TheCommodore
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The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:52 pm

What a complete disaster this is.

How the hell can so many escape without being noticed by the authorities until the "next morning" ???      

Must be an inside job IMHO, carried out with the help of corrupt prison officials no doubt.

Anyway, more than 100 of them are Taliban commanders, and will probably have already taken up fighting positions in the mountains, just in time for the summer fighting season, brilliant !

So, I guess this has just extended the coalitions deployment by many years, Aust, NZ, US, etc, while we try and round them all up again before they kill any more people.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/the-grea...ghan-jailbreak-20110426-1ducn.html
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Mortyman
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:15 pm

This is deffinetly an inside job and just proves ones again how corupt the society over there is. To be honest I really don't understand what the point is anymore. We should bring our soldiers home. Norway has spent way to much money and time over there for nothing. .

[Edited 2011-04-25 16:53:46]

[Edited 2011-04-25 16:54:59]
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:30 pm

A couple of years ago, this same prison had another prison break when over 900 Talibans escaped.

Let's see...

We are not allowed to interrogate them;
We can't ship them to Gitmo - I don't think any new prisoners have arrived there in years.
We can't send them to other overseas holding centers - they have all been shut down.
We can't turn them over to the locals - they'll just set them free.

I say we don't bother taking prisoners anymore.
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Okie
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:38 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
How the hell can so many escape without being noticed by the authorities until the "next morning"


They just put them in about 20 chartered buses?


Okie
 
san747
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:20 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

I say we don't bother taking prisoners anymore.

I agree. Let's leave. We've tried, we've done what we could, with some success, but honestly, what's the point 10 years later? Our military resources and spending could much better be used in other places.
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AI121
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:07 am

The inmates fled through a 320 meter long tunnel the Taliban said it built over 7 months. Of course they couldn't have achieved that without insider help. This is major setback for US forces. Let's see how government reacts to this.
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Okie
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:47 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Anyway, more than 100 of them are Taliban commanders, and will probably have already taken up fighting positions in the mountains, just in time for the summer fighting season, brilliant


Or the summer growing season, last year they had the best illegal harvest of opium in decades.
Kind of ironic that a few days after that announcement last year Obama showed up. Justsayin.

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baroque
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:35 am

Quoting san747 (Reply 4):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

I say we don't bother taking prisoners anymore.

I agree. Let's leave.

Somehow I think that is probabaly not exactly what he meant.

This may have link with the Wikileaks Gitmo documents mentioned in
Value For Money? (by Baroque Apr 25 2011 in Non Aviation)
Value For Money?

How many of this group were really Taliban, Taliban commanders even, or had simply been sold into captivity? As far as one can work out the money is still available and I would imagine that many Afghans are still in the mood to trade, especially if it removes someone you do not happen to like.

Certainly it must have been an inside job except unusually the tunnel was dug from the outside. But who were those who escaped and who were their contacts on the outside. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that one tribal group had simply arranged for another they did not like to be locked up and this was the payback.

Few things are simple, but Afghanistan is the model of riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.
 
NIKV69
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:20 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
So, I guess this has just extended the coalitions deployment by many years, Aust, NZ, US, etc, while we try and round them all up again before they kill any more people.

Like I have said before. The only people that can destroy the Taliban, AQ and Hezbollah are the "good" Muslims. We can't do it by ourselves. Once we leave they will just go back to what they were doing before we went to war. As long as the Islamic world tolerates the hatred and killing we will never make any progress. If radical Islam is something that the majority of "good" Muslims don't support I don't understand how things like this happen.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
We can't turn them over to the locals - they'll just set them free.

Yep. Contrary to popular belief many locals share their view of anything that doesn't go in line with the Quran.
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FlyPNS1
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:33 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 8):
Like I have said before. The only people that can destroy the Taliban, AQ and Hezbollah are the "good" Muslims. We can't do it by ourselves.

You and I don't agree on many things, but on this we are in perfect agreement. The only way to stop Muslim radicals is for the rest of the Muslim world to step in.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 8):
As long as the Islamic world tolerates the hatred and killing we will never make any progress.

Sadly true.
 
comorin
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:34 pm

One more opportunity for CNN to show us an endless loop of Taliban in pajamas training away. That itself is an act of terrorism...
 
baroque
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:40 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 10):
One more opportunity for CNN to show us an endless loop of Taliban in pajamas training away. That itself is an act of terrorism...

At least that gives me a smile. We got it on SBS and ABC here, same footage, and I went Oh God, not again - again!!

That goes with the shot of Hicks and his empty rocket launcher. Apparently that was taken in Kosovo, he never ever fired a rocket launcher, and the article in question was not "for firing", it was for "holding and having your photo taken".
 
comorin
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:05 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
That goes with the shot of Hicks and his empty rocket launcher. Apparently that was taken in Kosovo, he never ever fired a rocket launcher, and the article in question was not "for firing", it was for "holding and having your photo taken".

You're right. Sometimes I wonder if we've evolved at all from the Roman 'Bread and Circuses' days...
 
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DocLightning
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:00 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 8):
If radical Islam is something that the majority of "good" Muslims don't support I don't understand how things like this happen.

The same way that the vast majority of Russians during the Cold War weren't vehement communists, but were rather victims of the system.

The same is true here. The radicals are the ones with the weapons, the ones who enjoy violence. The good people who don't like violence must either turn to violence themselves or simply live with it. I think too many of them are too busy feeding, clothing, and housing themselves and their families to care too much about politics.
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NIKV69
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:12 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
but were rather victims of the system.

Oh yea of course.   

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
to care too much about politics.

This isn't politics. It's religion. It's amazing how these same people that can't be bothered with violence still find time to beat and stone women and kill daughters who shame them by not wanting to follow the rules of arranged marriages. You know who want to become "westernized"
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Dreadnought
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:20 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 14):

This isn't politics. It's religion

In Islam, they are one and the same. That's the problem. Islam is not just a religion but a comprehensive set of laws which govern your personal life (that's the religion part), but also politics, economics, civil rights, warfare and international relations.
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Arrow
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:36 pm

With all the deficit financing we're now mired in in the west, I can't for the life of me understand why we're all still there. Our guys are supposed to be outta there this summer, but not long ago I read that a few will be hanging in there to protect the handful of social workers that will still be toiling away. I'd like to see ALL of them come home -- now.

Afghanistan is 10 years of botched, ill-considered western policy that followed hard on the heels of 10 years of botched, ill-considered Soviet policy. Don't we ever learn?
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Dreadnought
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:39 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 16):
Afghanistan is 10 years of botched, ill-considered western policy that followed hard on the heels of 10 years of botched, ill-considered Soviet policy. Don't we ever learn?

Next time, just nuke the place and be done with it, eh?
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DocLightning
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:50 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 14):

This isn't politics. It's religion. It's amazing how these same people that can't be bothered with violence still find time to beat and stone women and kill daughters who shame them by not wanting to follow the rules of arranged marriages. You know who want to become "westernized"

Have you actually ever met someone from that part of the world?

You're going to say that you have, much like Sarah Palin claims to have a ton of gay friends. Fact is you obviously haven't. Because if you had, you would have met someone a lot like you. They just want the best for their families and kids.

Just as there are religious fanatics here, there are religious fanatics there. The difference is that religious fanatacism there is celebrated where as here it is merely tolerated.
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NIKV69
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:47 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
Have you actually ever met someone from that part of the world?

Good Lord are you predictable. As a matter of fact my cousin is brining his gf who is from Egypt over for coffee tonight. Not that you will believe it but you just don't want to hear anything counter to your view or anything different than your MSNBC race and bigot card. Give it a rest. I am sick of you casting all these assumptions that people that don't tow your pro left line are rednecks who have never met anyone outside of the caucasian race.


Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
You're going to say that you have, much like Sarah Palin claims to have a ton of gay friends. Fact is you obviously haven't. Because if you had, you would have met someone a lot like you. They just want the best for their families and kids.

What does Sarah Palin have to do with this? Give it a break. She has no business being in this discussion. My views are left of hers. Not that you want to remember that because it once again destroys your weak argument.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
Just as there are religious fanatics here, there are religious fanatics there. The difference is that religious fanatacism there is celebrated where as here it is merely tolerated

You forget that it results in many beheadings, killing and otherwise total violence? It's celebrated there because it's a huge belief for many over there. Don't let the civil unrest in Syria, Egypt and Libya fool you. The majority of them don't like anything different from the Quran.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Mir
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:24 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 19):
As a matter of fact my cousin is brining his gf who is from Egypt over for coffee tonight.

For what it's worth, Egpyt and Afghanistan are very different places.

-Mir
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sw733
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:38 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
over 900 Talibans escaped.

I think they prefer "Talibaners"  
 
TheCommodore
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:07 am

Quoting AI121 (Reply 5):
This is major setback for US forces.

Its a set back for all concerned, NOT just the US.

Or do you believe that the US are the only ones fighting.... seems so by your comment.  
Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Few things are simple, but Afghanistan is the model of riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

Your not wrong there Baroque!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
That's the problem. Islam is not just a religion but a comprehensive set of laws which govern your personal life (that's the religion part), but also politics, economics, civil rights, warfare and international relations.

  
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
photopilot
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:17 am

LOL, here comes the Hollywood made for TV movie.

The Great Escape II
 
Newark727
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:05 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

What do you mean "not allowed to interrogate them?"

Is waterboarding really that important to you?
 
Springbok747
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:24 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
Next time, just nuke the place and be done with it, eh?

Why? Nuking that place will achieve nothing. The US and coalition should not have invaded that god-forsaken hell hole in the first place. What has 10 years of war, at the cost of billions of $ and countless lives achieved? Not a damn thing.
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Dreadnought
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:24 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 25):
Why? Nuking that place will achieve nothing. The US and coalition should not have invaded that god-forsaken hell hole in the first place. What has 10 years of war, at the cost of billions of $ and countless lives achieved? Not a damn thing

So you are saying that we should not have responded to 9/11? The Taliban government was harboring those who did it and rendered themselves accomplices. We should have done nothing and left them alone, giving the Islamists a huge victory with no retribution, giving them just as much a recruitment rally call as the Afghan and the Iraq wars ever did (because they would have bandied it as proof that Allah was indeed on their side, striking a blow against the west and rendering them powerless to respond).

We responded with a politically correct war. Try to win hearts and minds while fighting at the same time. We've been doing that since Vietnam, and it's been a constant failure.

When Marines landed on Saipan in 1945, they set up a civilian prisoner encampment that quickly attracted a couple thousand Japanese and others wanting US food and protection. When word of this reached Emperor Hirohito - who contrary to the myth was in full charge of the war - he became alarmed that radio interviews of the well-treated prisoners broadcast to Japan would subvert his people's will to fight.

As meticulously documented by historian Herbert Bix in 'Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan', the Emperor issued an order for all Japanese civilians on Saipan to commit suicide. The order included the promise that, although the civilians were of low caste, their suicide would grant them a status in heaven equal to those honored soldiers who died in combat for their Emperor.

And that is why on what is now known as Suicide Cliff, over 20,000 Japanese civilians jumped to their deaths to comply with their fascist emperor's desire - mothers flinging their babies off the cliff first or in their arms as they jumped.

Anyone reluctant or refused, such as the Okinawan or Korean slaves, were shoved off at gunpoint by the Japanese soldiers. Then the soldiers themselves proceeded to hurl themselves into the ocean to drown. Of the 31,000 Japanese soldiers on Saipan , the Marines killed 25,000, 5,000 jumped off Banzai Cliff, and only the remaining thousand were taken prisoner.

The extent of this demented fanaticism is very hard for any civilized mind to fathom - especially when it is devoted not to anything noble but barbarian evil instead. The vast brutalities inflicted by the Japanese on their conquered and colonized peoples of China , Korea , the Philippines , and throughout their "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" was a hideously depraved horror.

And they were willing to fight to the death to defend it. So they had to be nuked. The only way to put an end to the Japanese barbarian horror was unimaginably colossal destruction against which they had no defense whatever. Nuking Japan was not a matter of justice, revenge, or it getting what it deserved. It was the only way to end the Japanese dementia.

And it worked - for the Japanese. They stopped being barbarians and started being civilized. They achieved more prosperity - and peace - than they ever knew, or could have achieved had they continued fighting and not been nuked. The shock of getting nuked is responsible.

We achieved this because we were determined to achieve victory. Victory without apologies. Despite perennial liberal demands we do so, America and its government has never apologized for nuking Japan ... Hopefully, America never will.

We have forgotten this lesson of history. If we ever have to go into another country again, it must be with every bit of might and fury we can muster, and in accordance to the Geneva Conventions, if the enemy hides behind civilians they are still a legitimate target, and the civilian deaths is the responsibility of those who attempted to use them as human shields. Once they are all dead or they surrender unconditionally, then we can think of winning hearts and minds.
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Newark727
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:35 am

Wait, so the correct response to 9/11, an act of murder against innocent civilians, would have been to deploy a nuclear bomb and not even pretend to avoid killing even more innocent civilians?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:29 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 27):
Wait, so the correct response to 9/11, an act of murder against innocent civilians, would have been to deploy a nuclear bomb and not even pretend to avoid killing even more innocent civilians?

A nuke might not have been necessary, but if the last decade has taught us anything is that the Afghans (and others) were not worth all the effort we put into trying to save as many as we could while our troops put themselves in extra peril for their sake. To hell with all of 'em. We should have carpet-bombed them into the 10th century - which in their case would have been an improvement. Any survivors (and Islamists watching from other countries) would then think twice before pissing us off.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Springbok747
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:34 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
So you are saying that we should not have responded to 9/11?

Wait....how was the "shock and awe" campaign a response to 9/11? Was it meant to intimidate the Taliban? If so..it clearly didn't work. The whole point of invading Afghanistan was to find Bin Laden. That did not happen either. The US should have withdrawn and concentrated their efforts on finding him..not waging an all out war trying to get the Taliban out of power.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
And it worked - for the Japanese. They stopped being barbarians and started being civilized.

The reason it worked was because the Japanese were not extremist Muslims following barbaric, medieval laws, plus they had an education.

And nuking Afghanistan will not work, unless you wipe out the entire population..including millions of innocent people who have nothing to do with the Taliban..because that is what needs to happen to win this so-called war on terror, because that is the problem - we don't know who is and who isn't the Taliban.
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Dreadnought
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:38 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 29):

And nuking Afghanistan will not work, unless you wipe out the entire population

After 10 years of this crap, that doesn't bother me as much as it would have in 2001.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
cws818
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:41 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 29):

And nuking Afghanistan will not work, unless you wipe out the entire population

After 10 years of this crap, that doesn't bother me as much as it would have in 2001.

This would be even more disturbing if you were in a position of decision-making authority.
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TheCommodore
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:58 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
After 10 years of this crap, that doesn't bother me as much as it would have in 2001.

You cant really mean that ?  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!

What sort of humanitarian nightmare would this cause the entire world, including the US.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Superfly
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:52 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):


Excellent post and recap on World history.

My concern is if they're caught, Attorney General Eric Holder will slap them with misdemeanor and fine them for trespassing.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
Next time, just nuke the place and be done with it, eh?


  
I have no problem with that.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 27):
killing even more innocent civilians?


What is with all of this concern for innocent civilians in Afghanistan?
There were millions of innocent civilians that were killed in during World War I, World War II, The American Civil War and many other wars.
Being behind enemy lines really suck and that is a sad part reality war.
Time to pull our troops out and nuke the place.
Bring back the Concorde
 
cws818
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:12 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
What is with all of this concern for innocent civilians in Afghanistan?
There were millions of innocent civilians that were killed in during World War I, World War II, The American Civil War and many other wars.

Yes, there were millions of civilians killed in numerous wars - all the more reason to avoid adding to that sad and unfortunate tally. Just because the civilians in question are in Afghanistan does not make them or their lives any less valuable than those who died in Europe and America.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
Time to pull our troops out and nuke the place.

Actually, no.
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
Springbok747
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:06 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
Time to pull our troops out and nuke the place.

Actually just pull the troops out. Nuking will not solve anything.

The vast majority of Afghans are not enemy combatants. Thus, using nukes in Afghanistan would amount to one of the greatest mass murders in history. This would cause the US to be internationally condemned as a dangerous loose cannon and a terrorist state and you guys would probably lose most or all of your allies, and foreign nations currently friendly or neutral toward the US might even form defensive coalitions to protect themselves against the US.
Also, a lot more than just one nuke would have to be used to cover all of Afghanistan. The use of so many nukes would create an environmental disaster, with radioactive fallout affecting countries neighboring Afghanistan and even beyond. I don't think they'd appreciate it very much, and the US can forget about them being their (the US's) allies in the future.

And just imagine..all those countries around Afghanistan - Pakistan, India, China - have nuclear weapons of their own. You think they'd keep silent if the US was bombing the shit out of Afghanistan killing millions of people?!
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Superfly
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:29 am

Quoting cws818 (Reply 34):
Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 35):

You have a better solution?
Bring back the Concorde
 
cws818
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:49 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 36):
Quoting cws818 (Reply 34):
Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 35):

You have a better solution?

Yes: avoiding genocide.
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
baroque
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:50 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 19):
a matter of fact my cousin is brining his gf who is from Egypt over for coffee tonight

And my equally predictable response is to ask if missing the "g" out of bringing, is a subtle hint we should take your story with a bucketful of salt solution?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):
Quoting AI121 (Reply 5):
This is major setback for US forces.

Its a set back for all concerned, NOT just the US.

Or do you believe that the US are the only ones fighting.... seems so by your comment

Seems that way at times doesn't it?

Quoting photopilot (Reply 23):
LOL, here comes the Hollywood made for TV movie.

The Great Escape II

My first thought too, but rapidly displaced by a second one as this jail break is actually smaller than an earlier one from the same camp. However, it is true, The Great Escape is beginning to pale. I wonder how many of the escapees will be shot while trying to continue their escape. I did like the story they were looking for folk who were barefoot - should be great for rounding up another bunch of poor villagers who had nothing to do with the case.

The great unknown that will remain an unknown is how many of the escapees really were Taliban. The Talibs are not going to say any were not and the Afghans and US are not going to admit that proportion acurately either. But most imprisonment records for Afghanistan all the way from Bagram to GITMO suggest that many would have been collected almost by accident - unlucky bystanders, or even more unlucky rivals (or members of another tribe) who were simply sold to the police as Taliban.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 27):
Wait, so the correct response to 9/11, an act of murder against innocent civilians, would have been to deploy a nuclear bomb and not even pretend to avoid killing even more innocent civilians?

Have to hope that the "Newarks" prevail over the "Dreadnoughts and Flies" in the US body politic. How is it possible for the illusion to persist in some countries - actually I only know of it persisting in the US but maybe it does persist elsewhere - that nuclear weapons would be a way forward. Has the film "Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb" lost all its power these days?
For those who have forgotten this epic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Strangelove
And going back to our history lesson, some of those characters were not entirely fictional, one probably being modelled after Curtis Le May. Le May was almost certainly wrong when he wrote (from Wiki)
Evidence of LeMay's thinking is that in his 1965 autobiography, co-written with MacKinlay Kantor, LeMay is quoted as saying his response to North Vietnam would be to demand that "they’ve got to draw in their horns and stop their aggression, or we’re going to bomb them back into the Stone Age. And we would shove them back into the Stone Age with Air power or Naval power–not with ground forces."
Le May was wrong then, and Dreadnought and Fly are wrong now.
We (and as TheCommodore points out "WE" is indeed plural) are in this mess. There were those who pointed out the dangers back in 2001, but those dangers were ignored and now WE need to solve the problems that we have in part created.

Let me ask D and F a question, how many in the CIA and the US military could speak Pashtun when they invaded Afghanistan back in 2001? And whatever possessed them to put themselves in the power of one warlord to fight a bunch of other warlords?
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:51 am

Quoting cws818 (Reply 37):
Yes: avoiding genocide.

Is it OK for our servicemen & women and our allies servicemen & women continue to be picked off like sitting ducks?
These people showed their true colors after that Pastor in Florida burned a Koran.
Bring back the Concorde
 
cws818
Posts: 824
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:42 am

RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:53 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):
These people showed their true colors after that Pastor in Florida burned a Koran.

Not all of them did. Some did - a small minority. Condemning the entire population of a country for the actions of a few is not productive.
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
cws818
Posts: 824
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:42 am

RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:54 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):

Quoting cws818 (Reply 37):
Yes: avoiding genocide.

Is it OK for our servicemen & women and our allies servicemen & women continue to be picked off like sitting ducks?

Of course not, but it is also not an excuse for genocide.
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
TheCommodore
Topic Author
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:04 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
Seems that way at times doesn't it?

It sure dose   

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
I wonder how many of the escapees will be shot while trying to continue their escape.

Supposedly they have re caught 60 according to the SMH

http://www.smh.com.au/world/taliban-...t-great-escape-20110427-1dvzk.html

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
I did like the story they were looking for folk who were barefoot - should be great for rounding up another bunch of poor villagers who had nothing to do with the case.

That's exactly what I thought too. Here we go, making the same mistake all over again.   


Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
The great unknown that will remain an unknown is how many of the escapees really were Taliban.

One recaptured escapee has reportedly told authorities the he wasn't eve a Taliban, and the others ordered him out or the would shoot him. So as you say Baroque, we will never know how many are/were real "Taliban"

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
Have to hope that the "Newarks" prevail over the "Dreadnoughts and Flies" in the US body politic. How is it possible for the illusion to persist in some countries - actually I only know of it persisting in the US but maybe it does persist elsewhere - that nuclear weapons would be a way forward. Has the film "Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb" lost all its power these days?
For those who have forgotten this epic:

Well said !

You certainly have a way with words.   

[Edited 2011-04-27 00:06:08]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Superfly
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Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:05 am

I haven't read a solution yet.

Quoting cws818 (Reply 40):
Not all of them did. Some did - a small minority. Condemning the entire population of a country for the actions of a few is not productive.


Did any of their people do anything to stop it?
Since it as such a "small minority", the vast majority of the so-called 'peace loving' Muslim majority should have been able to stop the beheadings.

Quoting cws818 (Reply 41):
Of course not, but it is also not an excuse for genocide.


The term genocide is inaccurate. Afghanistan isn't a 1 race society. It's a mult-ethnic nation with a mix of Pashtun, Tajik, Hazara, Uzbek, Aimak, Turkmen, Baloch and small handful of other groups. All of which have populations outside of Afghanistan as well.
Bring back the Concorde
 
cws818
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RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:09 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):
I haven't read a solution yet.

Nor have I.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):

Quoting cws818 (Reply 41):
Of course not, but it is also not an excuse for genocide.


The term genocide is inaccurate. Afghanistan isn't a 1 race society. It's a mult-ethnic nation with a mix of Pashtun, Tajik, Hazara, Uzbek, Aimak, Turkmen, Baloch and small handful of other groups. All of which have populations outside of Afghanistan as well.

Very well. Let's substitute the term "extermination of a population," if you prefer.

[Edited 2011-04-27 00:09:47]

[Edited 2011-04-27 00:10:15]
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
cws818
Posts: 824
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:42 am

RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:13 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):

Quoting cws818 (Reply 40):
Not all of them did. Some did - a small minority. Condemning the entire population of a country for the actions of a few is not productive.


Did any of their people do anything to stop it?
Since it as such a "small minority", the vast majority of the so-called 'peace loving' Muslim majority should have been able to stop the beheadings.

You assume not only that the majority would have known what was going to happen beforehand, but also that they would be in the right place at the right time to prevent it. I'm not sure it is the case.

I am also unsure why you wrote: "so-called 'peace loving' Muslim majority."
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
Springbok747
Posts: 4007
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:13 am

RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:33 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 36):
You have a better solution?

Did you even read what I wrote? Pull the troops out. Protect your borders. There is absolutely NO need for Americans/coalition soldiers to be dying there.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):
Is it OK for our servicemen & women and our allies servicemen & women continue to be picked off like sitting ducks?

So nuking the entire population of a country and alienating most of the world to the US is your answer?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):
I haven't read a solution yet.

Pull the troops out. Protect your borders.
אני תומך בישראל
 
TheCommodore
Topic Author
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:38 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 46):
So nuking the entire population of a country and alienating most of the world to the US is your answer?

One of these has already occurred, probably doesn't much matter about the other point.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 46):
Pull the troops out. Protect your borders.

  

[Edited 2011-04-27 00:50:22]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:09 am

Quoting cws818 (Reply 44):
Very well. Let's substitute the term "extermination of a population," if you prefer.


It's called war.
We dropped the bomb on Japan.
Japan managed to be very productive superpower and there are millions of Japanese today. South Korea and China didn't seem to mind either. Hardly a genocide or extermination.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 46):
Pull the troops out. Protect your borders.


Sounds good to me but other countries aren't doing such a good job protecting their borders from these terrorist. Eventually the US would be the only nation protecting it's borders against the rest of the world that's been taken over by radical Islam. Killing off the problem at the source is a better idea as well as protecting our borders.

[Edited 2011-04-27 01:26:39]

[Edited 2011-04-27 01:27:50]
Bring back the Concorde
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10889
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: The Great Escape! 500 Taliban Tunnel Out Of Jail

Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:22 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
And my equally predictable response is to ask if missing the "g" out of bringing, is a subtle hint we should take your story with a bucketful of salt solution?

Ahh yes of course if my post has a typo of course it should be rendered not credible.   

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
The great unknown that will remain an unknown is how many of the escapees really were Taliban. The Talibs are not going to say any were not and the Afghans and US are not going to admit that proportion acurately


Talk about a predictable response.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
But most imprisonment records for Afghanistan all the way from Bagram to GITMO suggest that many would have been collected almost by accident - unlucky bystanders, or even more unlucky rivals (or members of another tribe) who were simply sold to the police as Taliban.

Source please.

Quoting cws818 (Reply 40):
Not all of them did. Some did - a small minority. Condemning the entire population of a country for the actions of a few is not productive.

Yet these things just continue to happen.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 42):
One recaptured escapee has reportedly told authorities the he wasn't eve a Taliban, and the others ordered him out or the would shoot him. So as you say Baroque, we will never know how many are/were real "Taliban"

Source?

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 46):
Did you even read what I wrote? Pull the troops out. Protect your borders. There is absolutely NO need for Americans/coalition soldiers to be dying there.

Unfortunately it has come to that point. They have shown they don't want peace and don't want to do anything counter to the radicals. Any US servicemen or woman's life is not worth it and a nuke is so much better.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 46):
So nuking the entire population of a country and alienating most of the world to the US is your answer?

Unfortunately with countries like NK and Iran showing they are not going to listen and continue down the wrong path what do you suggest wait till they do it first?
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!

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