janmnastami
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Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:58 pm

Quote:

CNN - Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's youngest son -- Saif al-Arab Gadhafi --was killed after a NATO airstrike, a spokesman for Libya's government said Sunday at a press conference.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/af...dhafi.son.killed/index.html?hpt=T1


He was killed together with three Gadhafi's grandchildren.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 12:02 am

Of course we have not taken sides in this conflict...
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mham001
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 12:24 am

When do we start on Assad?
 
LAXintl
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 12:51 am

  

Saif al-Arab along with his older brother Saif al-Islam was probably the most moderate and Westernized of the family having spent much of his life in Germany and having business interest in places like Italy (part owner of Juventus).

I wonder if NATO again is going to claim the Gaddafi's were not intended targets.  


A very dirty game the West is playing in Libya....
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NIKV69
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 1:14 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Of course we have not taken sides in this conflict...

Obama made it clear he believed Khadaffi should go because he very foolishily felt that Khadaffi would do the same as Mubarak. Well the rest is history.

All I can say is it's a step in the right direction and closer to doing what has to be done.
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mham001
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 1:19 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 4):
All I can say is it's a step in the right direction and closer to doing what has to be done.

Syria's uprising has more documented deaths than Khadaffi did when Obama let France and Britain talk him into this mess. Shouldn't we be bombing Assad also?
 
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 1:19 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
A very dirty game the West is playing in Libya....

And the shelling and sniping of civilians by the Libyan government is fair? War is a nasty game, and sometimes it needs to be solved one JDAM at a time.
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LAXintl
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 1:41 am

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 6):
And the shelling and sniping of civilians by the Libyan government is fair?


There was a lawless mutiny, which the government rightfully can (and should) go after.
I would expect no less in any other nation if people violently act against the government. What would the US, or any "modern" nation do if you have people running off with military weaponry and targeting the government?


But Libya has oil, and the European are tripping over themselves to get a part of its riches, which sadly makes it a global interest unlike Syria which many fewer frankly care about.
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 1:50 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 4):
All I can say is it's a step in the right direction and closer to doing what has to be done.

How the hell is killing his son and grandchildren a step in the right direction? NATO is committing cold-blooded murder..which is no different that what NATO claimed Gadaffi was doing against his people.
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NIKV69
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 1:53 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 5):
Syria's uprising has more documented deaths than Khadaffi did when Obama let France and Britain talk him into this mess. Shouldn't we be bombing Assad also?

No, personally I don't want to get involved at all. If the people really want a change and their leader is evil let them take him out. If they need money fine but what Obama did in Libya was a huge error. Let us just hope Khadaffi's son dying means we have a chance to end this without troops.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
But Libya has oil, and the European are tripping over themselves to get a part of its riches, which sadly makes it a global interest unlike Syria which many fewer frankly care about.

Very true.
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 2:03 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 8):
How the hell is killing his son and grandchildren a step in the right direction? NATO is committing cold-blooded murder..which is no different that what NATO claimed Gadaffi was doing against his people.

The Libyan official who announced Saif al-Arab's death stated that Col. Gadaffi was also at the bombed compound, but had escaped unharmed. If true, this would be the likely explanation for why the compound was targeted, and would make it quite a legitimate target (in my opinion).
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CometII
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 2:14 am

The three grandkids is tragic as they were innocents, but if Gaddafi cared a darn about them he would never have them be anywhere near them since everyone knows he is a marked man. So to blame NATO solely is ridiculous, it is obvious the man cares about no one, neither his people or even his family, much less will he care about the rest of the world at this point and if he could would unleash terror worldwide.

The dye has been cast and killing him is the only way out now.

Also, while I agree that what is going on in Syria is tragic, the fact we cannot act there is not a reason not to act in Libya. Obviously we (the USA, Europe, the west), don't have unlimited wealth and capabilities... but the inability to always act does not mean we should NEVER act. Obama put it well in his speech a few weeks ago,

As an analogy, if there was a horrible disease with two strains and people were dying and a cure was found for one of the strains, would we hold back giving out the cure because we don't have a cure for the other strain, and just let everyone die because we could not cure everyone?
 
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 2:38 am

Quoting CometII (Reply 12):
The three grandkids is tragic as they were innocents, but if Gaddafi cared a darn about them he would never have them be anywhere near them since everyone knows he is a marked man. So to blame NATO solely is ridiculous, it is obvious the man cares about no one, neither his people or even his family, much less will he care about the rest of the world at this point and if he could would unleash terror worldwide.

I agree that those kids should not have been anywhere near Gadhafi. However, I am saddened that Gadhafi was not killed in this. He is a skunk, and his running days are numbered. I want him to bleed for what he did to PA 103.
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ltbewr
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 3:47 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 13):
agree that those kids should not have been anywhere near Gadhafi. However, I am saddened that Gadhafi was not killed in this. He is a skunk, and his running days are numbered. I want him to bleed for what he did to PA 103.

Uh, Gadhafi supported the terror attack on PA 103 due to the bombing of his compound in April 1986, also killing innocent family members but somehow missing him. Targeting for assination, as is the case here, is not a good idea. It just enhances the risks to our President Obama and other national leaders in Europe and elsewhere by pissing off the intended targets. Look,Gadhafi is not a young man, he will probably die in a few years anyway, it might be better to ignore him, although supporting legitiment oppositoin.

As to Syria, I am concerned that if the Assad family goes, then who takes over? It could lead to an even more anti-Israel and anti-Christian government there, the last think Israel and the USA wants to see.
 
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 4:44 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Saif al-Arab along with his older brother Saif al-Islam was probably the most moderate and Westernized of the family having spent much of his life in Germany and having business interest in places like Italy (part owner of Juventus).

Lets be honest here, no matter how ''westernized'' he was, Saif would still have ruled with an iron fist, and would have used a ruthless security force to silence all opposition. Eliminating the Gadhaf' family altogether is the only logical and fair solution.....
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wn700driver
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 5:29 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):

There was a lawless mutiny, which the government rightfully can (and should) go after.

No undemocratically elected gov't has any right to exist, support, or defend itself, full stop. Some of our so called allies clearly fall under this category, as well, as illegitimacy knows no sides. Any attempt to defend themselves is an unmitigatedly criminal action.

Our modern society hinges on the premise that no government anywhere, has any inherent right to exist; to include "defending" itself once it has gone beyond what is acceptable standard where its own citizens are concerned...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):

I would expect no less in any other nation if people violently act against the government.

If the government was thoroughly evil and corrupt, rotting from the head back, any attempt to preserve it as is is indeed a prosecutable offense.

Malignant tumors probably think they have a right or reason to exist too. It doesn't mean they can be tolerated. We don't, for a variety of reasons, often have an opportunity to get on board with the well earned death of a dictatorship. In fact we often support totally illegitimate and criminal enterprises like Saudi Arabia, for instance. But when there is a chance to correct something that awful, we should at least be supportive of that effort. After all, if a certain European power hadn't done the same for us 235 years ago, where would we be?
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TheCol
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 7:38 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Saif al-Arab along with his older brother Saif al-Islam was probably the most moderate and Westernized of the family having spent much of his life in Germany and having business interest in places like Italy (part owner of Juventus).

If they were so moderate, then what were they doing in the vicinity of Gaddafi?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 5):

I think you are forgetting that Syria is a proxy state of Iran. Unless you want a full out war in the Middle East, with the other side being backed by Russia and China, then there is nothing that can be done.

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 6):

  

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
There was a lawless mutiny, which the government rightfully can (and should) go after.
Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it.
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The citizens of Libya have the right to fight tyranny and establish a democratic regime.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
or any "modern" nation

Since when was Libya modern?

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 8):

Gaddafi is a marked man. His family knew the risks of associating with him, and suffered the consequences.

Quoting CometII (Reply 12):
The three grandkids is tragic as they were innocents, but if Gaddafi cared a darn about them he would never have them be anywhere near them since everyone knows he is a marked man. So to blame NATO solely is ridiculous, it is obvious the man cares about no one, neither his people or even his family, much less will he care about the rest of the world at this point and if he could would unleash terror worldwide.

  
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 8:19 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
A very dirty game the West is playing in Libya....

Yep. NATO can take full responsibility for any and all retribution taken on those who got unnecessarily involved in Libya.

They should have stayed well clear of the situation - "it's better the devil you know". If Gaddafi goes then he'll only be replaced by a new regime just as bad or even worse than Gaddafi...
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wn700driver
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 8:49 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 18):
If Gaddafi goes then he'll only be replaced by a new regime just as bad or even worse than Gaddafi...

This is indeed a very real concern. Personally, I think the only surefire way to curtail that is through a temporary and benign intervention. The problem is that ever since the US got real damned lucky trying that one out with Germany & Japan (and even then only circumstantially, some would argue...) we seem to think that that will work everywhere. Iraq & Afghanistan seem to think otherwise though... Maybe the rest of the world can get this one right? I don't know.

I do know that we owe to the people fighting this thing to see that they win it. Because if they don't, Mommar will go positively psycho on the survivors...
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na
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 8:58 am

NATO says they bombed a communication HQ tonight. From what they said weeks ago, such thing cant be existing anymore. Anyway, if its true and if Ghaddafis son´s family was there its collateral damage, just a normal event in war.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
A very dirty game the West is playing in Libya....

Well, I tend to agree. And the answer why is of cause known to everyone, a word with three letters. Same why the West doesnt interfere in Zimbabwe or other places which have dictators which are probably even worse than Ghaddafi.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
When do we start on Assad?

If NATO would be "honest" as in Libya, soon. But they have already said its much more difficult and different than Libya, so not possible. Sure, thats true, much less oil.
 
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 9:04 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 10):
The Libyan official who announced Saif al-Arab's death stated that Col. Gadaffi was also at the bombed compound, but had escaped unharmed. If true, this would be the likely explanation for why the compound was targeted, and would make it quite a legitimate target (in my opinion).

From what I understand the Libyan desert is littered with underground bunkers that Gadaffi can hide in. Makes it difficult to take him out.
 
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 9:07 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 18):
If Gaddafi goes then he'll only be replaced by a new regime just as bad or even worse than Gaddafi...

Bingo. I was reading that one of the high ranking rebel commanders actually fought against the US in Afghanistan. So I'm guessing they will be no better than Gaddafi, and the US and its allies have been terrible at regime change..just look at the chaos that is Afghanistan and Iraq, both led by governments that don't have any real powers.
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ronglimeng
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 12:59 pm

I'm just wondering about the guy who pickled off the load onto the Gadhafi compound. Knowing that he killed 3 grandchildren might make the job seem less glamourous than it was the day before.
 
windy95
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 1:38 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 8):
How the hell is killing his son and grandchildren a step in the right direction? NATO is committing cold-blooded murder..which is no different that what NATO claimed Gadaffi was doing against his people



Correct..The war for oil is getting uglier by the minute. I thought the no fly zone was put in to stop atrocities.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 9):
Let us just hope Khadaffi's son dying means we have a chance to end this without troops.



I am sure the grand kids appreciate that.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
But Libya has oil, and the European are tripping over themselves to get a part of its riches, which sadly makes it a global interest unlike Syria which many fewer frankly care about.



Bingo

Quoting CometII (Reply 12):
The three grandkids is tragic as they were innocents, but if Gaddafi cared a darn about them he would never have them be anywhere near them since everyone knows he is a marked man. So to blame NATO solely is ridiculous



Sorry but NATO is solely to blame. This supposed no fly zone to end killing has prolonged the killing. And NATO picking sides makes it all the more disingenuous.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 1:56 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 22):
Bingo. I was reading that one of the high ranking rebel commanders actually fought against the US in Afghanistan. So I'm guessing they will be no better than Gaddafi, and the US and its allies have been terrible at regime change..just look at the chaos that is Afghanistan and Iraq, both led by governments that don't have any real powers.

The irony is the guy they killed was one guy who if he had inherited the country may have opened it up to the west once Gaddafi died of old age.

nosy bastards couldn't stop interfering. If they hadn't interfered it would have stayed a domestic civil war a la USA circa 1861 instead of becoming an international war. Crazy Senile Gaddafi was no longer a threat to the outside world, but they have now made him a threat again. He's crazy, and probably now grief stricken, that's not a good combination and makes him both dangerous and unpredictable. When in that state he could blow up aircraft or set a biological dirty bomb off in London/Paris as retaliation. NATO governments have knowingly put their citizens at risk in order to gain control over a few more barrels of oil. That's negligent at best.

They've obviously never read the story of Pandora's box.
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NIKV69
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 2:10 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 8):
How the hell is killing his son and grandchildren a step in the right direction? NATO is committing cold-blooded murder..which is no different that what NATO claimed Gadaffi was doing against his people.

Cry me a river, Khadaffi made his plays. Like killing everyone on PA103. I could care less who is involved in the collateral damage. What were they doing in his bunker during a war? If you are going to play with fire sometimes you get burned.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 18):
They should have stayed well clear of the situation - "it's better the devil you know". If Gaddafi goes then he'll only be replaced by a new regime just as bad or even worse than Gaddafi...

Islam has been crying out that the radicals are the small minority well Egypt and soon Libya is where we will see. There is no telling who will be leading these countries but they are being given the chance to prove otherwise.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 19):
I do know that we owe to the people fighting this thing to see that they win it. Because if they don't, Mommar will go positively psycho on the survivors...

He is going to do it regardless at this point. His family being killed will only incite him more now. I am just hoping he doesn't have the tools to launch a terror attack either in Europe or the US. We are damned both ways now and it's in everyones best interest to kill him ASAP.

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 23):
I'm just wondering about the guy who pickled off the load onto the Gadhafi compound. Knowing that he killed 3 grandchildren might make the job seem less glamourous than it was the day before.

Everyone wondered who the Enola Gay's crew felt after they did their job. They are soldiers. Comes with the terrority.
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Acheron
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 3:20 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 14):
Lets be honest here, no matter how ''westernized'' he was, Saif would still have ruled with an iron fist, and would have used a ruthless security force to silence all opposition. Eliminating the Gadhaf' family altogether is the only logical and fair solution.....
Quoting TheCol (Reply 16):
The citizens of Libya have the right to fight tyranny and establish a democratic regime.

I find it amusing how some people are naive(too bad using a more apropiate term would get my message deleted) enough to think that somehow democracy will stablish there instead of another muslim theocracy backed by either Saudi Arabia(you know, the same people who propped up the Talibans in the first place, before Pakistan took charge) or Iran.

Apparently NATO went full retard and is not realizing that they are actually making the life easier for religious extremists to take over entire countries.

But hey, apparently some think that democracy and freedom will magically kick in societies that are simply not used to it and for which is an alien concept to their overall culture 
And apparently this somehow will also happen when you have the Saudi Arabian trying to prop up wahhabi theocracies everywhere they can or with the Iranian trying to prop up anti-western theocracies as well.

Also, unicorns and mermaids are real.

Quoting na (Reply 19):
was there its collateral damage, just a normal event in war.

I wonder if you would be so casual about it if it was your family. Probably not.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 3:24 pm

What many don't realize is that his family probably wasn't there willingly. He's a dictator, I'm pretty sure if he wanted them there, they were. Can't blame the family. Maybe they didn't even know he was targeted? You know propaganda. I know collateral damage happens, but this whole Libya situation feels fishy. I guess I feel like many on here pre-Iraq...
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Quokka
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 3:37 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):
What were they doing in his bunker during a war?

If you had read the reports on the attack you would know that they were not in Gaddafi's residence but that of his son in a residential area. If they had been in the Azzizia compound it would have been justifiable without question simply for the reason that the compound is a command centre. But the attack on a private residence is at odds with the claim that "we are not targeting individuals." Not that I oppose an attempt to take out Gaddafi.

It is sad when children are killed in wars but this inevitably happens. Arguments about Conventions, mandates and the rest miss the point. In a civil war there are no children whatever conventions say as has been demonstrated in every war , conventional or civil, since the signing of such conventions - the firestorms in Hamburg, Nagosaki and countless other "missions" prove that.

I dropped out of earlier discussions of Libya because of my personal connections and because of what was happening to my friends there. For days I was not sure about the safety of the son of one of my friends. The debate in the forums were being conducted at an abstract level that sometimes showed no willingness to comprehend that real people were involved and, as usual, it appeared that the more militant responses either in favour or opposed to a blockade being imposed were from people who had little or no experience in warfare. The louder a person shrieked the less military experience they probably had.

Some of the most loudest and most shrill arguments about collateral damage and not caring about it come from those who I suspect have probably never lived under a dictatorship. It is easy to urge opposition if you live in the west. You and your family will not be arrested, tortured and imprisoned, if not killed. So you can safely condemn those who did not actively oppose the dictator. But those who did put their families as well as themselves on the line, are told "I don't care about collateral damage." Those who don't suffer Collateral damage or friendly fire can always justify it. War is cruel, war is unjust, war is blind. But it always involves people willingly or unwillingly. They can not all be judged the same.

Equally, those who seek to escape the carnage are vilified and barriers are erected to stop them escaping. Look at the arguments put forward by some in so-called civilised countries that condemn violence while advocating sinking boats in the water and shooting the occupants. Such arguments of hatred are actually published in these forums! They condemn violence by advocating the murder of its victims.

I truly hope that the people of Libya and in other countries suffering under dictators are able to emancipate themselves, whether with or despite the "aid" of the west. Aid that is unwillingly given is not aid at all and at the end of the day, no people can be truly free unless they free themselves.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 4:02 pm

I think NATO is overstepping its boundaries here. The original intent was to enforce a no-fly zone and protect civilians. I don't see how bombing Ghaddafi's houses (or killing his family) will solve anything. While there's a ground stalemate, Libya's air forces are no longer in a position to kill people. All NATO is doing is making China and Russia less cooperative in case of future military actions.
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NIKV69
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 5:17 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 29):
I think NATO is overstepping its boundaries here. The original intent was to enforce a no-fly zone and protect civilians. I don't see how bombing Ghaddafi's houses (or killing his family) will solve anything. While there's a ground stalemate, Libya's air forces are no longer in a position to kill people. All NATO is doing is making China and Russia less cooperative in case of future military actions

Good point. Problem was there are rebels involved that want to kill Khadaffi and they are now being viewed as innocent bystanders and not enemies of the state. As evil as the state is. As far as China is concerned some would say Communism and a dicatorship are one in the same though Communism is just a more watered down version.
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TheCol
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 6:39 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 26):
I find it amusing how some people are naive(too bad using a more apropiate term would get my message deleted) enough to think that somehow democracy will stablish there instead of another muslim theocracy backed by either Saudi Arabia(you know, the same people who propped up the Talibans in the first place, before Pakistan took charge) or Iran.

I'm not totally oblivious to the fact that this may come around and bite us in the ass later. That being said, it would be foolish to assume that the majority of the opposition is in favor of trading one brutal dictatorship for an equally brutal theocracy. The success of establishing a democratic regime rides on the civilians, not the rebel commanders. Since NATO is committed at this point, all we can do is let the chips fall where they may and hope for the best.
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Acheron
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 9:39 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 31):
I'm not totally oblivious to the fact that this may come around and bite us in the ass later. That being said, it would be foolish to assume that the majority of the opposition is in favor of trading one brutal dictatorship for an equally brutal theocracy.

Doesn't matter what the majority thinks. The ones who succeed are usually those with money, the guns and more backing than any of the other confronting factions.

I doubt the Iranians had a theocracy of nutjobs in mind when they got rid of that another nutcase, Reza Pahlavi.
 
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 10:11 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 16):
The citizens of Libya have the right to fight tyranny and establish a democratic regime.

If think you're kidding yourself if you think a democratic regime will take over.
 
AR385
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 10:18 pm

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 24):
The irony is the guy they killed was one guy who if he had inherited the country may have opened it up to the west once Gaddafi died of old age.

Don´t be so sure about that. The animal that rules Syria is a doctor, so at some point he must have had to have sworn the Hippocratic odd. He also lived in Britain for a long time, getting his specialty in Ophtalmology there. He is also married to British wife, born and raised in Britain. Can you get more "Westernized " than that? I´m not saying you are wrong, I´m just saying there are no guarantees when your family are ruthless, sadistic dictators.

A bit of Trivia here. In 2006 in Germany, Saif El Arab had a problem with a bouncer in a German night club when his girlfriend started to disrobe inside the club. They kicked both out. So this "innocent" and "Westerniezed" of Gaddafi´s offspring came back and threatened to Thwor acid in the face of the bouncer. Once the complaint was filed by the bounce witht the police, Gaddaffi put Saif in the roster of those personnel in the embassy with diplomatic immunity.

In 2008 an investgation was launched on evidence that he had transported an assault rifle from Paris to Munich in the trunk of his car. A budding arms dealer perhaps?

This guy was no Gadafis´s "nice chap" son as some believe.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 24):
He's crazy, and probably now grief stricken

Crazy? He´s been crazy for decades. Grief stricken? A man like that, under siege, I can´t be sure he can feel grief.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 25):
Cry me a river, Khadaffi made his plays. Like killing everyone on PA103. I could care less who is involved in the collateral damage. What were they doing in his bunker during a war? If you are going to play with fire sometimes you get burned.

You and I never see eye to eye, but here, I support your statement fully. I still remember PA 103, just in case anyone wants to mention "innocents". And yes, while Gaddafi destroyed a plane full of innocents and traumatized for a long time to come an innocent village in Scotland because Reagan bombed him in´86, Reagan bombed him because in the 80´s Gaddafi was one of the main supporters of terrorism in the Middle East

The straw that broke the Camel´s back was the Achille Lauro hijack and murder of Leon Klinghoffer, financed in part by Gaddafi, although executed by the PLO, and that bomb that went off in that German night club frequented by American Soldiers and civilians, which was an operation entirely orchestrated by Gadaffi.

I´m surprised how all those innocents are forgotten.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 26):
I wonder if you would be so casual about it if it was your family. Probably not.

They should not have been there. It´s a tragedy, but sadly, predictable.

Besides, there is no proof that his son, and his three grandkids were killed, because no one has been allowed to see the faces of the bodies. Only Lybia´s religious authority has only said that they have seen the face of the son, but no one has seen the others.

I would not be surprised if this was just another maneuver by Gaddafi to gather some sympathy. Besides, he was also in the destroyed residence, which was reduced to beyond rubble, according to witnesses, and ended up unhurt? Come on. No one inside that house would have survived.

[Edited 2011-05-01 15:45:56]
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 10:45 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 25):
Cry me a river, Khadaffi made his plays. Like killing everyone on PA103.

He was more or less accepted back into the "pack" by the west, including your own leader. He has even been invited to address the UN. God knows why.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 25):
What were they doing in his bunker during a war? If you are going to play with fire sometimes you get burned.

Go read the reports, they were NOT in Gaddafis bunker, it was the sons house.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
I´m surprised how all those innocents are forgotten.

Simply amazing isn't it. Short memories indeed.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
TheCol
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 10:46 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 32):
The ones who succeed are usually those with money, the guns and more backing than any of the other confronting factions.

That's why arming and funding the entire opposition totally defeats the purpose of NATO's presence there. That's where the mistake was made. As for Gaddafi and family, he doomed them all a long time ago. Some of the resulting consequences may be tragic, but that doesn't exonerate Gaddafi or shift the blame to anyone else.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):
If think you're kidding yourself if you think a democratic regime will take over.

Again, I'm not totally oblivious to the fact that we, the West, have opened up a can of worms.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Sun May 01, 2011 11:47 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
A very dirty game the West is playing in Libya....

What if some foreign power came to bomb the White House, the Elysée Palace or 10 Downing Street and killed some of our own leaders family members?

Khadafy has not attacked any of our nations.

A very dirty game the West is playing in Libya.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
NIKV69
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Mon May 02, 2011 12:10 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
You and I never see eye to eye, but here, I support your statement fully. I still remember PA 103, just in case anyone wants to mention "innocents". And yes, while Gaddafi destroyed a plane full of innocents and traumatized for a long time to come an innocent village in Scotland because Reagan bombed him in´86, Reagan bombed him because in the 80´s Gaddafi was one of the main supporters of terrorism in the Middle East

This was just the means to an end. People like Khadaffi are fine till the people finally say enough is enough. I got to give him some credit for staying and fighting it out. I had him pegged for someone who would grab his family and a few billion he had hidden under his mattress and take Chavez up on some exile. He could have lived the rest of his life on easy street but now will be dying like a dog just like what happened to his son.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
The straw that broke the Camel´s back was the Achille Lauro hijack and murder of Leon Klinghoffer, financed in part by Gaddafi, although executed by the PLO, and that bomb that went off in that German night club frequented by American Soldiers and civilians, which was an operation entirely orchestrated by Gadaffi.

If I remember correctly the Lauro hijack was a splinter group of the PLO and not them officially though the mindset was the same. I also hated the fact that Italy dropped the ball and let the people that killed Klinghoffer free after Reagan almost shot them out of the sky and made them land in Italy.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
I´m surprised how all those innocents are forgotten

Well you have to remember that there is a portion of Europe that sympathizes with the terrorists because they feel we are to blame because we support Israel. Not surprising that the innocents of the terrorist is put ahead of the innocents of the west.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 35):
He was more or less accepted back into the "pack" by the west, including your own leader. He has even been invited to address the UN. God knows why.

Can't disagree here but any violence against him without total provovation would never be tolerated.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 35):
Go read the reports, they were NOT in Gaddafis bunker, it was the sons house.

Still in the hot zone in a situation that is getting if not has gotten out of control. Sorry but I am not feeling any remorse. At least Mubarak's kin was smart enough to flee early on.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 37):
What if some foreign power came to bomb the White House, the Elysée Palace or 10 Downing Street and killed some of our own leaders family members?

Khadafy has not attacked any of our nations.

Just when I thought I have read something really lacking in any knowledge you surprise me. For obvious reasons I won't go in to what Khadaffi has done.

Oh BTW terrorists and dictators don't attack other nations leaders or their family members. They are cowards and kill civilians.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
AR385
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Mon May 02, 2011 12:20 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 38):
Khadafy has not attacked any of our nations.

Boy, I´m going to call that statement "navieté" otherwise I´ll be banned probably.

Let´s me give you a reminder

1. Gaddafi was a major financier of the "Black September Movement" which perpetrated the Munich massacre at the 1972 Summer Olympics.

2. The Irish Navy intercepted in 1973 the vessel Claudia in Irish territorial waters carrying Soviet arms from Libya to the IRA.

3.In 1976 after attacks by the IRA, Gaddafi announced that they had sent the bombs and materiel to the Irish revolutionaries so that the British will pay the price for their past deeds.

4. In 1980 a Libyan agent attempted to assassinate dissident Faisal Zagallai, a doctoral student at the University of Colorado, Boulder. The bullets left Zagallai partially blinded.[

5. In April 1984, Communications intercepted by MI5 show that Tripoli ordered its diplomats to direct violence against the demonstrators outside the embassy. Libyan diplomats shot at 11 people and killed British policewoman Yvonne Fletcher.

6. On 5 April 1986, Libyan agents bombed "La Belle" nightclub in West Berlin, killing three people and injuring 229 people who were spending evening there.

7. In 1987 the French stopped a ship delivering a 150 ton Libyan arms shipment to European terrorist groups.

8. Libya was accused in the 1988 bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland.

9. Libya also bombed UTA Flight 772 in 1979 in revenge against the French for supporting Chad against the expansionist projects of Libya toward Chad. The wife of the ambassador of the US to Chad was killed in this attack.

So where exactly do you get that Gaddafi has not attacked any of whatever "our nations" mean?

[Edited 2011-05-01 17:25:02]
 
Asturias
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Mon May 02, 2011 1:03 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 26):
Apparently NATO went full retard and is not realizing that they are actually making the life easier for religious extremists to take over entire countries.

Yeah, it seems NATO isn't operating on all cylinders, so to speak.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 29):
I think NATO is overstepping its boundaries here.

NATO has, no doubt, overstepped its boundaries. It may be time to dismantle NATO.

asturias
Tonight we fly
 
ronglimeng
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Mon May 02, 2011 1:53 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 25):
Everyone wondered who the Enola Gay's crew felt after they did their job. They are soldiers. Comes with the terrority.



I take your point, but we generally don't consider airmen to be be assassins. Their killing is anonymous, not like a Mafia "clip". But targetted killing?

I suppose up to a later stage in WW II it might have been useful to assassinate Adolf Hilter but later on with his irrational behaviour he was doing us more good than harm. The only successful targetted killing of WW II that I can think of was Heydrich in 1942. Did that really do any good?

On further thought, there was Yamamato. But none of his children died with him.
 
cws818
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Mon May 02, 2011 3:37 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 37):
Khadafy has not attacked any of our nations.

Well, not lately. But he has in the past.
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
baroque
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Mon May 02, 2011 4:01 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 32):
I doubt the Iranians had a theocracy of nutjobs in mind when they got rid of that another nutcase, Reza Pahlavi.

Slightly off topic but not really, I worked with a couple of Iranian women in the US in 1977 and they were desperate to get rid of the Shah. When it was pointed out to them, the only groups likely to fill the vacuum would be either the communists or the religious "nutjobs" and they refused to see the danger. Either would be preferable they thought. I often wonder what became of them in 1979.

But back on topic, I think that the lessons of the late 70s from Iran will not have been lost on those rebelling against authority in the Arab world in 2011. Clearly a theocracy is possible, but I just listened to an explanation from a certain President how the recent success was because his state was united under God. So there are a few of those theocracies around, though less so in Spain I notice!!   
 
wn700driver
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Mon May 02, 2011 7:50 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 43):

Slightly off topic but not really, I worked with a couple of Iranian women in the US in 1977 and they were desperate to get rid of the Shah. When it was pointed out to them, the only groups likely to fill the vacuum would be either the communists or the religious "nutjobs" and they refused to see the danger. Either would be preferable they thought. I often wonder what became of them in 1979.

I think we all get it. But "there might be something worse around the corner" is hardly an excuse to allow a brutal criminal enterprise to just continue on. And in this case, we have another problem. If Moamar somehow comes out of this still in power, what are the odds that he'll just look upon his population and say "So, we're cool, right?" Yeah, not going to happen. This guy will make a mad dash to the library to look up old Adolf & Joe's Greatest Purging Hits.

This whole situation is like a having a pregnant girlfriend. We've bought into it already, whether we like it or not. We (NATO) own at least part of this baby, and walking away really isn't an option, so it's really irrelevant to act as though it is.


Anyway, on a social note, is anyone else grown weary of the whole "These poor stupid camel herders can't take of themselves and will only elect a religious nutocracy if we don't leave them alone" bs? Seriously, the Lybians might just come out of this ok, people. But they definitelywon't if we just throw them back to the wolves...
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Mon May 02, 2011 8:33 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 44):
Anyway, on a social note, is anyone else grown weary of the whole "These poor stupid camel herders can't take of themselves and will only elect a religious nutocracy if we don't leave them alone" bs? Seriously, the Libyans might just come out of this ok, people. But they definitely won't if we just throw them back to the wolves...

I don't think that they are stupid. They live in their own country, They are adults let them sort themselves out like everyone else has to. It's part of life.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
Acheron
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Mon May 02, 2011 3:18 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 44):
Anyway, on a social note, is anyone else grown weary of the whole "These poor stupid camel herders can't take of themselves and will only elect a religious nutocracy if we don't leave them alone" bs?

Then it probably ranks up there in the BS meter with those who think that people who have lived under one form of opressive regime or another for hundred of years, will suddenly embrace democracy and western values and the holy spirit of Justin Bieber.
Specially with two different pack of wolves in the shape of religious nutjobs(saudi arabia and iran) trying to increase their influence in the region.  
 
baroque
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Mon May 02, 2011 3:41 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 44):
I think we all get it. But "there might be something worse around the corner" is hardly an excuse to allow a brutal criminal enterprise to just continue on.

I may well be wrong (it has happened!!!) but there is a difference with 1970s Iran and 2011 Libya. It must have seemed that the Shah's government could be altered to make it more acceptable. It was doing well in economic, and educational terms, much much better than the current lot.

Gaddafi has never done well and he does show indications of being sub-clinically neurotic or what you and I would call stark raving mad. So redeeming his regime is a bridge too far as it were.

The difference between the approach to Libya and Syria might well not be the oil that is so commonly summoned like a genie out of a barrel presumably, but a hope that Assad's regime might be redeemable. While it appears he is in charge, it seems to be a constant struggle between him and an older regime.

So the west might be taking a breath and making a considered decision. With Syria, lets give the current devil another chance. With Gaddafi, you have had your chance and the opposition looks more promising. Little is known of them, but I will bet that the intelligence services know or think they know a lot more than is being said. There, makes me sound like an optimist.

But the alternatives to the Shah were KNOWN to be awful. Mind you not as awful as the Ayatollahs have turned out, but they were known to be awful. SAVAK has a lot to answer for, and who trained SAVAK?
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Mon May 02, 2011 5:40 pm

Its sad that people has to die in wars. But Ghaddafis son is hardly a civilian out minding his own business...

Personally I reckon that now when the west has gotten involved there is no way we can let this linger without the desired result. Thats a loss of face and not good in that part of the world.
Let them hate us as long as they fear us...
The longer this drags on the more likely it is that some rogue states will start meddling and interfering. Hello Iran we have already seen what Iranian money have done in Bahrain and Yemen.

Ghaddafi is one of the worst men to rule a country on this planet.
He was a man that financed so many of the absolute horrible wars that ravaged West Africa during the past decade. he financiered a lot of the blood diamonds, he organised rebel groups, armed them in countries where there were no rebels before his agents came. West Africa is full of local militia commanders because of this man.

He supported terrorist groups all around the globe from the main financier and backer of the islamist groups in the Philippines to nutters in India you name it Ghaddafi was there but in Africa he made the wars happen, wars that were some of the bloodiest we saw during the last 20 years.

The only thing I actually dont think he was responsible for were Lockerbie, I put that one on the iranians account. Tit for tat for the Iranair flight.

I shed no tear whatsoever when he is removed from power, I hope they don't kill him but instead bring him to a court where he can answer for all he has done.
His sons the nice chaps and not at all military targets, people must realise that after the west have gone in like this there will not be a Ghaddafi running Libya. No son, no uncle no great grandfather.
And his sons being such angels, yeah like the one that got Libya and the EU into diplomatic issues after a row with the swiss.
His sons are all nutjobs, spoilt nutjobs that know no limits. One playing football in serie A and so forth. Those are not people you want running a country. And with what Ghaddafi has done over the last 30 years nothing that comes after can be as deadly for the world.
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
 
wn700driver
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RE: Gadhafi's Son Killed In Nato Airstrike

Mon May 02, 2011 11:26 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 46):

Then it probably ranks up there in the BS meter with those who think that people who have lived under one form of opressive regime or another for hundred of years, will suddenly embrace democracy and western values and the holy spirit of Justin Bieber.
Specially with two different pack of wolves in the shape of religious nutjobs(saudi arabia and iran) trying to increase their influence in the region.

Indeed there's no guarantee that this will end well. But I just don't buy into this near certainty that they'll end up like Iran...

And if you're saying here also that the gov'ts of Iran and Saudi need to go, yes, they do. The full account of just how much damage those two completely evil regimes have caused may never be fully known. And it chaps ass to no end how since one of them is a business partner, they're somehow legitimate and get a free pass. Disgusting.

Anyway, best of luck to Libya there...

Quoting Baroque (Reply 47):
It was doing well in economic, and educational terms, much much better than the current lot.

Yeah well, that's what we get for hanging the Shah out to dry without any clear plan in place. Not saying we should do the same in Libya now, but we (NATO and the US) need to remain available to assist in any logistical matters as these guys finish up their revolution. If we just leave them hanging now, well, we know the story of Saddam and Co vs the Kurds in 1991/2. I'm always amazed how that little chapter of American history escapes the attention it earned. I really don't want to see that happen again, hence my stance that we are well past the point of no return WRT Gaddafi Inc...
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear

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