speedygonzales
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Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:22 am

Some happy news from Illinois. Gov. Quinn signed a bill abolishing death penalty wedensday 9.3.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/03...s.death.penalty/index.html?npt=NP1

Hopefully more states and countries will follow and abolish this barbaric medieval practice.
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Superfly
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:41 am

I'm sure the Community Organizers on the South Side of Chicago are happy that the killers of Derrion Albert will get to live.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-Y9t5PxmD0&feature=related
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aloges
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:16 am

Quoting speedygonzales (Thread starter):
Hopefully more states and countries will follow and abolish this barbaric medieval practice.

   Revenge is not the same as justice.
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CPH-R
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:32 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
I'm sure the Community Organizers on the South Side of Chicago are happy that the killers of Derrion Albert will get to live.

Because rotting away in a prison for the rest of his life is all "happy happy, joy joy".  
 
Superfly
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:44 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 3):
Because rotting away in a prison for the rest of his life is all "happy happy, joy joy".

For many criminals it is.
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CPH-R
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:08 am

And others gets to spend the time being someone elses "playmate".

And in those cases where it goes all wrong, and a convicted person is subsequently acquitted, him/her not being dead is usually a good thing.

[Edited 2011-03-10 06:59:15 by SA7700]
 
tu204
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:44 am

I understand Superfly's point that some criminals enjoy life in prison, however, speaking from my point of view, I would rather die than live in a high security prison, spending 23 hours a day in a 3x4m cell.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:36 pm

I'm against the death penalty but at the same time I'm for a miserable life in prison instead. Call me cruel and unusual, but if they are stuck in a cell all day and all night with nothing to do, serves them right I say
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Maverick623
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:34 pm

It amazes me that people still think that animals who kill others in cold blood deserve any rights at all.
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aloges
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:23 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
animals who kill others in cold blood

Hmm... there's loads of predators, birds of prey and whatnot around who do that on a pretty regular basis.

...or were you getting at something else?   
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mt99
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:26 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
It amazes me that people still think that animals who kill others in cold blood deserve any rights at all.

But the Bible tells you so..
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:34 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 9):
there's loads of predators, birds of prey and whatnot around who do that on a pretty regular basis.

Do they kill their own species? Little unfair to compare the two, if you know what I'm saying

-DiamondFlyer
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aloges
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:00 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 11):
Do they kill their own species?

Certainly - the praying mantis and black widow come to mind.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 11):
Little unfair to compare the two, if you know what I'm saying

The "animal" reference was in reply no. 8, which I didn't post.  
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speedygonzales
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:11 pm

Death penalty has never been, and never will be, about justice or deterrence. It's pure revenge. Murdering people and calling it justice is the ultimate hypocrisy.

Besides the fact that murder, also in the name of 'justice', is a horrible crime, death penalty has shown itself to be an extremely ineffective deterrent. The best argument against it, IMO, is that there's a non-zero chance of murdering an innocent. The US has a long and shameful history of doing this, and other countries with poorer legal protection are probably worse still.


People who can justify murder has something wired seriously wrong between their ears.
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Maverick623
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:27 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 9):
Hmm... there's loads of predators, birds of prey and whatnot around who do that on a pretty regular basis.

They do not kill their own.

Quoting aloges (Reply 12):

Certainly - the praying mantis and black widow come to mind.

I'd like to think humans are slightly above them in intelligence and such.

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 13):
Death penalty has never been, and never will be, about justice or deterrence. It's pure revenge. Murdering people and calling it justice is the ultimate hypocrisy.

Anyone who claims "justice is served" really means "I got my revenge". This is not about justice;

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 13):
death penalty has shown itself to be an extremely ineffective deterrent.

nor is it about deterrence. It's about removing a danger to innocent lives from the public, permanently, and without undue cost.

For the record, I do believe the death penalty should only be used on those who either show no remorse or express pride in their unjustified killing. They are a threat to everyone and they need to be eliminated. It's not about revenge, it's about survival.

And frankly, the current system IS broken. It's disgusting that the average wait time on death row numbers in the decades.

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 13):

People who can justify murder has something wired seriously wrong between their ears.

My doctor would disagree. (I seriously love how people question my mental health when they disagree with me. It's hilarious).
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
aloges
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:49 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
They do not kill their own.

Oh, yes they do:

Quote:
Infanticide

Infanticide is a common practice in most mammals. Male lions use infanticide to get rid of offspring in a newly acquired pride that are not genetically related to the male coalition. Solitary males are also capable of killing the offspring of an encountered pride. Female lions have also been observed to kill cubs from a rival pride, but they would never kill cubs from their own pride. The dead offspring are sometimes consumed as an energy source and other times they are simply just eradicated for the sake of it. Older cubs and sub-adults have a better chance of being able to escape incoming infanticidal males than younger cubs.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
I'd like to think humans are slightly above them in intelligence and such.

OK, I agree, but then why did you post something about animals? Were you calling convicted criminals "animals"?
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Maverick623
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:43 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 15):

Oh, yes they do:

I stand corrected.

Quoting aloges (Reply 15):
OK, I agree, but then why did you post something about animals? Were you calling convicted criminals "animals"?

The human species is an animal, and a dangerous one at that. True, we have greater intelligence than any other, but that doesn't mean we don't have baser instincts.

I guess I'm pointing out the problem with trying to claim the moral high ground when we allow a direct threat to survival and happiness to continue to exist.

Think of it as the problem with The Operative from Serenity. You try to make a perfect world, but if you let that evil continue than that world won't ever be; but if you remove that evil, you still have no place in that perfect world.

I argue for the pragmatic approach: you take the worst, the ones with no hope and nothing but malice in their blood, and you permanently remove them from the equation.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Thorben
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:18 pm

  

This is another step into the right direction. I hope one day we'll see the end of this barbaric practice all around the world.

   to you, Governor Quinn.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
I'm sure the Community Organizers on the South Side of Chicago are happy that the killers of Derrion Albert will get to live.

I don't know anything about it, but I'm happy that he will not be executed.

Quoting aloges (Reply 2):
Revenge is not the same as justice.

100% agreed.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
Quoting CPH-R (Reply 3):
Because rotting away in a prison for the rest of his life is all "happy happy, joy joy".

For many criminals it is.

With all respect, I think you're completely wrong. People have different perceptions of how much freedom they need, but I don't think anybody would enjoy life in prison. People could arrange themselves with it, but it would still not be happiness.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 6):
I would rather die than live in a high security prison, spending 23 hours a day in a 3x4m cell.

I feel the same, especially when there would be zero chance of ever coming out.

Quoting aloges (Reply 12):
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 11):
Do they kill their own species?

Certainly - the praying mantis and black widow come to mind.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
I'd like to think humans are slightly above them in intelligence and such.

A lot of animals kill their own, crocodiles, antelopes, lions, even monkeys. It is some weird old romantic thought to think that animals are better than humans in that regard.

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 13):

100% agreed.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
My doctor would disagree. (I seriously love how people question my mental health when they disagree with me. It's hilarious).

Agreeing to the death penalty is not a question of mental health, it is a lack of maturity rather. 12-15 years ago I was for it as well, but then I matured. So people who are for it are back at a less mature and more childish state.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
I argue for the pragmatic approach: you take the worst, the ones with no hope and nothing but malice in their blood, and you permanently remove them from the equation.

Remove them from the equation? One can remove people to the prison and let them go when they have done their sentence to give them a chance to start again. If they are really so bad, that they are too dangerous, they should go to a mental institution. But killing them? No way.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
aloges
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:23 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
The human species is an animal, and a dangerous one at that. True, we have greater intelligence than any other, but that doesn't mean we don't have baser instincts.

"Homo homini lupus", that sort of thing?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
I argue for the pragmatic approach: you take the worst, the ones with no hope and nothing but malice in their blood, and you permanently remove them from the equation.

That's where we disagree. I don't think it's any man's decision to end the life of another man (or woman, of course, but that's beside the point). No matter what the criminal has done, the safety of society does not take precedence over the human right to life - especially when facilities exist that can keep society safe from brutal murderers without taking their lives.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
baroque
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:39 pm

Nous sommes tous des assassins (1952)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044977/

True then and true now.

In World War II, the illiterate, starving and alcoholic twenty years old René Le Guen fights to survive and lives with his dysfunctional family in a slum. The French Resistance invites and teaches him to kill Germans and traitors. When the war ends, he continues to kill and is arrested, judged and sentenced to death in the guillotine.

But in what way was the state different when it guillotined him?

Quoting Thorben (Reply 17):
This is another step into the right direction. I hope one day we'll see the end of this barbaric practice all around the world.

to you, Governor Quinn.

     
 
na
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:42 pm

Very good. Humans shouldnt kill, not even by law. Life imprisonment can and often will be a worse penalty than death.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:45 am

I have no problem with the death penalty, per se. Someone like Jeffrey Dahmer should have been executed immediately with minimal fuss.

What I have a problem with is the assurance that the party is guilty.

There are entirely too many people who have sat on Death Row only to be found innocent decades later.

I have often felt that execution should be something that criminals are offered, but not forced to do. If someone pleads guilty and doesn't want to be a burden on society, then that individual should have the choice between life in prison, or death.

I personally would choose death.
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Superfly
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:27 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 17):
With all respect, I think you're completely wrong.
Quoting Thorben (Reply 17):
I don't know anything about it


Well, well.



To those of us that value freedom, life in prison would be hell. To those that don't value freedom, life in prison as just another way of life and still be able to have influence. I'd like to elaborate more but those comments were deleted.
It may be hard for some of you to wrap you mind around it but many criminal minded people have no problem with life in prison at all.
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agill
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RE: Human Rights Prevail In Illinois

Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:06 am

Quoting na (Reply 20):

Very good. Humans shouldnt kill, not even by law. Life imprisonment can and often will be a worse penalty than death.

But saying that must as bad as supporting death penalty since it wasn't supposed to be about revenge right?   

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