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WarRI1
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Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:38 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...hart-shows-low-tax-burden-for-rich


Once again, tax rates for the wealthy seem to be affecting the deficits and of course making the wealthy more wealthy. Is it by design? I think so.
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DocLightning
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:48 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):

Once again, tax rates for the wealthy seem to be affecting the deficits and of course making the wealthy more wealthy. Is it by design? I think so.

And the GOP, funded by those wealthy people, have fooled the rest of the populace into thinking that taxing them will somehow alter their spending patterns.

Fact is that if you are making $300m a year, you spend as much as you like and increasing taxes isn't going to change your spending.

So all that money, rather than going into the economy, goes into their accounts. It basically vanishes from the economy forever.

And the GOP has half of Americans thinking that it's OK not to tax these people.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:56 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
So all that money, rather than going into the economy, goes into their accounts. It basically vanishes from the economy forever.

It is not necessarely disappearing (i doubt that you´ll have any millionaire acting like Scrooge McDuck), but it will not flow for most part into the AMERICAN economy. It will most likely be invested overseas, wherever there is a good yield for it.Also, many really rich are quite international, with houses and residencies all over the world. It is likely to be spend in other places.

Jan
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PPVRA
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:59 pm

Meanwhile, states like California have high taxes and large deficits. Go figure! The problem really is out of control spending.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
So all that money, rather than going into the economy, goes into their accounts. It basically vanishes from the economy forever.

The money doesn't just sit there, it is loaned out by banks. And even if they stuff it in their mattresses, the money is then out of the market, which reduces money supply, and it follows by supply and demand that everybody else's money will go up in value accordingly.
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WarRI1
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:07 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
And the GOP, funded by those wealthy people, have fooled the rest of the populace into thinking that taxing them will somehow alter their spending patterns.

I certainly agree, snake oil is what it was called in years of old, now commonally called bullshit.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 2):
It is not necessarely disappearing (i doubt that you´ll have any millionaire acting like Scrooge McDuck), but it will not flow for most part into the AMERICAN economy. It will most likely be invested overseas, wherever there is a good yield for it.Also, many really rich are quite international, with houses and residencies all over the world. It is likely to be spend in other places.

They have no loyalty, as you say, it is me, me. They do consider themselves Internationals, above the fray.
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WarRI1
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:12 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
Meanwhile, states like California have high taxes and large deficits. Go figure! The problem really is out of control spending.

A combination of the two, but they are still paying less to the government which enrichs them.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
The money doesn't just sit there, it is loaned out by banks. And even if they stuff it in their mattresses, the money is then out of the market, which reduces money supply, and it follows by supply and demand that everybody else's money will go up in value accordingly

Of course it does not, it makes more money for them and the financial institutions.
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:22 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
Meanwhile, states like California have high taxes and large deficits. Go figure! The problem really is out of control spending.

You do realize that California provides more revenue to the nation and federal government than it receives back? California subsidizes the nation, it's economy is just that large. I am sure it wishes the nation would be more self sufficient.

Tugg
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:08 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
Once again, tax rates for the wealthy seem to be affecting the deficits and of course making the wealthy more wealthy. Is it by design? I think so.

Non sequiturs and class warfare, as usual from WarRI1.

I'd like to see you try and address a fiscal issue without framing it as an "us" versus "them" argument. The people who build wealth do so because the spend less than they earn, which hardly becomes easier as you make more income. Tax policy does not make anyone more wealthy.

It does not follow that increasing tax rates would close the budget deficit in the long run. That deficit is only going to get worse as more Baby Boomers retire and begin drawing welfare benefits. Historical federal income receipts as a percentage of GDP do not show a correlation to the top income tax rate. Given how absolutely important it is to keep economic growth high and blunt the effect of a crumbling dependency ratio, why would we go after the individuals who drive job growth when we need them most? Perhaps because it serves an irrational emotional appeal?



And yet, as tax revenue as a percentage of GDP has remained relatively constant, our desire to spend has grown significantly. If we are maxed out on the revenue we can effectively collect and we still have a deficit, how can we conclude that anything but spending is the problem?



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
So all that money, rather than going into the economy, goes into their accounts. It basically vanishes from the economy forever.

No one but a rube hoards cash or near-cash investments. Individuals with a net worth over $1 million predominately hold their wealth in common stock, personal retirement accounts, real estate, or their own business. Their wealth is literally in the economy.
 
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:18 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
Of course it does not, it makes more money for them and the financial institutions.

Don't forget it also makes money to that small business owner who was able to secure a loan to lease a store, buy equipment, supplies, hire employees and probably finance its operations for quite a while until it turned a profit, all of this on the strength of the entrepreneur's ideas, but on some rich guy's dime. And this rich guy is putting his money on the line - he could lose it all.

Not sure how any of this make anyone rich "deserve" a higher tax rate.

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
You do realize that California provides more revenue to the nation and federal government than it receives back? California subsidizes the nation, it's economy is just that large. I am sure it wishes the nation would be more self sufficient.


Not related to the subject at hand.
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:40 am

Here we go again. Lets bash those in society that have managed to earn a few dollars for themselves.

Frankly I don't know a single person that I call "wealthy" that simply sits on their money. They do things like invest, create business, develop property, etc, all things that create employment or income for others including indirect taxes for governments.

Additionally virtually all are charitable with their monies funding host of causes from local schools to global health initiatives.

So how about instead we better recognize these people and be thankful for the risks they take and contributions they make to a nation instead of trying to blame the countries problems on a class of entrepreneurs.
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WarRI1
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:50 am

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 7):
Non sequiturs and class warfare, as usual from WarRI1.

I did not write the article, someone thought it was important to put on the Yahoo site.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 7):
I'd like to see you try and address a fiscal issue without framing it as an "us" versus "them" argument. The people who build wealth do so because the spend less than they earn, which hardly becomes easier as you make more income. Tax policy does not make anyone more wealthy.

If you do not think it is us versus them, well the Kool Ade is working as usual. Show me the money, that is what it is all
about. It becomes harder as you make more? Ask the CEO of UPS, and many more. My goodness. Tax Policy does not help the wealthy to attain more, Wow! I wonder what point the link was making about taxes. How come it is not working the other way?

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 7):
It does not follow that increasing tax rates would close the budget deficit in the long run

No one said it would close any deficits, but it would not hurt. A person makes a million, and pays one half of one percent less in taxes, than a person who makes 50K. Do the math. We do know a million a year does not go far these days.
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:57 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Frankly I don't know a single person that I call "wealthy" that simply sits on their money. They do things like invest, create business, develop property, etc, all things that create employment or income for others including indirect taxes for governments

Noble people all. All done for their fellow citizens. I have changed my mind, let us give them another tax break so they can do more. Things are so good and fair, now, why not? Special people deserve special tax treatment. Wait, they already get that. I think the link was inferring that.
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sccutler
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:17 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
Tax Policy does not help the wealthy to attain more, Wow! I wonder what point the link was making about taxes. How come it is not working the other way?

I wish to God I could understand what you're saying here - I might be able to understand it.

---

For me, the simple reality is that money in the hands of productive enterprise will usually do more, better and to the true benefit of more people, by accident, than all the money the government can confiscate.

Hell, I think I know a better way, anyway: use tax policy to implement a very simple doctrine:

From each, according to his ability, to each, according to his need.

To quote Yuri Zhivago, M.D., "'It is more just."
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:26 am

Quoting sccutler (Reply 12):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):Tax Policy does not help the wealthy to attain more, Wow! I wonder what point the link was making about taxes. How come it is not working the other way?



I wish to God I could understand what you're saying here - I might be able to understand it.
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 7):
Tax policy does not make anyone more wealthy.

See above. The link was about lower tax rates for the wealthy and deficit reduction. I posed the question, how come it doe not work for the less wealthy most of the time, you know, lower rates. If it did, there would be rate parity.That Kool Ade can be strong. Try reading the link, that may help.
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sccutler
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:30 am

Higher taxes do not yield higher revenues, long term. So, once we're concluded it's really about punishing the successful, we can at least be honest with ourselves.


From each, according to his ability, to each, according to his need.
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:37 am

Quoting sccutler (Reply 14):
Higher taxes do not yield higher revenues, long term. So, once we're concluded it's really about punishing the successful, we can at least be honest with ourselves.


From each, according to his ability, to each, according to his need.

My friend, you could not be more wrong, it is about paying ones fair share. I can see you have a problem with that concept. You are not alone, and that is sad in itself. I hate to break it to you, you are not talking to someone who is not successful financially, or any other way. I am not someone to put in the bag with the so called takers, you folks love to talk about.I have paid and still pay my share, even in retirement, on every dime of income. So does my wife.
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:45 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):
Not related to the subject at hand.

And neither was your comment any more relevant. If it were relevant then mine would be as well, for if California actually received the appropriate level of federal dollars based on what it contributes it would not have to pay for things that the federal government should be paying for and therefore it's budget problems would not be as severe.

However as you say California's problem's are not relevant to the topic at hand which makes me wonder why you even brought it up.  

Tugg
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:00 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
It becomes harder as you make more? Ask the CEO of UPS, and many more. My goodness.

Every dollar you earn is like a personal employee. As the CEO of UPS if it would be easier to manage a business of 40,000 employees or 400,000 (as UPS does). People in high income careers are often pressured to live a high consumption lifestyle. So just because someone makes more, it does not mean they have the luxury of banking it all.

The deeper you live below your means, the more disciple it takes.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
No one said it would close any deficits, but it would not hurt.

In the long run, yes, it very well could.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
I posed the question, how come it doe not work for the less wealthy most of the time, you know, lower rates.

Because the less wealthy do not try to build wealth. Only ~25% of Americans own any basic investments outside of their home and employer-provided retirement plan. The majority of Americans live at the limit of their income and have no basis to save or invest. Even households well below the median income practice wasteful consumption that could instead be used to invest, if they had that inclination.

Example: 30% of the people earning between $25,000-35,000 in annual income spend approximately $1,000 per year in cigarettes. Leaving the health consequences aside, the money spent on all those cigarettes could grow to approximately $125,000 over 40 years - in inflation adjusted dollars. That's already double the average household net worth in the United States.
 
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:04 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 16):
And neither was your comment any more relevant. If it were relevant then mine would be as well, for if California actually received the appropriate level of federal dollars based on what it contributes it would not have to pay for things that the federal government should be paying for and therefore it's budget problems would not be as severe.

However as you say California's problem's are not relevant to the topic at hand which makes me wonder why you even brought it up.

The federal government allocates its resources based on things like the census, not on how much each state contributes. This is what it deemed "appropriate level" and it is based on California-style logic. If California has a problem with how Federal funds are allocated, lobby to change the law, don't ignore it and drive itself into a massive financial hole and then complain about it.

California's budget problems are its own fault, not the Federal government's nor of other states. It - not anyone else - chose to overspend.
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:06 am

Quoting sccutler (Reply 14):
From each, according to his ability, to each, according to his need.

Each according to his ability? I would have to presume a wealthy person is more able to pay more taxes than a lower caste person, so why do they not? Those words in relation to tax rates are pure hokum. bull dinky, whatever. I will not even go into the other words about needs.
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sccutler
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:18 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 15):
My friend, you could not be more wrong, it is about paying ones fair share. I can see you have a problem with that concept. You are not alone, and that is sad in itself. I hate to break it to you, you are not talking to someone who is not successful financially, or any other way. I am not someone to put in the bag with the so called takers, you folks love to talk about.I have paid and still pay my share, even in retirement, on every dime of income. So does my wife.

See, here's the thing. I could never presume to say any foul thing about you at all; I'll presume you've led a full and productive life, and have sensed (without knowing) you did so in a skilled and valuable craft. But when you accept the principle that "...the rich don't pay enough...," granting the government bureaucrat class (who operate without meaningful oversight, and without the possibility of personal failure) the right to decide who is, and who is not, "rich," pretty soon, we'll run out of rich people to tax, we'll all be poor, and we'll all be hungry. It's inevitable.

The alpha and omega of the debate, for me is this: Almost nothing done by government, is done well.

What government is best at, and best-situated to do, is regulation - so they should do that, and only that, together with that limited list of things which only government can do (border defense, a prime exemplar), and otherwise, stay the hell out of the way.

So demand that your government protect you from thieves, whether they be holding a knife on you at the corner bus stop, or wielding a convoluted tax-sheltered Ponzi scheme from a penthouse in Manhattan.

But spare yourself from the self-defeating illusion that, if you just take a little more away from someone who has more, it will "level the playing field" or "give someone else a slice of the pie." Just doesn't work.

Never has.
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ltbewr
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:26 am

To me what needs to be happening is to have a tax policy that encourages good investments and penalizes bad as to the whole of society as well as discourages excessive compensation.

For examples: Perhaps a higher rate of short-term Capital Gains taxes when they are well above inflation to discourage 'flipping' of real property, stocks and other investments. Cap deductions for high income persons/families for personal exemptions, mortgage interests and certain local taxes as well on untaxed income instead of the Alternative Minimum Tax to keep the intended reason for such deductions to encourage the middle class to own their own homes and have investments. Tighten up on small to medium business expenses to discourage abuse and recover tax revenues. Discourage excessive placing of monies in 'tax dodging' places like Switzerland or the Cayman Islands by USA citizens. Find ways to use make sure is proper funding and regulation to make sure all pay their fair share of taxes.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:26 am

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 17):
People in high income careers are often pressured to live a high consumption lifestyle. So just because someone makes more, it does not mean they have the luxury of banking it all.
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 17):
Because the less wealthy do not try to build wealth. Only ~25% of Americans own any basic investments outside of their home and employer-provided retirement plan. The majority of Americans live at the limit of their income and have no basis to save or invest. Even households well below the median income practice wasteful consumption that could instead be used to invest, if they had that inclination

When I read your words about the wealthy, and the pressure to live a high consumption lifestyle, and then your words about the less wealthy, I see hypocrisy, Is it any different for the wealthy? They are under pressure to smoke, drink, entertain, join country clubs, send their children to private schools, travel etc. Is that somehow different than a lower paid worker who smokes, drinks, entertains, plays golf on a public course, sends his kids to a public school, goes away for a weekend once in awhile. What is the difference, the wealthy folk are consuming big, the not so wealthy is consuming on a lower level. It seems that is Ok for the big guy, but not for the little guy. It is funny how that works, pressure for the wealthy to live it up, but wasteful, or whatever for the lower paid. HMMMMM. Is it not called living?
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zalemam
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:37 am

This chart says it all!

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WarRI1
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:45 am

Quoting sccutler (Reply 20):
The alpha and omega of the debate, for me is this: Almost nothing done by government, is done well.

I certainly do not disagree with that argument.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 20):
But when you accept the principle that "...the rich don't pay enough...," granting the government bureaucrat class (who operate without meaningful oversight, and without the possibility of personal failure) the right to decide who is, and who is not, "rich," pretty soon, we'll run out of rich people to tax, we'll all be poor, and we'll all be hungry. It's inevitable

I only advocate a fair system, not soak the rich, the writer of the article in the link seems to favor my side of the argument. the wealthy are paying less, is that fair? I wonder, if we have ever in the history of man, run out of rich people tp tax? I think not, nor do I expect it to change. They are always with us, they are survivers. !0% of 50K, 10% of 50 million, that is fairness.
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PPVRA
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:46 am

Quoting zalemam (Reply 23):

Writing off drilling costs a "tax break for oil companies".

You don't know anything at all about taxes, do you, Zaleman? I'd suggest you take some classes before spreading this kind of misinformation again.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:53 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 25):
Quoting zalemam (Reply 23):
Writing off drilling costs a "tax break for oil companies".

You don't know anything at all about taxes, do you, Zaleman? I'd suggest you take some classes before spreading this kind of misinformation again.

I wonder, if you could put up a comparison chart to disprove what he says in his chart. I seem to think he has a point or two.
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PPVRA
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:56 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 26):
I wonder, if you could put up a comparison chart to disprove what he says in his chart. I seem to think he has a point or two.

I will not waste my time with a chart that is either purposely deceitful or put together by someone who has no idea what they are talking about.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:02 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 27):
I will not waste my time with a chart that is either purposely deceitful or put together by someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

The problem is PPVRA (while I completely agree with you), this statement makes your argument look...weak.

Funny how 99.9% of the politicians are rich yet they don't pay any taxes or the very bare minimum. So if we have to tax the rich, I say we start with politicians first.
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sccutler
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:02 am

The problem is, Zaleman's chart presupposes several necessary elements, which are not established predicates:

1. That he referenced programs actually achieve their intended purposes (and most, do not);
2. That the referenced initiatives could not be better handled on a more local basis (ie, by the states, without filtering the money through vast, profoundly inefficient and inherently-political federal bureaucracy);
3. That none of the "tax breaks" do not have collateral benefits, in the form of investments in wealth-creation and (by definition) job-creation.

No single one of the "programs at risk" are proper for federal action. Not a one.

Honestly, I am surprised that whomever created the chart left out "kitten-torturing for the entertainment of the rich."
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WarRI1
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:10 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 27):

I will not waste my time with a chart that is either purposely deceitful or put together by someone who has no idea what they are talking about.


My wife has told me that many times, but I do not believe her. I hope there are others who can enlighten us.
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PPVRA
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:15 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 28):
The problem is PPVRA (while I completely agree with you), this statement makes your argument look...weak.

How so?

All ordinary and necessary business expenses are tax deductible. In the oil field, drilling (a very necessary expense!) has certain unique economic characteristics that require a different set of accounting procedures for it to be appropriately accounted for. This reflects on taxes as well. The only reason this item was even included in the above table is because of how having a separate set of rules makes it stand out, not because there is some kind of political favoritism that made its way into the tax code.
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:19 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 24):
I only advocate a fair system, not soak the rich, the writer of the article in the link seems to favor my side of the argument. the wealthy are paying less, is that fair? I wonder, if we have ever in the history of man, run out of rich people tp tax? I think not, nor do I expect it to change. They are always with us, they are survivers. !0% of 50K, 10% of 50 million, that is fairness.
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 26):
I wonder, if you could put up a comparison chart to disprove what he says in his chart. I seem to think he has a point or two.

The only thing I notice here, based on all this BS is this:

If we were to have a society where, oh, you know...this little thing like 'surival of the fittest' were to exist...we could probably get rid of a bunch of weaklings.

Look at the chart!
"Low income this..." "low income that" "subsidy this" "subsidy that"
give me a farking break

You are a true liberal at heart. There is no mistaking that. No reason to take you seriously at all
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JakeOrion
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:23 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 31):
How so?

By you not providing this a post earlier:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 31):

All ordinary and necessary business expenses are tax deductible. In the oil field, drilling (a very necessary expense!) has certain unique economic characteristics that require a different set of accounting procedures for it to be appropriately accounted for. This reflects on taxes as well. The only reason this item was even included in the above table is because of how having a separate set of rules makes it stand out, not because there is some kind of political favoritism that made its way into the tax code.

When you fail to provide information of why his chart was wrong, it just comes down to another, "You're a dummy! No! You're a dummy!" cycle. Why not just nip it in the butt and be done with it? Also, it shows good character and you are willing to at least have a decorous conversation.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:41 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 33):

No problem in explaining the one I pointed out, and sure maybe I should have gone ahead and explained it anyways. But I will not be going through the entire chart the way I interpreted the comment on reply #26.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Pyrex
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:45 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
Fact is that if you are making $300m a year, you spend as much as you like and increasing taxes isn't going to change your spending.

Fact is, the majority of people making $300m a year are probably Democrats... it is the guys making $250K - $2M that are Republicans. When you have so much money you don't know what to do with it you can afford to piss it away on some meaningless feel-good initiative to get your face in the papers.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
So all that money, rather than going into the economy, goes into their accounts. It basically vanishes from the economy forever.

Sure, if you consider an investment "vanishing". Then again, that probably puts you in the same boat as 99% of all Americans, who go out of their way to spend everything they have and then some. And some people wonder why they have less than the ones at the top 1%...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
And the GOP has half of Americans thinking that it's OK not to tax these people.

Ah, here comes the condescendence, all conservatives are stupid sheet who somehow managed to be persuaded by a cabal of rich Illuminati into acting against their supposed own interest. Where would the world be without those enlightened progressives to save the day?

And people wonder why they are called elitists...

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 2):
Also, many really rich are quite international, with houses and residencies all over the world. It is likely to be spend in other places.

So what? It is their money, they are entitled to spend it whenever and wherever they want to. I mean, don't take me wrong - this whole 19th century concept of nation state was great, gave us some great wars for the history books and all, but in the 21st century, where people can get on a plane and be in the other side of the world in less than 24 hours, or click a button and have Mongolian Yak Butter delivered to their doorstep the next day, it does not pass muster.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
They have no loyalty, as you say, it is me, me. They do consider themselves Internationals, above the fray.

I always find it incredible how many on the left, who keep accusing anyone who does not agree with their ideas as racist buffoons and whose favorite sport is to try to paint conservatives as ignorant, passport-less idiots who never left their flyover state, can be so incredibly xenophobic in what economic matters are concerned.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 15):
My friend, you could not be more wrong, it is about paying ones fair share.

And what is exactly is "one's fair share"? The top 1% already pay 50% or more of all taxes, how much higher should they go? 70%? 90%?

Quoting zalemam (Reply 23):
This chart says it all!

Yes, it definitely says all there needs to be known about you. You are comparing spending programs on the left (i.e., giving people money that is not theirs) to tax incentives on the right (i.e., allowing people to keep money that is theirs). I bet you are also one of those people who believe the role of people is to serve the Government and not the other way around.
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seb146
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:08 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
Is it by design? I think so.

It is interesting that the Reagan tax breaks for the wealth coencide with the deficit increasing.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
states like California have high taxes and large deficits.

And very rich people with a low tax burden.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 7):
Their wealth is literally in the economy.

In China and India and Indonesia and Switzerland and Cayman Islands....

The second graph is interesting to me because, lo and behold, spending goes up when tax income of the rich goes down. It is also interesting to see the spending start to go up in 2000. Even though we have heard it all started in 2008. It did but isn't that when war spending was put on budget?

How about a graph that shows real numbers instead of "per cent of GDP?"

Oh, right.... That graph is in the link posted by OP. Nevermind that graph. It means nothing, I guess....

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Lets bash those in society that have managed to earn a few dollars for themselves.

No. That is not who is being "bashed." Those who are being bashed are the ones granting tax breaks to those who do nothing with their billions. Let the rich be rich, but not if it comes at the expense of the poor, their fellow Americans.
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dxing
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:11 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
The problem really is out of control spending.

BINGO. No need to go any farther. Interesting to note that the country got along just fine without personal income tax for the better part of 126 years until the ratification of the 16th amendment.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
A combination of the two, but they are still paying less to the government which enrichs them.

How does the government enrich them? What government benefit programs are they personally taking advantage of? Food stamps?

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
You do realize that California provides more revenue to the nation and federal government than it receives back? California subsidizes the nation, it's economy is just that large. I am sure it wishes the nation would be more self sufficient.

HIs comment was about the state of the State of California and he was right on the mark. High taxes and yet still a high defict. If you can't control spending, no tax will be enough.

Quoting zalemam (Reply 23):
This chart says it all!

It says nothing as politicians on both sides have said that in just the first panel alone there are enough duplications and orginizational waste in headstart to save that amount of money.


Not a dime more in taxes until spending is addressed.
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Mir
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:27 am

Quoting sccutler (Reply 14):
Higher taxes do not yield higher revenues, long term.

This is not correct: http://rricketts.ba.ttu.edu/Tax%20Rates%20and%20Revenues.htm

Tax increases generally raise revenue, and tax cuts generally lower it, when taken in the long-term. Of course, spending is the key issue here, as in the very-long-term, taxes end up equaling spending, but while spending cuts are necessary, to accompany them with tax cuts (which have a drastic negative effect on revenue in the short-term) isn't helping matters any.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 28):
Funny how 99.9% of the politicians are rich yet they don't pay any taxes or the very bare minimum. So if we have to tax the rich, I say we start with politicians first.

No argument from me on that one.

-Mir
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Aesma
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:29 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 19):
Each according to his ability? I would have to presume a wealthy person is more able to pay more taxes than a lower caste person, so why do they not? Those words in relation to tax rates are pure hokum. bull dinky, whatever. I will not even go into the other words about needs.

Yeah, and of course, is the CEO making millions really 1000 times more able than the bottom worker of his company ?
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Pyrex
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:41 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
Yeah, and of course, is the CEO making millions really 1000 times more able than the bottom worker of his company ?

The people paying his or her salary seem to think so, and in the end of the day that is all that matters. Is Angelina Jolie really 10,000 times more able than the waitress in the coffee shop down the street who is just waiting tables until her acting / modeling / singing career gets into gear?
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ipodguy7
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:32 am

Why should those who work hard to be successful in life be punished and taxed up to almost half of what they make, while those who are less wealthy get tax breaks? IMHO, tax should be a constant rate (i.e. 20% of earnings for all but the very few who are below the poverty line).
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:35 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 37):
HIs comment was about the state of the State of California and he was right on the mark. High taxes and yet still a high defict. If you can't control spending, no tax will be enough.

True enough on that point. Still doesn't make it right that Californians see $1 in services from the feds for every $3 they generate in revenue.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 40):
The people paying his or her salary seem to think so, and in the end of the day that is all that matters
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 40):
Is Angelina Jolie really 10,000 times more able than the waitress in the coffee shop down the street who is just waiting tables until her acting / modeling / singing career gets into gear?

Isn't it at all possible that both scenarios represent something that is wrong? The CEO of Toyota makes around $750K, and this is considered a large salary among Japanese chief executives. The value judgment in their culture is simply one of avoiding ostentation and giving perks and high compensation as discretely as possible to maintain employee loyalties. The same is true of many other Asian countries, with some large Chinese state entities representing a notable exception.

I would argue that the entitlement attitude that pervades welfare queens in the US differs little from that of the executive class and members of boards who think $15 million is sufficient even when the organization finished the year in the red. They "made it into the club", as it were, thus they "deserve" the spoils. The entitlement mentality is symptomatic of American thinking in general - at any income level.
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sccutler
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:51 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 42):

I would argue that the entitlement attitude that pervades welfare queens in the US differs little from that of the executive class and members of boards who think $15 million is sufficient even when the organization finished the year in the red. They "made it into the club", as it were, thus they "deserve" the spoils. The entitlement mentality is symptomatic of American thinking in general - at any income level.

Well-said.

How the various boards of directors worked themselves around to allowing salaries at these stupendous levels is beyond comprehension. Perhaps (one speculates) because most boards are comprised of senior executives of other business concerns who would hope to improve their odds of stratospheric compensation?
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Okie
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:33 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 42):
Still doesn't make it right that Californians see $1 in services from the feds for every $3 they generate in revenue.


I suppose someone in a high tax bracket would say the exact same thing.
Quite frankly, the idea that the one group or another needs to pay more taxes seems to only work as long as you are not in the group that has been arbitrarily determined needs to pay more, overlooking the fact that too much is being spent.

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PPVRA
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:53 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 36):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
states like California have high taxes and large deficits.

And very rich people with a low tax burden.

Which has no bearing whatsoever on your deficits. . . .
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
dxing
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:59 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 42):
True enough on that point. Still doesn't make it right that Californians see $1 in services from the feds for every $3 they generate in revenue.

Okie says it best...

Quoting okie (Reply 44):
I suppose someone in a high tax bracket would say the exact same thing.

Since they face the same problem. They pay in and get little back.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:49 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 22):
When I read your words about the wealthy, and the pressure to live a high consumption lifestyle, and then your words about the less wealthy, I see hypocrisy, Is it any different for the wealthy? They are under pressure to smoke, drink, entertain, join country clubs, send their children to private schools, travel etc. Is that somehow different than a lower paid worker who smokes, drinks, entertains, plays golf on a public course, sends his kids to a public school, goes away for a weekend once in awhile. What is the difference, the wealthy folk are consuming big, the not so wealthy is consuming on a lower level. It seems that is Ok for the big guy, but not for the little guy. It is funny how that works, pressure for the wealthy to live it up, but wasteful, or whatever for the lower paid. HMMMMM.

I am not holding high income earners who consume their entire income to a different standard than low income earners who consume their entire income. I am simply pointing out two things:

1. The prevalence of those with low income who understand the principle of building wealth is virtually non-existent, whereas those medium/high income better grasp the concept.

2. Virtually everyone, even those with humble income, have some basis to save or invest.

If someone wants to consume their entire income, that is their choice. But we should not bemoan the wealth gap that develops because some people use their money to build more money, and others do not.
 
ALTF4
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:28 pm

Quoting zalemam (Reply 23):

How about you come back with a chart that compares government programs that are actually in need, alright? I'm sorry, but I don't think it is my responsibility as a citizen to support the drug-addict wacko pissing in his beer bottle on the side of the road.

The truth is, as it is right now, if somebody really needs help and really needs to improve their lives and "pull out of the muck", they can. Throwing money at the problem won't solve the issue of some people not having enough self motivation to even improve their lives. You can't look me in the eye, and tell me seriously, that somebody living in a house stacked from floor to ceiling with trash and human waste that they would improve their lives if somebody handed them $15,000.

You see, throwing money at the issue does not fix the heart of the matter, that some people, like it or not, are lazy, unmotivated, would rather prey on others for their day to day needs, or just simply cannot or will not improve their situation. If you hand them $15,000 to clean themselves up, get an education, and make a life for themselves, they would blow it on more junk.

Now, if we're talking about a single mom who has two kids and who's husband died or abandoned her, we can talk.

But as long as we're talking about programs such as those that target people who rarely improve their situation, or programs that target "family planning" (don't get me started on that crock of BS. EVERYBODY knows that if you stick something in another thing and have a little bit of fun, consequences happen), or programs that hand out money for people to abuse, I'm not interested and will vehemently oppose them.

While we're at it, lets not forget that many of the religious institutions that people like to rally against actually provide a large chunk of these assistance programs. The biggest one in my city/town is run by volunteers with churches from all over the area donating food and resources. Something to keep in mind the next time you (anybody, not you specifically zaleman) degrade those who are 'silly enough' to believe such crazy ideas.

Call me selfish (I don't care), but I would rather people who know how to handle money be put in charge of that 42 billion, so I can get a small business loan the next time I want to start a business.

Lastly, unless you are out there volunteering time in the community, working at homeless shelters, serving dinners, or doing other things such as that, all this empty complaining about the situation makes you quite hypocritical. Get out there, spend a weekend repairing a house, build a house with habitat for humanity, mentor a student in the inner-city... DO SOMETHING before complaining and whining about the situation here.

If we all spent as much time personally contributing to the effort to help people as we spend complaining about tax cuts and other junk, I'd betcha the world would be a better place. If you already do? I think we should all say thank you.
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Tugger
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RE: Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.

Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:52 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 18):
The federal government allocates its resources based on things like the census, not on how much each state contributes. This is what it deemed "appropriate level" and it is based on California-style logic. If California has a problem with how Federal funds are allocated, lobby to change the law, don't ignore it and drive itself into a massive financial hole and then complain about it.

California's budget problems are its own fault, not the Federal government's nor of other states. It - not anyone else - chose to overspend.

California pays a massive amount for illegal immigration impacts and the federal government does not properly fund systems to address it. Funnily enough the impacts of illegal immigration are about equal to the deficit faced.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 35):
And what is exactly is "one's fair share"? The top 1% already pay 50% or more of all taxes, how much higher should they go? 70%? 90%?

"Fair share" would be a simple flat tax of say 1% (or even ½% or less) based on the net wealth, all the funds and holdings they control, of an individual (or corporation) for a given year. That way everyone pays and it is proportionate to the benefit they receive for the society that is created and supported. Of course it will not be allowed becasue it will not allow the loopholes and write offs.

Quoting dxing (Reply 37):
BINGO. No need to go any farther. Interesting to note that the country got along just fine without personal income tax for the better part of 126 years until the ratification of the 16th amendment.

So you are recommending a return to the federal government depending only on indirect taxes, i.e., tariff duties, corporation and other excise taxes, as its chief sources of revenue? Prior to income taxes (which I agree are not the best way to fund the government) revenues came not from labor, but from taxes on goods—tariffs on imported products and excise taxes on items like alcohol, tobacco, firearms and margarine.

However no matter how you slice it the wealthy will always pay more of the "funding" as they have the greater resources with which to spend or that access a greater array of what could be taxable.

Quoting dxing (Reply 37):
Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
You do realize that California provides more revenue to the nation and federal government than it receives back? California subsidizes the nation, it's economy is just that large. I am sure it wishes the nation would be more self sufficient.

HIs comment was about the state of the State of California and he was right on the mark. High taxes and yet still a high defict. If you can't control spending, no tax will be enough.

Again look at the cost of illegal immigration and the amount of the deficit (annual). Strangely (not) they almost exactly match. Illegal immigration is not something that a state is supposed to be responsible for and California happens to bear the biggest impact of all the states. I agree that California needs to "get tougher" on how it handles it internally, however that does not excuse the lack of control by the federal government or funding for its impacts if they won't control it.

Quoting dxing (Reply 46):
Since they face the same problem. They pay in and get little back.

Are you sure?

It seems to me that the wealthy benefit the most from the society that has been created within the USA. The wealthy get more back than anyone on food stamps or welfare (two things which I think should be discontinued as a continuous benefit, these things should only be short term).

Tugg

[Edited 2011-03-17 11:01:35]
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