Ken777
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Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:36 pm

Quote:

"When a drug to prevent babies from being born too early won federal approval in February, many doctors, pregnant women and others cheered the step as a major advance against a heartbreaking tragedy.

Then they saw the price tag.

The list price for the drug, Makena, turned out to be a stunning $1,500 per dose. That’s for a drug that must be injected every week for about 20 weeks, meaning it will cost about $30,000 per at-risk pregnancy. If every eligible American woman were to get Makena, the nation’s bloated annual health-care tab would swell by more than $4 billion.

What really infuriates patients and doctors is that the same compound has been available for years at a fraction of the cost — about $10 or $20 a shot."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation.../03/04/AFmRo6qB_story.html?hpid=z3

The scope of the problem is pretty clear, as shown later in the column:

Quote:

More than 500,000 of the 4.2 million women who have babies each year give birth prematurely, and many of the babies don’t survive. Those who do are at increased risk for many health problems, including mental retardation, cerebral palsy and autism.

Being financially pragmatic, the public cost to care for babies born with these health problems will far exceed the $30,000 for protecting the pregnancy. IIRC, Alaska spends about $75,000 a year per "special child" in their school system.

I understand that there is a cost to bringing the drug to market - about $200 Million in this case, but the company fails to mention the tax breaks they will get for that investment. Or the fact that they didn't even invent the drug.

Maybe we need to start looking at a Windfall Profits Tax on the pharma industry that insists on abusive pricing. And maybe this company should loose their exclusive rights to a product that has been available at pharmacies for years.
 
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:56 pm

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DocLightning
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:12 pm

What has happened here is the same thing that happened with SYNAGIS (anti-RSV monoclonal antibody) and botolinum anti-toxin. Both are frightfully expensive (more so than they have to be) but less than the average cost of the problems that they prevent.

They asked: "How much does it cost on average per at-risk pregnancy to provide the NICU and follow-up care to the resultant baby?" They then did some simple arithmetic, figuring out how much this drug would save the system if it were free. Then they priced it so that the cost of the drugs is less than the average cost per at-risk pregnancy.

And yes, it is ghastly and predatory.

But for drugs like botolinum anti-toxin and SYNAGIS, the drugs themselves are expensive to manufacture. They are biologic drugs, meaning that they can't just be synthesized in a series of chemical reactions. They have to be genetically introduced into whole cells (usually Chinese hamster ovary cells... don't ask me why), allowed to be produced in a bioreactor, and then purified. And the slightest contamination kills the whole batch.

But this drug is a small molecule, hydroxyprogesterone. It's just a slight modification on progesterone and the total cost to produce the world's supply of the stuff for a year is probably less than $1000.

The government is going to have to take action on this and also start to investigate other hideously expensive drugs that seem to be priced more to compete with the cost of not taking the drug than they are to recoup the costs of development. It can't even justify R&D on other drugs.

The anti-government people might ask why the market can't just take care of this? Why not just allow compounding pharmacies to continue to make their product. Well, if you read the article, the company now has a patent on this drug and any compounding pharmacy would be violating the patent.

My cousin was born two days ago at 25 weeks' gestation, over three months premature. She's doing well so far, but the idea that someone would want to profit so lavishly off of her innocent suffering makes my blood boil.
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Aaron747
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:31 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
the idea that someone would want to profit so lavishly off of her innocent suffering makes my blood boil

Mine too, as well as any other reasonably-minded person. Capitalism is capitalism, but some things are just f*cking wrong. This is one of them.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
But for drugs like botolinum anti-toxin and SYNAGIS, the drugs themselves are expensive to manufacture.

Well this is the critical thing - some want to point fingers and say all expensive drugs are profiteering, when that's clearly not the case. Hard to focus on that when big pharma is pulling crap like this though.
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PPVRA
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:50 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
I understand that there is a cost to bringing the drug to market - about $200 Million in this case, but the company fails to mention the tax breaks they will get for that investment.

What tax breaks?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
The anti-government people might ask why the market can't just take care of this? Why not just allow compounding pharmacies to continue to make their product. Well, if you read the article, the company now has a patent on this drug and any compounding pharmacy would be violating the patent.

If they didn't even invent the drug, why were they given a patent? Never mind the FDA's hands are obviously all over this.

Sounds more like a broken government problem: broken patent system, and the bureaucrats disliking what was going on before. It's what regulations brought us, not the market.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
474218
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:00 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Maybe we need to start looking at a Windfall Profits Tax on the pharma industry that insists on abusive pricing. And maybe this company should loose their exclusive rights to a product that has been available at pharmacies for years.
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
the idea that someone would want to profit so lavishly off of her innocent suffering makes my blood boil

Mine too, as well as any other reasonably-minded person. Capitalism is capitalism, but some things are just f*cking wrong. This is one of them.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
But for drugs like botolinum anti-toxin and SYNAGIS, the drugs themselves are expensive to manufacture.

Well this is the critical thing - some want to point fingers and say all expensive drugs are profiteering, when that's clearly not the case. Hard to focus on that when big pharma is pulling crap like this though.


So how are the drug companies to re-coup the cost of developing new drugs?

Makena cost $200 million to develop!

I guess you all think Makena should be sold at a price that would never allow the company to make a profit?
 
Ken777
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:11 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
What tax breaks?

If you spend money to develop a product then that cost is a tax deduction. Depending on product you can immediately write off costs, or capitalize them to spread depreciation over a period of time. A $200 million cost will result in a $70,000,000 reduction in income taxes. Unless, of course, they are hit with a windfall tax.

BTW, how much do you think patients in Canada, Australia or the UK will have to pay for the same medication? Do you really believe that any reasonable country will acknowledge any patent rights this company claims? Expecially, as noted in the article:

Quote:

the main study used to demonstrate the drug’s effectiveness was a $5 million project conducted by the National Institutes of Health — paid by taxpayers.
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:23 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
Hard to focus on that when big pharma is pulling crap like this though.

Indeed. And it screws EVERYONE--from those who need it, to the pharmacies that make next to zero on it, to the taxpayers who have to subsidize it.

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Maybe we need to start looking at a Windfall Profits Tax

That's not the answer, but there are other ways to increase accountability.
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PPVRA
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:42 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 6):
If you spend money to develop a product then that cost is a tax deduction. Depending on product you can immediately write off costs, or capitalize them to spread depreciation over a period of time. A $200 million cost will result in a $70,000,000 reduction in income taxes. Unless, of course, they are hit with a windfall tax.

That's not really a "tax break" because you are basing it off their revenues, not their profits. Taxes are paid on profits not revenues.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 6):
BTW, how much do you think patients in Canada, Australia or the UK will have to pay for the same medication? Do you really believe that any reasonable country will acknowledge any patent rights this company claims? Expecially, as noted in the article:

IP rights in the US is broken and needs reform, no doubt about that. I think it's a major issue that needs urgent attention.
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Ken777
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:34 am

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 7):
That's not the answer, but there are other ways to increase accountability.

Windfall Profit Taxes have been used in the past and I think that a Pharma Windfall Tax Bill working it's way through Congress will get the companies involved to re-look at their pricing rather fast. Of course it also pours millions into campaign funds for politicians who work to protect the pharma companies. But it is still a valid approach, especially when it uses comparative costs between countries to determine if the extra taxes are warranted. IMHO we have been suckers for too long when it comes to the costs of medications.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):
That's not really a "tax break" because you are basing it off their revenues, not their profits. Taxes are paid on profits not revenues.

When you have a company making a profit the tax deduction is a reduction in the taxes you actually pay. If a company fails to make a profit in a year then that deduction can be used in another year.
 
JJJ
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:00 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):
Taxes are paid on profits not revenues.

What about income tax? VAT? Property tax?

Of course it's a tax break.
 
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:15 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
Makena cost $200 million to develop!

Which isn't that unusual in the drug industry, is it? $200 million equals what, about 7000 pregnancies at $30 000 each. If this drug is a good as it seems, I'd venture that they'd break even and begin to make a profit after a few of years at the most, if people could afford it.

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DocLightning
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:33 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):

If they didn't even invent the drug, why were they given a patent?

Orphan drug laws and indications. Read the article for more details.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):

So how are the drug companies to re-coup the cost of developing new drugs?

Makena cost $200 million to develop!

Well, at $100/pt/yr and 500,000 pts/yr, they could recoup those costs in 4 years (if I got my math right). At $100/dose (assuming average 4-5 doses per pt.) they could recoup the costs in 1 year.

The actual cost of manufacturing and packaging each dose is very small. Literally pennies per dose. So all of the costs for this drug are R&D.
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Ken777
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:35 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 10):
What about income tax? VAT? Property tax?

The tax break I noted was income tax, which is applied to the taxable net income, not revenues. VAT it a Value Added Tax that is totally unrelated to a company's gross/net profits. Property taxes are normally based on the value of the property owned by the company, but it is not uncommon for a city to provide property tax deals to attract new companies to their city.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:37 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
When you have a company making a profit the tax deduction is a reduction in the taxes you actually pay. If a company fails to make a profit in a year then that deduction can be used in another year.

Like you said: making a PROFIT. You can't even calculate profit if you don't take into account EXPENSES.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 10):
What about income tax? VAT? Property tax?

Those deductions have nothing to do with VAT and property tax. Income tax on business is based on their profits.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 10):
Of course it's a tax break.

Sorry, it simply isn't. Take some accounting and tax classes and come back to the discussion.
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Flighty
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:06 pm

It sounds like a great invention. But there is no reason we need to give patent protection to these government funded inventions, usually created by public labs or by substantial public money.

It's people like me (corporate type people) who ruin the American healthcare market. That is why I refuse to take a role in the health insurance or drug industries. These industries should not exist. They are parasite industries with terrible incentives.

As India does, we should publicly fund a great deal of research according to a meritocratic process. Once discoveries are made, make them freely available to all (without any drug or genetic patents).
 
Ken777
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:25 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
These industries should not exist. They are parasite industries with terrible incentives.

The problem isn't that these companies exist, the problem is that we have an environment where they have gone out of control in their money grab. We can't return to the ethical environment that we had in the 50s and 60s, which basically means we need to look at intelligent alternatives. Core health care funded by a tax is one way to bring some sanity back to health care. That doesn't stop insurance companies from making a nice profit on the "extras", just like they do in countries like Australia.

As for the pharma charging like a wounded bull in the US and a lot more reasonably in other countries, windfall taxes are one alternative, as is requiring a cost ceiling for medications based on government funded research. That doesn't stop companies from recovering their true costs, but it can stop the rip-offs like we see in this situation.
 
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:51 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
The problem isn't that these companies exist, the problem is that we have an environment where they have gone out of control in their money grab.



Pretty simple ...if the primary income steam for Pharma is the US government and its endless supply of cash ... then why not.? Big Pharma would prefer Universal health care ...its easier than really competing , all you have to do is convince a few greedy bureaucrats and you can make billions .

The liberals and RINOS want it badly ..they know they can steal from big pharma and pad the old coffers come election time. These schemes that you uncovered are not by accident ...they want costs to go up so the Dem's can finally have full universal health care using greed as the vehicle. Nothing in the health care bill past last year lowers cost ...it was not intended to do that it was intended to pave the way for single payer. Period.
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:56 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 17):
Nothing in the health care bill past last year lowers cost

Then you know something the CBO doesn't.

Oddly, in 100% of other countries with universal healthcare, the costs of drugs are much lower. But American conservatives think that there is something magical about the USA where what works in 100% of other places can't possibly work here. Not transit, not healthcare, not infrastructure spending, nope. We're magical!
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Ken777
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:24 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 17):
its easier than really competing , all you have to do is convince a few greedy bureaucrats and you can make billions .

From what I remember about the pharma business in Australia was that the companies had to deliver some very strong pricing to get listed for government funding. A $1,200 cost per dose "might" get accepted if the drug company could clearly demonstrate extraordinary high production costs. But a company trying to get $1,200 for a dose of Makena that has a $10 cost would not stand a chance. And it compounding pharmacies in Australia had been providing that medication for years (like in the US) then the Aussies would hopefully tell the drug company to shove it.

The US is where the pharma companies have it easier and that will continue until we get core care provided by a tax, not an insurance company.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:45 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 17):
Nothing in the health care bill past last year lowers cost ...it was not intended to do that it was intended to pave the way for single payer. Period.

Excuse me? What is this thinking that national healthcare insurance automatically means higher cost? Japan is one of the most expensive countries in the world and a similar round of testing and treatment I had there in 2009 cost 3x more when I had the same done here in January with full private coverage. Not only that but drugs are cheaper too despite heavy regulation and hardly any competition among pharmacies (there are basically three large national chains everyone uses). What gives?
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JJJ
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:50 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 14):
Income tax on business is based on their profits.

But it's not the only tax business pay.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 14):
Sorry, it simply isn't. Take some accounting and tax classes and come back to the discussion.

Profits are just an arithmetic operation between several other figures. A tax deduction can be calculated on any of their components, hence why my reply to this:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):
Taxes are paid on profits not revenues.

So, for example, the tax breaks granted to small business for providing health care to workers are not a tax break in your book?
 
AGM100
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:00 pm

I am talking about after we have single payer and the government becomes THE customer . That is the plan right now ...they want costs to go up inorder to basicaly force universal healthcare , and it is happening. Why are my employee insruance costs going up ??... It is counter to everything he said because Obama has not a clue of how the real world works .

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
Oddly, in 100% of other countries with universal healthcare, the costs of drugs are much lower. But American conservatives think that there is something magical about the USA where what works in 100% of other places can't possibly work here. Not transit, not healthcare, not infrastructure spending, nope. We're magical!
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 20):
I had there in 2009 cost 3x



The cost to who ? You as a individual paying it at the visit is not going to be the problem. What pharma bills the fed and fed in turn takes form us in taxes or better yet just deficit spends is the issue. Two things are going to happen ... the national health care system will be in deficit or our taxes are going to shoot up to cover it... either way it is a dead end in America.

Do you believe Pharma will make no profit after we have uni care ? See these leftist really believe pharma is going to just donate the drugs because its all for the good of the community kumbaya and all that . It will become the pharma industrial complex and then we will see the pricing based on political favouritism and bureaucratic opportunism.
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DocLightning
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:02 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
But a company trying to get $1,200 for a dose of Makena that has a $10 cost would not stand a chance

Let me make it quite clear.

The vial costs maybe 10¢. The box maybe 5¢. The printed insert 5¢. The drug itself would shock me if it cost 5¢. If they're gonna include a syringe of diluent, figure another 10¢.
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PPVRA
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:25 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 21):
Profits are just an arithmetic operation between several other figures. A tax deduction can be calculated on any of their components

Just about all those "components" are a form of expense which means just about all of it is "deductible" TO ARRIVE AT PROFIT or other equivalent terminology. Then you calculate your tax bill.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 21):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):
Taxes are paid on profits not revenues.

So, for example, the tax breaks granted to small business for providing health care to workers are not a tax break in your book?

Isn't this benefit an expense to the company? Don't expenses reduce profits?

[Edited 2011-03-31 08:49:51]
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JJJ
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:29 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 24):
Isn't this benefit an expense to the company? Don't expenses reduce profits?

So, going back to square 1, aren't tax breaks granted on R&D costs really tax breaks?

Because that's precisely what you said when Ken777 said this:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 6):
A $200 million cost will result in a $70,000,000 reduction in income taxes.
 
Ken777
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:05 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 22):
Why are my employee insruance costs going up ??.

Have you seen a year where health insurance costs have not gone up? Mine doubled during the first Bush/Cheney term.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
Let me make it quite clear.

I'm in agreement at that level. There are some productionoverhead costs, but I doubt if they are huge per dose,

And I'll agree that some drugs, like the SYNAGIS you mentioned, can be expensive to provide.

I believe that we need to balance the cost demands of pharma (and they do have legitimate costs, especially in the area of R&D) and the cost limitations of patients. Comparing US costs to the costs paid in other countries is an excellent method of finding the right balance that should be met without incurring windfall profit taxes or other disincentives.
 
AGM100
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:10 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
Comparing US costs to the costs paid in other countries is an excellent method of finding the right balance that should be met without incurring windfall profit taxes or other disincentives.



We don't need to compare anything ... McDermott say's it all in this clip. The central planners in Washington are the only ones who can keep costs down. Not doctors ... not Pharma ...and certainly not private citizens who if offered real choices would bring the costs down. How can any sane doctor listen to these democrats and not be offended .... amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gikqzQ-6R_k&feature=player_embedded
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Aaron747
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:30 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 22):
The cost to who ?

To everyone. 3x the cost is 3x the cost no matter who is paying and that's untenable. I received an itemized bill showing what my insurance paid out and it was effin' ridiculous. $3000 for blood work and some cardio testing in all. For virtually identical services in Japan two years ago I paid around $300 out of pocket. The universal insurance there is 70/30, so that means the government picked up the tab for $700. That's a very expensive country with a highly regulated health care industry but the same shit was 3x more here. All I'm saying. There is no oversight to the overhead here whatsoever.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 22):
See these leftist really believe pharma is going to just donate the drugs because its all for the good of the community kumbaya and all that .

You lose me when you start with the kumbaya nonsense. My experience is with a different system overseas and I've seen triple payer can work. Not only does it work, but it works better than what I've experienced since being back in the states. Japanese pharma companies are still plenty profitable - they just doing it by charging $1K for something that costs $50 to make.
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PPVRA
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:11 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 25):
So, going back to square 1, aren't tax breaks granted on R&D costs really tax breaks?

Because that's precisely what you said when Ken777 said this:

You need to reread replies 8, 9 and 14.
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AGM100
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:36 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 28):
You lose me when you start with the kumbaya nonsense



Simple ..they make policy without thinking about the hard cold stark realities of running a mutli billion dollar pharmaceutical corporation. Or what it takes to become a heart surgeon ...a brain surgeon or a pediatrician. It costs money ... time and lots of hard hard work . For them its just a provision in the bill for "doctor fix" .. no problem ..just put a doctor fix in the bill for$ 300 billion and see...we care .

Be very clear ...the people making up this policy do not give a crap about your health ...its all about central control ,central planning and power. Power over the growing dependent class in America ... and that is something Japan does not seem to have allot of .
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Aaron747
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:55 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 30):
Simple ..they make policy without thinking about the hard cold stark realities of running a mutli billion dollar pharmaceutical corporation

We're obviously talking about pages of two different books here.
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DocLightning
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:14 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 30):

Be very clear ...the people making up this policy do not give a crap about your health ...its all about central control ,central planning and power.
(Duh, I don't hold the copyright, but it's obviously public domain given the number of copies that exist on the web)


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LAXintl
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:30 am

Seems to me KV Pharmaceutical‘s is doing exactly right by marketing and pricing their drug.

The whole point of a for-profit business offering service or product is to maximize the earnings or value one can drive from it. So I don’t see why KV should be blamed or ashamed for charging a price the market bears.
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:37 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):

The whole point of a for-profit business offering service or product is to maximize the earnings or value one can drive from it. So I don’t see why KV should be blamed or ashamed for charging a price the market bears.

Healthcare is not a simple "market." It is in India, yes. In India, they will walk away from you and let you die if you can't afford treatment. And for this reason, drugs are all far cheaper in India than they are in the US. Furthermore, I know of no other "free-market" industries in which the primary actors (in this case the doctors) are operating under oath.

As long as there is going to be 3rd-party payors and as long as the government is going to be part of it, it is not a free-market system in the slightest and to think of it as such. Abusing the patent system by dangling a life-saving drug over the lives of innocent babies is not the way that free-market capitalism is supposed to work. It brings back visions of the meatpacking and steel industries of yesteryear.
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LAXintl
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:33 am

So you want a manufacturers of goods such as pharmaceuticals to forgo an opportunity to make some money on their products due to some altruistic motive?

Common get real. We live in a world where money pays bills for corporations, not some make you feel good social conscience.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:23 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 35):
So you want a manufacturers of goods such as pharmaceuticals to forgo an opportunity to make some money on their products due to some altruistic motive?

First, yes. It's healthcare.

Second, it's not THEIR product, is it? Until they somehow abused the laws and got a patent on something they didn't even invent it was readily available for $10/dose. Once they proved it worked (which everyone already knew), they got a patent and now can charge absurd prices.

There's no defense for that.
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JJJ
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:50 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 29):
You need to reread replies 8, 9 and 14.

No matter how times I read them "Tax breaks on R&D costs aren't really tax breaks because taxes are paid on profits" is absolute, premium quality BS.
 
N867DA
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:27 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
Seems to me KV Pharmaceutical‘s is doing exactly right by marketing and pricing their drug.

People are going to die so they can make money off a product that a panhandler could have afforded two years ago. You see nothing wrong with this? This mentality is what is wrong with IP law and the health care industry in general.
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Pyrex
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:31 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 37):

No matter how times I read them "Tax breaks on R&D costs aren't really tax breaks because taxes are paid on profits" is absolute, premium quality BS.

Again, how is it "tax breaks"? The word tax break implies some special tax treatment, which is not at all the case. If you know even the slightest thing about accounting, R&D (which is mostly just payroll anyway) is an operating expense for a pharmaceutical company so it should be removed from revenues to get to pre-tax profit, just as cost of inventory is removed for retailers. That is why it is called an INCOME tax, and not a REVENUE tax.

Now if you want to move in the direction of a flat tax based on sales, fine with me. In that case, yes, you would have a valid point, But until then what we have does not resemble a tax break in the slightest.
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windy95
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:01 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
Second, it's not THEIR product, is it? Until they somehow abused the laws and got a patent on something they didn't even invent it was readily available for $10/dose. Once they proved it worked (which everyone already knew), they got a patent and now can charge absurd prices.

Doc is this the case of a drug being made for one problem but then they find it has another use? Also do you think that drugs are overmarketed and does that add a ton to the price?
 
AGM100
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:35 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 31):
We're obviously talking about pages of two different books here.



Why ... the discussion is about the government doing something about greedy pharma right ? What the current administration and the left wants is a compelte take over ... single payer is governemnt run healthcare. They tell you what you need .

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Oooh! Be afraid.



We will all be afraid when every election , our basic health care is used as political issue. More funding for the HCS , Medicare , SS , and whatever other programs they can dream up are going broke and the bureaucrats managers are quite. The system will over time degrade as budgets go up and down .... the only ones winning will be the politicians using it to retain power for the party.

I would prefer to take care of it my self ...work to afford my own insurance and be able to choose providers , plans and where I spend my money.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
LAXintl
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:20 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
First, yes. It's healthcare.

Millions do not invest in health-care to see a zero return on our monies. Its a for-profit business, and its expected companies to do all possible to generate good returns

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
There's no defense for that.

They were clever, and managed to got a patent on something.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 38):
You see nothing wrong with this?

No. They own a product in essence and are selling it at a price the market will bear. It has a value, because there is a demand for it.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Ken777
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:26 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 27):
How can any sane doctor listen to these democrats and not be offended .... amazing.

How can any doctor or reasonable American look at the Republican/Health Insurance approach and not be offended . . . amazing!

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 30):
Simple ..they make policy without thinking about the hard cold stark realities of running a mutli billion dollar pharmaceutical corporation. Or what it takes to become a heart surgeon ...a brain surgeon or a pediatrician. It costs money ... time and lots of hard hard work . For them its just a provision in the bill for "doctor fix" .. no problem ..just put a doctor fix in the bill for$ 300 billion and see...we care .

Be very clear ...the people making up this policy do not give a crap about your health ...its all about central control ,central planning and power. Power over the growing dependent class in America ... and that is something Japan does not seem to have allot of .

Companies are able to be very successful in the pharma industry without ripping off the patients. Like other cost intensive industries (from oil to chip makers) the volume is the core support for success. International drug companies who act in an ethical manner have demonstrated profits are possible. If it wasn't then there would be no companies in the industry.

And, yes, it does cost money to develop someone into a skilled medical professional. And a lot of that money is in the form of tax dollars directed to education at all levels, including university and medical training. All public medical related training is supported with tax dollars, private universities and medical schools receive direct funding via grants of various types as well as research funding. And then, of course, there are private donations, many of which help fund those medical educations.

And, of course, that heart surgeon or brain surgeon had to start somewhere. The donated cadaver in the anatomy class is the first "volunteer" they work on. Training in public or indigent hospitals is where the experience and skills are developed. You don't go from med school graduate to world class heart surgeon in 3 months of residency.

The Doc Fix issue should be taken care of permanently. The law that requires it be addressed was more than ignorant and the costs for this year is a simple demonstration of how dumb and deceptive the politicians have been.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
Seems to me KV Pharmaceutical‘s is doing exactly right by marketing and pricing their drug.

you are one of the few who agree with them - they are backing down rather fast today with lower costs and additional ways to cut costs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation.../04/01/AFpP9hGC_story.html?hpid=z2

Their initial actions may, however, bring about a change in the laws that are "protecting" the company. The Republicans in the House certainly won't man up to look into this, but the Democrats in the Senate might just take a hard, public look at the company's actions - and the need to change the laws.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 35):
So you want a manufacturers of goods such as pharmaceuticals to forgo an opportunity to make some money on their products due to some altruistic motive?

No one said they can't make a profit. What has caused a storm is that they are ripping the patients off with grossly overcharging for a product that was previously available for $10 to $20. Do you really believe that a $1,200 price tag for a $10 to $20 drug that can save lives is realistic? Do you really support those bums?

We obviously need changes to our orphan laws, providing reasonable profits and also providing clear punishment for those who rip off the public trust in this area.
 
AGM100
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:45 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 43):
How can any doctor or reasonable American look at the Republican/Health Insurance approach and not be offended . . . amazing!



Offended that they have to get a job and take care of themselves ... that's about it. The whole reason costs are going up is because the providers know the golden goose in the end pays the bills. Just like housing ... when the fed backs up everything providers need not worry ... they know they can not fail.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Ken777
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:09 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 42):
They were clever, and managed to got a patent on something.

They were also "clever" and managed to get sufficient public attention and a loud enough outcry to make them reverse course rather fast, hopefully generate a Senate inquiry and manage to clearly demonstrate a strong need to change the law to avoid the unethical rip-offs like this in the orphan drug market.

I don't think they were that clever.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:26 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 41):
single payer is governemnt run healthcare

Single-payer doesn't work so well. Triple payer, such as what Japan, HK, and Singapore are using, does. More backup is never a bad thing.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 42):
Its a for-profit business, and its expected companies to do all possible to generate good returns

It's also expected that companies providing health care services will be reasonably ethical, lest they destroy their standing in the marketplace.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 42):
They were clever, and managed to got a patent on something.

This is a comfortable attitude until it's you that needs the $30K in drugs that cost $50 to make.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
windy95
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:01 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 46):
Single-payer doesn't work so well. Triple payer, such as what Japan, HK, and Singapore are using, does. More backup is never a bad thing.




How does the prescription drugs system work there? Is R & D subsidised by the governement's or the cost's? Or is it just regulation?
 
pilotsmoe
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:02 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 35):


So you want a manufacturers of goods such as pharmaceuticals to forgo an opportunity to make some money on their products due to some altruistic motive?

That's why we need government regulations
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Drug Cost Increases From $10 To $1,500

Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:00 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 42):

They were clever, and managed to got a patent on something.

That would not be possible in any other industry.

It's as if Boeing suddenly patented the wing and then prohibited any other manufacturer from making wings... and then charged $10Bn per aircraft.

Seriously, it's a valid comparison.
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"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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