. 2% of our oil demand is from the military. Much of this spending is accumulating as debt, controlled by foreign entities. It is unknown how we will pay it back.

If we were to lose the need to protect foreign oil supplies, we could easily pare down the military spending by 1/3rd. A spare $350 Billion would by a lot of electric cars or about 8 million Chevrolet Volts - every year. The effect of keeping $300+ Billion of foreign oil sales currency in country - ???.

How exactly can it not be relevant to our national interests?

BTW, I highly recommend this speech by the Navy Secretary which touches on the implications of our energy dependence on our national security... youtube.com/watch?v=p1i2vL8VWWc

“There are a lot of profound reasons for doing this, but for us at the core it’s practical,” said Ray Mabus, the Navy secretary and a former ambassador to Saudi Arabia, who has said he wants 50 percent of the power for the Navy and Marines to come from renewable energy sources by 2020. That figure includes energy for bases as well as fuel for cars and ships."
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:17 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 36):
There was no real reason for that. Not that anyone could see, anyway. Just simply the price going up.

You mean aside from a threefold increase in demand from Chinese and Indian consumers over the last decade? And that's only two countries. Pesky thing, facts are.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 31):
The reason that infrastructure got "torn up" is because people weren't using it.

A highly debatable statement.

http://www.moderntransit.org/ctc/ctc05.html

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 31):
It isn't the preferred way Americans want to travel.

No, driving simply became the only viable option in most established cities. And in most places with smaller populations that didn't grow until after this was all going on in the 50s - namely the Sunbelt - there was never another option.

In any case that contention is debatable as well - New York has remained the epicenter of old economy wealth and indestructible real estate values for the last hundred years and largely has the continued existence of mass transit to thank for it. Imagine trying to get around the place without the subways and commuter trains.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 31):
So if we had insisted that Americans use it anyway, how do we know those cities would have developed to the extent they have today?

It's arguable they would be more efficient than today with fewer total metropolitan congestion hours, less of a parking crunch in employment centers and all resultant lost productivity. I'm really not even concerned with the "green" side - just lost productivity. Americans residing in at least 12 urban centers spend unacceptable amounts of time sitting in traffic.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 31):

It's just not an option not to produce more.

You'll note we don't disagree on this point.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:53 pm

By the way, I'm not a believer in peak oil.

Here's the reason why: the majority of the world's oilfields still old older-style methods on extracting oil out of the ground, and as such they're going to be "tapped out" pretty soon. But technologies developed originally for extracting the highly-viscous oil from California oil fields--California crude oil so viscous it's very unlikely to flow out of laboratory glass beaker at room temperature!--using injection of high-pressure steam, CO2 gas or even special liquid detergent fluids--can tremendously extend the life of many oilfields. (By the way, it should be noted that California crude oil has to be heated to 60 degrees Celsius just to make it flow in oil pipelines or even pumped into oil tanker railroad cars.)

This means we could extract out the oil sitting in these "tapped out" oilfields economically. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised that if we used fluid/gas injection that the oilfields in Saudi Arabia could get a completely new lease on life.

In short, the reason why there isn't more oil production is for political reasons, not technical reasons. Small wonder why the price of oil is circa US$107/barrel.
 
windy95
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:43 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Same bunch of guys who ruined the economy before - speculators

They are called investors.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 40):
n short, the reason why there isn't more oil production is for political reasons, not technical reasons. Small wonder why the price of oil is circa US$107/barrel.

One new application has been passed by the Administration since the Gulf Spill. We have one person to blame and he sits in the White house. Still no new Refineries. Government is to blame and yet some of you want Government to take over.  

And how many jobs have been lost due to the lack of new drilling?
 
baroque
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:15 pm

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 10):
Oh, I find it funny that people who bitch about gas at $3.50 still drive like lunatics, but $4.00 cups of coffee, have $80.00 per month phone bills and $100.00 cable bills.

   But it seems not so many share our sense of reality/humour!!

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
So...what about all the oil fired powerplants? Or do we build more coal fired plants?

This is the kind of ignorance that sets us back a generation.

Less than 1% of US electricity production is made with oil.

Even the oldest, dirtiest coal power plant is more efficient than thousands of individual power plants in cars. Those old and dirty plants are routinely being phased out. Look out for natural gas power.

   Thank heaven someone noticed. Why does a thread on oil bring out the most extraordinary misapprehensions.

I was tempted to offer to swim across all the oil that is ever extracted from offshore Carolinas, but I suppose some might be lurking there in what is otherwise not a very promising province.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 40):
California crude oil so viscous it's very unlikely to flow out of laboratory glass beaker at room temperature!--using injection of high-pressure steam, CO2 gas or even special liquid detergent fluids--can tremendously extend the life of many oilfields. (By the way, it should be noted that California crude oil has to be heated to 60 degrees Celsius just to make it flow in oil pipelines or even pumped into oil tanker railroad cars.)

This means we could extract out the oil sitting in these "tapped out" oilfields economically. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised that if we used fluid/gas injection that the oilfields in Saudi Arabia could get a completely new lease on life.

Not sure when secondary recovery started in CA fields, but Tertiary recovery has been in progress for 30 years (maybe a bit more).

Sorry to spring this as what is apparently a surprise:
http://gastoday.com.au/news/co2_pipelines_not_so_far_away/001435/
The US experience While there is approximately 2,500 kilometres of carbon dioxide pipelines in the United States, transporting 47 MMt/a, the experience developed through these projects does not mean the transportation of carbon dioxide for CCS projects is a well defined proposition.

Generally, the existing US pipelines transport mainly naturally occurring, relatively pure carbon dioxide to be used in onshore enhanced oil recovery (EOR). EOR tends to yield an additional 4–5 barrels of oil for each tonne of carbon dioxide injected into a reservoir, providing a significant economic driver for these projects.


Ah here are some more exact data:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=enhanced-oil-recovery
The Scurry Area Canyon Reef Operators Committee oil field, better known as SACROC, near Snyder, Tex., has slurped 140 million metric tons of liquid carbon dioxide (CO2) since 1972—80 million metric tons of which has stayed trapped in the reservoir. Pumping all that CO2 down has meant pumping more oil out.

For 36 years, oil services companies like Denbury Resources and Kinder Morgan have piped carbon dioxide from naturally occurring reservoirs in Colorado to the declining oil fields of the Permian Basin in West Texas.

The U.S. has at least 100 such projects like SACROC and 3,100 miles (5,000 kilometers) of CO2 pipelines. All told, companies have injected some 10.8 trillion cubic feet of the greenhouse gas since the 1970s, according to petroleum engineer R. Tim Bradley, Kinder Morgan's president of CO2, to raise the yield from oil fields by some 650,000 extra barrels a day—more than 10 percent of daily U.S. total production.

Most important with respect to carbon capture and storage (CCS), the Great Plains Synfuels Plant in North Dakota has pumped as much as two million metric tons of carbon dioxide a year to the Weyburn oil field in Saskatchewan since 2000.


Ghawar in Saudi Arabia has been on water flood for a couple of decades. SA already has steam flood in one large field and intends to start carbon dioxide flood in parts of Ghawar by 2013. While enhanced recovery increases total recoveries, generally it does not result in production rates reaching those in the first 25% of the life of a field. And it appears that prices are now being driven to a significant extent by production capacity or rather the lack of it.
 
dxing
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:40 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
Had they just added a ten cent tax on gas around 2000 there would be no sudden adjustment to these prices and people would not be affected in such dire ways.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense Aaron. The price per gallon has gone up a lot more than a dime in recent weeks. The federal fuel excise tax currently stands at 18.4 cents per gallon. No mention made of temporarily eliminating that which would have a much more immediate impact on price than releasing oil from the strategic reserve would.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 7):
You can't drill your way out of this problem.

But you can't stop drilling either than that is exactly what the administrations policy in the gulf has been for the past 11 months.

Quoting bhill (Reply 9):
Aaron, currency has no actual value at all, hence it's "fiat" definition.

I'll remember that next time I convert dollars to euros.

Quoting bhill (Reply 9):
Besides, I wonder why the natural gas market is not as "emotional".

Because we have a huge resource of it right here in this country.

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
Preferably not. Solar, wind, with a healthy dose of nuclear built in as well.

T. Boone Pickens abandoned his wind projects that cost him roughly a billion dollars. Solar farms take up a huge amount of real estate compared to even the most massive oil rigs. If you can get the left to go along nuclear would be the way to go but the plants themselves are hugely expensive and until we come up with a good way to deal with the waste rather than store it on site we are just compounding a problem that already is a growing concern.

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
It's going to happen eventually. Who's to say that the next spike won't be worse?

So we should destroy an economy rather than let the prices settle naturally? When alternative energy becomes as economical as oil innovations will flood the market.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
If you loved your country, you would too.

That's a pretty sad guilt trip to try and lay on anyone. If you loved your country you would be looking to find the cheapest energy source available enmasse for everyone.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 24):
They were simply the enablers,

Then so is our current President by remaining silent and refusing to help oust Gadhafi.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 24):
..I bet there's no way gas is the same as it is here in the US.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...

I know in China

No it's not, but you don't have a gas station/convenience store on every other corner either. China also keeps their price per gallon artificially low just as certain other countries keep it artificially high by imposing huge taxes on it. The prices in the article are from 2005 when we in the United States were paying anywhere from $1.90 pre-Katrina to $3.00 post Katrina.

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/

http://gasbuddy.com/gb_retail_price_chart.aspx

Quoting BN747 (Reply 24):
BP and their lies, cover ups and now trying to weasel out of liabilities is all the proof one needs to show you that BIg Oil will tell you whatever they think you'll swallow.

You'll have to provide some proof that they are trying to "weasel" out of their liabilities other than someone who feels they should have gotten more than they did. The government is in charge of distributing the 20 billion BP made available and no one has blocked any court action against them. They are still paying for on going clean up where oil appears on beachs and for sand dredging of the beaches to get at the oil that leached into the sand.

Perhaps we should also demand some accountability from people like Al Gore when, after doing everything they could to scare the public so they could make their personal fortunes off of swindels like "carbon credits" they then come out and say things like votes, not science, led him to vote for corn based ethanol.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40317079/ns/us_news-environment/

Wonder what else besides science leads him to postulate for certain things?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 28):
Maybe it would never have got so high here if we hadn't torn up all of the existing transportation infrastructure our cities enjoyed until the early to mid 1960s.

Which leads one to wonder why it is so expensive to lay rail. It certainly wasn't that expensive back then relative to the cost now in today's dollars. Somewhere between a mil to a mil five per mile depending on where you are at. That is one reason most cities are shy about adopting it.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 33):
Electric or natural gas are here now. Refusing to accept that is bad for our national interests and bad for our country.

My wife and I are looking for a new car. When we went out last week we tried to look at a Volt, none are available and since then a report has come out that the 100 miles per charge is a fantasy with reality being more like 35 miles between charges. The same appears true for the Leaf which is also not available at dealers at this time. There are no public CNG stations anywhere near my home. There are three down towards central Houston but that would be an hour and a half round trip, hardly efficient. So while electric and CNG are here now, they are hardly viable solutions for most people.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 36):
Anything but oil.

Name the substance that can replace oil in all it does? Can solar or wind lubricate?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 38):
We import 66% of our oil. We use 50% of our oil for transportation.

Which means that 50% of it is used for other things such as lubrication or as part of complex chemical chain used to build everything from plastics to perfume. Will wind, solar, gas, or nuclear replace that?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:52 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):

And how many jobs have been lost due to the lack of new drilling?

Shouldn't you question be: "how many new jobs have not been created due to lack of new drilling?"

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 22):
Nuclear is about the only alternative that has long term potential to supplant oil and coal fired plants.

What about Natural gas?

Quoting dxing (Reply 43):
T. Boone Pickens abandoned his wind projects that cost him roughly a billion dollars.

He abandoned it because he assumed most of his investment would be paid by Texas taxpayers. What that didn't happen, he backed out

Quoting dxing (Reply 43):
Solar farms take up a huge amount of real estate compared to even the most massive oil rigs.

Have you seen the California, Arizona and Nevada deserts? Plenty, plenty sunny land not doing anything.

Quoting dxing (Reply 43):
Can solar or wind lubricate?

What percentage of the oil consumption is used for "lubrication?"
Step into my office, baby
 
Okie
Posts: 3551
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:33 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 33):

Being as how they are involved in branching out to Africa, etc, to meet their ever-growing demand, how can you say they would be "energy independent"?


Here is a clue.

Quoting dxing (Reply 43):
No it's not, but you don't have a gas station/convenience store on every other corner either. China also keeps their price per gallon artificially low just as certain other countries keep it artificially high by imposing huge taxes on it


China drills/produces/refines a continuing larger percentage of their's and someone else's oil. The only cost they have are labor and capital expenditures for production. They are most likely delivering to the refinery at less the $20 US per barrel. They can charge what they want at the pump.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 44):
What percentage of the oil consumption is used for "lubrication?"


So I take it your suggestion is to go back to whaling, the original source of lubricating oils to provide lubrication needs?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 39):
It's arguable they would be more efficient than today with fewer total metropolitan congestion hours, less of a parking crunch in employment centers and all resultant lost productivity. I'm really not even concerned with the "green" side - just lost productivity. Americans residing in at least 12 urban centers spend unacceptable amounts of time sitting in traffic.


I just do not seem to hold the idea that the US taxpayer should be paying for infrastructure that became unprofitable for 50 or 60 years. The idea of taxpayers supporting a technology that economically failed in low population density areas does not make sense or the concept that new technology will not find an economical replacement and we should go into technological reverse.

Okie
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:38 pm

Quoting okie (Reply 45):
So I take it your suggestion is to go back to whaling, the original source of lubricating oils to provide lubrication needs?

Where did i mention whaling? I asked what percentage our oil consumption goes to producing lubricants.
Step into my office, baby
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:41 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 43):
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense Aaron. The price per gallon has gone up a lot more than a dime in recent weeks. The federal fuel excise tax currently stands at 18.4 cents per gallon.

Huge brain fart - I meant to type 10 cents per year. Some of those monies could have been used to get the DOE off its ass and facilitate rapid exploration of key domestic sites.

Quoting dxing (Reply 43):

Which leads one to wonder why it is so expensive to lay rail

Costs associated with union labor?   

It was cheaper in the 20s and 30s because most rail lines were laid as a means of real estate speculation. That methodology obviously wouldn't be fruitful now.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:44 pm

There have has several attacks on pipelines both in Libya and Iraq lately. Does not help on the price.
 
mham001
Posts: 4224
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:12 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 43):
When alternative energy becomes as economical as oil innovations will flood the market.

It is now cheaper to produce solar power than (IIRC) most all other forms. I've forgotten the details, but solar is below $2/watt, thanks to the Chinese flooding the market. DARPA is working to get that to $1/watt very quickly. This is a game changer. Now for improved storage means.

Quoting dxing (Reply 43):
My wife and I are looking for a new car. When we went out last week we tried to look at a Volt, none are available and since then a report has come out that the 100 miles per charge is a fantasy with reality being more like 35 miles between charges.

That just shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. The Volt never had 100 mile range. The Volt has a separate ICE motor to handle any trip beyond the battery capacity. They capped battery capacity around 40 miles because most people don't travel farther than that every day.

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