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cpd
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The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:13 am

http://www.news.com.au/features/adfa...-rape/story-fn8eum6d-1226036914555

This issue has been simmering for quite some days now. How would you approach this - what would you do about it?

Should it have been kept quiet rather than becoming public knowledge? I've seen some people suggesting, perhaps sarcastically that the people involved should accept it and "harden up". Do you agree?

My own view is that this kind of behaviour must be addressed - and whatever is needed to be done must be done, even if that involves outside intervention - even if that tramples on traditionally held beliefs and ideas. But then I'm not part of the armed services, so what would I know.
 
Quokka
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:57 am

Given that offences may have been committed including possible breaches of the Surveillance Devices Act and others, it should certainly not have been swept under the carpet. It only became public knowledge because the old boys club did not wish to take action.

The fact that there still is a culture of hostility towards female soldiers should be of public concern. Here is what the Australia Defence Association's views on the capability of women are, "The other thing the feminists never justify in their arguments is would they be prepared to have women suffer disproportionate casualties compared to men just to satisfy their whims." So there we have it: women don't wish to serve because they have equal rights and responsibilities in a democratic society. They do it to satisfy a "whim". And this guy thinks there isn't a problem of culture with the armed forces? http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/12/3189104.htm
 
Kent350787
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:00 am

Another forum I frequent is a parenting forum. The view there amongst women currently serving and the partners of servicemen was that the rugby league culture is exponentially more respectful of women than the military culture - which, given the sex and rape scandals in rugby league is saying a lot.

How to change it, I don't know. Openess, education and a ruthless approach to infractions would be a start.
 
baroque
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:02 am

Quoting cpd (Thread starter):
Should it have been kept quiet rather than becoming public knowledge?
Quoting Quokka (Reply 1):
Given that offences may have been committed including possible breaches of the Surveillance Devices Act and others, it should certainly not have been swept under the carpet. It only became public knowledge because the old boys club did not wish to take action.

I think one of the girl's complaints was that the perpetrators were advertising it so she made it public to give her side of the story.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 2):
that the rugby league culture is exponentially more respectful of women than the military culture - which, given the sex and rape scandals in rugby league is saying a lot.

If it so, that would only be because of the disastrous publicity the rugby league has been attracting and measures taken to try to lower that.

Wonder if the military will receive their main penalty in the upcoming budget. Go to your corner and receive no extra funds for three years or until you can demonstrate you have changed. Very tempting!! They might find themselves up the Swannee River without a paddle.
 
Stealthz
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:56 am

Whilst the actions of the (insert expletive) that recorded and broadcast the activities between himself and "Kate" are reprehensible and without question he should be shown the gate, and hoping it slams him on the butt on the way out. The young lady in question is not completely above reproach either, she had additional disciplinary actions outstanding against her in addition to the fraternization offences of the event in question.
It is easy to blame "defence culture" for this episode but this group of young people had been at ADFA for 2 months, that is not time to become part of the culture*, their actions are a product of where they came from not where they are.. their schools, their environment and yes mum & dad Australia, their families.
If one is serious about a career as an officer in the ADF(or any military) one does not have disciplinary issues involving fraternization and (allegedly) AWOL and alcohol in the first few months of academy life.
One wonders if "Kate" perhaps went public as some misguided attempt at damage control.

* I am not attempting to claim the ADF does not have gender issues, I just don't think this case is the best illustration of those issues.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:24 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 4):
Whilst the actions of the (insert expletive) that recorded and broadcast the activities between himself and "Kate" are reprehensible and without question he should be shown the gate

I was actually thinking of some of the other disgusting cases that have come to light recently, rather than that one in particular.

It looks like the flood gates have opened though - and this one incident has prompted many other people to come forward. If there are that many allegations of wrong doing - as it seems, then there has to be an investigation to determine what has happened, if anything, and what needs to be done about it. And the investigation must have some teeth, it can't just be something that can be hid away and disregarded.
 
ltbewr
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:26 am

We have had a number of scandals and serious criminal behaviors at our Military Services Academies in the USA. Unfortuntaly, military forces tend to like to keep them quiet, they hate scandal. Just like in regular society, you are going to get a cross section of persons who will commit acts of sexual assult and other criminal behaviors. There is also the fear of false allegations, as may be the case here, but more likely there are lot more abuses that never see the light of day, some suffer, some never see the penalties they deserve. The best prevention is clear rules know to all up front, to demand honorable behaviors and for those that see them, that as officers to follow honor codes and notify others to cause investigations and subsequent criminal proscution.
 
CXB77L
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:09 pm

Quoting cpd (Thread starter):
I've seen some people suggesting, perhaps sarcastically that the people involved should accept it and "harden up". Do you agree?

In a sense ... yes, I agree with that. In the military, there is a chain of command, and if someone steps outside that chain of command and whinge to the media, then I can't say I have much sympathy. She may not have known that she was being filmed, but having sex with a fellow cadet is fraternisation, and that is simply not on. She is not entirely without blame herself. It makes me wonder whether she even reported this incident up the chain of command, because she knows that she would effectively be admitting to fraternisation, and her career would be over.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 4):
The young lady in question is not completely above reproach either, she had additional disciplinary actions outstanding against her in addition to the fraternization offences of the event in question.
It is easy to blame "defence culture" for this episode but this group of young people had been at ADFA for 2 months, that is not time to become part of the culture*, their actions are a product of where they came from not where they are.. their schools, their environment and yes mum & dad Australia, their families.
If one is serious about a career as an officer in the ADF(or any military) one does not have disciplinary issues involving fraternization and (allegedly) AWOL and alcohol in the first few months of academy life.

I agree entirely. If someone joins the military, they know very well what the military lifestyle requires of them - the biggest thing is discipline. If they don't have the self-discipline to keep their hands to themselves (among others), then they don't deserve to wear the uniform.
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:38 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 7):
I agree with that. In the military, there is a chain of command, and if someone steps outside that chain of command and whinge to the media, then I can't say I have much sympathy.

So, how about this then:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...s-old/story-e6frg8yo-1226036257416

Sometimes, things need to escape that chain of command and get out to the media in order to effect change, otherwise things may well just be covered up. But that is of course a last resort and certainly something you wouldn't do lightly.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 6):
Unfortuntaly, military forces tend to like to keep them quiet, they hate scandal.

We've seen examples in civil service too where so-called "whistle-blowers" have been threatened for releasing damaging information on corrupt/sub-standard conduct on various things. Typically, it's about something that has been happening for a long time, the individual has raised concerns about it - nothing has been done, so they go public with the information.

[Edited 2011-04-12 07:03:40]
 
baroque
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:16 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 8):
So, how about this then:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...57416

Alas not a great surprise. And:
One of the perpetrators said openly that "she was a drunk slut, she had it coming". That person is now a senior officer in the ADF.
He and colleagues are likely to be the ones now making senior admin decisions.

It is clear from some of the interviews relating to the enquiries that Smith and co are well aware of the problems they face.

Will they succeed? Hard to know. Some of the bastardization stories were simply awful.

Is that how mateship is established. If it is, then perhaps mateship should be declared un-Australian just a bit before Wilkie is declared so. Wonder if Wilkie will speak on this BTW. He might well have something interesting to say. Howard's friends may well rue the day they pissed off a determined guy such as Wilkie.
 
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:38 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
It is clear from some of the interviews relating to the enquiries that Smith and co are well aware of the problems they face.

We have to see what happens in light of all of these allegations. They will need to be investigated carefully - and by someone (or a team of people) outside of the establishment. It has to be open and transparent, and what recommendations are made, they must be followed through.

It may well be something that is not widespread, but that's what a thorough and transparent investigation must establish.
 
baroque
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:42 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 10):
We have to see what happens in light of all of these allegations. They will need to be investigated carefully - and by someone (or a team of people) outside of the establishment. It has to be open and transparent, and what recommendations are made, they must be followed through.

I got the impression that his office had been flooded with so many, he has probably put on staff just to list them. Then they will have to be referred to someone* not wearing hob nailed boots to find out what needs to be investigated. Otherwise, Smith will be in more hot water than Kafer.

*Someone will have to be at least two folk, one male and one female it is clear already!
 
CXB77L
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:36 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 8):
So, how about this then:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...s-old/story-e6frg8yo-1226036257416

Sometimes, things need to escape that chain of command and get out to the media in order to effect change, otherwise things may well just be covered up. But that is of course a last resort and certainly something you wouldn't do lightly.

You're right in that sense. If nobody on the outside knows what's happening inside, then things do not get changed. But the difference between the article you posted and the case of the cadet in question is that the author of that article was assaulted, whereas this female cadet had consensual sex with a fellow cadet. What happened to the author of the article was just as wrong as what happened to this female cadet, but the female cadet herself is not entirely without blame because she fraternised with another cadet. All parties involved had blame in this incident, including the female cadet, and she should be disciplined for fraternisation just as the other cadets involved in the filming and distribution of the footage be disciplined for various other breaches.

It's not so much that she brought it to the attention of the media that angers me, but the fact that she is making herself out to be the victim. If she were a civilian, perhaps that would be true, but in the military, fraternisation is an offence. The old saying about people in glass houses springs to mind ...

I would take an entirely different stance on the matter if she were in fact sexually assaulted and the people in her chain of command tried to cover it up. However, she admitted to having consensual sex with another cadet.
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Kent350787
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:44 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 12):
but the fact that she is making herself out to be the victim.

Both she and the male broke the fraternisation rules. From what has been reported, the sex was consensual.

But where exactly did she broadcast the two of them having sex again?
 
TheCommodore
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:45 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 12):
However, she admitted to having consensual sex with another cadet.

That she did.

However, she didn't consent to having it broadcast to all and sundry., thats when the wheels started to fall off


And yet another side to this story...

"Defence Force rocked by vicious gay-hate campaign on Facebook"

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/tec...gn-on-facebook-20110412-1dcqa.html

Reason for no investigation. No one was assigned to the job at various stages over the past eight months.

What a joke !
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CXB77L
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:06 am

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 13):
Both she and the male broke the fraternisation rules. From what has been reported, the sex was consensual.

I'm not saying that the male cadet did not break the fraternisation rules - they both did, and they both should be punished for it. However, the male cadet is more culpable by actually filming the event and (allegedly) was also involved in the broadcasting and distribution of the footage.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 13):
But where exactly did she broadcast the two of them having sex again?

She didn't. But that doesn't make her any less guilty of fraternisation. She may have been a victim in the sense that she didn't know that her private activities with another cadet were to be broadcast to all and sundry, but not in the sense that she had fraternised with another cadet. In any case, all cadets involved in the fraternisation and in the filming and distribution of the video footage should be booted out of ADFA asap. The ADF do not need this type of people to become future officers.
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baroque
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:36 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 15):
Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 13):
But where exactly did she broadcast the two of them having sex again?

She didn't. But that doesn't make her any less guilty of fraternisation.

Remind me which offence you think is more serious, fraternisation, or illegal transmission of arguably pornographic images?
 
CXB77L
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:14 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 16):
Remind me which offence you think is more serious, fraternisation, or illegal transmission of arguably pornographic images?

The latter, but that doesn't justify what she did. She broke the rules, then cried to the media, and now the ADF's image is tarnished because one cadet couldn't keep her mouth shut. This affair would never have happened had she not agreed to having consensual sex with another ... there would've been no fraternisation, and there would've been no film.

There is an excellent column that shows the other side of the story:
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/a...xcuse_this_attack_on_our_military/

Quote:
As for the girl, now described as “innocent” and even “slender”, is it really so strange that Kafer wanted to impose discipline on her, too?

In just two months at his academy, she’d already broken three rules and then rushed to the media to demand the justice her superior was working on.

This does not strike me as the behaviour of a cadet who’s officer material, likely to inspire respect and loyalty among those she’ll one day lead, and Kafer would have betrayed his duty to the rest of us to have overlooked it.

The female cadet is far from innocent in this affair, and I really fail to understand why the media is portraying her to be the victim of a brutal defence culture when the actual fact of the matter is that she broke the rules - more than once, if the article above is correct. The outcry emerged when CDRE Kafer called for her to apologise for her multiple breaches of discipline ... then Mr Smith wanted CDRE Kafer's head on a platter. The media reported this event with a very anti-ADF bias, the government over-reacted, and the media then fanned the flames a bit more. Is it any wonder that ACM Houston threatened to resign had Smith forced CDRE Kafer to leave?

I don't feel any sympathy for this female cadet. She should be punished according to the DFDA, along with all the other cadets involved in the filming and distribution of the footage. When she signed up to join ADFA, she knew (or ought to have known) what she was signing up for. If all perpetrators in this sad state of affairs isn't discharged, then there's something seriously wrong with the system.

[Edited 2011-04-13 08:20:11]
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baroque
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:30 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 17):
If all perpetrators in this sad state of affairs isn't discharged, then there's something seriously wrong with the system.

There we agree as long as it is "are not" just to make sure it is a plurality.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 17):
. When she signed up to join ADFA, she knew (or ought to have known) what she was signing up for.

BUT, you really cannot mean this can you? Signed up to be a porn star - I don't think so.

You may be right that she was impatient, but take the Voyager disaster as an example, you really would not want to rely on swift action from the military. What they did to the skipper of Sydney was criminal and someone should have gone to jail for it. Care to bet that someone here was not also negligent. I would not care to bet that. It may be that they were following the rules as fast as they could, but I would not want to bank on that.

Sometimes when in a hole, it is best to stop digging. But it seems the military are intent on building a bunker buster proof trench system. News for them, one TV set can entirely ruin your bunker. And so can Skype evidently.
 
kaitak
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:42 pm

Quoting cpd (Thread starter):
Should it have been kept quiet rather than becoming public knowledge? I've seen some people suggesting, perhaps sarcastically that the people involved should accept it and "harden up". Do you agree?

Morale is crucially important in the military and you cannot have good morale without standards. Morale is undermined by a failure to impose standards. The leadership of the military lead by example; in the defence academy, you're training the leadership of your country's military for years to come; it is quite right that the public, other officers and the enlisted troops know that the highest standards of behaviour will apply; how are these people supposed to command respect if they come through a process deemed to be tainted? The majority who were not involved in unacceptable behaviour deserve not to be tainted by association. It is, of course, particularly important for female officers; not to have this kind of behaviour treated very seriously undermines them and makes their job of asserting command and leadership very difficult.

Solution: all found to be involved in this behaviour need to be expelled from the academy. Period. Their behaviour makes them unfit to be officers.
 
elmothehobo
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:44 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 7):
She may not have known that she was being filmed, but having sex with a fellow cadet is fraternisation, and that is simply not on.

I do not know the rules for fraternization within the ADF, in my experience however, rules regarding fraternization do not generally punish relationship within and among individuals of the same rank or corps (in the US Military, commissioned officers can date other commissioned officers, so long as they is not dating of individuals above or below in the chain of command), rules do prevent relationships between commissioned officers and non-commissioned officers, or between non-commissioned officers and junior enlisted personnel.

Second, it takes two to tango, they BOTH knew that sex was not permitted and they both engaged in sex within their corps. Besides when punishing two servicemembers for fraternization, the higher ranking individual is almost always punished more severely, especially when that individual used his or her position of authority to have such a relationship.
 
Ken777
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:27 pm

Periodically Defense Departments have a problem that becomes public. THe US Navy just "changed personnel" (including the Commanding Officer) on the USS Stout because of poor leadership:

http://www.military.com/news/article...-uss-stout-cited.html?ESRC=navy.nl

I guess I was abnormally fortunate during my time in the Navy as my CO's were outstanding and were promoted to Admiral. And one XO was eventually promoted to CINCPACFLT and then CNO.

The issues faced in Australia are essentially the same we have seen - poor leadership. It would seem that, with all of the competition in the military for promotions and commands, we can expect those in positions of leadership to fully address these types of issues BEFORE they make it to the media.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:25 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
The issues faced in Australia are essentially the same we have seen - poor leadership. It would seem that, with all of the competition in the military for promotions and commands, we can expect those in positions of leadership to fully address these types of issues BEFORE they make it to the media.

Not sure about that Ken777, you might be right ?

Whoever the CO is, there will always be a few rotten apples in the box, and as these are essentially new recruits, I'd imagine it will take some time before they all get "accustomed" to what life in the armed forces is like, eg, whats acceptable behavior and whats not.

The CO has been stood aside, pending the outcome of the inquiry !

But yet the perpetrators of this event, are still at the academy (Female victim has been granted compassionate leave)

One starts to wonder who the scape goat will be, my bet is the CO .

[Edited 2011-04-13 15:32:40]
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elmothehobo
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:39 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):
One starts to wonder who the scape goat will be, my bet is the CO .

I do not think scapegoat is the appropriate term in this case. If the CO maintains a poor command climate - and this poor command climate leads to these kinds of issues or the suppressions of these issues, it is in essence the CO's fault.

If, as a Platoon Leader, I were to take a relaxed attitude towards drunk driving and one of my soldiers were to get in a car accident and kill an innocent bystander, you can bet that I would be fired and get passed over for company command.
 
Stealthz
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:07 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 16):
Remind me which offence you think is more serious,

I don't think there is any doubt which is the more serious offence, just the media(most) is attempting to portray it as the only offence.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 18):
What they did to the skipper of Sydney was criminal

Bringing any charges against the Captain of the Sydney for the Voyager incident would have indeed been inappropriate as the collision was between the HMAS Voyager and HMAS Melbourne.
Or my learned friend were you referring to the Hayman/Hooke Island incident where the Captain of the HMAS Sydney was indeed facing cout martial and aquitted on a technicality?
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
TheCommodore
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:31 am

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 23):
I do not think scapegoat is the appropriate term in this case. If the CO maintains a poor command climate - and this poor command climate leads to these kinds of issues or the suppressions of these issues, it is in essence the CO's fault.

So why is it that only (at this stage) the CO has been stood down, yet the actual people who committed the offense are still enjoying life !

To me, that indicates that the CO is being made out as the scapegoat.

Sure, if it turns out the the CO has been running a less than "tight ship" by all means, move him on or whatever it is that they do to disgraced CO's but to move him on before the final outcome indicates to me, that certain conclusions have already been drawn.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
baroque
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:29 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 24):

Bringing any charges against the Captain of the Sydney for the Voyager incident would have indeed been inappropriate as the collision was between the HMAS Voyager and HMAS Melbourne.
Or my learned friend were you referring to the Hayman/Hooke Island incident where the Captain of the HMAS Sydney was indeed facing court martial and acquitted on a technicality?

Ooops. Serious brain fade. Sorry and thanks for the correction. I mean Melbourne of course - must have written Sydney to avoid offending the Mexicans. Robertson appears to have been picked on. A cousin of mine had been on destroyers serving in the role of Voyager and he was clear that whatever happened it would be the destroyer's fault. But they basically drummed Robertson out of the service. It seems in many ways that was to avoid admitting they took no notice that the nickname of the other skipper was D D, one D being for Duncan and the other was their problem!!

From Wiki
A postmortem conducted on Stevens' body showed a blood alcohol level of 0.025%, though the significance of this figure was challenged by expert witnesses.[39] It was argued that Stevens was unfit for command on the evening of the incident due to illness, drunkenness, or a combination of the two, and that the description of the collision in Spicer's report and the conclusions drawn from it were inconsistent with events.[40] The hearings lasted 85 days, and the Burbury Report was released publicly on 25 February 1968.[41] It found that Stevens was medically unfit for command, and that some of the findings of the first Royal Commission were therefore based on incorrect assumptions.[42] Robertson and the other officers of Melbourne were absolved of blame for the incident.

With that in the record of the Navy, you should not be surprised at who is blamed in the current situation. The characteristics of the Voyager skipper were much better known than those of either the girl or the men in the current episode - well I hope that is the case.

And the role of sexual intercourse means that the "swept under the carpet"/ "hush it up" buttons would have been pressed immediately.

When he figures out how to solve his problems, the Aus military should probably contact Rupert Murdoch for advice on how to manage PR in the environment of modern media!!!    Then again, probably the pockets of the military are not as deep so his advice might not be that helpful.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:55 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 26):
When he figures out how to solve his problems, the Aus military should probably contact Rupert Murdoch for advice on how to manage PR in the environment of modern media!!! Then again, probably the pockets of the military are not as deep so his advice might not be that helpful.

Hi there Baroque,

That could be tricky for Rupert at this point in time.

He's a little tired up with his British problem (Remember, the telephone tapping episode) at the moment, in fact, it may be a PR company that he currently needs !!

Can you suggest one.    LOL
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
baroque
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:09 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 27):
Hi there Baroque,

That could be tricky for Rupert at this point in time.

He's a little tired up with his British problem (Remember, the telephone tapping episode) at the moment, in fact, it may be a PR company that he currently needs !!

Can you suggest one.

That is the problem I was referring to. Does he have another one? Hope so. Anyway, getting back to the British problem, if he can solve that where a number of the victims are rich enough just to want to sue in court, he should be in a position to help the Aus military. There are similarities with probably a large number of potential complainants in both cases! And I dare say that "sex" is also at the back of many of the issues both for Rupert and the military.

Re his being "tired up" - that is probably one typo that summarised matters very well indeed!!  

I suggest fining the Aus military, three F-35s, two submarines (would suggest a dozen helicopters, but they can be useful in AGW induced floods!!) and additionally just to bring it home, another set of items to total about $400. 10% of all senior grade salaries comes to mind. That can be earmarked for medical research, nice symmetry there. Could be sold as "From causing death to preventing it". As least as honest as the clubs poker machine lucky dip.

Then put the amounts saved to the "Save that nice young man Swann fund".  
 
Springbok747
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:08 am

Thought the sex was consensual..so don't know what is causing all this media frenzy...the fact that he broadcast it to others? Or the fact that it happened in the ADF?
I don't know why she is being portrayed as the victim here..she is equally responsible for breaking the rules and sleeping with the dude..
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cpd
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:56 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 29):

It's not just this one case, but a feeling of many issues - which the reported flood of complaints would seem to suggest.

And then the most recent issue of the Minister and one of the complainants getting threatening phone calls as also reported. Even if the wrongdoings aren't widespread, the investigation needs to happen, if anything to put in the clear the good people who are doing the right thing.

[Edited 2011-04-14 05:00:00]
 
baroque
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:25 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 30):
It's not just this one case, but a feeling of many issues - which the reported flood of complaints would seem to suggest.

And now an even more curious turn.
From this:
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3189931.htm
Andrew Wilkie claims pokies industry death threats and blackmail
Emerges
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/...stard/story-e6frfhqf-1226039361126
But Wilkie the crusading independent didn't dwell on what Wilkie the Duntroon bastard had actually done all those years ago. Funny about that.

He went on to talk about how great it was to graduate from Duntroon to be a career army officer and defence analyst - that is, until he turned "whistleblower" in 2003, accusing the Howard Government of deliberately exaggerating the likelihood of weapons of mass destruction in Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

A week after that radio interview Wilkie's car pulled up next to a battered Holden Jackaroo in Hobart. He was dictating notes to his driver but paused to wave at a potential voter looking at him from the Jackaroo.

Wilkie didn't realise that the big, suntanned man in the other car knew him all too well from many years before - and had been pondering what to do about it since Wilkie fluked the balance of power in the "dead heat" federal election last year.

Last week, an anonymous barrister wrote a searing first-person account published in The Australian revealing how he had been sadistically abused - mentally, physically and sexually - as an officer cadet at Duntroon Defence Force Academy in the 1990s.

For the Jackaroo driver, Brendan Etches, reading about that ordeal revived ugly memories of what had happened to him and other teenagers at Duntroon in 1983.

Etches and two battered classmates were among several who left Duntroon after a few shocking weeks in which they were beaten, humiliated and abused.

As Wilkie would do much later, they blew the whistle. But whereas Wilkie would expose the lack of intelligence evidence to justify invading Iraq - parlaying his instant fame into a new political career - the cadets revealed a culture of entrenched brutality, injustice and cover-up at Duntroon.


And more. I suppose, you could say that perhaps it was all quite useful in that it taught Wilkie a bit about whistleblowing, although not sufficient to keep Little John and Lord Downer of Baghdad happy.

Strange times.

Not sure why so many seem to put horizontal folk dancing and transmitting the event on Skype in the same basket.

How would a spot of treason rate against HFD?

BTW, some folk who know Kafer as a boss seem to speak very well of him. But equally, they give an account of his management style that makes me wonder if the lass might not have had something to complain about.
 
baroque
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:46 pm

Now Richard Ackland brings Murdoch and the Defence academy incident together at
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...vacy-snatchers-20110414-1dfur.html
In Australia uncertainties also abound, although most people aren't concerned about legal abstractions as to whether equitable actions for breach of confidence are developing too many tort-like features.

Thinking of that unfortunate military cadet in Canberra, and the abuse she suffered, brings to mind one of our landmark, but little heralded, Australian cases.

In December 2008 the Victorian Court of Appeal said in a case called Giller v Procopets that the plaintiff was entitled to compensation for breach of confidence as a result of her former partner showing a video of their sexual liaisons to her friends, family and employer.

Among other things, the court granted damages for mental distress, which was a big legal leap.

A leading researcher and thinkers in this area, Professor Barbara McDonald, of the University of Sydney, says the appeal courts are just waiting for a suitable case to sharpen up privacy protections.

So far privacy law, as a separate animal, has been slow to develop. Breach of confidence has stepped into the field and is developing rapidly. A legislated remedy of the variety being pushed by the law reform commissions is simply unnecessary.

As for James Murdoch's box, in which all the hacking troubles are supposed to be contained: just wait for it to burst apart.

justinian@lawpress.com.au


Pass the popcorn as Astuteman would say.
 
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:11 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
And now an even more curious turn.

If that's the case - Wilkie's career as a politician is finished - damaged beyond repair. Politicians have been axed for far less than this - and these allegations are serious.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:32 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 33):
Wilkie's career as a politician is finished

I must say, I wouldn't be losing an sleep if it was finished.

Just goes to show, that history will always catch up with you.

Listened to him give an explanation on the 10.00am news, and It didn't sound very convincing at all.

You know the line..... I just cant recall !!!!

Yeah right Andrew.  Wow!

[Edited 2011-04-14 17:35:16]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:53 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 34):
Listened to him give an explanation on the 10.00am news, and It didn't sound very convincing at all.

He needs to come clean on what has happened, be open and accountable. It's what you accept when you become a politician or a civil servant. No options.

I haven't seen the news today so I have no idea what he has said, other than what I've read in the newspaper this morning while I was on the train.

What has been described (ie, the broomstick incident - which we won't mention in detail on here as it wouldn't be suitable for this site) is criminal, and those who perpetrated that need to be brought to justice.

[Edited 2011-04-14 17:58:16]
 
TheCommodore
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:09 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 35):
It's what you accept when you become a politician or a civil servant. No options.

Hey cpd. Please show me a modern day polli who ever comes clean about anything.

We are all still trying to get a straight forward answer out of Julia, about that night in Kevin's office.

Quoting cpd (Reply 35):
I haven't seen the news today so I have no idea what he has said, other than what I've read in the newspaper this morning while I was on the train.

More or less word for word. He wont apologies for the Nazi incident, because he cant recall, no I bet he cant, funny that really !

Quoting cpd (Reply 35):
What has been described (ie, the broomstick incident - which we won't mention in detail on here as it wouldn't be suitable for this site) is criminal, and those who perpetrated that need to be brought to justice.

Spot on. All though, trying to pin this on him after all these years wont be easy, but I wish the journalist all the success in the world.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:23 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 36):
Spot on. All though, trying to pin this on him

Well, I'm not making any links - just that whoever is responsible, they need to be brought to justice - and that kind of thing will attract surely a pretty serious charge - and time in gaol I'd have thought.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 36):
Please show me a modern day polli who ever comes clean about anything.

There are a few good ones still around. You can work out who they are - shouldn't be too hard.

[Edited 2011-04-14 20:30:15]
 
baroque
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:38 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 36):
Quoting cpd (Reply 35):
It's what you accept when you become a politician or a civil servant. No options.

Hey cpd. Please show me a modern day polli who ever comes clean about anything.

The real trouble is that both of you are right.

There probably ought to be some time line that can be drawn. Holding ALL folk responsible for all they did when 18 or 20 is probably not all that bright, but then neither is giving a free passes all round. What a bloody awful mess.

Let he who is without .............

Any offers?

Turning this in to action. IF and I repeat IF Kafer has made an error, this should be judged more harshly than the girl and her male "admirers". The young ones should not get off Scot free, but what a mess if we let this dog them into the future. And in the general asymmetry of such matters, the girl will be more challenged by the episode than the males. So we should be a tad cautious when we pat ourselves on our collective backs in the equality we give to the genders. (Why is sex consistently used in the place of the correct word - gender?)
 
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:13 pm

I am sorry that I am unable to agree with the assertion that the girl is equally guilty. This is not out of any old-fashioned sense of chivalry but out of an ability to distinguish between breaches of rules and standards.

Whether or not she agreed to consensual sex and whether or not that amounts to fraternisation (can anyone point me to where the rules can be downloaded?) is separate from the fact that the act was broadcast. Previous instances of being drunk, AWOL, etc are immaterial to the present instance. They should be judged separately in the same way that a person on trial for robbery does not have his previous record stated in court until after a verdict is arrived at. The reason is simple. When considering the facts of a specific crime, the previous acts do not make the accused more likely to have committed the crime of which he is accused. A person may have knocked off a bottle of scotch at the bottle shop but does that mean they shot the old lady in the park? If the person is convicted, their previous history may be relevant in sentencing but not before.

It clear that the guy with whom she consented to have sex with betrayed her and set her up with his mates. To suggest that the two are the same is dreadfully wrong. He is a far more vicious bastard, definitely officer material, as reliable as a three dollar note. (Baroque, you can probably remember them: they had Billy-goat McMahon's face on them.   )

I have long been a believer that the tone of any workplace is set by the management. This applies equally to the defence establishment. If, as a result of the enquiry, a senior officer loses his commission as a result of not ensuring standards are set and applied and, worse, ignored allegations of abuse or violations, then it is entirely appropriate that he/ she be kicked out. It goes with the position, the responsibility and the big bucks. If they are not prepared to maintain publicly stated standards then they should go.
 
baroque
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:17 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 39):
He is a far more vicious bastard, definitely officer material, as reliable as a three dollar note. (Baroque, you can probably remember them: they had Billy-goat McMahon's face on them.

            One of the few things to laugh at in this sorry saga and for your post -         

One was like bumping the pier with the Admiral's barge and the other similar to torpedoing the flagship.

BTW a US destroyer let loose a torpedo at the Iowa when it was carrying Roosevelt across the Atlantic. The brass were about to keel haul the destroyer's captain when Roosevelt effectively said "forget it" but said Captain did not remain in command.
http://www.ussiowa.org/general/html/willie_d.htm
Explains how it happened and the consequences. One of Roosevelt's better moments???
 
CXB77L
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:49 am

Quoting Quokka (Reply 39):
Whether or not she agreed to consensual sex and whether or not that amounts to fraternisation (can anyone point me to where the rules can be downloaded?) is separate from the fact that the act was broadcast. Previous instances of being drunk, AWOL, etc are immaterial to the present instance. They should be judged separately

I'm not saying that her offences shouldn't be judged separately to the other cadets' offences, but the truth is, regardless of the severity, all of them involved have been guilty of an offence or multiple offences, and each offence should be dealt with. The female cadet is no more innocent than the cadets who broadcast the act. The fact that other cadets were involved in a more serious offence doesn't excuse her from the fact that she has also committed an offence. The media should stop making her out to be an angel, and a 'victim' of defence culture because she clearly isn't.
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baroque
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:35 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 41):
The media should stop making her out to be an angel, and a 'victim' of defence culture because she clearly isn't.

First suggestion probably not, although even that needs suspended judgment until you really know the circumstances - innocent until and all that???

Second, well you really are almost certainly not in a position to know that - are you? I don't know she is not, and there seems to be some evidence that she might be??

I begin to wonder if your next proposition will be there is nothing amiss with the way that the Aus armed services are being run. Because if it is, I look forward to a lesson on how to inform the minister of the availability of transport ships.
 
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:42 am

http://www.news.com.au/national/cade...utlet/story-e6frfkvr-1226040399686

Someone needs to get that guy a PR person or a speech writer.
 
CXB77L
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:44 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 42):
First suggestion probably not, although even that needs suspended judgment until you really know the circumstances - innocent until and all that???

There has already been a confession regarding her fraternisation. Her other offences as reported are being dealt with ... except all hell broke loose when it came to light that CDRE Kafer asked for her to apologise to her fellow cadets for her indiscretions. I'd be more worried had there been no consequences - CDRE Kafer needed to do something.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 42):
Second, well you really are almost certainly not in a position to know that - are you? I don't know she is not, and there seems to be some evidence that she might be??

No, you're right, I'm not in a position to know for sure. I've never been in the ADF, but it doesn't take Einstein to work out that initiation schemes are rife, with more than one story emerging about people being raped. But being raped is a far cry from having consensual sex. In the ADF, both are wrong. No organisation is perfect, and there has been previous offences which apparently went unreported and unpunished. I don't deny that there are times when government and public scrutiny of what happens within the ADF needs to be done, but this isn't one of those times. Her only complaint was being filmed. Had she not consented to having sex, there would never have been a film.

Quoting cpd (Reply 43):
Someone needs to get that guy a PR person or a speech writer.

It's quite refreshing to see him calling it as he sees it. I guess it's somewhat normal for fit, young men and women to engage in sexual activities, while the ADF has tried to stamp out such behaviour with the 'no fraternisation' rule. It is there for a reason, and people who breach that can and should be disciplined.

From the article:

Quote:
[an unnamed MP] was contacted by phone and email by parents of fellow cadets, ADFA personnel and other Defence staff to paint the teenager as "a wild child".

Guess I'm not the only one who thinks so. I'd be more inclined to believe the people inside ADFA than the media who paint her as an angel. The sooner she gets discharged (along with the other cadets involved in the filming and distribution of the footage of the act), the better it is for all.
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baroque
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:36 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 44):
But being raped is a far cry from having consensual sex.

Might be a bit early to draw a firm conclusion based on that distinction too.

Quoting cpd (Reply 43):
Someone needs to get that guy a PR person or a speech writer.

Presuming you mean James and not Smith, you are being far to kind there but your suggestions at the very least. It is also being pointed out that Hugh White is a bit over the top in defining his limits to civilian control of Defence. If you saw that cartoon during the week, it might just be that Smith does not fancy joining the tombstones to Fitz and Faulk!!

Anyone who claims they KNOW what happened is likely to get burned until investigations are carried out, and even then bearing in mind the nature of the event, don't get that excited that you will ever get to know what really happened.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:19 am

And now another headache for the ADF.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/adf-a...ators-son-hurt-20110418-1dkfd.html

Tax payers of Australia, brace yourself for some big payouts.   
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
baroque
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:23 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 46):
And now another headache for the ADF.

Did you watch Quentin Dempster on 7.30 last Friday. The whole issue of duty of care - this time for overseas students in Universities - seems likely to arise as an issue. A bit different to the ADF but a also a degree of overlap - as in responsibility for those at the institution.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2011/04/15/3193289.htm

And a rep from Macquarie at
http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2011/04/15/3193288.htm

While Universities (presumably) cannot be responsible for the off-campus life of their students, one does have to wonder if allowing them to fall into the clutches of what looks like a criminal group is entirely appropriate. There must be limits to the free market.

The ADF has more closely defined responsibilities and rules compared with Universities so it will be accountable first. But you do wonder if the laissez faire system that Dempster outlines can continue. No doubt Slater and Gordon are watching closely!
 
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RE: The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?

Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:15 am

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mor...andal/story-fn7x8me2-1226046811982

The involved pair have been arrested and charged as described in the news article above with the following:

- using a carriage service to cause offence
- act of indecency

Both have been granted bail.

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