MattRB
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Canadian Government Falls

Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:52 pm

The Conservative minority government has fallen, having been found in contempt of Parliament: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/03/25/pol-defeat.html

As a consequence, Canadians will be going to the polls in early May to elect a new government.

This is the first time a Canadian government has been found in contempt of Parliament.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
N1120A
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:14 pm

Yay. This government has ridden Chretien's economic coattails, while seemingly returning to the corporatist corruption of the Mulrooney days. Its about time.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
dxing
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:56 pm

Clearly the minority in Canada is being suppressed. We should immediately begin bombing in support of the rebels!!!      
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Arrow
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:13 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
Yay. This government has ridden Chretien's economic coattails, while seemingly returning to the corporatist corruption of the Mulrooney days. Its about time

Don't hold your breath. As bad as the Tories have been, the other guys are far worse. And if the polling has any validity at all you're more likely to see a Tory majority this time.

Quoting dxing (Reply 2):
Clearly the minority in Canada is being suppressed. We should immediately begin bombing in support of the rebels

  

Aren't we close to the 200th anniversary of the War of 1812? Maybe a re-enactment is in order? We'll take Detroit again, although gawd knows why we'd want it. You can have Toronto.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
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c172akula
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:21 pm

Here comes a big waste of ~300M CAD, for most likely the same outcome, another Conservative minority.
 
Boeing744
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:31 pm

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 4):
Here comes a big waste of ~300M CAD, for most likely the same outcome, another Conservative minority.

This kind of rhetoric frustrates me a little bit. We would be having an election in only 18 months anyways.

Parliament was not working. There were ethical questions regarding the current government. Within our current system that means we need an election. That's parliamentary democracy for you, whether you like it or not.

I mean, c'mon... Would people prefer we just didn't have elections at all? Sure, it would save us some money...
 
ronglimeng
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:03 pm

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 5):
I mean, c'mon... Would people prefer we just didn't have elections at all? Sure, it would save us some money...


You certainly get that impression listening to man-in-the-street interviews! It bothers me that so many people in our democracy are so apathetic. People eventually get the kind of government they deserve.
 
AirCanada787
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:30 pm

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 5):
This kind of rhetoric frustrates me a little bit. We would be having an election in only 18 months anyways.

Parliament was not working. There were ethical questions regarding the current government. Within our current system that means we need an election. That's parliamentary democracy for you, whether you like it or not.

I fully agree! Parliament was not working and there have been far to many ethical issues with this government, its pretty annoying that we are likely to end up with the same people in power however.
The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
 
dxing
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:24 pm

Quoting arrow (Reply 3):
We'll take Detroit again, although gawd knows why we'd want it

Any bombing or shelling of Detroit would result in improvements to the city! Let fly!!!   
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
A346Dude
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:00 am

I would vote in this election if any of the parties had something to offer. Needless to say I will stay home this time.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
matthew11
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:44 am

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 9):

I am in the same boat, nobody stands out.
Matt from YYC
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:36 am

Hopefully we won't get to see Harper and his cronies again.
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tu204
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:07 pm

How the hell can an election cost $300CAD and how the hell does the Bloc Quebecois always manage to get seats in your parliament?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
ronglimeng
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:32 pm

I am disappointed with the comments from both of you guys in Replies (9) and (10).

Even if you don't see a difference in policy or behaviour at the level of the national party leaders, you can still vote on the basis of who your riding candidates are. Just get off your bums and attend an all-candidates meeting in the next month or so. Maybe that will reduce your apathy.
 
MattRB
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:02 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 12):
How the hell can an election cost $300CAD

That's $300 MILLION CAD.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 12):
how the hell does the Bloc Quebecois always manage to get seats in your parliament?

They get elected, like any other Member of Parliament.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
A346Dude
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:22 pm

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 13):
I am disappointed with the comments from both of you guys in Replies (9) and (10).

Even if you don't see a difference in policy or behaviour at the level of the national party leaders, you can still vote on the basis of who your riding candidates are. Just get off your bums and attend an all-candidates meeting in the next month or so. Maybe that will reduce your apathy.

I don't have apathy.

I used to be really into politics and watched the campaigns very closely when I was a little younger. Then I paid attention for a couple years and realized almost everyone involved is, if not an outright liar, a master of telling half truths and shifting their positions to suit the political winds of the hour. I realized that by voting I was giving permission to govern to people of no integrity who I didn't trust or respect. So now I don't give them the satisfaction.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
Quokka
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:38 pm

Excuse my ignorance, but is politics in Canada similar to that down-under? Here it often seems that there are no substantive differences between the major parties and exchanges in Parliament (at least those we see on TV) are limited to rhetoric and personal abuse. Yet behind the scenes, the parties often work together in a much more co-operative manner. Is that the case in Canada?

What are the major differences between the various actors in Canada? What are the policy areas that result in real debate rather than opposition simply because there is an opposition? Do politicians in Canada have real principals and ideals (not idealism but practical ideas) that separate them?

I am asking because I am genuinely interested and if members in Canada can reply by outlining the differences without the usual "you did..." ,"so did you..." and childish point scoring that dominates discussion of politics in other threads, that would be useful.
 
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czbbflier
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:14 pm

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 9):
I would vote in this election if any of the parties had something to offer. Needless to say I will stay home this time.
Quoting matthew11 (Reply 10):
I am in the same boat, nobody stands out.

All right. Your point is made. However there is something you can do. Spoil your ballot. Participate in the process- a process that, although it sounds cliche is nonetheless true, people died for your right.

So spoil your ballot. Give none of them satisfaction but register your dissatisfaction by going in there and, a) voting for all of them; or b) writing some choice words on your ballot. All the scrutineers for all the parties will definitely see it. Events like this make their way up the food chain (or down the food chain- depending on how you see it). It might not cause REAL change but at least you will have sent a message.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 12):
How the hell can an election cost $300CAD and how the hell does the Bloc Quebecois always manage to get seats in your parliament?

lol. $300 million dollars. And frankly, if all the politicians are busy in an election they're not spending $300 million on other stuff- which they would. So an election it is.

This really ticks me off... when we have unpopular governments we wish we could have them fired. We wish we could have an election. When we have a government that is underperforming but their shortcomings are not registering with the public (ie. they are too technical to report or too hard to cover by the media.... or the media is in bed with the government) then nobody cares.

More representatives are in the opposition than in the government. That means, although not necessarily always the case, that more Canadians voted against the government than for it in the previous election.

Want something different? DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. Campaign. Vote strategically.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 16):
Excuse my ignorance, but is politics in Canada similar to that down-under? Here it often seems that there are no substantive differences between the major parties and exchanges in Parliament (at least those we see on TV) are limited to rhetoric and personal abuse. Yet behind the scenes, the parties often work together in a much more co-operative manner. Is that the case in Canada?

Quokka- they all support the Queen. Except for the Bloc. Apart from that....   I'll take a stab at it later. Serious time constraints this morning.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 16):
I am asking because I am genuinely interested and if members in Canada can reply by outlining the differences without the usual "you did..." ,"so did you..." and childish point scoring that dominates discussion of politics in other threads, that would be useful.

Oh, you are either hilariously funny or unreasonably demanding. lol
 
Boeing744
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:06 pm

I just attended the NDP's official campaign launch at the Chateau Laurier.* Mr. Layton wasn't looking too great but he gave a decent speech - pretty much what I expected from him. I thought there was a fairly heavy focus on Western Canada. I think we're going to see the NDP target some key ridings in Vancouver and Edmonton. He also seemed to try to woo Quebec to an extent. I did notice quite a lack of anything in his speech specifically for Ontario.

I will be also going to the Liberals' campaign launch at another hotel in a few hours. I hope Mr. Ignatieff comes out very strongly against a coalition or he will just get destroyed by the Conservative rhetoric in the campaign.

*Disclaimer: I am NOT an NDP supporter. Just a political junkie who will go to as many events as possible!
 
tu204
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:44 pm

Quoting MattRB (Reply 14):
That's $300 MILLION CAD.

My bad, I forgot to add the M. But tell me, why do the elections themselves cost that much to the taxpayer? They don't cost that much in Russia and we have freaking helicopters that fly to the Chukcha's herding villages (our version of your Inuit). And we have a population 4 times larger than yours. How?

[Edited 2011-03-27 10:32:58 by srbmod]
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
AirCanada787
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:27 pm

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 13):
Even if you don't see a difference in policy or behaviour at the level of the national party leaders, you can still vote on the basis of who your riding candidates are.

Exactly, voter turn out is always getting lower, yet everyone still complains about the government. In the end someone will be elected to represent you and your riding everyone should at least thinking about who they want to represent them in Ottawa.

[Edited 2011-03-27 10:33:25 by srbmod]
The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
 
N1120A
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:23 pm

Quoting arrow (Reply 3):

Don't hold your breath. As bad as the Tories have been, the other guys are far worse. And if the polling has any validity at all you're more likely to see a Tory majority this time.

You are kidding, right? The last 2 major (Campbell was largely a place holder) Conservative PMs have been corrupt and backward, with the exception of Mulrooney's forcing Canada to move to the Loonie and Twonie. The Liberals have always been the best party for Canada.

As for the polling, its a visceral reaction. A week before the vote, Harper was getting destroyed in the polls. Once campaigning opens up, a real sense of where things are going will develop

Quoting tu204 (Reply 12):
how the hell does the Bloc Quebecois always manage to get seats in your parliament?

Um, because people in Quebec vote for them. In Quebec, it is pretty much a race between the Liberals and the Bloc. They are largely similar on social and political issues, with the difference being secession. That's why the Bloc coalitioned with Harper this time, despite deep ideological differences, because the Liberals are the threat to their power base.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 16):
Excuse my ignorance, but is politics in Canada similar to that down-under? Here it often seems that there are no substantive differences between the major parties and exchanges in Parliament (at least those we see on TV) are limited to rhetoric and personal abuse. Yet behind the scenes, the parties often work together in a much more co-operative manner. Is that the case in Canada?

Well, the fact that there has been a coalition for some time means that the parties have to work together to some extent, but I also think that is what is at the crux of this non-confidence vote. The Conservatives have hidden the costs of significant government programs from the other parties.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 16):
Do politicians in Canada have real principals and ideals (not idealism but practical ideas) that separate them?

The Liberals brought every, single good reform to Canadian law. That's what separates them.

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 18):
I did notice quite a lack of anything in his speech specifically for Ontario.

I think the NDP's strength in Ontario is pretty stagnant. They probably won't lose or win seats.

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 18):
He also seemed to try to woo Quebec to an extent.

Odd move, given that it is either Bloc/Parti or Liberal in Quebec. Neither the NDP nor the Conservatives really appeal to the average Quebecois.

[Edited 2011-03-27 10:36:27 by srbmod]
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Boeing744
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:34 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
Well, the fact that there has been a coalition for some time means that the parties have to work together to some extent, but I also think that is what is at the crux of this non-confidence vote. The Conservatives have hidden the costs of significant government programs from the other parties.

I'm not totally sure what you're getting at. There has been no coalition government... Parties have been voting with the government but that does not mean there was a coalition.

I do appreciate an American's enthusiasm in our affairs though!  

[Edited 2011-03-26 15:36:41]
 
Boeing744
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:35 pm

I just attended the Liberal kickoff rally. It was a lot higher energy than I expected. It also had a big emphasis on the local candidates in the National Capital Region. We'll see how things go for them I guess... I really think the first week or so will determine the tone of this campaign. If the Liberal camp can avoid some Dion-esque gaffes they may do better than expected...
 
N1120A
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:37 pm

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 25):

I'm not totally sure what you're getting at. There has been no coalition government...

Sorry, I mean a minority government. Parliamentary systems are odd.

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 25):

I do appreciate an American's enthusiasm in our affairs though!

Well, I'm practically Canadian at this point.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
greasespot
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:34 pm

I am far from a stephen Harper supporter but I want noting to do with a govt that forms a coalition with the BLOC. Now it is great Iggy has come out and said no coalition and the prime minister will be the one who get the most seats. Part of me is wondering if this new found resolve will fade if he finds himself behind Harper. I believe he only said that because he has been hammered for his previous answers on coalition where he refused or was evasive in his answers.

Personally I like the idea of a Liberal Minority govt.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
TheCol
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:42 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
The Liberals have always been the best party for Canada.

  

Here's a little tidbit that should enlighten you about Canadian politics:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...civics-lesson-as-a-campaign-theme/

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
The last 2 major (Campbell was largely a place holder) Conservative PMs have been corrupt

And there have been no corrupt Liberal PM's? Your hero Chrétien was just as dirty as Mulroney was.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
Harper was getting destroyed in the polls.

Again, another   . Polls that were released a week before the budget showed that the Conservatives had a comfortable lead. Not that anyone with half a brain thinks political polls are credible anyway.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
The Conservatives have hidden the costs of significant government programs from the other parties.

Oh, and the Liberals haven't?

Quoting greasespot (Reply 28):
Part of me is wondering if this new found resolve will fade if he finds himself behind Harper.

Of course it will. You can bet that there will be a Liberal/NDP coalition, if that's the only way to defeat the conservatives.

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 29):
I don't believe in democracy, I believe in freedom.

The two go hand in hand. Can't have one without the other.
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YVRLTN
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:28 am

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 6):
bothers me that so many people in our democracy are so apathetic.

Only ~30% of the nation voted last time right? Something to consider: what has all the fuss been about in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Syria, Bahrain, Yemen? People wanting the right to choose their goverment...

Im a Brit with permanent residence in Canada, so Im not eligible to vote.

My observation. The economy down south and in the UK where I came from are in the crapper. All things considered, Canada has done very well in comparison. Someone must have done something right somewhere down the line. In fact, Cameron in the UK when entering into their coalition goverment was telling the nation they would be looking to Canada to emulate their success in riding out the poor economy with a coalition government. Make of it what you will...
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czbbflier
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:38 am

Quoting Quokka (Reply 16):
What are the major differences between the various actors in Canada? What are the policy areas that result in real debate rather than opposition simply because there is an opposition? Do politicians in Canada have real principals and ideals (not idealism but practical ideas) that separate them?
OK, Quokka, you asked for it.

1. Major differences. 1. Bloc Quebecois, arguably lead by the best leader on Parliament Hill, Gilles Duceppe, it is a party that advocates Quebec succession. Why does it exist in the national parliament? It is the will of the Quebec people to have that say in Ottawa. Canada is a democracy and they are democratically elected. The Bloc Quebecois as a national presence has its roots in the Conservative Party. Brian Mulroney gave them legitimacy when he formed a coalition with Lucien Bouchard to make "Les Bleus" a force to be reckoned with in Quebec to counter "Les Rouges" otherwise known as the Liberals. Historically, the party that carries Quebec has formed the government.

However, the coalition between the separatists under Bouchard and the Federalists under Mulroney crumbled and the Bloc was formed. While they have the long-term goal of separating from Canada, the Bloc is much more pragmatic: they want to get from the national government everything for Quebec as they can. As a British Columbian I am quite envious of that sort of focussed approach (extortion) but if it works for them and the rest of us are willing to put up with it then it exists.

The Bloc Quebecois and the New Democratic Party- NDP (Labour) have a very similar philosophy. Left-leaning, socialist as the ultimate, they both recognize that we live in a mixed economy despite their leanings and tendencies. It compromises them to some extent because they have dreams and aspirations but have not been able to connect the dots between where we are and where they want us to be- in such a way that people will vote for them.

The BQ carries the majority of seats from Quebec but with zero chance of becoming the government they are easy to vote for to ensure Quebec's interests are advanced without any real threat of causing a constitutional crisis.

The NDP is so stuck on two or three issues, they simply don't stand up to the scrutiny on anything else. People vote for the NDP mostly because of the local candidates or the underlying philosophy. The policies they bring to the table are usually too shallow and irrelevant to most Canadians- or else they are usurped by the Liberals.

Resiliantly anti-war, the NDP was largely responsible for Liberal PM Jean Chretien's decision to stay out of Iraq in 2001-2002. And the more pragmatic nature of leader of the NDP, Jack Layton, has allowed the Conservative government to survive as long as it has- Layton has supported the minority government's budgets in the past because the Conservatives were prepared to throw bones to the NDP's base.

Historically, the NDP has been the conscience of Parliament- a place they are content with as they are able to have their agenda partly fulfilled without ever worrying about the responsibility of governing so they can maintain their pie-in-the-sky perspective and keep their hands clean of all the less popular decisions that have to be made to afford their wish-list.

The Liberal Party has historically been Canada's "naturally governing party". It is a resilient and flexible party with pragmatism as it's unofficial leading principle. "Do whatever it takes to get elected" is one way to put it. Pierre Trudeau, a defining figure in Canadian politics, tended to campaign on the left and then govern from the right. One of his most famous election lies was to categorically deny that there would be wage and price controls in the 1974 election, was elected because of this position and then immediately implemented them.

In Canada's West, there has been a tendency to dislike the Liberals (passionately) because of the party's underlying view that the west is a centre for resources and markets for Central Canada. The National Policy of John A. Macdonald may have been a Conservative one- one that imposed high tariffs on imports, but at least there was a railway in the offing. With Mackenzie and the Liberals, there were still the tariffs, but no railway. More recently, Trudeau's National Energy Program ensured several generations of hate towards the Liberals.

Their policies are always in flux so much of what the Liberals offer is image and stability. Ideology-free govering. This is very appealing to Canadians. Do whatever is cheapest but of the highest quality is what Canadians tend to want and when the Liberals are on-message, this is what they are best able to sell. And Canadians buy it enough to reward them with majority governments.

However, because of this electability and their ability to overlook principle if it means the trough for its supporters, the party tends to be corrupt. Membership can be controlled. Potential candidates may run in a nomination race but the leader has much to say about who has a successful campaign. EVERYTHING is seen as patronage in the Liberal circles and if you back the wrong horse....

Currently, the party is deeply divided and lost under its current leadership. There is a long-standinag rift between the left-of-centre and the right-of-centre factions within the party and it is killing the party every so slowly. In my memory, the party's rift began with the election of Pierre Trudeau as leader in 1968. Trudeau hailed from the party's left-wing intellectual quadrant, defeating Paul Martin, a businessman and standard bearer of the party's business elite.

When Trudeau stepped down in 1984, a former finance minister and business elite type, John Turner was elected leader. However, Jean Chretien, the rival who lost to him, never let the loss go. Because of his own ineptitude Turner relenquished the leadership but not after being seriously wounded internally by Chretien.

Chretien carried the party forward and some of the most corrupt politics in Canada took place under his stewardship. In 1995, Quebeckers missed their separation mark by less than one percent- 49.42% which scared Chretien enough that he essentially threw the federal treasury into Quebec to raise the federal government's profile as well as reap the benefit of being the benefactor of the Quebec economy. Trouble is, there were almost no controls on how the money got spent and the infamous Sponsorship scandal erupted. Senior government officials are still doing time in jail I imagine while certain elected ones managed to get out with barely the skin on their ass.

Chretien's finance minister was Paul Martin Junior, the son of Paul Martin Senior- the guy who lost to Pierre Trudeau. Martin Junior had as a life's ambition to avenge his father's loss to the party's left wing and slowly orchestrated a riding association by riding association purge of all non-supporters of his. Martin's tactics literally gutted the party and those who remained were loyalists to Martin, organized by sycophants and too incompetent to run a lemonade stand.

Martin's singleminded goal, to be made leader of the Liberal Party and hence Prime Minister was achieved but quite literally there was no agenda following the victory. Martin floundered the instant he took the oath of office of Prime Minister. Canada lost one of its very best finance ministers and gained one of its worst prime ministers.

The Gomery Commission appointed by Martin to look into the sponsorship scandal released its first report and it was a game changer for Martin and his minority government. A non-confidence vote was held (introduced by the Conservatives under Stephen Harper) and Martin's government fell.

He resigned shortly thereafter. At the leadership convention, later that year, Stephan Dion became leader because of some backroom dealings. His win ensured that the party stalwarts who either stepped back or who were explicitly purged under Martin's regime stayed away. His completely closed-minded, naive and disconnected approach to leadership opened him completely to Harper's bullying mockery and derision tactics.

Even with Dion stepping down and Michael Ignatieff now as leader, the party seems to be teetering under the same circumstances.

Martin was a feckless leader. Dion was as much a leader as a pile of dung. Ignatieff, while seemingly to be a perfect fit is proving himself to be controlled by the backrooms- those same manipulative moral-free, experience-free, trust-free backrooms that were the undoing of the party's infrastructure under Martin.

However, this election shall prove Ignatieff's meddle. Harper and the Conservatives have been throwing a lot of dirt and negative advertising at him and some of it is sticking. The revulsion to Harper's tactics are starting to become apparent. It will be interesting to see if the negative advertising will blow up in Harper's face this election.

This leaves us with the Conservatives. Lead by Stephen Harper, the former President of the Canadian Taxpayer's Federation, the Conservative Party has the inside edge in this election for a number of reasons.

First, it's internal processes are not corrupt. Harper is the leader and there are few challengers. The party has access to very deep pockets- the likes of which are staying away from the current iteration of the Liberal Party. It has momentum on its side. It also is the "victim" of the non-confidence vote. Canadians are tired of going to the polls as you can see reflected by this thread and to simply say that they were forced into the election by the bad guys in the opposition will have considerable credibility with the electorate.

They have been ready for an election for months.

However, the Conservatives have been fast and loose with Parliament and the completely unprecedented finding by the Commons Committee that the Government is in contempt of Parliament- the reason why the government fell- will garner some interest in the election. I, myself will be very interested to pick up on some of the details. How a government can be guilty of contempt of Parliament is beyond me- at least without a civil war in the offing but hey- this is Canada and anything peaceful is possible- provided we throw enough money at it.... say $300 million for an election!

When the Conservative Party was the Progressive Conservative Party, yes, I know, an oxymoron if ever there were one, the PCs were very much in line with the Liberals- except for colour, it was very hard to distinguish the two. But when the Reform Party (an ideologically social AND economic conservative party from the west) merged with the PC party, the progressive wing was shut out and the party moved to the right socially as well as economically.

And so these dynamics are what bring us to where we are today. Is there a big difference between the parties? Yes and no. Yes, in that they have their perspectives. No, in that they all think they have the answer to all our troubles. And that this answer each of them has is more or less the same one they had for us in the last three elections.

And so we will dutifully go to the polls. At least those of us who do go to the polls. And we will cast our ballots. And nothing will change.

My guess is that we will go to the polls again in yet another federal election in 2015 or 2016. Students of Canadian history are going to hate this period of time in a hundred years. Of all 22 prime ministers who have served since confederation in 1867, eight have served since 1979.

[Edited 2011-03-27 10:35:21 by srbmod]
 
A346Dude
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:23 am

RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:55 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 30):
The two go hand in hand. Can't have one without the other.

Nope, they are two totally different things. If you are in the 49% and the 51% want to oppress you, you have no freedom in a democracy.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
Quokka
Posts: 1315
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:28 am

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 33):


Thank you for your detailed and informed summation. It certainly helps make some sense of the reports in the media that tend to emphasize the drama and don't look at the substance.

I appreciate your reply and your taking the time to compose it.
 
A346Dude
Posts: 1161
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:52 am

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 33):
DING!!!! Round One goes to Nobody. No personal attacks, ok? There is disagreement over whether one SHOULD vote or not. Some of us happen to disagree with the assertion that apathy will render a better government in the end. Moralizing and telling people they should lose their citizenship because they don't vote is equally disturbing as their conscious decision not to vote. As a political scientist by schooling, a political junkie and former political candidate, even I sometimes wonder what is the point. I have spoiled my ballot in the past and see it as a legitimate way of saying "none of the above".

A couple late-night thoughts:

1) I think we are somewhat in disagreement but at least we both care about our country and are trying to make it better in our own way.
2) Not sure if you were referring to me, but I am not apathetic unless you define apathy as not voting. I care very much about this country.
3) I don't see how not voting is any "worse" than spoiling your ballot or voting for a minor party. The end result is exactly the same. The only difference is one option takes 5 minutes more. Trust me, it's not the couple minutes in line and one minute behind the cardboard divider that deters me from voting.

[Edited 2011-03-26 23:53:29]
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
WrenchBender
Posts: 1662
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:59 am

RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:59 am

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 13):
I am disappointed with the comments from both of you guys in Replies (9) and (10).

As someone who will try and get home so I may actually vote in this election ( i was disenfranchised by my company who could not be bothered to try and make arrangements for us to participate last election). I find you attitudes hugely disappointing, but then tu204 stated it best



WrenchBender

[Edited 2011-03-27 10:35:42 by srbmod]
Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
 
photopilot
Posts: 3087
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:04 pm

A little election levity......

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/Steve_YYZ/Misc_Photos/Election.jpg
 
Boeing744
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:13 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 37):

Ahhhahaha... that made my morning so much better!
 
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Revelation
Posts: 14485
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:06 pm

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 15):
I realized that by voting I was giving permission to govern to people of no integrity who I didn't trust or respect. So now I don't give them the satisfaction.

While I do vote, I also sympathize with your point of view and feel you are entitled to have it.

I feel a society that would punish people for not voting is just enabling mediocre candidates and giving itself a false sense of comfort about the state of their political system.

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 17):
people died for your right


Maybe some enter into military service with this kind of goal, but from what I can tell it's a small minority.

From most of the soldiers I've talked to, they didn't join up to save democracy or any such thing. Most of them just did it because they had no choice (you do remember the draft, no?), or they really had no other decent economic opportunity to pursue, or were just bored and thought it would be an adventure, or were a badass and wanted to wear a uniform and be paid to commit legalized mayhem.

In many of these cases the choice of joining was being made for them.

And in many cases, war is not used to promote or propagate democracy, but instead to promote "vital national interests" which tend in the case of the West tend to be capitalist in nature.

I could say more, but am wanting to just address some of the points raised here.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
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ScarletHarlot
Posts: 4251
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:24 pm

I wish I could still vote in Canada.

I have been very disappointed with the Conservatives' lack of fiscal restraint. After the Liberals got the budget back into the black Harper's gang has put it back in the red - in a time of great prosperity for Canada. It is true that Canada didn't get sucked into the economic morass that has happened here in the States but I don't think Harper's government deserves credit for that.

Something I read recently about Harper is that his and his party's goal is to move Canada more to the centre-right. To me one of the most wonderful things about Canada is its leftiness. That is what makes me long to return home. I would also be very upset to see that rightward trend continue.

I would love to see the Liberals get back in, but I am sure it will be minority if it happens at all.
But that was when I ruled the world
 
ACDC8
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:48 am

I'm all for the cherish your democracy debate, but seriously, this will be our 5th Federal Election in the last 11 years ... no wonder Canadian's aren't going out to vote anymore, and I don't blame them. Its gonna be another Tory minority, Iggy's gonna bugger off again after and come back in two years and start it all over again ...   
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
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czbbflier
Posts: 864
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:56 am

Quoting Quokka (Reply 30):
Thank you for your detailed and informed summation. It certainly helps make some sense of the reports in the media that tend to emphasize the drama and don't look at the substance.

I appreciate your reply and your taking the time to compose it.

You're welcome. Re-reading it myself tonight I notice it's not the easiest to read and it fails to actually answer your question. You know where to turn if you're a sucker enough for more!

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 31):
1) I think we are somewhat in disagreement but at least we both care about our country and are trying to make it better in our own way.
2) Not sure if you were referring to me, but I am not apathetic unless you define apathy as not voting. I care very much about this country.
3) I don't see how not voting is any "worse" than spoiling your ballot or voting for a minor party. The end result is exactly the same. The only difference is one option takes 5 minutes more. Trust me, it's not the couple minutes in line and one minute behind the cardboard divider that deters me from voting.

My friend, we are not in as much a disagreement as you might think. Our perspectives may be a bit different but I'll first answer your comments by saying that I cast no aspersions on your support or love of your country. You are doing your part to make your community a better place- however way you define community- don't stop now!

However, you seem concerned somehow that I may be slagging you as apathetic. It is not a personal trait. Statistically, if about 40% of those eligible to vote aren't voting then apathy is a natural conclusion. If one happens to be building a new school on election day and cannot stop long enough to vote because it is the day the cement is being poured then certainly, I completely concur there is no apathy at play.

However, my friend, this is where we do disagree. Not voting and spoiling a ballot are most definitely different things.

Taking those few minutes to stand behind the cardboard divider and explicitly indicating that none of the candidates / parties / elections... make a difference, you are making your feelings and your intent explicitly known. Staying away says nothing more than "I am staying away". How can that possibly be interpreted as anything other than apathy? Indeed, there's no way to know because those who stay away choose to silence themselves.

Sure, pollsters can ask people in the street why they didn't vote. But if this was done to collect official opinion, then what's the point of having elections at all? Why bother with elected officials? Let's just set up a computer that cuts cheques and passes laws and someone simply uploads poll results every 48 hours to guide its logarithms.

An election is the only mechanism that exists to have a voice in our government and our governance. And the only way to make the election work is for people to show up and express their preference either by marking the ballot with a single, undebatable mark or else defying the standards and actually writing something down. It is the effort that counts because it is done at the critical moment when the 'system' is actually listening.

So, my friend, your defensiveness surrounding your choice not to vote merely underscores you know that choosing not to vote sends a weak message. That you must tell me that you are not apathetic and that you "love this country" is nothing more than an attempt to strengthen your message that you care. But your personal love of your country is not in question here nor was it ever.

I entered the fray concerning voting because while I strongly believe that one ought to vote, I find it equally wrong to attack people personally for choosing not to vote. I may disagree with that choice but I defend that right equally. Am I passing judgement on those who don't vote? Not at all. I merely disagree but intervene to uphold the right NOT to vote as a valid democratic value. Not to vote is a bad choice in my opinion, but having that choice is at the core of my democratic value set- one that I will defend nonetheless.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 35):
Maybe some enter into military service with this kind of goal, but from what I can tell it's a small minority.

From most of the soldiers I've talked to, they didn't join up to save democracy or any such thing. Most of them just did it because they had no choice (you do remember the draft, no?), or they really had no other decent economic opportunity to pursue, or were just bored and thought it would be an adventure, or were a badass and wanted to wear a uniform and be paid to commit legalized mayhem.

In many of these cases the choice of joining was being made for them.

And in many cases, war is not used to promote or propagate democracy, but instead to promote "vital national interests" which tend in the case of the West tend to be capitalist in nature.

You are most likely correct. No dispute there. However, soldiers die for reasons other (and usually larger than) their personal reasons for joining the military and despite their own vainglory. Wars are fought not because its an "adventure" where you can wreak mayhem or because individual participants get to wear some camp clothing. They are fought and people die in the name of causes and principles. Democracy and the right to voice an opinion, the right to select who gets to govern, is definitely one of those principles.

It is possible that many are fought in the name of capitalism (in the modern era) but stop and think about where democracies tend to flourish the most and best.... in capitalist countries. I see a very strong correlation there.

Additionally, democracy was not invented in the last 80 years. It is not a flash-in-the-pan concept that is on par with the iPad or even the telephone.

Those who have fought and died to get us to where we are today (and there are others on the losing side of the battles whose lives are equally important in the equation) date back to the days of the ancient Greeks.

Modern democracy as we know and understand it has its roots on the battlefield of Runnymede in 1215.

Since then- and I am no student of historic wars but these come to mind....
  • The English Civil War.
  • The War of Independence circa 1776 might be one.
  • The French Revolution is another.
  • The American Civil War.
  • WW I.
  • WW II.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 35):
I could say more, but am wanting to just address some of the points raised here.

I'm sure you could but let's not go there. a) It's OT and b) we might just cut to the chase and agree to disagree.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 14485
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:12 pm

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 38):
They are fought and people die in the name of causes and principles.

Almost always without a complete and unbiased review of the costs and the alternatives.

When all you have is a hammer (i.e. a large military), every problem looks like a nail.

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 38):
Democracy and the right to voice an opinion, the right to select who gets to govern, is definitely one of those principles.

Indeed, it is one, but not the only.

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 38):
Since then- and I am no student of historic wars but these come to mind....

Somehow Vietnam didn't make your list. Clearly it also didn't make GWB/Cheney/Rumsfeld's list either.

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 38):
I'm sure you could but let's not go there. a) It's OT and b) we might just cut to the chase and agree to disagree.

  
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
Arrow
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:25 pm

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 38):
Modern democracy as we know and understand it has its roots on the battlefield of Runnymede in 1215.

Just to nitpick -- I don't think it was a battlefield. I suspect it would have been had John decided not to sign the Magna Carta. Regardless, it didn't buy any peace.

I'm really troubled by ALL parties in this election, because they are failing to come to grips with the major issues that need to be thrashed out. What we all need are policy ideas from all parties to deal with:

1. Health care: without major reform and a new approach to funding, health care is going to collapse under the weight of sick and aging baby boomers. None of the parties is tackling this because they're all scared sh*tless about putting forward anything that shakes up the status quo. But it desperately needs federal leadership -- all the provinces will do is ask for more money and throwing more money at it without major reforms won't do the trick.

2. Trade: for 100 years Canada has benefited from exporting copious amounts of stuff and resources to the US and basked in the glory. Now we need to engage Asian nations, in particular China, and we have no strategic policy for doing that. In the last two years, Chinese state-run organizations (China National Oil Corp) have been making humoungous investments in oil and gas assets here with a view to sucking it all across the Pacific. We have no policy to deal with this, and we run the risk of being the meat in the sandwich when the US finally wakes up to the fact that their guaranteed access to Canadian energy is about to disappear.

3. Productivity: for the last 10 years, productivity in Canadian industry has been declining compared with other nations. We now have a dollar at par with the US and can no longer rely on that cheap dollar to keep our stuff price-competitive. If we don't address this, we'll be forever dismissed as hewers of wood, drawers of water. I don't hear anyone talking about this.

4. And speaking of water -- no one is talking about the huge pressure from our southern neighbour for access to water so they can fill more swimming pools and keep growing tomatoes in places where they should never try to grow tomatoes.

What do we get instead of all that? A focus on coalitions and sleaze. Can we just accept that they are ALL sleazy (as has been pointed out) and give it a rest. If Ignatieff wants to go at Harper for sleaze, I want to see some concrete legislative proposals that would deal with it once and for all -- but you'll never see that because at heart -- they all want to be able to tilt the playing field in their own direction. Sleaze is something every opposition rails against -- until they win an election and form the government. Then they're suddenly silent about it.

OK -- end of rant.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
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czbbflier
Posts: 864
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:32 pm

Quoting arrow (Reply 40):
Just to nitpick -- I don't think it was a battlefield. I suspect it would have been had John decided not to sign the Magna Carta. Regardless, it didn't buy any peace.

lol- point well taken. But I imagine the boys/men on the field that fateful day in Runnymede were looking at certain death. Whatever possessed John to capitulate without so much as a spent arrow is a bit amazing.

All your points in your rant ring so true. As for China's purchasing of our energy assets, the meat in the sandwich, as you put it will only be worth more. A little competition won't hurt us at all.

Meanwhile the productivity issue- I hate to break it to you: internationally we will always be hewers of wood and drawers of water. Except for niche products, our days as an industrial powerhouse are pretty much over. Not good news- but it's the reality.
 
A332
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:41 am

The Conservatives are the only legitimate choice and that's saying a lot right there.

I'm pretty disappointed with Harper & his crew, but I wouldn't vote for anyone else.
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
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czbbflier
Posts: 864
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RE: Canadian Government Falls

Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:36 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 39):
Somehow Vietnam didn't make your list. Clearly it also didn't make GWB/Cheney/Rumsfeld's list either.

As I see it, the Vietnam War was one of those 'skirmishes' that you mentioned. It had nothing to do with democracy. It was about containment - and protection of capitalism. It is a war that does support your theory that it isn't always about democracy. And you are correct- there are some wars that are fought for other reasons- other principles or "conveniences"- without the consideration of alternatives and costs.

And so....

Quoting Revelation (Reply 39):
    

  Cheers!
 
Curtisman
Posts: 938
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Canadian Government Falls

Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:52 pm

Quoting A332 (Reply 42):
The Conservatives are the only legitimate choice and that's saying a lot right there.

I'm pretty disappointed with Harper & his crew, but I wouldn't vote for anyone else.

I'm with you on that. I think we need to get a majority in for a while just so government can operate. This minority thing is just not working. Get in the Conservatives and get the government stabilized for a while.
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AirCanada787
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:56 am

RE: Canadian Government Falls

Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:41 pm

Quoting curtisman (Reply 44):
'm with you on that. I think we need to get a majority in for a while just so government can operate. This minority thing is just not working.

There are many political scientists who believe that minority governments are going to get a lot more common in Canada. We have only have eleven so far but all but four of them have been within the past sixty years. The parties need to learn how to work together and often minority governments benefit Canadians because they are more transparent, generally more accountable and they are often more responsive to issues.

Our past two minority governments have been our longest lasting* so maybe the parties can continue to work together, in a minority situation everyone needs to learn to compromise in-order for government to continue. However after a while its clear that some people get tired of compromising.



*The government during the 14th parliament lasted for over three years however it was only in minority status for just over a year due to people crossing the floor.
The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
 
Curtisman
Posts: 938
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Canadian Government Falls

Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:46 pm

I hear you... unfortunately the latest bout in parliament has not been about working together at all. It is more about posturing a political party to be the leader. From my viewpoint it seems it's not about working the government for Canadians but about fighting with those in power just so they can be in power. The ultimate power struggle hehehe
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