Ken777
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How To Pay No Taxes

Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:05 pm

With April 15th just 2 days away I thought everyone would be interested in how to avoid taxes in the future.

BusinessWeek (not a pinko, liberal mag) has a pretty good article listing some of the more popular games people play - and get away with.

So when you send in your returns this year you'll be able to understand how you can beat the game next year.

And when people write "We Don't Have The Money!" you will have a clearer understanding why.

Quote:

Eleven shelters, dodges, and rolls—all perfectly legal—used by America's wealthiest people

For the well-off, this could be the best tax day since the early 1930s: Top tax rates on ordinary income, dividends, estates, and gifts will remain at or near historically low levels for at least the next two years. That's thanks in part to legislation passed in December 2010 by the 111th Congress and signed by President Barack Obama.

"This is clearly far and away the most generous tax situation that's existed," says Gregory D. Singer, a national managing director of the wealth management group at AllianceBernstein (AB) in New York. "It's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity."
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...+-+how+to+pay+no+taxes_top+stories

I haven't read all the Comments to the article, but the first one caught my eye:

Leonia Hemisley is right, "taxes are for the little people"
 
sw733
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:18 pm

I think it's funny how the people who seemingly don't want to pay taxes are also the ones who want a government payout or government assistance the most...
 
mt99
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:30 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 1):
I think it's funny how the people who seemingly don't want to pay taxes are also the ones who want a government payout or government assistance the most...

Actually on a percentage tax basis - "rich" people pay less taxes

Buffett blasts system that lets him pay less tax than secretary

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ece
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Dreadnought
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:49 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 2):
Actually on a percentage tax basis - "rich" people pay less taxes

Yet the top 50% of wage earners pay 97% of the taxes. In 2008, the top 1 percent of tax returns paid 38.0 percent of all federal individual income taxes and earned 20.0 percent of adjusted gross income. They are paying nearly double their "fair share" (38/20). How does that compute with what you said?

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/250.html

About Buffet, he has the finest tax attorneys in the world. I think it's pretty disingenuous of him to complain about how low his taxes are while paying some accounting firm a substantial amount of money to make sure he pays the minimum possible. If he feels bad about it, he can always fill out his forms himself and not take any deductions.

I also note that in the past 15 years there have been several attempts to eliminate the current tax code (that's all you can do at this point - you can't fix it, it has to be eliminated, burned and started again), mostly from the right. I never see the left supporting that effort, even if it means eliminating all those special deductions and loopholes. I wonder why?
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mt99
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:57 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
How does that compute with what you said?

I meant on a direct tax rate comparison basis.

While a "rich" person might end up paying an effective tax rate of 10%, a "poor" person might end up paying 30% effective tax rate.

While the "rich" 10% makes up the 97% of total tax revenue is true - they still pay less of their paycheck (on a percentage basis) than a "poor" person

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
even if it means eliminating all those special deductions and loopholes. I

If you close the loopholes, it means that companies like GE would have to pay more taxes. That is just wrong, and communist of you.
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Dreadnought
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:11 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
While the "rich" 10% makes up the 97% of total tax revenue is true - they still pay less of their paycheck (on a percentage basis) than a "poor" person

Wrong. They may pay a lower tax rate on their overall revenue, but not on their paycheck. Earned salary (in whatever form) pays income tax rates. But the very wealthy also receive a disproportionate amount of revenue from dividends and capital gains - money that has already been taxed separately before distribution. So your comparison is flawed.
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Flighty
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:15 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
If he feels bad about it, he can always fill out his forms himself and not take any deductions.

Why? That would be doing taxes "wrong." I hear what you are saying, but he didn't get rich by donating his money to the govt and govt employees. Personally I am glad he stuck to business, where he employed a lot of people.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
While a "rich" person might end up paying an effective tax rate of 10%, a "poor" person might end up paying 30% effective tax rate.

That is mostly apocryphal. Okay a billionaire may pay 10%. I suppose that is wrong. A rich surgeon will pay 36% of income, plus sales taxes, plus property taxes, plus state income tax (in some cases >10%). That "rich" person easily can pay over 50% of income in taxes, even today. And I know many who do. It would not be easy to raise rates on them and expect a good result. The ease of that has been overstated.

I was "low income" for several years in the 00s and paid approx 2% in taxes. The govt does not collect taxes from poor. Who was paying for the military... NOT I. Yes, there are sales taxes on certain goods in some places. Again... 2%, roughly. People are getting bent out of shape over GE and Warren Buffet (i.e., large and sophisticated capital gains claimants). The broader overall story is, the affluent people finance the great majority of federal and state governments in the US. I'm talking the top 20%. Others, who have a lower income, have kids, then receive Medicare / Social Security, have the potential to reap large public benefits without ever paying in a similar amount. Hence, they (or I) would tend to favor such benefits in the sense a welfare recipient favors large welfare checks.

My argument is just about the present situation we are in, who is responsible, and what can be done about it. The people funding the govt right now are the affluent income earners and small business owners. Not megacorps such as GE (although their payroll / income taxation is nevertheless huge). And, to be realistic, the people in the bottom 50 percentiles are also not pulling any weight. However that may be distorted in people's emotional arguments.
 
CMHSRQ
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:16 pm

A much simpler version is to get fired from your job then let the entitlements roll in. That way, not only do you not pay taxes but the government pays you.
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windy95
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:26 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 2):
Actually on a percentage tax basis - "rich" people pay less taxes

Buffett blasts system that lets him pay less tax than secretary
Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
I meant on a direct tax rate comparison basis.

This is one of the most disengenous arguments that keeps getting regurgitated. This is comparing Apples to Oranges. The percentage he pays on his investment income is lower than the rate he would pay on salary income when it comes to the federal taxes. That does not mean he is paying a lessor percentage of income taxes compared to his Secretary. You cannot compare income to investment income when it comes to taxes.

And the second thing is how many tax attornesy and accountants do you thinks he has to protect his money from taxes. DId he not recently put billions into a tax shelter for charity instead of donating it to the federal government?
 
mt99
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:08 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
They may pay a lower tax rate on their overall revenue, but not on their paycheck.

You are correct in the overall income clarification. I should have been more clear.

But the important thing, is that you agreed with me that they par a lower tax rate.  
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Moose135
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:13 pm

Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 7):
A much simpler version is to get fired from your job then let the entitlements roll in. That way, not only do you not pay taxes but the government pays you.

Really? Maybe you can tell me where to get some of those "entitlements". When I lost my job, I had to pay for health insurance myself, and my unemployment payments are taxable...
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LAXintl
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:21 pm

Yes I read the article last week - however much of its suggestions are not to not pay taxes, but simply to defer them.

For example why get a bonus today and be socked by a large tax bill at once, if you can work that instead into the future and pay taxes only as you take the money out in smaller chunks based on your needs.

Really basic tax-101 planning.


Btw - Tax day this year is April 18th, due to the 15th being a holiday in some places including in DC.
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Ken777
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:43 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
So your comparison is flawed.

Since income "should" be considered "income" the comparison is fair. Even Buffett agrees that the situation is out of balance.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 8):
You cannot compare income to investment income when it comes to taxes.

But we should be able to. I don't favor double taxation of dividends, but believe that the tax cut should be on the corporate side paying the dividends. That puts the decision on dividends in light of other payments, like new facilities or more R&D.

It also brings into focus the realistic need to tax investment income at the same rates as wages & salaries.

People may cry that such a change would "discourage" people from investing, but I believe that is bull. People invest in a company because they believe it will be profitable. Apple hasn't paid a dividend in the years of Jobs II, yet look at the stock on a 5 year chart. Dividends haven't counted, nor has the capital gains rates. People have invested because of the performance of the company and the increasing value of the stock. That is how it should be.
 
LAXintl
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:13 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
People may cry that such a change would "discourage" people from investing, but I believe that is bull. People invest in a company because they believe it will be profitable. Apple hasn't paid a dividend in the years of Jobs II, yet look at the stock on a 5 year chart. Dividends haven't counted, nor has the capital gains rates. People have invested because of the performance of the company and the increasing value of the stock. That is how it should be.

Maybe you don't realize it, however one of the largest investment (after simple CDs) income vehicles for elder American's is dividend producing stocks. A hell of a lot of people buy funds, or specific stocks solely for their rather predictable dividend income streams, especially now in a time of low interest rates the dividends can out produce anything you get at the bank. (average dividend fund in 2010 produced 7%+, (some as high 16%))
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DocLightning
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:36 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):

Yet the top 50% of wage earners pay 97% of the taxes.

And yet we don't have enough money. There's a budget crisis. You yourself have said you don't want new taxes.

So how about instead of new taxes, we close the loopholes.

There is no reason that I should be paying 40% of my taxes to Uncle Sam when GE, with $13Bn(?) in profits is paying negative taxes. No new taxes, just make sure they pay the taxes they're supposed to be paying and not using little loopholes and games to evade them. Tax evasion is a crime for a reason.

This idea that the rich should pay no taxes at all while we little schleps carry the burden is indefensible and I can't believe you're defending it.
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Flighty
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:53 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
There is no reason that I should be paying 40% of my taxes to Uncle Sam when GE, with $13Bn(?) in profits is paying negative taxes.

Here is a devil's advocate view. Yes GE pays zero on its profits. But. Why tax companies anyway. We do not tax the government (it would be nonsensical). It is actually not very reasonable to tax companies either. Instead, I suggest taxing individuals.

Companies are doing good things. We hope they invest and make as much profit as possible. More jobs, more stuff. If individuals accrue that money as *income*, that is much easier to tax. Also, as you mention, sophisticated companies already do not pay the tax. Smaller firms DO pay the tax... and for what. Tax the owner instead.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
we little schleps

Sorry... most "little schleps" are not paying. You sound like you're in the top 20% (putting it mildly) so you are indeed paying, and you always will. The "evil rich" probably won't pay a lot, but a 25% cap gains rate is a start.
 
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:32 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):

Here is a devil's advocate view. Yes GE pays zero on its profits. But. Why tax companies anyway.

Because that's the way it's set up and because one of the reasons that governments like companies is because they provide tax revenues.

I could ask the opposite question: why not tax companies and not individuals?
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Okie
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:06 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):

I could ask the opposite question: why not tax companies and not individuals?


That would cause the tax to be passed on to the end user and we would not want to tax the near 50% of the population that does not pay income taxes.

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PPVRA
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:10 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
There is no reason that I should be paying 40% of my taxes to Uncle Sam when GE, with $13Bn(?) in profits is paying negative taxes. No new taxes, just make sure they pay the taxes they're supposed to be paying and not using little loopholes and games to evade them. Tax evasion is a crime for a reason.

The fact that they had profits last year and owed no income taxes does not mean they are evading taxes.

Likewise, it is also possible to have no profits and still owe income taxes. There are a number of expenses that the IRS disallows and different methods are used for things like depreciation expense. If you are looking at an SEC-filed income statement to determine how much a company should have paid in taxes, that is your first mistake because none of those adjustments I cited above are included.
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DocLightning
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:09 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 18):

The fact that they had profits last year and owed no income taxes does not mean they are evading taxes.

Yes it does. They are doing it legally, but it's evasion.
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Dreadnought
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:04 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Yes it does. They are doing it legally, but it's evasion.

No, that's tax avoidance. Tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is not.
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offloaded
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:04 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Yes it does. They are doing it legally, but it's evasion.

Tax avoidance is legal. Tax evasion is not. Very similar for sure, but it's all in the word.
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windy95
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:49 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
Since income "should" be considered "income" the comparison is fair. Even Buffett agrees that the situation is out of balance

Then why does he hire lawyers and accountants to hide his money. Why not put his money where his mouth is? Send it to the Government instead of tax avoiding charity funds. Lead by example or STFU Mr Buffett.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
It also brings into focus the realistic need to tax investment income at the same rates as wages & salaries

Which is double taxation.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
People may cry that such a change would "discourage" people from investing, but I believe that is bull

And you would believe wrong. Why invest in higher risk stocks if in the end a lower risk Bond will bring you the same yield at the end of the year agter taxes.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
I could ask the opposite question: why not tax companies and not individuals?

Because that make there product more expensive and less competitive in the world market. No taxes on Corporations while flat taxing the purchase or the income of the workers will bring more jobs back to the US by lowering the prices of products made.
 
seb146
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:52 pm

Why do middle and lower class individuals have such a hard time taxing the rich? Why is there such outcry over taxing the very very wealthy? Remember how the rich suffered under Eisenhower? Nixon? Johnson? Kennedy? Carter? Ford? The slums of the rich? How Rockafeller and Taylor and Getty had to stand in the soup kitchens just for a hearty meal? How many of us regular joes fall under the category of "rich"? How many of us regular joes would acutally be affected if the tax rate on those making over $10,000,000 goes up to, say, 75%?
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windy95
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:02 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
Why do middle and lower class individuals have such a hard time taxing the rich?

Because most of us realise it is their money and not ours. It was there innovation, creation, drive and hard work that helped them get there. Why should we be able to penalize them because of their success? Why do they have less rights becaue of their success? Why do they have to feel that they owe the system becuase of their creative ability? Is not the fact that the top 5% now pay 95% of the taxes not enough for you?

Quote:
According to Internal Revenue Service data, the entire taxable income of everyone earning over $100,000 in 2008 was about $1.582 trillion. Even if all these Americans—most of whom are far from wealthy—were taxed at 100%, it wouldn't cover Mr. Obama's deficit for this year.

We have a spending problem and we do have a tax problem but that is caused by the myriads of rules and regulations not by the amount of income

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LAXintl
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:07 pm

Interesting point is that Obama backs LOWER corporate tax rates to aid in competitiveness.

As is the US essentially has the highest corporate tax rate amongst major industrialized nations.

This was brought up again yesterday by the White House Budget Office. In an interview a Mrs S (did not get the full name) said Obama felt that it was imperitive to look at lowering corporate tax rates as part of broader tax simplification.

Per CBO each percentage-point reduction in the 35 percent corporate tax rate could cost $8 billion or more a year in foregone revenue to the Treasury.
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Flighty
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:06 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Yes it does. They are doing it legally, but it's evasion.

They are designing significant parts of their business to accrue taxable losses/depreciation. For example their aircraft business. GE's aircraft assets probably did lose money. But that is part of their business which is designed to offset taxes. It's

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25):
Per CBO each percentage-point reduction in the 35 percent corporate tax rate could cost $8 billion or more a year in foregone revenue to the Treasury.

That sounds like an extremely cheap and effective stimulus program to me. The market is already 100% funding that economic expansion. No govt guesswork necessary. It is 100% effective stimulus.

I know it sounds counter-intuitive to say that businesses are friendly animals -- people working together to produce and market goods and services FOR EACH OTHER. But that is the fact. Businesses are good. The absence of business is a pale tribal existence where essentially we are slaves to the govt. (Otherwise, who would work or farm).

Businesses are THE great humanitarian victory that has brought survival and comfort to the human race. There is nothing socially negative about business, when regulated according to people's wishes.

Medicine is a business. Law is a business. Making environmentally friendly toasters is a business. These are all good.

When we tax profits, we are shrinking the size of businesses -- potentially, down to zero, if we tax 100% of profit. Then the lights go dark pretty much. The doctor probably stops working, the shoemaking company, etc. And the farm. They all grind to a halt.
 
fr8mech
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:20 pm

And, this is what it wrong with our tax code. Taxed entities can manipulate the system and pay nothing or something close to it.

Our tax code is fundamentally unfair to those in the middle class that have good income, but don't have the resources to exploit the tax code.

Warren Buffet, to use an example, can pay hos accountants/tax advisors/wealth advisors a lot of money to keep from paying taxes on his income. So long as they save him more than he would pay the government, he's ahead. And, let's not forget, Buffett has already made his billions. He can stand to not make another dime (hence, not pay anymore taxes) and not change his life style one bit. We do not tax wealth, per se, here, we tax income.

I'm not saying we should tax wealth, what I am saying, is that whenever I hear one of these multi-millionaires say that we need to increase the tax burden on the rich, I tune them out. The increase on the tax burden is not on the rich, but on those who would like to be rich and are actually doing something other than buying lottery tickets.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
Remember how the rich suffered under Eisenhower? Nixon? Johnson? Kennedy? Carter? Ford? The slums of the rich? How Rockafeller and Taylor and Getty had to stand in the soup kitchens just for a hearty meal? How many of us regular joes fall under the category of "rich"? How many of us regular joes would actually be affected if the tax rate on those making over $10,000,000 goes up to, say, 75%?

We would be affected becuase tax revenue would go down. How many of the multi-millionaires in the era of confiscatory tax rates actually paid those rates? I'd hazard that very few, if any did. They gamed and manipulated the system through accountants/financial advisors/lawyers/politicians. So long as they paid less to their advisors than they would to the government, they were ahead.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
So how about instead of new taxes, we close the loopholes.

Close the loopholes and eliminate deductions and lower the effective rates. Revenues will go up and taxation would be simplified. Hell, the government could even make revenue projections more accurately which makes the budget process more accurate and less of the disingenuous witchcraft that is currently the norm.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
Why tax companies anyway.

I don't see a problem with taxing companies. They are citizens. They partake in the protections afforded by the government. They thrive (or die) under the same protections and services we do. They should pay taxes.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
And yet we don't have enough money. There's a budget crisis.

We have plenty of money...we just spend it on things tat government has no business spending on. Just for an example, and yes, it's a drop in the bucket, but it is a convenient example, but what compelling interest and what essential government function is being fulfilled by the funding of Planned Parenthood?

The government has long over-reached and has run out of money. Wasn't it Thacher that said (and I para-phrase) that socialism is great until you run out of other people's money? Well, guess what US government...you've run out of money.
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seb146
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:17 pm

BTW, we have had "trickle down" or "Reaganomics" now for how many years and how many jobs has it created? Is the unemployment rate near zero as theorized? Because, as the theory goes, lowest taxes for the very wealthy and they will create jobs, right? And those jobs are where, exactly?

EDIT: http://www.wweek.com/portland/articl..._want_you_to_know_about_taxes.html

[Edited 2011-04-14 16:19:55]
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fr8mech
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:23 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):
BTW, we have had "trickle down" or "Reaganomics" now for how many years and how many jobs has it created? Is the unemployment rate near zero as theorized? Because, as the theory goes, lowest taxes for the very wealthy and they will create jobs, right? And those jobs are where, exactly?

Again, the problem is not how much money the government takes in...it is how much it spends that puts a drain on the economy. You can tax all you want, but if you just keep up'ing the cost of government, you will get deeper in the hole.

This has nothing to do with trickle down. It has everything to do with a bloated, over-reaching, overly intrusive, un-controllable, insatiable government.
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seb146
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:23 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
How many of the multi-millionaires in the era of confiscatory tax rates actually paid those rates? I'd hazard that very few, if any did.

So, they are going to cheat anyway, so let's just let them? Well, if that is the case, I should just be able to walk out of Best Buy with a 52" plasma TV and MacBook and no one could say a word, right?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 24):
It was there innovation, creation, drive and hard work that helped them get there.

Really? Even the ones who inherited their fortunes (Bush girls spring to mind) and never worked a minute in their lives? They should not be taxed AT ALL but reap ALL the benefits? Really?
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goblin211
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:29 pm

You get away with it by not being a US citizen and living off of a relative and their social security number. You're an artist and you get paid in cash. Anyone doubt this?
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fr8mech
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:02 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
So, they are going to cheat anyway, so let's just let them? Well, if that is the case, I should just be able to walk out of Best Buy with a 52" plasma TV and MacBook and no one could say a word, right?

You fail to see my point It's not cheating if you do it within the law. If you have the right people working for you, they can help you exploit our cumbersome tax code to your benefit. Clean up the tax code and you can easily lower the effective rate and still bring in more revenue.

Let's take me for an example: Our tax bill was about $28,000 in 2010, after all our deductions and using our limited ability to exploit the tax code. Without any exemptions or deductions, our bill would have been about $31,000. Why not just scrap the tax code and all these deductions and exemptions and special cases and just reduce the rate so that I would still pay my $28,000 without having to look for all these exemptions, etc.?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
Really? Even the ones who inherited their fortunes (Bush girls spring to mind) and never worked a minute in their lives? They should not be taxed AT ALL but reap ALL the benefits? Really?

Or the Kennedy's? The Kerry's? Soros'? Pelosi's?
Again, we don't tax wealth (nor should we) we tax income. You want to change the system? I bet you get a lot more emphatic resistance from all those millionaires that are calling for higher taxes.

Quoting goblin211 (Reply 31):
You get away with it by not being a US citizen and living off of a relative and their social security number. You're an artist and you get paid in cash. Anyone doubt this?

But, that's illegal. Under our current system, there are plenty of legal ways to avoid taxation, at least at the federal level.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:10 am

Quoting mt99 (Reply 2):
Buffett blasts system that lets him pay less tax than secretary

Well Buffet and others can put their money where their mouths are and still donate whatever they feel they aren't required to be paying in taxes to the US Treasury.
Donate to the US Treasury
When I see Buffet and the others who feel the same way he does start using the above site to donate money that they apparently feel guilty about not paying, then I'll be more willing to listen. Until then, I'll continue to them out and regard what they say as hot-air.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
If you close the loopholes, it means that companies like GE would have to pay more taxes. That is just wrong, and communist of you.

But why would the Democrats want to close the loop holes for a company that made substantial donations to the Democratic Party?   

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
Really? Even the ones who inherited their fortunes (Bush girls spring to mind) and never worked a minute in their lives? They should not be taxed AT ALL but reap ALL the benefits? Really?

If that's what the people who initially earned (and already paid taxes on) that wealth decided, then yes. Any argument of yours to the contrary is nothing but a cover for pure jealousy on your part that they have it and you don't.
You want to sit here and complain that people like the Bush daughters are born into wealth and that's "not fair" and that they reap benefits they didn't earn. Well guess what bud - you reap benefits that you didn't earn of living in a developed Western nation - something that billions of others around the world cannot say, and it's simply because you were born here and they were not. Yet how much extra income are you donating to Africa, Central Asia, Southeast Asia, etc? If you want to really start doing wealth redistribution, let's do it on an international scale and then we'll see how much of a hissy-fit you throw when all of the sudden you find yourself on the end that's being taken from instead of being on the receiving end that you want to be on. But the rest of us know that you wouldn't support such a system, and it's why redistribution liberals like yourself are the biggest hypocrites of all.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
seb146
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:57 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 33):
Any argument of yours to the contrary is nothing but a cover for pure jealousy on your part that they have it and you don't.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):
Or the Kennedy's? The Kerry's? Soros'? Pelosi's?

The difference is: These people actually had to work. Learn a trade and/or skill. Had to do something other than have a name. People should just be able to sit there and rake in money without actually paying taxes on that money but use services provided by the government? That argument goes against evertying the right is crying about: they get something for nothing. That is what irritates me. If people actually make money, that is fine. I don't care. It is people that just sit around and do nothing for their billions.

This country would be a lot better off if we all contributed a lot more and, in return, got education and health care instead of only the wealthy getting education and health care because they are the only ones that can afford it. If we ALL paid into the system, we would all be "elitists" and educated. But, the right just wants a bunch of uneducated and sick people running around thinking tax breaks for 1% of Americans will directly affect them. Guess what? It won't! Roll back the Reagan tax breaks NOW! It will only harm the smallest per cent of Americans. Not you. Not I. Only the hated ones like Soros, Pelosi, Kennedy, Ried, Kerry... Oh, wait. We can't roll back any tax cuts because that would affect Palin, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Boehner, Bush, Huckabee, Trump... and they are more important
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
PPVRA
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:02 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
Really? Even the ones who inherited their fortunes (Bush girls spring to mind) and never worked a minute in their lives? They should not be taxed AT ALL but reap ALL the benefits? Really?

YES, EVEN THEM. Even they are contributing to innovation, and you can add Paris Hilton to the list too, and not because of her stupid line of clothing/perfumes and such junk. These people still have substantial amount of investments in other industries and that is still helping everybody.

And btw, you say they don't deserve to reap these benefits. And what about YOU? What makes YOU deserve to benefit from it? Neither you, nor me, nor the government have a higher claim on this money. The highest claim is written on the will of the deceased who passes on their wealth.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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DocLightning
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:12 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 22):

Because that make there product more expensive and less competitive in the world market. No taxes on Corporations while flat taxing the purchase or the income of the workers will bring more jobs back to the US by lowering the prices of products made.

That's the biggest line of bull...

So you pass the corporate taxes off onto the employees. So one of two things has to happen. Either employee salaries have to go up, meaning that the company winds up paying taxes by proxy anyway. Alternatively, salaries don't go up and then nobody has any money to spend on goods and services, which crushes the economy.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:18 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 34):

Hmmm.... no response to whether or not you think it'd be right to ship YOUR money off to Africa in the name of wealth redistribution. Well I'm not surprised. You can ignore it or dance around it all you want but the point remains - it's clear that liberals like you only support redistribution when you're on the receiving end, but not when you'd find yourself on the "being taken away from" end. You can say the kids of these billionaires did nothing to earn it and so they're not entitled to it. Well, even if that is true, the same concept can be applied to you and the fact that you live in a developed Western nation instead of some Third World Hellhole. You didn't do anything to "deserve" the right to live here that some kid living in a hut in Africa didn't do. You were just lucky and were born here and on a global scale, you were born into significant wealth, and well, they weren't. Compared to that kid in Africa, you're filthy rich, so why don't you send your money to them seb146?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):
And btw, you say they don't deserve to reap these benefits. And what about YOU? What makes YOU deserve to benefit from it?

  
For a side of the political spectrum that always talks about "keep the government out of my life", the left sure does love to put their nose in people's checkbooks. Anyone on the left care to explain that one?
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
Ken777
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:34 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
one of the largest investment (after simple CDs) income vehicles for elder American's is dividend producing stocks.

And yet it is tax free. And generates little incentive for the companies paying the dividends to consider if applying that cash in other directions - like R&D investments.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Tax evasion is a crime for a reason.

Tax evasion is a crime and tax avoidance is an American Sport. I can remember playing it for the first time when I finally bought a house and was able to deduct the interest and property taxes.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
Why tax companies anyway.

I believe it is appropriate to tax companies. The corporate world is never slow to take advantage of the national infrastructure - which is how it should be. The corporate world is also provided with a huge market they can sell to. And the corporate world has to be regulated at a reasonable level - and that level increases when the corporate world is abusive.

All this takes money and taxes are one way the governments receive that money.

Quoting okie (Reply 17):
we would not want to tax the near 50% of the population that does not pay income taxes.

That 50% is paying a chunk of taxes, from FICA to sales tax and the various built in taxes. like taxes on gas. Even if they are renting their home they are also indirectly paying property taxes.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 22):
Then why does he hire lawyers and accountants to hide his money.

He hires his lawyers and accountants to keep his mountain of details in order. No need to "hide" any money as he is probably audited every year - with the accountants and attorneys on hand to answer IRS (and SEC) questions.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 22):
Which is double taxation.

IF the tax break had been on the corporate side (a deduction for the dividend) it would not be double taxation. But it would have established a larger pool of cash that could have gone to building the company or paying dividends. That makes sense if your goal is building the economy.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 22):
Why invest in higher risk stocks if in the end a lower risk Bond will bring you the same yield at the end of the year agter taxes.

I don't know of a reputable bond that is delivering after tax profits equal to Apple stock.  

And the markets determine where stocks and bonds move, regardless of the tax rate. All we get from a reduced tax is lower tax revenues, increasing the national debt.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
Why do middle and lower class individuals have such a hard time taxing the rich?

Because the "rich" have the money to pay lobbyists and campaign contributions to get the loopholes they want. They can buy just about any loophole they want. The average American isn't that fortunate so they get to pay the highest taxes.
 
PPVRA
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:07 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 38):
IF the tax break had been on the corporate side (a deduction for the dividend) it would not be double taxation. But it would have established a larger pool of cash that could have gone to building the company or paying dividends. That makes sense if your goal is building the economy.

I'm hardly an expert on taxes but I still don't get the logic of allowing deductions for dividends. Dividends are not expenses, they are distributions.

Nor do I get the logic of trying to keep that money within the company. It is actually worse for the economy, because you want money to flow to where it is needed and not be stuck forever in, say, the oil business. Dividends are often reinvested and often in other industries.

[Edited 2011-04-15 18:09:08]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Ken777
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:06 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 39):
I still don't get the logic of allowing deductions for dividends. Dividends are not expenses, they are distributions.

I don't support the double taxation of dividends, but I do believe that it is preferable for the company to have the deduction and not the individual.

Look at a company with, say, $20,000,000 in net profit before taxes. They pay 35% (or $7,000,000) in taxes and distributes $10,000,000 in dividends. That leaves them with $3 million for growth of one type or another.

If we shift the tax break to the companies they have the same $20,000,000 net before taxes, pay out $10,000,000 in dividends (which reduces their tax payment to $3,500,000) and have $6,500,000 in funding for growth. R&D, new plants, software systems to increase productivity or competitiveness, etc.

My preference is to shift the tax break to the companies as I see that as a core factor in long term growth.

As far as moving funds from one industry to another it is possible to move both personal funds (via a stock broker) or corporate investments can move funds to different industries.
 
Flighty
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:26 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):
BTW, we have had "trickle down" or "Reaganomics" now for how many years and how many jobs has it created? Is the unemployment rate near zero as theorized?

Yeah, pretty much nothing except business has been invented that actually pay for the living of the people in this country.

As for the rich, I agree! We should not give them tax breaks on their income... including capital gains and the luricrous estate tax exemptions. Right now the limit for a married couple is TAX FREE $10 million to their heirs.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 39):
Dividends are not expenses, they are distributions.

Dividends are taxes as income by the recipient!!! Not even as cap gains. For some people, that is a 50% tax right there, at the very end. (OK, for rich Oregon residents  
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40):
Look at a company with, say, $20,000,000 in net profit before taxes. They pay 35% (or $7,000,000) in taxes and distributes $10,000,000 in dividends. That leaves them with $3 million for growth of one type or another.

Well I agree, this is why profits should not be taxed. The individuals are paying ++ % on dividends (their income tax bracket).

Profits can either be:
(1) Cycled back through the economy by investment, growth, hiring people!!!
(2) Filed away as shareholder assets (= Rich guy payday!!)

Of those choices, #1 is a good and holy activity. We all want that to happen. Why tax it... we are adding "stimulus" just for this to happen. #2 is where actual rich guys USE the "profits" to do their rich guy activities (such as selling shares which embed the new company cash). This is taxable on the individual level.

I am not sure why we tax economic activity itself. Especially the really successful beneficial kind. It doesn't raise much money and is mostly a bad policy IMO.
 
goblin211
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:35 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):
But, that's illegal. Under our current system, there are plenty of legal ways to avoid taxation, at least at the federal level.

Oh, my bad! It is a flaw in the system though, but at least I'm not in that situation. But bottom line is you have to be rich enough to make your donations more than the amount of taxes you have to pay.
From the airport with love
 
Ken777
Topic Author
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:31 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 41):
Well I agree, this is why profits should not be taxed. The individuals are paying ++ % on dividends (their income tax bracket).

Profits should still be taxed - I just prefer that it be a post dividend profit, with the individuals paying the income taxes on money received. In terms of tax receipts it might be the same, or a little less. In terms of a potential for financing corporate growth and investment shifting dividend taxes to the individual presents more support.

Quoting goblin211 (Reply 42):
But bottom line is you have to be rich enough to make your donations more than the amount of taxes you have to pay.

That is one of the games politicians play. I would have no problem changing that tax law to eliminate the percentage test.
 
PPVRA
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:42 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40):
If we shift the tax break to the companies they have the same $20,000,000 net before taxes, pay out $10,000,000 in dividends (which reduces their tax payment to $3,500,000) and have $6,500,000 in funding for growth. R&D, new plants, software systems to increase productivity or competitiveness, etc.

They could pay the full $20 million in dividends and owe no taxes at all.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40):
As far as moving funds from one industry to another it is possible to move both personal funds (via a stock broker) or corporate investments can move funds to different industries.

Selling stock doesn't involve the stock issuer in most cases unless it's an IPO, new issue or repurchase. I also rather have Google focus on their core business than try to act as an investment firm for me.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
fr8mech
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RE: How To Pay No Taxes

Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:40 am

Quoting goblin211 (Reply 42):
But bottom line is you have to be rich enough to make your donations more than the amount of taxes you have to pay.

Doantions are only part of the game. Capital expenditures, trusts, gifts, etc. All of these and more are used by those that have lots of money (not necessarily income) to offset there income and reduce their tax liability. All legal.

Just ask John Edwards how he reduced his taxable income.
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