PPVRA
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Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:23 pm

. . . because of their taxes.

"Several tech companies, including Twitter, Zynga and Yelp, have told city officials that San Francisco's tax code may make it financially unfeasible for them to stay in the city."

Now the city is considering a tax break, but only for politically connected companies in the hip and politically-approved tech industry:

"The temporary tax break would apply to technology companies that are located anywhere in San Francisco, have 100 employees or more and are not traded on a public stock exchange."

If you are not in this politically favored class or caste, you're not equal and don't get this benefit.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...03/28/BAI71IKTQP.DTL#ixzz1I7F0bfZ8
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CometII
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:41 pm

This is a race to the bottom. While I support lower taxes, the world is now exactly where corporations want it to be: governments fawning to give them tax havens (or we move to Bermuda), lowering wages (or we move to China), lowering benefits (or we move to Mississippi)... basically lowering everything that is their liability.

This is happening all over the world, corporations are holding hostage workers and regions. I'm all for business, but this attitude makes me sick.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:50 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Thread starter):
If you are not in this politically favored class or caste, you're not equal and don't get this benefit.

Interesting take on it. The named companies are highly visible and are widely expected to have extremely lucrative IPOs. I doubt the corner pizza man has similar clout worthy of a closer look.

For all the ragging on SF tax codes, why are Wells Fargo and Bechtel still headquartered there? Why do Barclays and JP Morgan maintain large regional offices there?

In any case this is not necessarily wise for cities to chase presence in favor of tax incentives. San Ramon, a tiny affluent suburb 30 miles east of SF, did the same to lure Chevron Corp. to move their HQ about a decade ago. Now that city is deep in the red. Was that a wise move?
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Dreadnought
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:10 pm

Quoting CometII (Reply 1):
governments fawning to give them tax havens (or we move to Bermuda), lowering wages (or we move to China), lowering benefits (or we move to Mississippi)... basically lowering everything that is their liability.

Don't you personally have those same freedoms? If your hometown is terribly run and overridden with crime, you can move somewhere else? If your job doesn't pay you well enough or treat you well enough, you can quit and work someplace else, right? Why shouldn't companies have the same rights? At least these companies provided fair warning - most of the time the City/State would find out about a dissatisfied company moving out of the area in the newspapers, and here they have a chance to rectify the problem.

But they have taken the typical response for a liberal government. Instead of taking this as a message that maybe their taxes are getting too high across the board, they are keeping the bad practices and simply making exceptions. Kinda like Obamacare and the millions of people that have already been exempted from it because politically connected folks asked for it.

So much for equality of treatment under the law...
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MaverickM11
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:32 pm

No surprise--if you keep trying to kill business, eventually they'll take a hint and move elsewhere. Not sure why anyone would base themselves in CA these days...

Quoting PPVRA (Thread starter):
"The temporary tax break would apply to technology companies that are located anywhere in San Francisco, have 100 employees or more and are not traded on a public stock exchange."

So not Virgin America ?
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Aaron747
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:49 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
Not sure why anyone would base themselves in CA these days...

There's no replacing the pool of talented tech workers and entrepreneurs who populate the San Francisco peninsula. If it wasn't an issue, Oracle, Google, HP, Apple, et al would have left already. The other significant factor is the tech-focused venture capital firms that are firmly rooted in Palo Alto/Mountain View and haven't budged since the 1970s. You don't just walk away from the people with the experience and know-how to bankroll to bring your tech dreams to fruition. They know the business, they can differentiate good from bad, and they have very deep pockets.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:25 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5):
There's no replacing the pool of talented tech workers and entrepreneurs who populate the San Francisco peninsula

I disagree; they are highly mobile, highly motivated, and probably not fixed to any particular corner of the planet. If the next hot company is in AUS, BOI, or DTW they'll go there pretty easily. Their company loyalty is famously ephemeral, and I don't think they're any more tied to the location. For now though the area does have a critical mass, but it can only take so much abuse from the city/state.
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CometII
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:35 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
Don't you personally have those same freedoms? If your hometown is terribly run and overridden with crime, you can move somewhere else? If your job doesn't pay you well enough or treat you well enough, you can quit and work someplace else, right? Why shouldn't companies have the same rights? At least these companies provided fair warning - most of the time the City/State would find out about a dissatisfied company moving out of the area in the newspapers, and here they have a chance to rectify the problem.

They have the same right as any private entity. But when was the last time I had the option to ''get a 200% raise or I'm packing up to Luxembourg'', or ''get me my income tax scrapped or I'm heading to the Caymans''... No individual can really do that. So shoudn't you and me have the same rights as corporations?

They should be able to choose to set up business wherever they feel is better for them, but within certain boundaries of expectations... they already have the advantage of moving out of the country altogether to pay cents to the hour across the ocean, at least pay taxes here at home and do not ask for all these loopholes and concessions from municipal governments that are so desperate for jobs. That's just wrong, like holding food in front of a hungry child and asking for a back massage before giving it to him.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:42 pm

Quoting CometII (Reply 7):
So shoudn't you and me have the same rights as corporations?

You're not a corporation. And if you had your own corporation you could move to wherever you want. Apples to oranges.
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Aaron747
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:47 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
For now

No, try since IBM, NASA, and Lockheed set up shop in the valley in the 1960s, followed by HP, Intel, Apple, SGI, and many other luminaries. The local brain trust has been well established for decades and is very much tied to location. The abuse you speak of has been present since the beginnings of the local real estate spikes in the mid-1980s.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
they are highly mobile

Historically this has not been the case in the industry. There are clusters around the country, yes, but established companies in the biz do not change physical location so often. How many times has Microsoft, Western Digital or Dell moved?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
If the next hot company is in AUS, BOI, or DTW they'll go there pretty easily

Individual workers, yes. En masse? No.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
I don't think they're any more tied to the location

I disagree. Having grown up in the area, there is a significant proportion of market participants who are locally born and bred, to say nothing of the fact that significant employment remains in the region.

[Edited 2011-03-30 15:48:57]
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canoecarrier
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:02 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5):

There's no replacing the pool of talented tech workers and entrepreneurs who populate the San Francisco peninsula.

Sure. The machinists at Boeing thought that here in Washington then Boeing looked to South Carolina to start a second 787 line. And, I know people a lot of people that work for Boeing that would and have moved if the company asks them to to SC or KS. The anti-business attitude here in Washington is not as bad as California, but its certainly not good. If I was starting a new company it wouldn't be in WA or CA.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
No surprise--if you keep trying to kill business, eventually they'll take a hint and move elsewhere. Not sure why anyone would base themselves in CA these days...

Completely agree. Everything costs more in California. At some point every company has it's tipping point for costs. Doesn't matter what market you're in.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:16 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Historically this has not been the case in the industry.
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Individual workers, yes. En masse? No.

That may be the case in the past, but the days of finding a job where you live are fading fast, versus living where the work is. I think this tech generation is much more mobile than any of its predecessors, particularly after multiple downturns.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Having grown up in the area, there is a significant proportion of market participants who are locally born and bred, to say nothing of the fact that significant employment remains in the region.

It's no doubt California's to lose, but along with the exodus of other employers from the state, it would surprise no one if tech were to follow.
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comorin
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:29 pm

Chill, people. If you read the OP link you will note that the issue is with San Francisco's odd tax that affects companies and their employees who are about to do an IPO. It's a very legitimate concern for the likes of Twitter and their employees. The City of SF is dealing with this in a rational way, and any reports of the demise of Silicon Valley are premature.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:02 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 10):
If I was starting a new company it wouldn't be in WA or CA.

Unless of course you were an entrepreneur starting a tech company that was going to need significant VC. In which case you would want to be located near people familiar with what you were trying to do and how to fund it.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
it would surprise no one if tech were to follow.

It would only be surprising if everyone split while the VC firms stayed put.
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mham001
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:16 am

Quoting comorin (Reply 12):
The City of SF is dealing with this in a rational way, and any reports of the demise of Silicon Valley are premature.

SF is not Silicon Valley and never was. SF was late to the tech game and only rose to minor prominence during the tech bubble. The question is, what were these companies thinking opening up shop in SF in the first place?
 
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STT757
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:47 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 14):
The question is, what were these companies thinking opening up shop in SF in the first place?

Better take-out in San Francisco then in Mountainview.
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fridgmus
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:13 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
In any case this is not necessarily wise for cities to chase presence in favor of tax incentives. San Ramon, a tiny affluent suburb 30 miles east of SF, did the same to lure Chevron Corp. to move their HQ about a decade ago. Now that city is deep in the red. Was that a wise move?

I grew up in Dublin, right next to San Ramon, and one of their problems is that their incompetent City Manager is being paid over $300,000.00 per year. Heard that on the radio and newspapers when I was home on holiday. San Ramon is very small and cannot afford salaries like that. They need some competent management at ALL levels.

I love California, I just wish I could afford to live there!
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CometII
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:20 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):

You're not a corporation. And if you had your own corporation you could move to wherever you want. Apples to oranges.

No, I guess I am not. I have fewer rights and less influence in my government.
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:21 am

The cities in CA are making it more and more difficult to start/maintain a business. I hear customers all of the time complain about the crap the cities make them do and the loop holes/fees they have to go through year in and year out. I don't blame these guys. Go to a city and state that appreciate your tax $.

If I ran a business CA would be one of my least picks as a location (only from a business standpoint). It's just not worth it!
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Dreadnought
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:39 am

Quoting CometII (Reply 7):
But when was the last time I had the option to ''get a 200% raise or I'm packing up to Luxembourg'', or ''get me my income tax scrapped or I'm heading to the Caymans''... No individual can really do that.

Sure you have those options. A ticket to either one of those countries costs less than $1000. Who says you can't leave? We aren't in a communist country.
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N867DA
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:07 am

The problem with America today is that you're as free as Wal-Mart wants you to be!  
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Superfly
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:33 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
I doubt the corner pizza man has similar clout worthy of a closer look.


Are you kidding? That man sells MEAT!      
Think of all of those carbohydrates and saturated fats that Michelle Obama wants us to stop eating.

Remember the controversy surrounding Ike's Place sandwich shop. A restaurant forced by the city to close it's doors because it was too successful.
A self-made businessman loses his business and 50 people lost their job as a result. But of course those are just irrelevant working class stiffs that don't satisfy the politically-approved tech industry.


http://www.baycitizen.org/food/story...es-place-closing-becomes-campaign/


The city didn't make any effort to save the Parisian bread factory, Wonder bread and Hostess from closing their factories in San Francisco. 650 jobs (all union) were lost.
I'm sure a developer wanted to convert that property in to a luxury live work/loft or high-end condos with a few 'affordable housing' units set aside at only $900,000.00 for a 1 bedroom.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
I disagree; they are highly mobile, highly motivated, and probably not fixed to any particular corner of the planet. If the next hot company is in AUS, BOI, or DTW they'll go there pretty easily. Their company loyalty is famously ephemeral, and I don't think they're any more tied to the location.


Not so sure about that. The mild weather and endless amounts of outdoor activities, diversity are some of the main attractions to the San Francisco Bay Area.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
Better take-out in San Francisco then in Mountainview.


That is true but Mountain View had an In-N-Out burger years before San Francisco.  
Quoting fridgmus (Reply 16):
I grew up in Dublin, right next to San Ramon, and one of their problems is that their incompetent City Manager is being paid over $300,000.00 per year.


YIKES! That's more than what big city mayors earn.
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DocLightning
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:39 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):

I disagree; they are highly mobile, highly motivated, and probably not fixed to any particular corner of the planet.

Bull. They have families, friends, and lives, they love living here (it's easy to love), and they really don't want to move. On top of that, there's Stanford, which houses arguably the world's most prestigious engineering and computer science departments. (Oh, and there's that state school across the Bay, but they aren't worth mentioning   ).

That's also not something that these companies ignore.
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Superfly
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:42 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
(Oh, and there's that state school across the Bay, but they aren't worth mentioning ).

Cal State University East Bay?
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DocLightning
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:57 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):

Cal State University East Bay?

Yeah, that one. It's in some hippie commune town where all the buildings are made of pot or something...
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Superfly
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:05 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):
Yeah, that one. It's in some hippie commune town where all the buildings are made of pot or something...

No. Cal State University East Bay used to be called Cal State University Hayward.
You're thinking of UC Berkeley which has smart students like Stanford but cost less than half as much.  
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seb146
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:16 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
If your hometown is terribly run and overridden with crime, you can move somewhere else?

No, because jobs are scarce and low paying and housing is sky high, so it will actually cost more to live someplace else.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
If your job doesn't pay you well enough or treat you well enough, you can quit and work someplace else, right?

No, because there are so few jobs available.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
You're not a corporation. And if you had your own corporation you could move to wherever you want. Apples to oranges.

Acutally, the SCOTUS already ruled that corporations are people, so there goes that myth.

I don't understand why companies want to be in cities anyway. Rent is expensive and getting to the main office is so crowded and such a time consuming headache. Oracle has offices in Redwood City, south of San Francisco. Easier to get to than downtown and cheaper, too. The only reason the city wants companies to stay is tax revenue generated by the workers. When the workers buy something, there is sales tax generated. Not enough to off-set the tax break the city gives to the company, though.

Tech companies should move to the North Bay (Novato, Santa Rosa, Petaluma) because there is more land, lower natural tax rates and a willing work force.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:45 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 26):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
You're not a corporation. And if you had your own corporation you could move to wherever you want. Apples to oranges.

Acutally, the SCOTUS already ruled that corporations are people, so there goes that myth.

I knew that, I was referring in a more literal sense rather than a legal sense. You can have your company move to a foreign city without you having to move (but you can still work for them.) A bit different, IMO, than a person since they cannot live across the world from where they work.

Idk, I have more of a pro-business bias, probably is putting me at odds with many people.
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Superfly
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:19 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 26):
No, because jobs are scarce and low paying and housing is sky high, so it will actually cost more to live someplace else.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 26):
No, because there are so few jobs available.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 26):
Acutally, the SCOTUS already ruled that corporations are people, so there goes that myth.



        
Well said on all three.

However, I strongly disagree with this;

Quoting seb146 (Reply 26):
I don't understand why companies want to be in cities anyway. Rent is expensive and getting to the main office is so crowded and such a time consuming headache. Oracle has offices in Redwood City, south of San Francisco. Easier to get to than downtown and cheaper, too. The only reason the city wants companies to stay is tax revenue generated by the workers. When the workers buy something, there is sales tax generated. Not enough to off-set the tax break the city gives to the company, though.

Tech companies should move to the North Bay (Novato, Santa Rosa, Petaluma) because there is more land, lower natural tax rates and a willing work force.


No, no, no and NO!   
Large companies ESPECIALLY politically-approved tech industry companies should locate downtown San Francisco. All of those tall buildings should be occupied by tech companies and I wish the Rincon Tower(s) were business offices instead of residential.
That is the GREEN thing to do. Those buildings are already located along BART and MUNI lines. People don't need to drive to work. There are so many restaurants, cafes and other stores located there. I can't stand the 'campus' atmosphere of Oracle, Google, Apple and many other tech companies down the Peninsula. Not to mention the traffic is even worse getting to those places.
From San Francisco to the Google headquarters is a 2.5 hour drive during rush hour even though it's only 30 miles away. CalTrain doesn't stop near the Google headquarters. You have to wait for a shuttle bus. Same for all of the other tech giants. Those office park campuses generate a lot of traffic and it's impossible to carpool with so many people living in different areas and working different hours. Each office park is surrounded by huge parking lots with hundreds of cars commuting from all over the Bay area. Makes a lot more sense if they were in a high-rise downtown and employees took BART to work. With the extra ridership, fares probably wouldn't need to increase either.
Damn I'm starting to sounds like a treehugger again.   
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RayChuang
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:03 pm

I think San Francisco better find a way to keep Twitter and Zynga in the city because there's plentiful office space in the southern Bay Area that Twitter and Zynga could easily move to.   I cite for example the large amount of empty office space just north of McCarthy Ranch shopping center in Milpitas, CA, which could accommodate Twitter in no time flat if necessary.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:04 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):

You're thinking of UC Berkeley which has smart students like Stanford but cost less than half as muc

And has a shitty football team, to boot.  
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MaverickM11
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:16 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 21):
Not so sure about that. The mild weather and endless amounts of outdoor activities, diversity are some of the main attractions to the San Francisco Bay Area.

That's true for any number of cities, but regardless it doesn't matter, If it did, there wouldn't be an endless parade of full moving trucks heading out of California for some of the hotter and more humid parts of Texas.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
It would only be surprising if everyone split while the VC firms stayed put.

Those are two industries that really have no reason to be fixed to any particular place.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
They have families, friends, and lives, they love living here (it's easy to love),

Again, true for anywhere. Any city will tell you they're above average and their populace loves living there.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
On top of that, there's Stanford, which houses arguably the world's most prestigious engineering and computer science departments

That tends to be MIT
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Superfly
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:17 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
And has a shitty football team, to boot.

Yes but the bear is way cooler than a damn tree!   

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
That's true for any number of cities, but regardless it doesn't matter, If it did, there wouldn't be an endless parade of full moving trucks heading out of California for some of the hotter and more humid parts of Texas.

Those people aren't enthusiastic about Texas as a place to live. They're just happy to find work. I know several people that relocated to Texas for work.
It's not the most scenic place in the world.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:35 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 32):
Those people aren't enthusiastic about Texas as a place to live.

I can only assume you've never met a Texan. Or a Californian transplant in Colorado for that matter.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Superfly
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:44 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
I can only assume you've never met a Texan. Or a Californian transplant in Colorado for that matter.

Most folks I know in Texas and Colorado are California transplants.
Colorado at least has the Rockies, world class ski resorts and excellent mountain biking.
Texas? Well they have good steak.
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goblin211
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:06 pm

Companies will still be in SF no matter what. when it comes down to it, why would that great city be so naive and let them walk? the reason is because they aren't naive and will come up with some kind of compromise. This really isn't an issue.
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Aaron747
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:23 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 14):
The question is, what were these companies thinking opening up shop in SF in the first place?

Twitter was going to rent in the Mid-Market area, which actually has far cheaper rents than much of the peninsula. In recent years (going back to the before the tech bubble) there has been quite a reverse commute phenomenon in which many tech workers actually reside in SF and commute to the suburbs.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
If it did, there wouldn't be an endless parade of full moving trucks heading out of California for some of the hotter and more humid parts of Texas

I know very few native Bay Area residents who have relocated - maybe 20 out of my graduating class in high school by the informal survey I took at our 10 year reunion. Some have certainly moved within the state, but out of state, as I say is a distinct minority. I have no data, but anecdotally I would say many of those who have moved elsewhere were already transplants to California to begin with.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
Those are two industries that really have no reason to be fixed to any particular place

Other than the fact they have stayed for more than 50 years of course.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
Again, true for anywhere

Fantasy. The fact that the SF Bay Area has maintained a more or less stable population of ~7 million (it has grown from ~6 in the 1980s actually) despite housing prices ranging from 35-70% higher than the rest of the country says something. It has been and remains a highly desirable place to live that carries a palpable entrepreneurial zeitgeist for anything related to software and the internet.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
Any city will tell you they're above average and their populace loves living there.

Yeah but not any city/metro has hundreds of miles of spectacular shoreline, world-class skiing and boarding, world-famous surfing, thousands of miles of hiking trails, award-winning wineries, top-rated multicultural eateries, five national parks within a few hours' drive, and incredible juxtaposition of urban development and natural scenery. And as locals know, the microclimates are an added bonus. Live in the city and want to warm up 30 degrees in the summer? Drive 30 minutes east. Live in the suburbs and want to cool down? Drive 30 minutes to the City or the coast. For people who value such things, it's worth the price of residency.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:36 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 26):
ech companies should move to the North Bay (Novato, Santa Rosa, Petaluma)

Those cites are losing businesses by the week for the same reason.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 32):
Those people aren't enthusiastic about Texas as a place to live. They're just happy to find work.

I know you are not a TX fan, but TX is a fantastic place to live and work. Now living in CA for 5 years, I'd take Texas over CA 9 times out of 10.
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Aaron747
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:49 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 36):
I have no data, but anecdotally I would say many of those who have moved elsewhere were already transplants to California to begin with.

Case in point:

Quoting aa61hvy (Reply 37):
Now living in CA for 5 years, I'd take Texas over CA 9 times out of 10.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:00 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
Most folks I know in Texas and Colorado are California transplants.

Exactly

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
Colorado at least has the Rockies, world class ski resorts and excellent mountain biking.
Texas? Well they have good steak.

In both states you have some of the more diehard fans I've ever met, both locals and transplants.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 36):
Other than the fact they have stayed for more than 50 years of course.

As I've said, they're CA's to lose, but CA has lost quite a lot already, including a lot of the film industry, which has been around for a lot longer than 50 years.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 36):
I have no data, but anecdotally I would say many of those who have moved elsewhere were already transplants to California to begin with.

So everyone working for tech/venture capital are CA natives?  
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:31 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 39):
including a lot of the film industry, which has been around for a lot longer than 50 years


Compared to e-business, the film industry has tremendous fixed costs in terms of assets, union labor, materials, etc. The costs of location shooting have forced much of that activity to occur elsewhere.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 39):
So everyone working for tech/venture capital are CA natives?

Huh?? How in the world did you infer that? You're talking about trucks heading to Austin, and I'm simply suggesting a lot of those folks likely were transplants to begin with. The implicit suggestion there is that mobile tech workers you speak of had already moved to the Bay Area for work and are going where the work is/was. Among the people I know who are Bay Area natives, they generally stay in the area and change employers rather than relocating.
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DocLightning
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:09 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 32):

Yes but the bear is way cooler than a damn tree!

You don't know the Tree. Our Tree >> Bear. See, Stanford's tradition is "Be Wacky." The Weenies' tradition is "Act like a typical state school."

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):

That tends to be MIT
http://www.greguide.com/comps.html

Nope. Not so much.   (Actually, the two are pretty much equal. But you'll rarely see MIT's CS department flatly outrank Stanford's. Tie, sure, but not outrank.)

There's a reason the companies have their HQ's here and then have large branch offices in Boston and not vice-versa.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 36):

Twitter was going to rent in the Mid-Market area, which actually has far cheaper rents than much of the peninsula. In recent years (going back to the before the tech bubble) there has been quite a reverse commute phenomenon in which many tech workers actually reside in SF and commute to the suburbs.

A friend of mine basically runs the section of Twitter that looks for people like terrorists and drug lords using Twitter to coordinate their operations. He lives just up the hill from me and has a 10 minute commute to work. He also makes more than I do. And he gets unlimited vacation time. I hate him.  
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MaverickM11
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:20 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 40):
the film industry has tremendous fixed costs in terms of assets, union labor, materials, etc.

Those are all things that are also barriers to moving; the film industry has a lot more tying it down to a specific region than venture capital or internet firms, which can easily exist anywhere.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 40):
I'm simply suggesting a lot of those folks likely were transplants to begin with. The implicit suggestion there is that mobile tech workers you speak of had already moved to the Bay Area for work and are going where the work is/was.

If the locals don't ever leave, and the area firms are staffed mostly by transplants, how does that support the case that they're less likely to leave?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 41):
Nope. Not so much.

Most rankings show Carnegie Mellon as the #1 CS school, although this one shows MIT. I've never seen Stanford at the top of any Engineering list. They're both fine schools, however I don't think the location of either has too much sway as to where internet startups are located. There's no comparable equivalent in Seattle, for example.
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandre...best-colleges/rankings/engineering
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fraspotter
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:35 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 32):
Yes but the bear is way cooler than a damn tree!

You do know that the Stanford Tree is only the mascot for the band right?  
Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
Colorado at least has the Rockies, world class ski resorts and excellent mountain biking.
Texas? Well they have good steak

We may not have skiing, but if you claim that Texas doesn't have excellent mountain biking, hiking and other outdoor activities, you've clearly never been here...   and the awesome thing is that much of that is within an easy distance of the tech scene which is the Austin/Round Rock area... You ever hear of Enchanted Rock State Park? Beautiful area... thinking of proposing to my girlfriend there soon when I finally have the money to buy a ring. Hiking and camping are some of our favorite activities.  
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Aaron747
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:24 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 42):
than venture capital or internet firms, which can easily exist anywhere.

Again, historically not the case. Look up the VC firms that are most active in the tech sector, and you will see very few located outside of CA. It's obviously a symbiotic relationship.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 42):
If the locals don't ever leave, and the area firms are staffed mostly by transplants, how does that support the case that they're less likely to leave?

Because the entrepreneurial spirit of the place can't be beat. If you look at relevant players in the industry, from long-timers like HP and Intel to 80s market entrants like Apple and Sun Micro to those that have become prominent recently like Nvidia, Google, Adobe, eBay, Yahoo, EA etc - virtually all of them with a few notable exceptions (Steve Jobs was born in SF) were founded and run by people not from the area. The common thread is a lot of them were Berkeley or Stanford or SJSU grads. That, combined with the access to market specific VC capital, has kept these people hanging around.

Question: what attracted people like Larry Ellison, Sergey Brin, Andy Grove, Eric Schmidt, David Packard, et al to the region? Why don't they move the businesses they built that have thrived in the area? Mark Zuckerberg is originally from NY and attended Harvard. Why would he choose to get Facebook up and running in Palo Alto? Aren't there cheaper places to start a business? The answer is self-explanatory.

Bottom line, people like to slag the Bay Area for whatever reason. None of it changes the fact that a 30 mile strip of land between two freeways commands 1/3 of tech venture capital in the entire US. Obviously the business environment and CA taxes are not the overriding priority in the equation.

[Edited 2011-03-31 16:26:52]
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PPVRA
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:29 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 44):
Because the entrepreneurial spirit of the place can't be beat. If you look at relevant players in the industry, from long-timers like HP and Intel to 80s market entrants like Apple and Sun Micro to those that have become prominent recently like Nvidia, Google, Adobe, eBay, Yahoo, EA etc - virtually all of them with a few notable exceptions (Steve Jobs was born in SF) were founded and run by people not from the area. The common thread is a lot of them were Berkeley or Stanford or SJSU grads. That, combined with the access to market specific VC capital, has kept these people hanging around.

Question: what attracted people like Larry Ellison, Sergey Brin, Andy Grove, Eric Schmidt, David Packard, et al to the region? Why don't they move the businesses they built that have thrived in the area? Mark Zuckerberg is originally from NY and attended Harvard. Why would he choose to get Facebook up and running in Palo Alto? Aren't there cheaper places to start a business? The answer is self-explanatory.

Bottom line, people like to slag the Bay Area for whatever reason. None of it changes the fact that a 30 mile strip of land between two freeways commands 1/3 of tech venture capital in the entire US. Obviously the business environment and CA taxes are not the overriding priority in the equation.

I think its the other way around: VC will follow knowledge. VC doesn't really have much of a choice - they have to be close to this knowledge pool because that's where the opportunity lies. If these engineers packed up and moved to Tripoli tomorrow, VC would follow.

Google et al stay there because of the deep technical pool the area offers.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:41 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 45):
I think its the other way around: VC will follow knowledge.

VC came to the valley in the late 1960s and what has followed is what you might call a symbiotic relationship.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 45):
Google et al stay there because of the deep technical pool the area offers.

Exactly the point I've been making - these companies are going nowhere.
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DocLightning
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:05 am

Quoting FRAspotter (Reply 43):

You do know that the Stanford Tree is only the mascot for the band right?

At least SOMEONE knows that.

Stanford University has no official mascot.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Okie
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:41 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
That's true for any number of cities, but regardless it doesn't matter, If it did, there wouldn't be an endless parade of full moving trucks heading out of California for some of the hotter and more humid parts of Texas


California Individual Income Tax Rate tops out at 10.3% which a lot of the big buck guys make.
Texas Individual Income Tax Rate tops out a 0.0%
That would be a pretty good incentive for someone in the higher echelon of a company or corporation to move especially since they would be the ones making those decisions.
I mean you could really travel to whatever venue you would like say if you made $1M having an extra $100,000.00 a year to spend on your vacations.

Corporation Taxes in California are 8.84%
Corporation Taxes in Texas are 0.0%
That is a pretty good premium to take off the bottom line that would be returned to investors or fed back in to the corporation for R & D or whatever just to say your corporation is in California

I see that Illinois has just raised their corporate tax rate to 9.5% add that to the Federal rate and you are looking at near 40% corporate tax rate. Which has got Caterpillar in an uproar. My contention for the last few years is to watch Caterpillar and John Deere. Less than 25% of what they produce stays in the US. They will not have much incentive to keep production here when the rest of the world has an average corporate 11% tax rate.

Okie
 
fraspotter
Posts: 1979
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RE: Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco

Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:52 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
On top of that, there's Stanford, which houses arguably the world's most prestigious engineering and computer science departments. (Oh, and there's that state school across the Bay, but they aren't worth mentioning ).
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 41):

Just a wild guess here, but are you a Stanford grad?   My cousin got his Doctorate at Berkeley but he was really hoping for Stanford. Their campus is really impressive...
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