srbmod
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Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:29 pm

This thread is for the continuing discussion of the earthquake and resulting tsunami in Japan. Continuing from Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan (by SMOLT Mar 10 2011 in Non Aviation)
 
PPVRA
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:50 pm

Ground still moving in Japan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa0WpKVAn3M

Crazy stuff.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
smolt
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:51 pm

Ah Furo ni hairi tai (Oh I want to take the bath)
Jisin Irai Haitte Naiyo (I have never taken since the earth quake began)
Ie ha Dansui siteru karane (Beacuse Water Has been stopped)
Toire mo kinou kara Tsukenai ( Also the Toilet is banned because exaust tube stucks)
Mizu kumi ni ikuno Mendou da (It's a mess to bring water with palastic bottles)
Teiden mo Komaru (Also a mess is the electrocity temporary stop )
Yoru ni Teiden shitara Makura ni naruyo ( Night is a total darkness when the power stops at night)
Densha mo rokuni Ugoitenai (Most Trains do not move)
Shokuryou mo matomoni kaenai ( Can't buy food at the shop)
Kyouha Genpatsu Bakuhatsu shitekara hajimete Kitakaze ga Fuku (Today for the first time Wind blows from the North since the nuclear plant blasted)
Daijoubu kana (Is this all right?)
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:52 pm

The UN has put together a list of important Twitterers with news about events surrounding the quake:

http://www.undispatch.com/must-follo...terers-on-the-earthquake-in-japan#

Some of them have highly interesting news and links.

Also, if you're in the Pacific NW and thinking about stocking up on iodine in case of a nuclear cloud coming in from Japan, here's an in-depth article on the subject from the Oregon Herald regarding what to get, why you probably can't get it at the pharmacy, and why you probably don't need it:

Oregonians Panic, Rush Stores For Iodine As Nuclear Meltdown Looms In Japan
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MarSciGuy
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:16 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 1):
Ground still moving in Japan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa0WpKVAn3M

Crazy stuff.

That video was posted on the 11th to youtube, and from the info section looks like it came via other news sites...I believe in other words that it is from the original quake on Friday...

Also, even if it WAS from today, aftershocks occur for MONTHS after the earthquake - case in point the recent Christchurch quake was an aftershock of the last major NZ quake about 6 months ago...
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Silver1SWA
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:39 pm

Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 4):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 1):
Ground still moving in Japan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa0WpKVAn3M

Crazy stuff.

That video was posted on the 11th to youtube, and from the info section looks like it came via other news sites...I believe in other words that it is from the original quake on Friday...

Also, even if it WAS from today, aftershocks occur for MONTHS after the earthquake - case in point the recent Christchurch quake was an aftershock of the last major NZ quake about 6 months ago...

That video was taken shortly after the quake in an area constructed over landfill. The man-made land had been compromised and if I had to guess, was floating due to liquefaction.

[Edited 2011-03-14 16:40:00]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
aloges
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:41 pm

I'm amazed by the apparent calmness and composure of the quake and tsunami victims shown on TV here. I cannot imagine how I would react, but I think it'd be less dignified.
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MarSciGuy
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:12 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 5):
Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 4):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 1):
Ground still moving in Japan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa0WpKVAn3M

Crazy stuff.

That video was posted on the 11th to youtube, and from the info section looks like it came via other news sites...I believe in other words that it is from the original quake on Friday...

Also, even if it WAS from today, aftershocks occur for MONTHS after the earthquake - case in point the recent Christchurch quake was an aftershock of the last major NZ quake about 6 months ago...

That video was taken shortly after the quake in an area constructed over landfill. The man-made land had been compromised and if I had to guess, was floating due to liquefaction.

[Edited 2011-03-14 16:40:00]

Don't ask me why I didn't think to add that part   it's pretty amazing/frightening to see liquefaction actually occurring, I've only heard of it happening on a scale such as that before...
"There weren't a ton of gnats there where a ton of gnats and their families as well!"
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:19 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 6):
I'm amazed by the apparent calmness and composure of the quake and tsunami victims shown on TV here.

Perhaps they're still in shock. That's quite dismobilizing both physically and mentally.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:30 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 6):

I'm amazed by the apparent calmness and composure of the quake and tsunami victims shown on TV here. I cannot imagine how I would react, but I think it'd be less dignified.

I heard it is a cultural thing. Even so, it would be hard for anyone to keep their composure! Good luck Japan, been praying for you!
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
PPVRA
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:58 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 5):
That video was taken shortly after the quake in an area constructed over landfill. The man-made land had been compromised and if I had to guess, was floating due to liquefaction.

Yeah I figured it wasn't as of today, but I assumed it wasn't that old either. Still,

Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 7):
it's pretty amazing/frightening to see liquefaction actually occurring, I've only heard of it happening on a scale such as that before...

. . pretty amazing indeed.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
cbphoto
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:32 am

Just heard on the news, the Earthquake was upgraded to a 9.0 now, making it the strongest in nearly a 100 years! Its just unbelievable the images and videos of the destruction! I know Japan will rebound eventually, but the human loss is unimaginable. My prayers are with everyone in Japan, especially for the survivors who have to rebuild their lives over again!
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wolbo
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:28 am

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 11):
Just heard on the news, the Earthquake was upgraded to a 9.0 now, making it the strongest in nearly a 100 years!

The strongest for Japan but not worldwide. The catastrophic 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake was 9.1.
 
jetfuel
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:56 am

Air China, the country's flag carrier, has cancelled flights from Beijing and Shanghai to Tokyo on Tuesday afternoon and in the evening.

A low level radioactive wind could reach Tokyo in 10 hours, Reuters is quoting the French embassy in the Japanese capital as saying.

The Japanese Govt has been severely underplaying the risks and I see a lot of people in Japan writing to say they are very frustrated with misinformation and cover up
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cbphoto
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:58 am

Quoting wolbo (Reply 12):
The strongest for Japan but not worldwide. The catastrophic 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake was 9.1.

That is correct, I should have phrased it better! Thanks for pointing that out!
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DocLightning
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:53 am

Not sure if this was mentioned, but there was a third explosion. After this one, they evacuated all but 50 staff of the 800 at the plant. Said levels went up to a level that could "affect human health" and advised all people within 30 km to stay indoors with windows closed.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapc...isaster/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

This, folks, is not good at all. The severity of this reactor accident just went up from INES level 4 to INES level 5. Three Mile Island was a level 5. The real estate around that plant is gonna get real cheap...
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HT
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:23 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Said levels went up to a level that could "affect human health" and advised all people within 30 km to stay indoors with windows closed.

Local media is reporting main radiation to be Neutron Radiation wikipedia.

Hearing this and being a tad older, I got reminded of the infamous Neutron bomb of the 1980's and its working mode dubbed as "Kills the man, leaves the house intact". This is due to its energy rich radiation but only (relative) limited heat and blast. Also radiation is fairly shortlived (as long as the bomb would not have been enhanced by, say, cobalt) enabling crossing of a territory nuked relatively shortly after.
I am living in a area that was prime target for such a weapon in the 80´s ...

Normal layers of concrete found in housing does not block neutron radiation to any sufficient level.
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
na
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:34 am

Japanese crisis management is being heavily critized now, and rightfully so. Japan´s Premier went into the Tepco office and shouted at the managers. Imho he should send the management to Fukushima in person instead of having them sitting in Tokyo.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Not sure if this was mentioned, but there was a third explosion. After this one, they evacuated all but 50 staff of the 800 at the plant.

And what can 50 do there? I seriously doubt that this company is really able to fight the crisis. As tough and cruel as it sounds, but better a a hundred Tepco staff dies closing their own poison kitchen than having millions under life-threatening conditions.
 
D L X
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:08 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
This, folks, is not good at all. The severity of this reactor accident just went up from INES level 4 to INES level 5. Three Mile Island was a level 5. The real estate around that plant is gonna get real cheap...

Don't exaggerage the severity. Three Mile Island is known as this uber-disaster in the United States, but you know what? We still get electricity from Three Mile Island today, and there is still plenty of activity around the site.

This is going to be an ultradisaster to the company that runs the plant, because it is going to lose the plant. But I expect that a year from now, the only thing you will remember about March 11 is that a 9.0 earthquake and a 30 foot tsunami destroyed Sendai. Not a Chernobyl.


By the way, does anyone else get the impression that the media is rooting for a Chernobyl style explosion?
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:34 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
By the way, does anyone else get the impression that the media is rooting for a Chernobyl style explosion?

Not really, it's just that this is such a rare type of event, and ears are going to perk up when words like meltdown are used. I'd gather most people don't understand the differences between this and Chernobyl, so the question keeps getting asked of guest after guest on the news programs. I just heard it asked again on the radio a few minutes ago, in a quite unemotional way.

But then, I'm getting most of my news on this from NPR on the radio, the BBC, NY Times and the Guardian online, while using YouTube for video reports, eschewing most of the major network and cable news broadcasts to filter out the sensationalist noise. The live blog on the BBC website is quite calm and measured for their Japan coverage.
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HT
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:36 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
By the way, does anyone else get the impression that the media is rooting for a Chernobyl style explosion?

I hardly am following media coverage here in Germany (at least not on TV); I found A.net to be a much better and better balanced source of information in this crisis (and some other incidents before).

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
This is going to be an ultradisaster to the company that runs the plant, because it is going to lose the plant.

I would not be surprised that in the end the company likely will survive by either having proper insurance cover in place or the Japanese Government will cover.
Some serious apologies can be expected, which in the Japanese culture is a very serious act.

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
But I expect that a year from now, the only thing you will remember about March 11 is that a 9.0 earthquake and a 30 foot tsunami destroyed Sendai. Not a Chernobyl.

  
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gocaps16
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:47 pm

Once again, more shaking occurring in the area...a bit stronger then previous aftershocks during the last few days.

Update: 6.0 earthquake near Shizouka Pref. near Mt. Fuji. (Source: JNN)

[Edited 2011-03-15 06:59:10]
 
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fxramper
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:53 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Not sure if this was mentioned, but there was a third explosion.

Also, since first reported, the earthquake has also been upgraded to a 9.0 on the Richter scale.
 
ALTF4
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:54 pm

Quoting SMOLT (Reply 2):
SMOLT From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:

Well, I guess you deleted your account.

Best of luck in the days and months ahead.
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4holer
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:58 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 23):
Well, I guess you deleted your account.

Not really, we all are sporting that bit of misinfo...
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fxramper
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:07 pm

NYSE is down over 250 pts from nuclear fears in Japan.

Quoting 4holer (Reply 24):
Not really, we all are sporting that bit of misinfo...

The quake rocked the Anet servers.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:08 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 22):

Also, since first reported, the earthquake has also been upgraded to a 9.0 on the Richter scale.

Time to upgrade the thread titles.

It was definately a serious quake, and the resulting Tsunami made it much much worse.

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
By the way, does anyone else get the impression that the media is rooting for a Chernobyl style explosion?

I doubt they are rooting for it, but disaster's get a long run in the Media because the public is so attached to them. Everyone is running to the websites and tv shows for pictures, video's and updates on the situation.

A lot still would have to go wrong to have a Chernoby issue, but A whole lot already went wrong with the Earthquake and Tsunami destroying so much of the equipment built to provide containment and safety with the Nuclear plant. Add to that the fact that the area is sitll in devistation mode with folks evacuated, and it makes it that much harder to get the reactors under control. It appears like the on site crews are making headway, but they are overcoming huge obstacles along the way.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:27 pm

Something not getting a lot of airplay or column inches in the newspapers is that it seems resources are being diverted from providing aid to the survivors as the first priority to planning for what to do if there's a serious radiation release from the nuclear reactors. This is being mentioned here and there in other reports, I couldn't find any definitive analysis or report on this in a dedicated article about it. Has anyone heard similar?

If this is true, I fear for those who survived the quake and tsunami, and are struggling to just get by in the aftermath. I wonder if there are other underreported stories out there like this.

BTW, the US 7th Fleet has a flickr page containing images of their work in Japan, which includes some photos of debris fields they've found floating in the Pacific.

This is one of their photostreams for those interested:

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D L X
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:34 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 26):
I doubt they are rooting for it, but disaster's get a long run in the Media because the public is so attached to them.

I'm really not sure. I've seen CNN doing media malpractice lately. In the last two days, I've seen anchors (including Don Lemon) shouting down and cutting off real live nuclear power experts when they suggest that this event is not the public catastrophe that Chernobyl was by introducing real facts and hard science into the discussion. The FERC manager they invited on the air said that criticism of nuclear power near fault zones is misplaced because after all, the three Japan reactors in danger all survived a NINE-POINT-OH earthquake but was done in by the 30 foot tsunami, while no American nuke plants are in tsunami zones. The anchor cut him off with her own expertise: "well, none of us really know anything about any of this, do we? It's probably the case that the reactor failed during the earthquake." When he tried to tell her she was wrong, she cut him off again. It didn't fit the storyline she wanted to tell: that nuclear power is bad, and we're all gonna die.

That's insulting to the thousands of people who actually DID die in this disaster.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:46 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
It didn't fit the storyline she wanted to tell: that nuclear power is bad, and we're all gonna die.

That's insulting to the thousands of people who actually DID die in this disaster.

Yeah, but you are painiting folks with a personal bias and blatent ignorance as the whole media rooting for a disaster. The people in the media have a job, and their job is to report. They are obviously going to be more excited about a disaster in a professional manner, however the media does not get excited to see death and carnage in general.

your above example, if it went as you said, only shows a anchor person that is working their way out of the media by interjecting their personal opions into a story that shouldn't have them.
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ALTF4
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:51 pm

Quoting 4holer (Reply 24):
Not really, we all are sporting that bit of misinfo

Strange. It only was on him and I was puzzled over your response. Came back to inquire further, and now I see it on everybody.
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D L X
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:22 pm

okay, if this is true, then I take back my comments.

Quote:

Earlier, Japanese officials told the IAEA that a fuel storage pond had caught fire — an area where used nuclear fuel is kept cool — and that radioactivity was "being released directly into the atmosphere."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42084187/ns/world_news-asiapacific/

Not sure how water catches fire, but radioactivity being released directly into the atmosphere could be a big deal.

I say "could" because some radioactive elements have a much shorter half-life than others. Cesium and Iodine in the air is bad. Radioactive nitrogen isn't so bad if you're not standing right on top of it. Nitrogen has a half-life of seconds as opposed to days or years. That's why I wish the media would do a better job of reporting the important facts, and stop cutting off the experts who can actually educate the public. The media seems hellbent on making sure the public is never properly informed.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:30 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
Not sure how water catches fire, but radioactivity being released directly into the atmosphere could be a big deal.

The report I read said an explosion followed by a fire. My guess is that the pressure built up from the boiling water, not being cooled, and caused a pressure explosion/burst that then started a subsequent fire elsehwere. the explosion may have exposed the superheated steam from the pond to the atmosphere. However, I would like some more details.
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Airport
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:36 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
I'm really not sure. I've seen CNN doing media malpractice lately. In the last two days, I've seen anchors (including Don Lemon) shouting down and cutting off real live nuclear power experts when they suggest that this event is not the public catastrophe that Chernobyl was by introducing real facts and hard science into the discussion. The FERC manager they invited on the air said that criticism of nuclear power near fault zones is misplaced because after all, the three Japan reactors in danger all survived a NINE-POINT-OH earthquake but was done in by the 30 foot tsunami, while no American nuke plants are in tsunami zones. The anchor cut him off with her own expertise: "well, none of us really know anything about any of this, do we? It's probably the case that the reactor failed during the earthquake." When he tried to tell her she was wrong, she cut him off again. It didn't fit the storyline she wanted to tell: that nuclear power is bad, and we're all gonna die.

I know exactly what you're talking about, and for me it really stems from them reporting things blown way out of proportion. Anderson Cooper reporting that this could "likely be Chernobyl times three", and anchors reporting of those 13 US Navy crew who got exposed to radiation as if the amount of radiation they recieved was deadly -- except for the tiny fact that it was equivalent to the radiation recieved from an X-Ray.

But I don't just pin it on CNN, I've seen it on MSNBC, FOX, and even BBC and Al-Jazeera. I don't think it's anti-nuclear media, but rather sensationalistic reporting when the amount of news has slowed down to keep people watching.

That said, I don't take any of what's happening lightly. I just feel there's been a lot of blowing things out of proportion, giving the appearance as if they want things to get worse so that people will tune in and watch it.

Cheers,
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Dreadnought
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:10 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
I'm really not sure. I've seen CNN doing media malpractice lately. In the last two days, I've seen anchors (including Don Lemon) shouting down and cutting off real live nuclear power experts when they suggest that this event is not the public catastrophe that Chernobyl was by introducing real facts and hard science into the discussion. The FERC manager they invited on the air said that criticism of nuclear power near fault zones is misplaced because after all, the three Japan reactors in danger all survived a NINE-POINT-OH earthquake but was done in by the 30 foot tsunami, while no American nuke plants are in tsunami zones. The anchor cut him off with her own expertise: "well, none of us really know anything about any of this, do we? It's probably the case that the reactor failed during the earthquake." When he tried to tell her she was wrong, she cut him off again. It didn't fit the storyline she wanted to tell: that nuclear power is bad, and we're all gonna die.

I've stayed out of this debate so far as I waited for more info, but I'm seeing the same thing. The envirotards are hell-bent on making this their watershed event.

Three Mile Island was a much publicized non-event, blown out of proportion by Jane Fonda's China Syndrome movie. Nobody was hurt.

Chernobyl was a major disaster, but caused by an absurd set of circumstances combined with a Soviet reactor design without any containment dome. The applicability to western designs was minimal.

But both of these events was still enough to put Nuclear power on hold for the past 20+ years. Now they have an accident to point to where the reactors were modern western designs. Already Switzerland has halted all plans to build new nuke plants because of this event. But how likely is a reactor in Switzerland to be hit by a 9.0 earthquake AND a 30 foot tsunami? How likely is that anywhere in the world?

The lessons to be learned mainly centers around placement. You wouldn't put a reactor next door to Mt Vesuvius, because you know that one day it's going to go off. Japan is no strangers to either Earthquakes and Tsunamis, so why the hell did they build this thing right up on an unprotected deep shoreline. You can build a plant to withstand a 9.0 quake, but a quake AND tsunami? Considering that such have happened in Japanese recorded history, they should have put it inland. If a nuclear plant has an expected lifespan of 50-70 years, you can't ignore an event that might come by once in 200 years - that equals a 25-30% chance of an accident.
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Mir
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:27 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
Now they have an accident to point to where the reactors were modern western designs.

To be fair, while these reactors are western, I wouldn't call them modern. There are newer designs out there that are able to cool themselves sufficiently by convection alone, which would get rid of the main problem in this case.

-Mir
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HT
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:47 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
so why the hell did they build this thing right up on an unprotected deep shoreline.

&

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
Considering that such have happened in Japanese recorded history, they should have put it inland

Q: What do you need to run a nuclear power plant, that is not in the middle of a big city ?
A: Water to cool down the generated steam after it has passed you last turbine to condensate it. This is as long as you are not using excess thermal energy to heat housing estates year round.

Now look at a map of Japan.
Find a place that is sufficiently level, fairly close to the consumers of the electric energy you are producing (sending big currants through long lines make for a considerable loss of energy) AND that has a major river with enough cooling water year-round in it. And the water temperature in summer may not exceed 22 or 24 °C (I do not have the exact figure at hand). Plus, even in summer you will not be allowed to heat the river downstream by more than so-and-so few degrees.
Difficult task w/o sufficient rivers hence Nuclear Power Plants being placed onto the seashore using ocean water for cooling (via a thermal exchanger).

Just explaining things, not saying that it is a good idea ultimately ...
_________________
A loss of 4.6 GW of electrical power at the 6 Fukushima units is quite considerable, which is mirrored by the rolling power outages in Kanto region.
This leads me to the question:
How well is the power grid designed in Japan ?
Is there insufficient production capacity installed to cover for that loss of Fukushima's electrical power ?
Or is it, that the remaining power stations are in the wrong locations making distribution of electrical power the problem ?
Are other power plants also down due to the earthquake / tsunami ? I am aware of Onagawa-3 with its 0.825 GW capacity.

I came across the following article :http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/japan-power-grid/
but it does not contain information about spare capacity installed.

Without sufficient spare capacity there might be problems with insufficient power for quite a longer time to come, as (replacement-) power stations do not come off the shelf within days or weeks...
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:04 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
I'm really not sure. I've seen CNN doing media malpractice lately. In the last two days, I've seen anchors (including Don Lemon) shouting down and cutting off real live nuclear power experts when they suggest that this event is not the public catastrophe that Chernobyl was by introducing real facts and hard science into the discussion. The FERC manager they invited on the air said that criticism of nuclear power near fault zones is misplaced because after all, the three Japan reactors in danger all survived a NINE-POINT-OH earthquake but was done in by the 30 foot tsunami, while no American nuke plants are in tsunami zones. The anchor cut him off with her own expertise: "well, none of us really know anything about any of this, do we? It's probably the case that the reactor failed during the earthquake." When he tried to tell her she was wrong, she cut him off again. It didn't fit the storyline she wanted to tell: that nuclear power is bad, and we're all gonna die.

I've stayed out of this debate so far as I waited for more info, but I'm seeing the same thing. The envirotards are hell-bent on making this their watershed event.

The same happens here and having several state elections next week´s sunday doesn´t help either (I´m sure that many of the Green / environmentalist wing are secretly happy about the disaster and hope that the reaction will catapult them to success during these elections).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:18 pm

Operation Tomodachi, how touching..."tomodachi" is "friend" in Japanese.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
Considering that such have happened in Japanese recorded history, they should have put it inland.

Come on man, look at a map.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
aloges
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:45 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
If a nuclear plant has an expected lifespan of 50-70 years, you can't ignore an event that might come by once in 200 years - that equals a 25-30% chance of an accident.

I'd like to expand on this, briefly, if I may.

I've read a few songs of praise for the reactor because it remained somewhat structurally intact after a quake that was much stronger than anything it had been designed for, plus a tsunami. The logic is that if something is so over-engineered that it'll only leak "a little radiation"* under such circumstances, it cannot be unsafe.

That's missing the point, or at least my point, made against nuclear power plants. If one is operated in an area where conceivable, if locally unprecedented, natural disasters can cause a series of serious accidents and substantial leaks, it is too unsafe to operate.

* obligatory George Carlin quote  

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 38):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
Considering that such have happened in Japanese recorded history, they should have put it inland.

Come on man, look at a map.

That's getting there. If a plant can be severely damaged by a conceivable act of god, man-made accident or attack, it isn't safe where and how it was built. More modern reactors might have survived without active cooling, hence the question is why are so many who can't still allowed to operate?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Mir
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:50 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 39):
More modern reactors might have survived without active cooling, hence the question is why are so many who can't still allowed to operate?

Money, pure and simple. Reactors are expensive things, and redesigning one to be more resistant to a LOCA might well be close to the cost of a brand new reactor.

It's the same reason why safety concerns in aviation tend to get deferred until something bad happens - the reforms would be in place immediately if they didn't cost anything. But like aviation, one accident, bad though it may be, doesn't warrant getting rid of the entire system.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:30 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 39):
If one is operated in an area where conceivable, if locally unprecedented, natural disasters can cause a series of serious accidents and substantial leaks, it is too unsafe to operate.

Well, the Japanese don´t have much choice. The country is notoriously low on local energy sources (they have a little bit of coal and maybe some hydroelectric plants in the mountains, but these are threatened by earthquakes as well and maybe some geothermal energy), but else they´ll have to import all energy sources and raw materials.
And practically the whole country is being threatened by earthquakes.

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
Quoting aloges (Reply 39):
More modern reactors might have survived without active cooling, hence the question is why are so many who can't still allowed to operate?

Money, pure and simple. Reactors are expensive things, and redesigning one to be more resistant to a LOCA might well be close to the cost of a brand new reactor.

It's the same reason why safety concerns in aviation tend to get deferred until something bad happens - the reforms would be in place immediately if they didn't cost anything. But like aviation, one accident, bad though it may be, doesn't warrant getting rid of the entire system.

-Mir

Just look at Germany. All our reactors are 2nd generation, from the 1970s and early 1980s. The French and many other countries are now at generation 3+ with advanced safety features.
For us I think it was mostly, the often violent, anti-nuclear power movement, with some parts of it having the explicite goal to make nuclear energy so expensive due to security issues that it won´t be worthwhile (e.g. that every transport of nuclear waste has to be accompanied by 10.000 riot police to remove blockades).
The result was that, at a time when normally the power companies would have looked at replacement designs for the older plants(I would say, given the long time to build one, it must have been in the 1990s), there was a political ban on building new nuclear powerplants
Also at the same time all government funded nuclear power research was stopped, the only approved research was about how to scrap and dismantle nuclear powerplants safely.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
steeler83
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:49 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
By the way, does anyone else get the impression that the media is rooting for a Chernobyl style explosion?

Eh, maybe to some degree. You know how the media loves a huge story. In some cases, especially after the way some folks handled 9-11. They care more about the stories than they do about the humanity of all the hype...

Quoting 4holer (Reply 24):
Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 23):
Well, I guess you deleted your account.

Not really, we all are sporting that bit of misinfo...

I know!

The numeric part of my username is a LIE!!!

Why wasn't I informed that I was around in 1969?!!
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:16 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 41):

Well, the Japanese don´t have much choice. The country is notoriously low on local energy sources (they have a little bit of coal and maybe some hydroelectric plants in the mountains, but these are threatened by earthquakes as well and maybe some geothermal energy), but else they´ll have to import all energy sources and raw materials.
And practically the whole country is being threatened by earthquakes.

I'm surprised they haven't been leading the march toward fusion.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Mir
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:48 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 41):
Just look at Germany. All our reactors are 2nd generation, from the 1970s and early 1980s. The French and many other countries are now at generation 3+ with advanced safety features.
For us I think it was mostly, the often violent, anti-nuclear power movement, with some parts of it having the explicite goal to make nuclear energy so expensive due to security issues that it won´t be worthwhile

There's also the people who don't want any reactors to be replaced with newer, safer models because they don't want any new reactors. It really does boggle the mind.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
jessbp
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:05 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):
I'm surprised they haven't been leading the march toward fusion.

Actually doc, I believe the japanese and the French are working together on the worlds first fusion reactor in France. Iirc the project was delayed for some time of arguments on where to build it, Japan or France.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:42 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):
I'm surprised they haven't been leading the march toward fusion.

AFAIK, the Japanese are part of the ITER consortium and are heavily involved in fusion research. For a while Japan was considered to be the location for the ITER fusion reactor, but it was then ddecided to build it in southern France.
The ITER machine is considered to be the last step before commercial application of fusion. It is actually designed to provide a net output of energy, but it will be mostly used to tweak the process for economics and to test reaction chamber lining materials. By itself the machine is (as a prototype) so expensive that no nation by itself could afford it, hence the international consortium building it (just like a large particle accellerator), but later fusion reactors for commercial use will be much cheaper. Controlled fusion reactions have been runh for minutes at a time in smaller research machines, but the much larger ITER has a much better volume to surface ratio, so that the plasma won´t lose heat that fast.
BTW, the German anti-nuclear movement is also against fusion research, claiming that it is waste of money, which should be better spent in wind and solar energy research.


Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ltbewr
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:47 am

The sad part is that no one really trusts the government in these severe situations. No government want's to induce mass panic with it's potential horrible consequences. Most people when they hear of radiation risks think of cancer in a few years or dying painfully and in the case of Japan with their real history ot 2 nuke bombs used on them, the horrors of nuclear weapons. People are sincerely panicked, many cant' get away and if could, where can you go. 100's of square miles of Japan are ruined for any habitation for generations in and around the troubled powered plants. Food, industrial products may be contaminated so Japan may have to import food. The economic problems are just beginning, with cars, car and electronic parts made there suspended due to the losses along the NE coast of the main island and power problems there and the rest of the country, A country deeply in massive debt.
 
baroque
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:15 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 46):
BTW, the German anti-nuclear movement is also against fusion research, claiming that it is waste of money, which should be better spent in wind and solar energy research.

Well they might be about half right, half should be spent on wind and solar energy research and half on improving fission as a system - fission actually yields a more or less practical system for generating electricity which I seriously doubt fusion ever will.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
The envirotards are hell-bent on making this their watershed event.

Wonder if the envirotards or the "drill baby drillotards" would be the more dumb - whatever either of them might be? Why use relatively meaningless but insulting language if you intend to make a reasoned argument? Hardly following D L X's example????
 
HT
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RE: Mag 8.9 Earthquake In Japan, Pt. 2

Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:46 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 48):
half on improving fission as a system - fission actually yields a more or less practical system for generating electricity

Problem is, that resources of Uranium are limited.

I found the following figures that appear to be dating from 2006, but still these should be indicative:
Currently all nuclear power plants consume 67,000 tons of Uranium while only 42,000 tons are produced by mines.
The gap currently is filled by converting former nuclear warheads (dating back from pre-1980) into "fuel" for nuclear power plants. This source will be consumed up by ca. 2015.

Only mines in Canada are having a content of 1 % Uranium in their raw material, most have a content of 0.1 % or less.
Two thirds of all mines worldwide have a content of less than 0.06 %.

--> Large amounts of rock need to be dig up and extracted in order to generate the "fuel" for nuclear power plants. And as good & easy sources are deminishing, the cost per ton will go up, due to extra work in the extraction process needed.
There will be a time where nuclear fission power plants just no longer will be a economically viable, when factoring all associated costs.

-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !

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