dxing
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How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:58 pm

After spending billions to bail out the auto giant, the stock is slowly sliding downward while the market on the whole is still moving up.

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=G...ues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=%...Interactive#symbol=%5EDJI;range=6m

Considering that it is estimated that we (the government) would have to get somewhere on the order of $53 dollars a share in order to get the rest of our money back, looks like we might be holding that paper for a good long whle. Nice job Mr. President!!

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...287.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories
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WarRI1
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:31 pm

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...la-na-bush-20110413,0,136924.story


I guess we will have to see how it all plays out. 700 Billion for Wall Street, Non-union. 50 billion for GM was it? Union. Is that the difference?
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Aaron747
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:34 pm

And as I posted earlier in the week, while AIG and a few others may have put some kitty back, there is still lots of money we're propping up for the goon squad on Wall Street:

This whole setup — in which millionaires and billionaires gambled on mountains of dangerous securities, with taxpayers providing the stake and assuming almost all of the risk — is the reason that it's insanely premature for Wall Street to claim that the bailouts have actually made money for the government. We simply can't make that determination until the final bill comes in on all the dicey securities we financed during the bailout feeding frenzy.

In the case of Waterfall TALF Opportunity, here's what we know: The company was founded in June 2009 with $14.87 million of investment capital, money that likely came from Christy Mack and Susan Karches. The two Wall Street wives then used the $220 million they got from the Fed to buy up a bunch of securities, including a large pool of commercial mortgages managed by Credit Suisse, a company John Mack once headed. Those securities were valued at $253.6 million, though the Fed refuses to explain how it arrived at that estimate. And here's the kicker: Of the $220 million the two wives got from the Fed, roughly $150 million had not been paid back as of last fall — meaning that you and I are still on the hook for most of whatever the Wall Street spouses bought on their government-funded shopping spree.


http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...-in-on-the-bailout-20110411?page=3

Still would love to know why you or I were not entitled to "no-recourse loans" from the Fed. Just don't get it. WTF is a loan you don't have to pay back if you don't feel like it?? Sounds like a gift to me.

[Edited 2011-04-16 15:36:19]
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windy95
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:54 pm

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
After spending billions to bail out the auto giant, the stock is slowly sliding downward while the market on the whole is still moving up.

I guess they have not figured how to pay for employees and all of the retirees yet. The news of a Volt burning a house down friday did not help the stock either...
 
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WarRI1
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:05 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 3):
The news of a Volt burning a house down friday did not help the stock either...

You cannot blame the car, blame the defective wiring in the house. When you plug something into your outlets, it behooves you to know the wirings rating, and condition.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
windy95
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:10 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 3):
The news of a Volt burning a house down friday did not help the stock either...

You cannot blame the car, blame the defective wiring in the house. When you plug something into your outlets, it behooves you to know the wirings rating, and condition.

But if the infrastructure does no hold for these electric vehichles that will still make people think even more before buying. Not good for a already overpriced product.
 
Okie
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:14 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
You cannot blame the car, blame the defective wiring in the house. When you plug something into your outlets, it behooves you to know the wirings rating, and condition.

Which is something I noted in previous threads, the additional costs of upgrading your home wiring to deal with an $2,000.00 charger that they seem to forget to mention.

Okie
 
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WarRI1
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:21 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 5):
But if the infrastructure does no hold for these electric vehichles that will still make people think even more before buying. Not good for a already overpriced product.

I wonder if GM had a warning sticker to cover the possibity of overload. I would think they covered themselves liability wise. It is true, it does not help a new product like you say. I wonder about the other cars, or was GM just unlucky enough to be the first company to run into defective wiring.

Quoting okie (Reply 6):
Which is something I noted in previous threads, the additional costs of upgrading your home wiring to deal with an $2,000.00 charger that they seem to forget to mention.

That is a large expensive item to forget, and a large expense to upgrade the wiring. Not a good selling point.

[Edited 2011-04-17 05:45:35 by SA7700]
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dxing
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:34 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1):
. 700 Billion for Wall Street,

Wasn't for that bail out either. Unfortunately the people to hold accountable for that are no longer in power.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:10 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 9):
Unfortunately the people to hold accountable for that are no longer in power.

Wrong. Ben Bernanke still has a job, as do most of the Fed bank directors. But we might as well call them "the Untouchables", since they aint going anywhere.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
mham001
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:06 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):

I wonder if GM had a warning sticker to cover the possibity of overload.

That is entirely the responsibility of the electrician installing the device.
This fire happened in the garage of an electric car diy'er. I hadn't heard the followup about the wiring but it's not surprising. They may have even been charging both cars at once.
 
wn700driver
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:31 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1):


I guess we will have to see how it all plays out. 700 Billion for Wall Street, Non-union. 50 billion for GM was it? Union. Is that the difference?

No it did not. Neither bail out is excusable. I'm starting to feel like an extremist in my old age, but it's about damned time that failure actually means something. Run a bank into the ground selling crap mortgages? FAIL! Sell crappy cars no one wants for decades on end, while paying exorbitant rates for do-nothing employees? FAIL!
No one wants to suffer for even a minute in this country of ours, regardless of the long term consequences (as though spending a month or two looking for a new job is truly suffering anyway...), so what do we get? Exactly what we deserve. Car companies building ever-worse products in the face of increasingly better and cheaper competition. Banks and investment firms ready to ready to wipe you out with their greed/incompetence (take your pick), with no accountablity whatsoever...

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):

I wonder if GM had a warning sticker to cover the possibity of overload.

Doubt it.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):

Wrong. Ben Bernanke still has a job, as do most of the Fed bank directors. But we might as well call them "the Untouchables", since they aint going anywhere.

That's the thing though. The feds, despite what we like to think, are largely apolitical. Greenspan was around for how many administrations? This is why I don't see Obama bailing the car companies out and pushing through the stim package as any worse than Bush's TARP program. A lot of that stuff really was pushed through at the fed level rather than the administration level. Good luck getting Fox or MSNBC to point that out though...
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
cgnnrw
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:38 pm

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
Nice job Mr. President!!

Well it wasn't exactly like GM was doing beautifully until November 2008 and then suddenly "wham" things went down the toilet the day after the election. In my opinion it was a "damned if you do, damned if you don't situation".
A330 man.
 
dxing
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:30 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Wrong. Ben Bernanke still has a job, as do most of the Fed bank directors. But we might as well call them "the Untouchables", since they aint going anywhere.

I was speaking of persons directly accountable to the people such as President Bush. We don't get a vote on the fed chair or its directors.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:36 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 13):

I was speaking of persons directly accountable to the people such as President Bush. We don't get a vote on the fed chair or its directors.

Like wn700 said, that's the whole thing. The Fed deploys public money to its heart's content, messing around with the private banking market whenever their buddies ask for help. Pretty effed up if you ask me.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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DocLightning
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:04 pm

I don't own stock, period.

I own bonds. I own foreign currencies. I own cash.

I do not and will not own stock. It is not my goal to get rich; it is my goal to avoid losing my shirt on another crash.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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DfwRevolution
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:46 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
I do not and will not own stock. It is not my goal to get rich; it is my goal to avoid losing my shirt on another crash.

You only lose your shirt if you sell after the crash. A diversified buy-and-hold approach is safe and reliable over the long-run while offering far greater returns than you will get from bonds or cash. Most cash options right now won't even keep up with inflation.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:03 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 16):

You only lose your shirt if you sell after the crash.

Not if you owned stock in a company that went belly-up. Been there, done that, almost wound up homeless.

I will earn my money, but it is not my goal to get rich. It is my goal to not be poor.
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"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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DfwRevolution
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:42 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Not if you owned stock in a company that went belly-up. Been there, done that, almost wound up homeless.

Am I correct in saying you didn't diversify then? If completely writing-off any one asset you own would almost leave you homeless, then something is wrong with your portfolio.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
I will earn my money, but it is not my goal to get rich. It is my goal to not be poor.

I'm certainly not here to criticize your investment strategy because you probably have very different goals than other people on this board (such as myself). For example, you probably will not have any children and won't need to fund their college tuition. Given today's tuition costs and the average rate of tuition hikes, I expect to need approximately $750k to put three kids through a 4-year undergrad program at a typical public university when the time comes. That certainly won't leave me rich. I'm clearly going to need a bigger lever arm than I get with bonds.

My point is only that investing in stocks is not a reckless or financially irresponsible avenue.
 
Ken777
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:50 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
Still would love to know why you or I were not entitled to "no-recourse loans" from the Fed. Just don't get it. WTF is a loan you don't have to pay back if you don't feel like it?? Sounds like a gift to me

If the payback is not in a timely manner then there is a need to "motivate" the debtors with increasingly unpleasant tax consequences.

Start with not allowing a deduction on the interest charged on any unpaid loan. Then make it more unpleasant each 6 to 12 months.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 11):
Neither bail out is excusable.

Maybe not, but a true depression would have been far more inexcusable.

Personally I support the auto bailout far more than the Wall Street bailout. At least with the auto investments we have an opportunity to get our money back from BOTH direct and indirect taxes, as well as an eventual selling of the shares.

I'm also a supporter of holding onto those shares for a while. Selling early doesn't repay the Treasury as much. And possibly allow taxpayers to purchase 50 to 100 shares each with their tax refund. That would be an interesting approach, especially is we can avoid another dip in the economy.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 11):
FAIL!

While I would not have been concerned if there had been some additional pain in Wall Street (at the upper end of the pay scales) I'm personally happy that GM and Chrysler are still going. I have an '02 De Ville and when it dies I'll buy another GM car - that's how good the Caddy has been for me, and how comfortable.

And the "foreign cars" are always that great. Toyota has been in the top of the list for recalls and a Corolla has been the only car in my family history that needed to have an engine replaced. I'll buy a Mazda or Nissan or Hyundai well before buying a Toyota again.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
It is not my goal to get rich; it is my goal to avoid losing my shirt on another crash.

Wait until after the crash and then buy some shares. Look for companies that people buy from every day (groceries and gas) and look for companies that have strong insights into their markets and invest in R&D - like Apple. Might also be a good idea to check on the company's cash position before buying.  
 
baroque
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:16 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1):
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...la-na-bush-20110413,0,136924.story

I guess we will have to see how it all plays out. 700 Billion for Wall Street, Non-union. 50 billion for GM was it? Union. Is that the difference?

Seems at worst a very fair question. So what is the answer - that is how does repayment of the GM assistance funds compare with that from the banks. Or is this it!

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
And as I posted earlier in the week, while AIG and a few others may have put some kitty back, there is still lots of money we're propping up for the goon squad on Wall Street:

Any ideas of the proportion still outstanding. I will bet someone has made money out of rescuing mortgages.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Not if you owned stock in a company that went belly-up.

Beat me to it. Some very big names have folded. After producing Merlin and Griffin engines like crazy during WWII and having a large military engine business after it, who would have thought RR would go under with some piffling little fans on the RB211s. But go under they did. Maybe GM will come roaring back as the new RR has done is another thought.
 
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Aesma
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:16 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1):
I guess we will have to see how it all plays out. 700 Billion for Wall Street, Non-union. 50 billion for GM was it? Union. Is that the difference?

Wall Street just plays with money to make money, they don't build or sell anything.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
PPVRA
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:36 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
It is not my goal to get rich; it is my goal to avoid losing my shirt on another crash.

Wait until after the crash and then buy some shares. Look for companies that people buy from every day (groceries and gas) and look for companies that have strong insights into their markets and invest in R&D - like Apple. Might also be a good idea to check on the company's cash position before buying.

Three words: Exchange Traded Funds.

There are as many different ETFs as there are Apps for Apple and Android. And honestly, it makes it easier for the average investor. Learning some basic finance/statistics concepts is easier than learning to read the accounting speak in financial statements. Plus it limits your risk to fraud on the scale of Enron.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1):
I guess we will have to see how it all plays out. 700 Billion for Wall Street, Non-union. 50 billion for GM was it? Union. Is that the difference?

Wall Street just plays with money to make money, they don't build or sell anything.

GM didn't really build anything people want. That's actually worse than not building anything. But that's for another thread.

In any case, nobody should have gotten a single bail out penny.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Ken777
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:17 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 18):
Given today's tuition costs and the average rate of tuition hikes, I expect to need approximately $750k to put three kids through a 4-year undergrad program at a typical public university when the time comes.

When you look at the insanity of needing three quarters of a million dollars to pay for your kids education it gets obvious that we need to re-look at public colleges and universities.

Why not shift funds from Pell Grants to increased funding of public colleges & universities. Encourage High Schools to provide AP courses that earn college credits.

We need to return to the standard where a state resident could graduate from a state school with a solid education and not face a lifetime of debt. It is in our national interest for us to educate as many as possible at the level they are best suited for.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 20):
Maybe GM will come roaring back as the new RR has done is another thought.

GM is coming back, just like Ford has.
 
Okie
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:44 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 23):
GM is coming back, just like Ford has


The production rate has been 50 units per day or roughly 3 per hour with a 2 shift operation for the Volt.
GM claims it will double production sometime in 2011. That of course was before troubles in Japan with the power which has all production of transmissions shut down.
I find it hard to believe that 12,500 units a year is going to save GM even with a tax rebate at taxpayers expense.
When the GM plant was operating in OKC they always mentioned that they produced at 70 units per hour, that means they could have produced a years worth of Volts in about 10 days.
I sure would not try to discourage technological advancements but the production numbers sure are not going to add to the bottom line at GM anytime soon.

Okie
 
Ken777
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:55 pm

Quoting okie (Reply 24):
When the GM plant was operating in OKC they always mentioned that they produced at 70 units per hour, that means they could have produced a years worth of Volts in about 10 days.

I'm not looking towards the Volt to bring GM back. That is simply a showroom draw IMHO.

Painful as it is I believe GM is moving forward. I'll have no problem buying another car from them. (I actually learned to drive on a '55 Pontiac station wagon, which was a beast by today's standards.)

I was sad to see GM shut down the OKC plant, And the Ford glass plant in TUL. Ready for some local government incentives to bring them back?
 
Okie
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:05 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
I was sad to see GM shut down the OKC plant


OKC was one of the most efficient plants they had BUT they had a buyer for the building and property.
GM was not going to shut down another plant and pay taxes till kingdom come on a building and property somewhere else. GM has a massive quantity of old buildings and property in the rust belt that will be a burden for decades to come.
Boeing shifted about 500 jobs from Kalifornia to fill up the GM plant because of the high taxes unfriendly attitude towards business in Kalifornia and will hire about 500 more locals. Did I mention that the building is right at the end of the runway for KTIK.
Yes, I know how to spell California.

Okie
 
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WarRI1
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:27 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 20):
Maybe GM will come roaring back as the new RR has done is another thought.

I hope this is so. Why Americans would want to see more Americans jobs go down the tubes is beyond me. I do not give a damn, whether they are union, or non. We need jobs here, we have sent them away by the millions, see where it has gotten us. I thank you for considering my question fair, usually not the way when discussing union matters on here.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
Wall Street just plays with money to make money, they don't build or sell anything.


I would like to know what your point is. a bailout is a bailout, is a bailout. My question is, once again, does bailing out a unionized corporation, become more odious, simply because it has union help? Is this more odious than bailing out the perpertrators of the greatest swindle of the United States and others have ever seen. Wall Street and its greed crashed the world economy. The unions get villified because they defend themselves, try to earn a good living, and retire with dignity. Wall Street, hands out billions in bonuses, while being bailed out by us, the taxpayers. Not to mention the billions that were handed out while creating this fraud that darned near ruined us all.

[Edited 2011-04-18 18:52:04]
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cargolex
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:35 am

Two things:

1. The Volt is a nice car, but isn't "the" car that is going to bring GM back to it's glory days. It's a niche model and in its first generation, it always will be. The same way the first Prius was a niche car.

2. Partisans need to put aside thier dislike for Presidents Obama and Bush on this issue. Both of them knew that to let GM (and Chrysler) fail would have meant seriously dire consequences not just for the economy and the auto industry but for many other industries with knock-on effects. Both Presidents were warned by the Pentagon that a GM failure could impact national security because of the potential impact on the defense industry. Both Presidents gave the auto companies bailout funds, and if the odometer had not clicked over on the Bush administration, President Bush would, in no uncertain terms, have done exactly what President Obama ended up doing. How do I know that? He has literally said as much.

No US president facing 10% unemployment would allow the collapse of a major part of our manufacturing sector - and such a decision, to allow the auto companies to go under and the effects that would mean for the country - would constitute a gross dereliction of duty on the part of the President and the government.

The bailout may leave you feeling very sick, but so does chemotherapy. Get over it.

[Edited 2011-04-18 20:36:18]
 
PPVRA
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:45 am

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 28):
Both Presidents were warned by the Pentagon that a GM failure could impact national security because of the potential impact on the defense industry.

Which is a particularly acute type of non-sense. It's not like there would be no more auto manufacturing in the US if GM/Ford went down, and I don't remember where I read it but apparently Toyota is extremely good at adapting their factories to different models, more so than other manufacturers.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:51 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
I do not and will not own stock. It is not my goal to get rich; it is my goal to avoid losing my shirt on another crash.

Then at the very least buy gold or raw diamonds or something. The value of the Dollar is going in the tank. What if this happens?



By the way, hyperinflation in 20's Germany was started intentionally. The German government, saddled with a huge amount of war debt and reparations, decided to "iflate its way out of debt". The problem was that inflation, once started, quickly goes out of control unless you have strict, draconian control over fiscal policy, and the Germans lost control.

Considering the stellar fiscal discipline of the US government, do you trust them to try that? I hear a lot of people talking about it, thinking it's a great idea.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:40 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 20):

Beat me to it. Some very big names have folded.

Lucent (that cost me a good portion of my college money). Enron. And a few others...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):

Then at the very least buy gold or raw diamonds or something. The value of the Dollar is going in the tank. What if this happens?

Foreign currencies.  
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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dxing
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:16 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 23):
GM is coming back, just like Ford has.

Not according to the stock price. Nor with problems like these.

http://www.wfsb.com/news/27541598/detail.html

http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/20...-after-a-steering-wheel-falls-off/

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 27):
I hope this is so. Why Americans would want to see more Americans jobs go down the tubes is beyond me. I do not give a damn, whether they are union, or non. We need jobs here, we have sent them away by the millions, see where it has gotten us. I thank you for considering my question fair, usually not the way when discussing union matters on here.

Nobody wants to see American jobs go down the drain, but at the same time there is absolutely no good in propping up a company(s) that are not being managed correctly or producing products that are up to standard quality wise.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
wn700driver
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:13 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):

Maybe not, but a true depression would have been far more inexcusable.

I question whether that was even in the offing here, of course. But, supposing it was. . . If it resulted in a fundemental restructuring of who we economically are as a nation, indeed as a western world, and that the end of a short depression caused a great deal of "fixes" to our long standing problems with debt, then no, this was indeed a far worse outcome than just letting the chips fall where they may. . .

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):

If the payback is not in a timely manner then there is a need to "motivate" the debtors with increasingly unpleasant tax consequences.

Start with not allowing a deduction on the interest charged on any unpaid loan. Then make it more unpleasant each 6 to 12 months.

While I don't doubt those penalties exist, how to they stack up next to the whole sale destruction of the Ch 7 liquidations they've earned?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
I'm personally happy that GM and Chrysler are still going. I have an '02 De Ville and when it dies I'll buy another GM car - that's how good the Caddy has been for me, and how comfortable.

And the "foreign cars" are always that great.

I'm not going to get into what's better, foreign/domestic, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that it's very difficult to truly define "foreign" or "domestic" anyway (think Ohioan Accord vs Korean Aveo). Anyway, it's largely a personal preference these days. . .

I will say this though. If you really have to buy domestic, have you looked at Ford at all? Both from a corporate and product line up stand point, there is no way GM is even in the game by comparison. I give Ford a lot of credit for the same reason I do Hyundai. Compare their product lines of 15 years ago (and their corporate and financial health in Ford's case) to present, and you'll see that they've really come a long and amazing way.

By comparison, GM has managed only to produce a crybaby-esque case to the government that they're somehow even still relevant, let alone "essential." All this talk about suppliers being affected, and people being laid off. . . How did those suppliers like the massive write-offs they had to choke down when GM (in many cases their only client, by design) did their BK? Was that any better than liquidation? I doubt it.

I'm purchasing a car later this month, and there is a zero percent chance that it will be anything other than a Ford, Kia, or Hyundai. Needless to say, GM wasn't even considered when the search was far broader.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 27):
My question is, once again, does bailing out a unionized corporation, become more odious, simply because it has union help?

No, it honestly does not. Greed is greed, whether the vote for it comes from a board room or a union meeting. . .

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 27):
The unions get villified because they defend themselves, try to earn a good living, and retire with dignity.

In fairness, you can easily make the same arguments for the good folks on Wall Street.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 28):

The bailout may leave you feeling very sick, but so does chemotherapy. Get over it.

All the more so when it is not medically necessary. Anyway, if you really believed that, then you'd have to acknowledge the reality that GM has had its chances, blown all of then fantastically, and needs to go, full stop. Medicine sucks sometimes, but that's the way it is. We'll be having the same debate 10 years from now, regarding GM, no doubt. . .
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baroque
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:44 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 20):

Beat me to it. Some very big names have folded.

Lucent (that cost me a good portion of my college money). Enron. And a few others...

And just the possibility of a downgrade would have lost you 2% yesterday if you had been buying the DJ Index.
 
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Aesma
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:03 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 27):
I would like to know what your point is. a bailout is a bailout, is a bailout. My question is, once again, does bailing out a unionized corporation, become more odious, simply because it has union help? Is this more odious than bailing out the perpetrators of the greatest swindle of the United States and others have ever seen. Wall Street and its greed crashed the world economy. The unions get vilified because they defend themselves, try to earn a good living, and retire with dignity. Wall Street, hands out billions in bonuses, while being bailed out by us, the taxpayers. Not to mention the billions that were handed out while creating this fraud that darned near ruined us all.

My point is pretty much what you said. Bailing out a company that build things (and has lots of employees) feels far better than bailing out banks and speculators. If bailing out the banks was a lesser of two evils, then at least there should have been a real reform, huge taxation of bonuses, etc. Instead, it's just as if nothing happened, and the next Wall Street crisis is probably already in the making.
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cargolex
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:21 pm

Quote:
Which is a particularly acute type of non-sense

...Nevertheless, that's what happened. Apparently when conservatives say we should listen to the generals, they only mean we should listen to them when they say things that conservatives want to hear.

It's also absolutely true that a breakdown of the supply chain, which would inevitably have happened if 40% of America's auto manufacturing sector had been allowed to permanently close, would definitely have had an effect on defense contractors.

Quote:
It's not like there would be no more auto manufacturing in the US if GM/Ford went down,

But of course, nobody was talking about Ford going under, and aren't now.

But if you have a big chunk of the destination customers for automotive suppliers go under, then those suppliers either have to dramatically raise prices or go out of business. And those suppliers supply all auto manufacturers, not just GM or Chrysler. So if those two major customers went down, the suppliers for manufacturers across the globe would have a serious problem.

Quote:
and I don't remember where I read it but apparently Toyota is extremely good at adapting their factories to different models, more so than other manufacturers

That was true in perhaps 1990. But these days, the toyota production method is very widespread and you have multiple types of vehicles being built on the same lines. Usually you are limited to one platform of vehicle - for example the Infiniti FX, Infinit G35, and Nissan GT-R can all be built on the same line (and were, in Tochigi, until the Japan earthquake) - but you can't built a Nissan Micra on that line. The same is true of Toyotas, where you can build things like the Venza and its platform mates - Lexus ES, Camry, Avalon, in the same factory and in some cases on the same line. But Ford and GM do the same.

In any case, it is not just a matter of one brand or another. It's a matter of the supply, dealer, and finance infrastructures and the jobs they support.

If Saab finally goes under, it may take some factory jobs and some dealers with it. But Saab is a small stand-alone now, and isn't going to bring down the supply industry or the other related industries. But General Motors and Chrysler, at the time of the bankruptcies, were about 15-20% of the global market (more in the US, because Chrysler had very little presence in foreign markets). That is the kind of market hit that effects all the players.

Quote:
Considering the stellar fiscal discipline of the US government, do you trust them to try that?

Were you complaining about this before the election of Barack Obama? Because this is not a new thing, although we're in a new round of it. It's interesting that there's so much criticism of Obama's fiscal policies from conservatives and yet we heard absolutely nothing about this during Bush's eight years of crazy-train fiscal policy. It makes you look hypocritical, and it is why you have such a hard time changing hearts and minds. When Conservatives were in power, you were silent. Now you are vociferous. Very little seems to have changed, really, but for some reason, now you are angry.

The big TARP bailout? A Bush program. Larger than the Auto bailout by orders of magnitude. And yet, it's GM and unions and Obama you're focused on.

Forest. Trees.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:11 pm

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 36):
Were you complaining about this before the election of Barack Obama? Because this is not a new thing, although we're in a new round of it. It's interesting that there's so much criticism of Obama's fiscal policies from conservatives and yet we heard absolutely nothing about this during Bush's eight years of crazy-train fiscal policy.

Jeezus, we keep hearing this lame excuse...

1) Yes, there were plenty of complaints about the deficit through 2005, at which point things started getting better. By 2007 (the last GOP-controlled budget), the deficit (including war costs) was down to $160 billion - 1% of GDP, and slated to drop by about $60 billion per year. Yes, they overspent for a while, but brought things back under control.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy11/index.html

2) How can you possibly compare a $160 billion deficit to a $1.6 Trillion deficit, point to the smaller one and say "well you did it too, you're just as bad!". That's like saying a poke in the ribs is as bad as a shotgun blast in the belly.
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cargolex
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:27 pm

I guess because your numbers are not honest.

Yes, the deficit was lower in those years - 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007. But that is mainly because the cost of the wars was not included in that number. Instead, the Bush administration opted to have those conflicts paid for by direct appropriation and CR. Including those costs in the annual budget as has happened under Obama gives you a much more realistic (and much more frightening) number.

Why did we go to war in Iraq? What was the purpose? Was it worth spending millions of dollars per day? I didn't think it was at the time - but we've never gotten any kind of apology from those who told us that we who were against it "loved saddam" and should "just get out."

We tried it your way and it failed - but instead of manning up and saying "hey, these policies were wrong, we helped create this mess" it's "anybody who disagrees with us is a marxist" - and we're right back where we started.

I don't trust the GOP on fiscal matters because they don't have a good track record and they lie all the time. You want to focus narrowly on one thing or another but never admit any culpability for the current situation - and you pretend that simply slashing discretionary spending is the answer.

You know what we should do? HIKE TAXES. Because eventually, we'll have to. Some pain now means less pain later. When it happens later, it will be VERY painful.

But all we ever hear about are how tax cuts can solve every problem. Cancer? Tax cuts. Social problems? Tax cuts.

And we hear how returning to the tax rates of the Clinton or Reagan era will reduce all our businesses to rubble. Did nobody own and operate a sucessful business when Ronald Reagan was president?

Yes, he cut taxes - he also raised them. Because he had to. It's called fiscal responsibility.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:35 pm

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 38):

Yes, the deficit was lower in those years - 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007. But that is mainly because the cost of the wars was not included in that number.

Go to GPO and look it up yourself. Those are net actuals, not projections. War costs are included.
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:08 am

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 18):
Am I correct in saying you didn't diversify then? If completely writing-off any one asset you own would almost leave you homeless, then something is wrong with your portfolio.

A diverse portfolio is a "safe" portfolio. Sounds like he needs an investment manager to set up a strategy that best suits his needs. Unless, of course, he's exaggerating (which he has been known to do, cough, from time to time).
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WarRI1
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:34 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 29):
Which is a particularly acute type of non-sense. It's not like there would be no more auto manufacturing in the US if GM/Ford went down, and I don't remember where I read it but apparently Toyota is extremely good at adapting their factories to different models, more so than other manufacturers.

I am afraid your anti-union bias maybe showing. What say you about the 700 billion for Wall Street? Fine and dandy with that handout?
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:38 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 32):
Nobody wants to see American jobs go down the drain, but at the same time there is absolutely no good in propping up a company(s) that are not being managed correctly or producing products that are up to standard quality wise.



Pardon, if I do not agree, about products. I do think that Wall Street produces a Product, they did so well. They only cost us 700 billion so far. we are still feeling the loss from their product.
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WarRI1
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:40 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 33):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 27):The unions get villified because they defend themselves, try to earn a good living, and retire with dignity.
In fairness, you can easily make the same arguments for the good folks on Wall Street.

Hardly, do you need a primer on greed?
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WarRI1
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:43 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 35):

My point is pretty much what you said. Bailing out a company that build things (and has lots of employees) feels far better than bailing out banks and speculators. If bailing out the banks was a lesser of two evils, then at least there should have been a real reform, huge taxation of bonuses, etc. Instead, it's just as if nothing happened, and the next Wall Street crisis is probably already in the making.

My apology. I agree with your statement 100% Wall Street was spanked, with 700 billion of our dollars. We got bent over, and it was not for a spanking.
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WarRI1
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:52 am

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 36):
The big TARP bailout? A Bush program. Larger than the Auto bailout by orders of magnitude. And yet, it's GM and unions and Obama you're focused on.

Forest. Trees.

Every once in awhile, someone gets it right, you are right on the money. I do not think this is rocket science, nor written in Greek. There is an anti-union bias to this condemnation of GM's bailout, gotta love that Wall Street bailout. Methinks that self interest maybe playing a part also. Screw GM, and their workers, show me the money. That is what counts, not country, not fellow citizens. My savings, my money, funny that.
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Flighty
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:07 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 44):
My apology. I agree with your statement 100% Wall Street was spanked, with 700 billion of our dollars. We got bent over, and it was not for a spanking.

I don't get this. TARP cost about 29 billion dollars. It's very possible it will end up a profit. GM was a giveaway to unions of about 50 billion dollars. That money will never come back. Unless you get really creative with income taxes, regional economic models and so on.

The bank bailout was a temporary liquidity loan. We can expect the very flush bank sector can and will pay back near 100% of the liquidity infusions. I was against it, but we do have the power to collect that money.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:21 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 46):
I don't get this. TARP cost about 29 billion dollars. It's very possible it will end up a profit. GM was a giveaway to unions of about 50 billion dollars. That money will never come back. Unless you get really creative with income taxes, regional economic models and so on.

I do not recall it being called a union bailout. I recall it was a GM bailout. A corporation. What the heck, GE is creative, why could GM, not do the same? GM may well pay it all back, do you have a crystal ball? Amazing, Wall Street causes the collapse with naked greed, outright fraud, and all we can do is condemn GM, and of course the unions. which comes first in the blame game, the corporation, or the union? How many bankers have been indicted? Puzzle all you want, we got screwed by the banks, Wall Street, not GM, or the unions. A profit? We know who got the profit, do you?

[Edited 2011-04-19 20:34:31]
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Flighty
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:40 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 47):
A profit? We know who got the profit, do you?

I thought we were talking about who got the taxpayer's money. Our government acts to stabilize banks. Fortunately, that isn't costly and the financial panic was almost completely solved.

Today we have a budget problem. A financial panic is a completely different animal. GM collapsed because it was a bad business. The unions got a huge payoff and ownership of GM stock. This was a direct payment from taxpayers to the UAW, of tens of billions. The UAW got 39% of GM, stockholders 1% (!), bondholders 10% (!!!), and taxpayers 50%. Who paid for this, the bondholders and taxpayers. And obviously the shareholders got totally raped.

Do I feel sorry for UAW members, that's easy, no.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: How's That GM Stock Working For You?

Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:58 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 48):
I thought we were talking about who got the taxpayer's money. Our government acts to stabilize banks. Fortunately, that isn't costly and the financial panic was almost completely solved.

We could discuss this until the end of eternity, the greed of the banks, and Wall Street caused the collapse. GM was guilty of poor business decisions. The unions took what was negotiated, built what was developed by the corporation for sale.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 48):
Do I feel sorry for UAW members, that's easy, no.

One need not be a rocket scientist to come to that conclusion, and as was mentioned earlier, anti-union bias has colored this from the beginning. Billions were lost in savings, billions were lost in equity on homes etc. The financial sector comes out smelling like a rose as usual. They caused the problem, we paid. GM was caught in a weak position, millions of small business ceased to exist, we are still in the soup, but the banks are raking it in. One might accuse GM of not paying back the Tarp money, but whose money do the banks use to pay back those loans? Ill gotten gains, to say the least. The banks used the Tarp money to make money, which they pocketed, and handed out in bonuses.
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