Maverick623
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PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Thu May 05, 2011 5:19 am

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...fficer-youtube-shove-brk04-ON.html

Fair use excerpt:

Quote:
The video shows a girl in a physical altercation with a woman, whom Crump identified as the girl's mother, in a parking lot. The girl strikes the woman in the face and then walks away. An officer responding to the scene approaches her from behind as she is walking, shoves her into a wall and knocks her off her feet. He handcuffs her and then walks her to a police vehicle.

The video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOvncjLzPLo


Personally, I think the little twit had it coming. She had just shown her propensity for violence, and she was drunk. Also, the fact that NOBODY, not even the camera guy or the girl, reported it says volumes (it was a city employee who saw the video on YouTube who first brought it to light).

I recommend watching the whole video. I first skipped to the 1:40 mark where she gets clobbered, and thought it was way out of line. After watching the rest of it.... not so much. Also, we don't see what she did or said to the cop as he was first approaching. My guess is some smart-ass remark.
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airtran737
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Thu May 05, 2011 5:27 am

The cop should have pulled out his baton and given her some stick time.
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Maverick623
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Thu May 05, 2011 5:39 am

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 1):
The cop should have pulled out his baton and given her some stick time.

If he did, I probably would be calling for criminal charges. As far as I'm concerned, cops don't need to be dealing out "street justice". That just makes things worse in the long run.

When I say she had it coming, it was because she was being violent towards her mother and non-compliant with the cops. Quite often in situations like these, the perp will continue their behavior on the responding officers, especially when they're intoxicated. You'd be surprised how strong and slippery people can be when they're basically numb to pain.
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NIKV69
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Thu May 05, 2011 11:00 am

Hmmmm this one will be close. He asked her to come back and she tells him to f off. Though I would have given her more commands instead of rushing her like that. If she still resisted then schools out. In a town like PHX he will probably be given the benefit of the doubt.
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RussianJet
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Thu May 05, 2011 12:47 pm

It was over the top, but to be honest it just looked clumsy more than anything else. Might teach her to damn well stand still when a cop tells you to.
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Thu May 05, 2011 1:28 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 4):
it just looked clumsy more than anything else

That's what I think. Looks like he made a lunge for her, and kind of reeled back when she fell.

I didn't see any excessive force. What did she expect to happen, running from the police?
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fxramper
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Thu May 05, 2011 6:15 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
Though I would have given her more commands instead of rushing her like that.

Not necessary.   

She could have been armed. Little twit got what she deserved. She seemed totally fine after he cuffed her up and got her off the ground. Wounded prided after she watches herself on youtube.
 
janmnastami
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Thu May 05, 2011 6:16 pm

The cop should have arrested the girl without shoving her. His behaviour has been excessive, IMO.
 
crazyfoo88
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Thu May 05, 2011 7:31 pm

For a change I actually agree with the outcome here. Cop was calm beforehand, asked her to come back. She turned and started to flee. What else do you expect?

End of story I think.

Only worrysome thing I think is she hit her head pretty hard, almost looked like she blacked out. Hope they took her to the hospital first before processing her.
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fr8mech
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Thu May 05, 2011 11:16 pm

Video has been removed, but I'll make this statement:

When a police officer tells you to do something, comply immediately and chances are the situation will not escalate.

If anyone can find a link to the video, I'd like to see it.
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Maverick623
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Thu May 05, 2011 11:34 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
Video has been removed

Due to a TOS violation, probably because the girl is a minor (which I still think is bullcrap).

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
If anyone can find a link to the video, I'd like to see it.
http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region...r-investigated-for-excessive-force

There's a few clips on the left side of the page.
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TheCommodore
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Thu May 05, 2011 11:43 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 5):
running from the police?

Looked like she was calmly walking away to me, not running.

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 7):
The cop should have arrested the girl without shoving her. His behaviour has been excessive, IMO.

I agree, his actions were way over the top, as is shown by the way she hits her head after he pushes her down, in a VERY clumsy manner too.

Quoting crazyfoo88 (Reply 8):
She turned and started to flee.

Walked away, hardly fleeing.

Drunk people need to be handled in a different way from sober people, if police aren't trained in this during their cadet-ship/probation period, then they need to improve it, and soon.
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aa61hvy
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 12:14 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
Walked away, hardly fleeing.

Fleeing means leaving the scene. When someone leaves a scene when an officer tells them to stop, they have the right to do what it takes to detain them.
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TheCommodore
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 1:16 am

Quoting aa61hvy (Reply 12):
Fleeing means leaving the scene.

Hardley !

Here is the definition for the word "flee"

To run, or move away quickly from the scene.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flee

Quoting aa61hvy (Reply 12):
they have the right to do what it takes to detain them.

That is not carte blanch for the use of excessive force in order to "detain"

The cop is clearly using excessive force. The woman was drunk !
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Maverick623
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 1:39 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
Looked like she was calmly walking away to me, not running.

She was, but that's not really that important. She was given a lawful order, and she didn't obey. After already smacking her mother around, she needed to be dealt with accordingly, which means assuming she won't hesitate to attack a police officer as well.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):

I agree, his actions were way over the top, as is shown by the way she hits her head after he pushes her down, in a VERY clumsy manner too.

The shove was clumsy, but it wasn't "over the top". Remember, the cops had literally just seen her punch her mom in the face.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):

Drunk people need to be handled in a different way from sober people

Indeed: you need to be stronger with them. Drunk people cannot be reasoned with. Once they start acting up, the only way to stop them is to physically restrain them. Usually that means putting them on the ground.

And again, the fact is she just committed assault. Drunk or not, the second you don't comply with orders after doing that, you can expect to be forcefully put on the ground.

In the end, the hit looked a lot worse than it actually was. She suffered no injuries, and none of the people present filed any sort of complaint (not even the cameraman).

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 13):

Here is the definition for the word "flee"

Semantics. She was trying to leave after being told to stay. The legal consequences are similar, if not the same.
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NIKV69
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 1:47 am

.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
She was, but that's not really that important. She was given a lawful order, and she didn't obey. After already smacking her mother around, she needed to be dealt with accordingly, which means assuming she won't hesitate to attack a police officer as well.

She cussed him out too but still I think the officer was a little aggressive. Ultimately he will be cleared if anything happens but police are supposed to be professionals and that didn't look profressional to me. It looked heavy handed.
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TheCommodore
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 1:49 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
She was given a lawful order,

Remember, she was drunk.

We are not talking about giving a command to a "normal" sober person now are we ?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
The shove was clumsy, but it wasn't "over the top". Remember, the cops had literally just seen her punch her mom in the face.

That would, IMHO, be argued very strenuously in court if hes had been knocked unconscious (because the cop pushed her "into" a wall !

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
Drunk people cannot be reasoned with.

So how do you expect them to Obey commands give by police officers then ?????

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
Once they start acting up, the only way to stop them is to physically restrain them. Usually that means putting them on the ground.

Absolutely, she wasn't going anywhere, he didn't need to push her into a wall to "stop" her. He could have just grabbed her and puled her arm behind her back. I mean really, did you see the size of this cop, what really was the threat ?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
And again, the fact is she just committed assault. Drunk or not, the second you don't comply with orders after doing that, you can expect to be forcefully put on the ground.

But you just said this..

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
Drunk people cannot be reasoned with.
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airtran737
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 1:53 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):
Remember, she was drunk.

Being drunk isn't an excuse for being a stupid asshole.
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WarRI1
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 2:00 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 15):
She cussed him out too but still I think the officer was a little aggressive. Ultimately he will be cleared if anything happens but police are supposed to be professionals and that didn't look profressional to me. It looked heavy handed.

I agree, it did not look professional to me either. You are supposed to stop, restrain, not shove like a school kid. Poor response from this officer. Some one tells you to FO, it does not call for that, you are supposed to be trained to handle it.
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Maverick623
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 2:00 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):

Remember, she was drunk.

We are not talking about giving a command to a "normal" sober person now are we ?

Doesn't make the order any less lawful, nor does it excuse her from disobeying it.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):

That would, IMHO, be argued very strenuously in court if hes had been knocked unconscious (because the cop pushed her "into" a wall !

I think you missed the part where she just committed a violent felony in front of the police. The tackle used was appropriate given what she had just done.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):

So how do you expect them to Obey commands give by police officers then ?????

I usually don't. But nonetheless, a lawful order was given, and she wasn't complying.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):
He could have just grabbed her and puled her arm behind her back.

At which point she pulls out a knife with her other arm and tries to stab the officer. And before you say she didn't have a knife.... nobody knew that until after the arrest.

I mean, seriously, that's like saying a cop should always try to shoot for the arm or leg (as opposed to center mass).

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):
I mean really, did you see the size of this cop, what really was the threat ?

Oh, I dunno, the fact that she was a) drunk and b) violent?
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Maverick623
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 2:11 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 18):
You are supposed to stop, restrain, not shove like a school kid.

His shove is a valid method of stopping someone.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 18):
Some one tells you to FO, it does not call for that, you are supposed to be trained to handle it.

I'm assuming you weren't able to watch the video yet. His level of force was not because of her words, but her actions and mental state. She had already assaulted her mom in front of the cops (and apparently a teacher before that), and she was intoxicated.

Again, he was clumsy with the shove, probably because he wasn't expecting her to turn around like that. That doesn't mean it's excessive.
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TheCommodore
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 2:23 am

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 1):
The cop should have pulled out his baton and given her some stick time.

So you advocate bashing drunks do you ?

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 17):
Being drunk isn't an excuse for being a stupid asshole.

Never said it was did I ?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 15):
She cussed him out too but still I think the officer was a little aggressive. Ultimately he will be cleared if anything happens but police are supposed to be professionals and that didn't look profressional to me. It looked heavy handed.

  

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 18):
I agree, it did not look professional to me either. You are supposed to stop, restrain, not shove like a school kid. Poor response from this officer. Some one tells you to FO, it does not call for that, you are supposed to be trained to handle it.

  

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 19):
Doesn't make the order any less lawful, nor does it excuse her from disobeying it.

Im not saying it dose, al II am saying is you can give ALL the orders/commands you want, if the person is drunk your not going to get the response that you desire are you, generally speaking

If the cop had half a brain and or training then he should have known that.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 19):
At which point she pulls out a knife with her other arm and tries to stab the officer. And before you say she didn't have a knife.... nobody knew that until after the arrest.

Isn't that why we train police officers, just for these very situations. To tackle and disarm offenders. Again, who's the drunk wobbly one, who has the upper hand here, are you saying she has it over the cop, I don't think so ?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
His shove is a valid method of stopping someone.

Not if it causes "undue" injury it isn't .

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
That doesn't mean it's excessive.

Maverick623, come on, you saw that way she fell into the wall and hit her head.
It is perhaps lucky that she was drunk, because if a sober person had fallen like that, I'm pretty sure the outcome would not have been good.

[Edited 2011-05-05 19:24:31]
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WarRI1
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 2:38 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
His shove is a valid method of stopping someone.

Shoveing from the rear was not how I was trained to apprehend someone, of course that was many years ago. New age? Not professional to me.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
I'm assuming you weren't able to watch the video yet. His level of force was not because of her words, but her actions and mental state. She had already assaulted her mom in front of the cops (and apparently a teacher before that), and she was intoxicated.

I have now watched the video twice. The officer could have fractured her skull very easily, cement type wall, certainly a cement sidewalk. It was too much force applied. He could easily be facing serious charges, for serious injuries.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
Again, he was clumsy with the shove, probably because he wasn't expecting her to turn around like that. That doesn't mean it's excessive

No question, she was intoxicated, mentally distrought, something not right. One could not tell, if she responded, to him, or not, one thing is for sure, she did not even get a chance to react, that is why she looked like a rag doll after the violent shove. If I remember correctly, when ,my children were younger, and possibly still today, for some parents, we always warned about the possible effects of unwarned, or violent shoving. Dangerous, still. You would not want to kill, or cripple someone for public drunkeness, the crime does not fit the punishment.

[Edited 2011-05-05 19:42:30]
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stasisLAX
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 4:31 am

The press here in Phoenix seems to be saying it was "excessive force" on the part of the police. The image of the police force here is very poor recently, since the Phoenix chief of police was forced into "comfortable retirement" after he was caught lying about kidnapping numbers (and calling Phoenix the kidnapping capital of the Western world or some such crap) to the federal law enforcement agencies in an attempt to increase federal funding for the city's police force.   

[Edited 2011-05-05 21:32:17]
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fr8mech
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 5:21 am

Wow, this one is close, but did anyone else see her reach up to her shirt as she turned to the officer? From the officer's point of view, what might that look like, especially after she had just assaukted someone else?

I don't know...I'm going to side with the officer. His primamry job (after his own safety) is to control, defuse or stabilize the situation as quickly as possible, using the force necessary to do that.

He accomplished that task. Did he use too much force? It's a close call, but I think he was within the bounds.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 18):
I agree, it did not look professional to me either. You are supposed to stop, restrain, not shove like a school kid.

If that 'school kid' had immediately complied with his order to stop, she wouldn't have been physically handled. would she? And shoving is a perfectly OK way to stop someone.
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Maverick623
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 6:21 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
if the person is drunk your not going to get the response that you desire are you, generally speaking

So we're in agreement there. Let's close that argument.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):

If the cop had half a brain and or training then he should have known that.

Doesn't change the fact that he still has to give some sort of verbal command.

I particularly don't appreciate your personal judgment and training quality of someone you've never seen before.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):

Isn't that why we train police officers, just for these very situations. To tackle and disarm offenders

Which is exactly what he did. Again, I fail to see why we're arguing about this, when we're in general agreement as to what usually happens in these situations.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
Again, who's the drunk wobbly one, who has the upper hand here, are you saying she has it over the cop, I don't think so ?

She didn't look very wobbly to me. In fact, she proved pretty adept and not only slipping out of her mother's grasp, but then being able to get a few punches in and walk away while looking at her phone.

Drunk =/= wobbly or defenseless.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):

Not if it causes "undue" injury it isn't .

Again, she was not injured.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):

Maverick623, come on, you saw that way she fell into the wall and hit her head.

Like I said: it looks worse than it actually was.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 22):

Shoveing from the rear was not how I was trained to apprehend someone

I'm willing to bet you were trained to apprehend someone from behind by putting them into a chokehold and throwing them to the ground.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 22):
for serious injuries.

Again, she was not injured at all, let alone seriously.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 23):
The image of the police force here is very poor recently

Not for nothing. There's a huge amount of corruption in many agencies, mostly MCSO and Phoenix. There was that cop that was shot with his own shotgun last year... and they still won't say if it was a suicide or a murder (my bet is a murder by a fellow officer). I myself had a pretty bad experience with Mesa PD a few weeks ago.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24):
Did he use too much force? It's a close call, but I think he was within the bounds.

It's on the upper end of what should have been used, but there's no reason to even think about criminal charges.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
TheCommodore
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 6:51 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
I particularly don't appreciate your personal judgment and training quality of someone you've never seen before.

I'm not judging him any more than your defending him, really.

The video is/was there for all to see, and "judging" by most comments on this thread, there is a consensus that it was not handled well.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
She didn't look very wobbly to me. In fact, she proved pretty adept and not only slipping out of her mother's grasp, but then being able to get a few punches in and walk away while looking at her phone.

She looked like a beached whale for Gods sake, floundering all over the place. Not someone that I would describe as slipping out of anything really.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
but then being able to get a few punches in and walk away while looking at her phone.

I saw uncoordinated whacks, rather than well thrown, controlled punches, that's what I saw.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
Like I said: it looks worse than it actually was.

And your right. But what I was saying was, it may not have ended so well, it could well have ended with her being injured. Others here have said the same thing, why cant you see that.

Even the cop stumbles after he has pushed into the wall and only just manages to right himself afterwards. He could have fallen on to her and caused more injury, even to himself. I cant believe that a policeman would be trained to tackle anyone like that.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
I'm willing to bet you were trained to apprehend someone from behind by putting them into a chokehold and throwing them to the ground.

And if he was, so what ?

Surely that is far more preferable way of trying to stop someone that what this cop did, and that was to push her straight into the wall.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
It's on the upper end of what should have been used, but there's no reason to even think about criminal charges.

Please forgive me, but are you the judge and jury.

I mean that sort of call is really open to interpretation i'd dare say.
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janmnastami
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 7:33 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 19):
At which point she pulls out a knife with her other arm and tries to stab the officer. And before you say she didn't have a knife.... nobody knew that until after the arrest.

Therefore, why didn't the cop shoot her? She could have had a gun.

If a policeman isn't able to handle a young drunk girl, he's unfit to do his job.
 
Danny
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 5:52 pm

Typically American excessive use of force by policeman who thinks he is also prosecutor and judge in one person. But judging from the responses above this is acceptable over there.
 
Maverick623
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 11:24 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 26):

She looked like a beached whale for Gods sake, floundering all over the place. Not someone that I would describe as slipping out of anything really.

Go back and watch the whole video again. You can clearly see her escape from her mother's grasp, and then land a few smacks to her face. And then she struts away just as sure footed as you or I right now.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 26):
and "judging" by most comments on this thread, there is a consensus that it was not handled well.

From those that stated their opinion, I count 6 supporting the officer, 2 that criticize him, and 2 that are on the fence (i.e., the shove was technically legal, but could have been handled better).

Quoting Danny (Reply 28):
Typically American excessive use of force by policeman who thinks he is also prosecutor and judge in one person. But judging from the responses above this is acceptable over there.

I take it you've never been to the US.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Danny
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Fri May 06, 2011 11:35 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 29):

Quoting Danny (Reply 28):
Typically American excessive use of force by policeman who thinks he is also prosecutor and judge in one person. But judging from the responses above this is acceptable over there.

I take it you've never been to the US.

Lived there for a few years and traveled multiple times.
 
roadrunner165
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sat May 07, 2011 4:05 am

Sorry - - I did not read all the responses in this thread. However looking at the video, specifically the movement of the officers feet it appears he might have lost his footing on a sewer grate/curb. I don't see anything alarming in this video.
 
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sat May 07, 2011 6:21 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 30):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 29):

Quoting Danny (Reply 28):
Typically American excessive use of force by policeman who thinks he is also prosecutor and judge in one person. But judging from the responses above this is acceptable over there.

I take it you've never been to the US.

Lived there for a few years and traveled multiple times.

So Danny, tell us - precisely how often were you beaten by the police while living in the U.S. ?

Wait - you were NEVER beaten by law enforcement officers while here? How is that possible? I mean, it's "typical" for excessive force to be applied by the police here, right?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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Danny
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sat May 07, 2011 8:49 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 32):
Wait - you were NEVER beaten by law enforcement officers while here?

How do you know? Oh, you don't.
 
YokoTsuno
Posts: 319
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sat May 07, 2011 9:00 am

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 17):
Being drunk isn't an excuse for being a stupid asshole.
You main there exists alcohol which makes you behave sensible when intoxicated. That's cool. You should convince this manufacturer to sell this here in Singapore, there's a huge market for such products here  
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 13):
The cop is clearly using excessive force. The woman was drunk !
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 22):
Shoveing from the rear was not how I was trained to apprehend someone, of course that was many years ago. New age? Not professional to me
I agree. This is pretty amateurish and brutal.

Off the record. I often watch the Crime & Investigation Channel which features a reality program on female police officers. I never had an encounter with US policemen and don't know how representative this behaviour is. The only thing I can say is that the general police attitude in this show is pretty authoritarian and excessive. Even minor traffic offences are treated as they are dealing with Ted Bundy.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sat May 07, 2011 10:01 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 33):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 32):
Wait - you were NEVER beaten by law enforcement officers while here?

How do you know? Oh, you don't.

Sure I do. Because if you had, you'd have mentioned it in your reply number 30 instead of limiting it to "lived there a few years and traveled multiple times."
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Maverick623
Topic Author
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sat May 07, 2011 4:56 pm

Quoting YokoTsuno (Reply 34):
I agree. This is pretty amateurish and brutal.

And this is based on:

Quoting YokoTsuno (Reply 34):
often watch the Crime & Investigation Channel

So, in other words you've never had to deal with a violent, drunk person.

Quoting YokoTsuno (Reply 34):
Even minor traffic offences are treated as they are dealing with Ted Bundy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvP0xvs5DxE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAS2dblM6jQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLSNLeoab8c

In the last 2 years, the Phoenix area alone has had 3 cops killed during traffic stops for minor offenses. You simply never know when someone is going to pull a gun out and shoot you.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
TheCommodore
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sat May 07, 2011 10:00 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 29):
Go back and watch the whole video again. You can clearly see her escape from her mother's grasp, and then land a few smacks to her face. And then she struts away just as sure footed as you or I right now.

This was a 15 year old girl, and the police office had to do this to her.

This is also not the first case of police brutality from Phoenix, as was mentioned earlier on in the thread.

Here is a Web site, devoted to "watching" out for what goes on with the Phoenix Police force, and boy, there is plenty on there to read to keep you busy for hours.

They must have some past "form" then I'd think, if there is a web site set up by volunteers to "watch" things.

http://www.phoenixcopwatch.org/

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 29):
You can clearly see her escape from her mother's grasp, and then land a few smacks to her face.

Not denying any of that. I just don't think she is in control as much as you think she is. She rolls around all over the ground while her mother tries to hang on and placate her, then as the mother finally lets go, the daughter gets "some" whacks in, but they are with arms swinging all over the place, they are not controlled punches that you expect to see from a sober agile person.

Quoting YokoTsuno (Reply 34):
Off the record. I often watch the Crime & Investigation Channel which features a reality program on female police officers. I never had an encounter with US policemen and don't know how representative this behaviour is. The only thing I can say is that the general police attitude in this show is pretty authoritarian and excessive. Even minor traffic offences are treated as they are dealing with Ted Bundy.

Yes, we get these types of programs here too, I change the channel now to something more educational. Cant stand watching small dicked cops act like gung oh cowboys for a few mins of fame on TV

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 36):
In the last 2 years, the Phoenix area alone has had 3 cops killed during traffic stops for minor offenses. You simply never know when someone is going to pull a gun out and shoot you.

Yeah well, from what I read on the above web site, they don't have to many supporters out there !

Who's fault could that be I wonder ?

[Edited 2011-05-07 15:01:22]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
YokoTsuno
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sat May 07, 2011 11:55 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 36):
And this is based on:

Based on arrests for shoplifting and the typical "drunk fight over a girlfriend" that I've seen here and other places in shops and discos.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 36):
So, in other words you've never had to deal with a violent, drunk person.

If you exclude my drunk, aggresive friend which I had to drag into his appartment , you're correct.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 36):
In the last 2 years, the Phoenix area alone has had 3 cops killed during traffic stops for minor offenses. You simply never know when someone is going to pull a gun out and shoot you.
I am getting into politics of other countries now, which is always a very bad idea, but what the heck isn't it about time then, for something to be done about gun control in the US and nip the problem in the bud, rather than "fix the symptoms" which in my humble opinion the root cause of such police behaviour.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sun May 08, 2011 1:45 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24):
If that 'school kid' had immediately complied with his order to stop, she wouldn't have been physically handled. would she? And shoving is a perfectly OK way to stop someone.

I did not call her a school kid, I said the Officer shoved like a school kid, which he did.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
I'm willing to bet you were trained to apprehend someone from behind by putting them into a chokehold and throwing them to the ground.



You are wrong, I carried a weapon, a nightstick, a set of cuffs, a slapjack, a flashlight, and a Claw. We were tought to use Judo Techniques. We were tought to subdue, not to use ones fists, we had tools, we were to use them. The claw was the most effective on drunk and mental patients. We were not tought to use chokeholds. There were different methods for men and women. A different age, but excessive force, was excessive force. We did not have shoulder radio's ,camera's and vests, nor cellphones. The radio was in the cruiser, you had to survive to get there and use it. One officer in a cruiser. We always held out hope for people to help, or call for help. A lot of them did in those days.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
itsjustme
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sun May 08, 2011 2:46 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
This was a 15 year old girl, and the police office had to do this to her.

Love the Monday Morning Quarterbacking going on. The quoted statement is one of my favorites. Commodore, I suggest you read the following story: http://www.theoaklandpress.com/artic...news/doc4957d0b720ca0151688365.txt It's about a suburban Detroit police officer who was brutally murdered by a teenager who was "only" 16 years old.

As is typical of these type of debates, none us were present. What we know is the suspect was fleeing the scene of a violent crime (she's been charged with aggravated assault). It's safe to assume commands were made by the pursuing officer for her to stop and she failed to comply. Further, we don't know what the dispatch information was. Was there a weapon mentioned? Was there possibility of a weapon mentioned? Under the circumstances, had I been the Phoenix officer, I would have acted in the same manner. The suspect knows I'm approaching so I've lost any element of surprise in taking her into custody. I want to subdue the suspect before she has the opportunity to flee or, worse, turn toward me. And finally, the arrest was effected without injury to the suspect or the officer. Good job.
 
RottenRay
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sun May 08, 2011 5:30 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
The shove was clumsy, but it wasn't "over the top".


It was VERY over-the-top. You don't roll into a minor altercation and simply shove someone into a wall to "investigate" the situation.

We assume we know whom attacked who in this instance - but what if the "girl" as we're calling her had been attacked by the the other female wearing the ID tag?

No shots fired, no sign of weapons.

It was essentially a wrestling match before PhxPD got there.

One suspect is walking away, so let's just brace her from behind and slam her head against a wall.

Just typical lazy Phoenix-style law enforcement - use whatever force is necessary to keep your overweight butt from having to walk a few feet more.

Maricopa county is generally in trouble with their enforcement policies, in particular Phoenix PD and the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office.

It's fun to ponder these situations, but if you put yourself in "first person" here, you stand a 50-50 chance of having part of your face scraped off against the stucco wall of a dying strip mall.

That's not what we pay these guys to do - we pay them to serve and protect.

How would you like to be treated, by someone who just arrived on the scene?


Cheers!
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sun May 08, 2011 5:46 am

Quoting rottenray (Reply 41):
Just typical lazy Phoenix-style law enforcement - use whatever force is necessary to keep your overweight butt from having to walk a few feet more.

Maricopa county is generally in trouble with their enforcement policies, in particular Phoenix PD and the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office.

And their somewhat gleeful support of SB1070 - perhaps this young women "looked illegal"....
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
fr8mech
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sun May 08, 2011 2:29 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 28):
Typically American excessive use of force by policeman who thinks he is also prosecutor and judge in one person. But judging from the responses above this is acceptable over there.

You know, I know quite a few police officers and count 2 amongst my closest friends and they would be appalled and insulted by that comment. But, they wouldn't hesitate, even for a second (knowing you made that statement) from putting themselves in harm's way to come to your aid if the situation presented itself.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 39):
I did not call her a school kid, I said the Officer shoved like a school kid, which he did.

Apologies. Regardless, had she instantly complied with the police officer's commands, she would not have been physically subdued.

Quoting rottenray (Reply 41):
That's not what we pay these guys to do - we pay them to serve and protect.

I saw the police officer serving and protecting the community by stopping someone that had just finished assaulting someone else....what did you see?

Quoting rottenray (Reply 41):
How would you like to be treated, by someone who just arrived on the scene?

Very good question. Put yourself in the officer's shoes. You just showed up on scene and saw the last few punches, slaps, whatever of a person on the ground and the person you SAW assaulting the other began to leave the scene. You order her to stop and she refuses to comply. What do you do? Let her go? Order her in a more stern voice or say "Simon says"?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sun May 08, 2011 5:00 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
but they are with arms swinging all over the place, they are not controlled punches that you expect to see from a sober agile person.

I give police officers quite a bit of leeway with how they deal with intoxicated people. Two police officers here were assaulted by a drunk guy a couple weeks ago near a bar and both ended up with broken bones. I think it's a little naive to say that people that are drunk aren't able to throw controlled punches, man or woman. Otherwise we wouldn't have hooliganism after european soccer matches now would we? There's a term for what happens to people when they are aggressive when drunk, dutch courage.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
TheCommodore
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sun May 08, 2011 10:15 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 44):
I think it's a little naive to say that people that are drunk aren't able to throw controlled punches, man or woman.

In the context that I was talking about was this fact.......

This was a drunk 15 year old girl, not a sumo wrestler or Muhamod Ali, and, as you can see clearly in the video, could only just manage to twist her way out of her Mothers grasp by rolling around on the ground and after a period of time, then staggers up, where she lets lose on her mother with the slaps etc

After this, she calmly walks away from the incident along the footpath, ignoring police commands for her to stop or return etc, granted this is not the recommended standard operating procedure for anyone asked by the police to stop, as one should always follow a police instruction, but she in not the worlds most dangerous person here, and did not need to be treated with the use of excessive force like that. She looks like she is almost unconscious, after the cop pushes her into the wall and she fall heavily to the ground

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 44):
There's a term for what happens to people when they are aggressive when drunk, dutch courage.

Even more reason why the cop should have realized his actions were way over the top in dealing with situation. If this cop can not subdue a 15 year old in a controlled manner, he needs to hang his gun up and call it a day.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
fr8mech
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sun May 08, 2011 11:10 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 45):
Even more reason why the cop should have realized his actions were way over the top in dealing with situation. If this cop can not subdue a 15 year old in a controlled manner, he needs to hang his gun up and call it a day.

Did he know she was 15? Did he know she was drunk? All he may have known was that she was attacking someone and then leaving the scene to possibly attack someone else.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sun May 08, 2011 11:23 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 46):
Did he know she was 15? Did he know she was drunk? All he may have known was that she was attacking someone and then leaving the scene to possibly attack someone else.

Appears that you haven't read the article.

I suggest you do before you comment any further.

The incident was phoned in and reported to police by the school and the mother, both of which would have had to have given details to the police dispatcher about the incident.

The cops knew what they were dealing with here, and that was that a "student" was serving alcohol to other students, from a water bottle.

They, the cops, would have had all the details they needed to deal with this.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Maverick623
Topic Author
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Sun May 08, 2011 11:35 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 45):

Even more reason why the cop should have realized his actions were way over the top in dealing with situation. If this cop can not subdue a 15 year old in a controlled manner, he needs to hang his gun up and call it a day.

Dude, I would love to see you try to control a drunk 15 year old.

By the way, for anyone interested, there's no shortage of videos on YouTube (and a few episodes of COPS) where you can watch officers try to contain and subdue drunk and/or enraged teenage girls.

Quoting rottenray (Reply 41):
You don't roll into a minor altercation and simply shove someone into a wall to "investigate" the situation.

No investigation necessary in this case. The cops originally got a call of a 15 year old girl who was drunk and had assaulted one or more school staff. When they pull up, they see what appears to be a teenage girl slapping another woman on the ground. There's your probable cause to detain/arrest.

When they go to make contact with her, she walks away and ignores their commands. Doesn't take a genius to figure out she's probably not going to go down without a fight, so you knock the fight out of her.

Quoting rottenray (Reply 41):
but what if the "girl" as we're calling her had been attacked by the the other female wearing the ID tag?

Except that wasn't the case, and the cops already knew that. And a normal person doesn't hit someone in the face, and then storm off when they're told to stay put.

Quoting rottenray (Reply 41):

No shots fired, no sign of weapons.

Rule #1: ALWAYS assume suspects are armed and willing to kill or injure you.

That being said, your point is irrelevant, as the cop never reached for even his Taser.

Quoting rottenray (Reply 41):

One suspect is walking away, so let's just brace her from behind and slam her head against a wall.

If I see someone assault another person, and they refuse my commands, you're damn right I'm going to take them down and take the fight out of them.

Quoting rottenray (Reply 41):
Maricopa county is generally in trouble with their enforcement policies, in particular Phoenix PD and the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office.

That has NOTHING to do with this arrest. Political blunders from the brass aside, the only cops to have been in trouble were due to racial profiling and getting paid under the table. Nothing to do with this.

Quoting rottenray (Reply 41):

It's fun to ponder these situations, but if you put yourself in "first person" here, you stand a 50-50 chance of having part of your face scraped off against the stucco wall of a dying strip mall.

No, because I'd stop when they tell me to. The first time.

Quoting rottenray (Reply 41):

That's not what we pay these guys to do - we pay them to serve and protect.

Hmmm.... maybe you missed the part where the girl had physically assaulted teachers and her mother?

Sounds like they were doing their job to me.

Quoting rottenray (Reply 41):


How would you like to be treated, by someone who just arrived on the scene?

As someone who has been "confronted" by police looking for a fleeing suspect (who happened to be in my house, and fit my general description), I'll tell you what I did:

The cop asked to see my hands, I complied. I told them the guy they were looking for was upstairs, and they pulled me out of the house and sent the dog in after him. No issues whatsoever.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
fr8mech
Posts: 6672
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RE: PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen

Mon May 09, 2011 12:12 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 47):

Appears that you haven't read the article.

I suggest you do before you comment any further.

Apologies, I read the article 3 days ago. Comments are still pertinent. Callers get things wrong. Dispatchers get things wrong. Witnesses get things wrong. Sh!t happens.

An example from personal experince to illustrate, if I may:

I'm riding as a Deputy Chief one summer night. 0300 disptach for an apartment fire. Arrive on scene with nothing showing. Approach the door and knock. While in the exterior hallway, I'm approached by a man who asks what's the fire department doing here? I say there is a report of a fire at this address. He says that he reported GUNfire from the address. I had never felt so alone in my life.

People get things wrong. Police need to respond with the mindset that they have no friends in the area...not that everyone is the enemy, but that there are no friends. Everyone is suspect. It's how they stay alive. Sorry, but that's the world we all live in. This isn't Mayberry.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.

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