fr8mech
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Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Wed May 11, 2011 8:18 pm

A video from a friend on Facebook:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qKdScVerrBU

I've never heard of Don Smith, and quite simply, I'll probably never see another thing from him, but he does raise an interesting point. Why isn't the media attacking Obama? In fact, they seem to be rationalizing that high gas prices are good for the country.

Of course, some of this stuff is more than likely taken out of context, but really, have you heard and/or seen the mainstream attack this administration over the price of gas at the same level that the media attack the Bush Administration?

Oh, by the way...if these prices are supposed to be good for the country, do we still need to keep our tires inflated to the proper pressure?

Feel free to bash away.

Oh, by the way $4.15 a gallon here. Up $0.37 in a day. (that happened yesterday)
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gatorfan
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Wed May 11, 2011 8:22 pm

I think we should still blame Dick Cheney, Halliburton and the vast right wing conspiracy.  
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Wed May 11, 2011 8:27 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
I've never heard of Don Smith, and quite simply, I'll probably never see another thing from him, but he does raise an interesting point. Why isn't the media attacking Obama? In fact, they seem to be rationalizing that high gas prices are good for the country.

It is pretty hilarious - The conspiracy theorists (in this case the entire mains tream media) made all these claims about Bush/Cheney intentionally driving up oil prices after Katrina and other supply disturbances. But with Obama, who clearly said during his campaign he wanted to make the price of oil "necessarily skyrocket", they are all silent.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Wed May 11, 2011 8:41 pm

They didn't really care about higher gas prices back then anyway. It furthers their agenda in other ways.

The rhetoric today and back then is about pandering to populism.

[Edited 2011-05-11 13:43:01]
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cargolex
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Wed May 11, 2011 8:47 pm

Quote:
But with Obama, who clearly said during his campaign he wanted to make the price of oil "necessarily skyrocket"

Source?

Quote:
Why isn't the media attacking Obama?

Perhaps because there's not much he can do to change the price of gas. Similarly, I don't recall a media pile-on of President Bush when gas prices shot up in 2008. There wasn't much he could've done either.

But I'd like to hear what you think Obama could do to lower the price of gas?

[Edited 2011-05-11 13:51:38]
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Wed May 11, 2011 9:06 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
But with Obama, who clearly said during his campaign he wanted to make the price of oil "necessarily skyrocket", they are all silent.

He said that in '09 in regard to Cap and Trade and the effect on electricity costs to consumers. But, no less damaging nonetheless.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
Oh, by the way...if these prices are supposed to be good for the country, do we still need to keep our tires inflated to the proper pressure?

Our country is far different then European countries when it comes to the effect of fuel prices on consumer goods. Food travels a long distance to get to market here so it's more influenced by fluctuations in fuel costs. Beef I buy here in Seattle may come from Texas, oranges from Florida, rice from Arkansas. Most transported by truck.

I'm less affected by gas prices since I use mass transit and the wife works close to where we live, but the typical American family is much more affected than I am.
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rfields5421
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Wed May 11, 2011 9:17 pm

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 4):
Similarly, I don't recall a media pile-on of President Bush when gas prices shot up in 2008. There wasn't much he could've done either.

There was a bit on President Bush, but not much. Most was focused on VP Cheyney and and some other Bush appointees who came from the oil industry.

President Bush had long been perceived by both the Democrats and the Republicans as a 'friend' of the oil industry. Perhaps because he said so on several occasions.

But the key part is this:

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 4):
because there's not much he can do to change the price of gas.

The media is learning slowly that the President does not have a magic wand he can wave and 'fix' economic problems. They are also learning that oil prices are not controlled by the oil companies, but by the speculators and traders. Everything from individual large investors to pension funds want the price to be high so they can make profits or make payments to the old folks.

Another point is that fuel prices have to be high to make exploration and production of additional US oil reserves feasible. We don't have billions of barrels of untapped oil at cheap prices. We do have billions of barrels of untapped reserves which will take about $80 to $100 per barrel prices, or $4 gallon gas at the pump, to make viable.

And no I don't have any oil company stock, and really hate paying $90 to fill up my truck so I can earn a little money.
 
gatorfan
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Wed May 11, 2011 9:21 pm

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 4):
Source?

Let me try. Obama's Secretary of Energy (Steven Chu) has said:

"Somehow we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe."

December 12, 2008 WSJ (I'd post a link but it's subscription only).
 
seb146
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Wed May 11, 2011 9:33 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 5):
He said that in '09 in regard to Cap and Trade and the effect on electricity costs to consumers. But, no less damaging nonetheless.

But, that is not about the price of gas, is it?

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 7):
Let me try. Obama's Secretary of Energy (Steven Chu) has said:

"Somehow we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe."

December 12, 2008 WSJ (I'd post a link but it's subscription only).

So, the Secretary of Energy said something so that translates to:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
But with Obama, who clearly said during his campaign he wanted to make the price of oil "necessarily skyrocket",

Uhhhh.. huh? Explain, please.

The previous administration had a lot of oil and energy people working in it. So, it would be in their best interests to raise the price of such things as gasoline and electricity.

Besides, all I hear in the media is how high the price of gas is and how it directly effects us. Just like before. However, unlike before, there is not a back drop of energy people running the administraion. That is probably why the difference.
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cargolex
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Wed May 11, 2011 10:06 pm

Quote:
there is not a back drop of energy people running the administraion.

Another good point. In the Bush Administration, many former Oil industry people were in very high places, including both the President and Vice President. Personally, I don't think they could've done much to change the course of gas prices in 2008, just like I don't think President Obama can do that much right now. But in their case, they were people who at least, on paper, knew a great deal about the oil industry and how it works.

If a car mechanic's car breaks down, it's more attention grabbing than if a carpenter's car breaks down. But neither of them have control over what part might break at some point in the future.

There was a good thread on here a couple of weeks ago that mysteriously disappeared about energy prices and commodities, too bad that one has been deleted.
 
Flighty
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Wed May 11, 2011 10:10 pm

What is wrong with paying whatever oil actually costs? If you don't like buying gas, don't buy it. It is hypocrisy to complain about gas prices.
 
ajd1992
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Wed May 11, 2011 11:08 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):

Oh, by the way $4.15 a gallon here. Up $0.37 in a day. (that happened yesterday)

Try $11 a Gallon here. Even with the UK/US Gal problem, it's still over $10 a gallon. Americans honestly don't know how cheap they have fuel.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Wed May 11, 2011 11:17 pm

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 4):
President Bush when gas prices shot up in 2008. There wasn't much he could've done either.

Links to links to links. The media and the Left (one in the same) repeatedly attacked Bush for gas prices.
http://www.mrc.org/bmi/articles/2011...Prices__Times_More_Than_Obama.html
http://www.democrats.com/gas
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/...gas-prices-bush-didnt-catch-break/
http://giv.to/y7vJwE

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 4):
But I'd like to hear what you think Obama could do to lower the price of gas?

Actually, he could do very little to affect prices in the short term. With policy changes and by urging Congress to enact (or repeal) legislation to allow drilling, he can easily affect long term prices. That's not the point. The point is that Bush, Cheney and gang were to blame in 2008 & 2009. In 2011, it's a good thing that prices have gone up, according to the hacks in the media.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 10):
What is wrong with paying whatever oil actually costs? If you don't like buying gas, don't buy it. It is hypocrisy to complain about gas prices.

That's fine and dandy when the price of oil and gas is the market price, but these prices are shaped by politically and partisan discourse.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 11):
Try $11 a Gallon here. Even with the UK/US Gal problem, it's still over $10 a gallon. Americans honestly don't know how cheap they have fuel.

Ask yourself how much of that price is governmental (tax) interference and how much is the actual cost of the fuel.

This discussion is not supposed to be about the price of oil, it's supposed to be about the manipulation and disingenuous machinations of the media when it comes to increasing gas prices and the cause of the increases:

2009: Bush and Cheney
2011: Don't know, but its not Obama.

And for Christ's sake...someone add Obama to the spell-check.

[Edited 2011-05-11 16:19:28]

[Edited 2011-05-11 16:20:06]
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PHLBOS
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 3:14 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
The point is that Bush, Cheney and gang were to blame in 2008 & 2009.

I think you meant 2007 & 2008. When Bush left office, the price was hovering around $2/gallon (in some places, it was still below that).

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
2009: Bush and Cheney

Correction, 2008.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
With policy changes and by urging Congress to enact (or repeal) legislation to allow drilling, he can easily affect long term prices.

IIRC, gas (& oil prices) in 2008 dropped shortly after President Bush finally allowed more domestic drilling (off-shore and ANWR). Yes, the economic recession played a major role as well but the timing of the drilling initiative and the price dropping CAN NOT be ignored.

Within his first month of coming into office, President Obama (along with his Interior Secretary Kenneth Salazar) basically voided that initiative and the prices, as a whole, have been going up since.

Does allowing more drilling increase supplies here and now? No, but it does influence long-term futures; something that market speculators look fairly close at.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
The media and the Left (one in the same) repeatedly attacked Bush for gas prices.

  

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
it's a good thing that prices have gone up, according to the hacks in the media.

   That's because it (in their twisted view) fuels (though artificially) the need for Green Initiatives and so forth.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
these prices are shaped by politically and partisan discourse.

  

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
This discussion is not supposed to be about the price of oil, it's supposed to be about the manipulation and disingenuous machinations of the media when it comes to increasing gas prices and the cause of the increases:

I agree, but unfortunately it's all inter-connected.

The bottom line here is; you're right, the media (as a whole) has tried its best to ignore the whole gas price spike because it makes their endorsed President look bad. They didn't start chiming or even talking about it until the consumer complaints basically got too loud for them to ignore and the economy was starting to show signs of it taking a hit as a result of increased inflation beyond just gas prices.

One has to wonder whether Obama and company will institute an October Surprise next year and have the prices drop significantly until his 2nd inauguration if re-elected? If that were to happen, the media would go absolutely Ga-Ga over it.
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gatorfan
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 3:21 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
Uhhhh.. huh? Explain, please.

Let's see. According to our UK friends here, petrol is the equivalent of $11/gallon. At the time the man the President nominated to be SecEnergy made his statement, oil was ~$2.80/gallon.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 11):
Try $11 a Gallon here. Even with the UK/US Gal problem, it's still over $10 a gallon. Americans honestly don't know how cheap they have fuel.

So Seb146, if you don't think that advocating a 4 fold increase in the price of gas at the pump is the equivalent of making fuel skyrocket, then what is? Obviously the President endorses the SecEnergy's thoughts as he nominated him AFTER the made these comments which were widely reported and said right before the nomination.
 
Mir
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 3:39 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
In fact, they seem to be rationalizing that high gas prices are good for the country.

Not exactly good for the country, but there is the silver lining that nothing spurs new energy technology development like high gas prices. I doubt you'd be seeing the move toward fuel economy in the auto industry, particularly among US manufacturers, that you're seeing now had the big spike in 2008 not happened.

Since people don't appear to want the government to spend money to invest in such development, it's not a bad thing for the market to do it.

-Mir
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seb146
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 4:03 pm

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 14):
So Seb146, if you don't think that advocating a 4 fold increase in the price of gas at the pump is the equivalent of making fuel skyrocket, then what is? Obviously the President endorses the SecEnergy's thoughts as he nominated him AFTER the made these comments which were widely reported and said right before the nomination.

I still don't see the connection. Energy Secretary makes a statement. 2 1/2 years later, the price shoots up. Please connect the dots for me. I do not see the connection. I really don't see the connection between "the price of fuel is X Dollars per gallon in the USA but Y Euros per liter in England." England had a different tax system than the United States, IIRC. So, help me out. What do apples and dolphins have in common?
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ajd1992
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 4:12 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
Ask yourself how much of that price is governmental (tax) interference and how much is the actual cost of the fuel.

From a quick google search (I will add, I might be totally wrong on this - I don't drive a car, so I have no knowledge of actual real life costs of fuel, only what it says on the pump)

Unleaded (which I assume would be what you call "Gas" and all the derivatives of that, such as premium and the like) the tax is 60%.

Diesel & LPG (Liquid Petroleum Gas) is taxed at 58%.

I think it works out at the moment we pay just under 60p per LITRE (which is just a tad under a dollar), obviously in a gallon there are 4.5 litres so that's nearly $4 a gallon just in tax. Even if that was for a US gallon, it'd be over $3.50 in tax.

Honestly - if you think fuel in the US is expensive, try living here. It's insane the amount we pay for fuel. I remember in Florida in 2001 when it was something like $1.50 for a gallon of fuel....
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 4:34 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 17):
Honestly - if you think fuel in the US is expensive, try living here. It's insane the amount we pay for fuel. I remember in Florida in 2001 when it was something like $1.50 for a gallon of fuel....

And honestly, what it cost in the UK is irrelevant. Americans have their cost of living baselined against a different price.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 16):
I still don't see the connection. Energy Secretary makes a statement. 2 1/2 years later, the price shoots up. Please connect the dots for me. I do not see the connection.

I won't speak on behalf of gatorfan, but given that the Obama administration along with nearly the entire Democratic party called for legislation that would knowingly increase the cost of energy by several multiples, it's hard to believe they are now sympathetic to the price increases driven by market conditions.

And yet, we will soon be treated to a repeat of the political theater whereby Democrats subpoena oil executives to Congress so that they can be grilled on their business practices.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 13):
Does allowing more drilling increase supplies here and now? No, but it does influence long-term futures; something that market speculators look fairly close at.

It is an unending source of frustration how Democrats block expanded drilling by crying that it won't affect market prices for, say, 3-5 years. Yes. And? We just keep ending up 3-5 years down the road in the same position as before. Do they not want more affordable energy and American jobs?

The state of drilling permits in the GOM is approaching downright fraud. We are nowhere close to pre-Macondo permitting rates. I'm not talking about expanded drilling, just maintaining the baseline production rate. This is going to have a substantial effect on supplies coming online from 2013 and beyond. The time can't be made up. We will have no other choice than to increase imports, likely from Brazil. If you take Obama at his gaffs, he would rather become Brazil's "number one customer" than drill ourselves.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 6:05 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 13):
IIRC, gas (& oil prices) in 2008 dropped shortly after President Bush finally allowed more domestic drilling (off-shore and ANWR). Yes, the economic recession played a major role as well but the timing of the drilling initiative and the price dropping CAN NOT be ignored.

The timing of the drilling initiative and the price drop are NOT RELATED.

At the time, oil futures were bid up to the point that speculators were stretched to the maximum trying to cover all their manipulative plans. Prices dropped because the speculators had to find cash to cover their bids.

While speculators will bid the price at $100 per barrel or higher for million barrel lots, the refineries will not pay those prices. Even today speculators are find trouble selling the oil they 'purchased' at high prices. Refineries are taking only the minimum amount they need to meet demand. The last I saw on Fox News is that US refineries are working below 87% capacity at this time. (About 2 weeks ago.)

The only good thing about the current prices is the speculator capacity is close to reaching the breaking point again.
 
Flighty
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 6:13 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 18):
Do they not want more affordable energy and American jobs

American oil production (which is small) has very little to do with "affordable energy." Oil prices have much more to do with China, India, and the US Dollar.

China wants oil, therefore it is expensive. There is no way we can have $2 gas prices unless we totally over-build the Dollar. That's the last thing we want to do.

The price of oil has gone up for good reasons and it's fine. I hope it goes to $7.50.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 7:04 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
I hope it goes to $7.50.

Assuming your age-range listed in your profile is true and current; you're obviously too young to remember the double-digit inflation we had during much of the 1970s (particularly 1973-1974 and 1979-1980), the vast majority of it was the result of skyrocketing fuel costs. While I wasn't old enough to drive back then, I was old enough to remember the cost of EVERYTHING going up.

Higher fuel costs translates into higher shipping and delivery costs of goods and services; which, in turn, translates into higher prices for just about EVERYTHING across the board!

Let's not forget, especially since this is an aviation web-site, that the last time fuel prices went this high; several airlines either shut down or got absorbed in mergers and many people LOST their jobs as a result of such.

So if you want to support something that WILL ultimately increase inflation and cause more people to lose jobs; be my guest.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
PPVRA
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 7:20 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 18):
The state of drilling permits in the GOM is approaching downright fraud.

Not related to oil drilling, but I was talking to a metallurgist at the end of last year trying to get permits to open a new mine somewhere out west. He said they were on the "fourth year of a three year process"!

This type of shenanigan costs millions of dollars and destroy new investments and job creation. And this game is being played at a time of very high unemployment. Height of irresponsibility.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 7:37 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):

The previous administration had a lot of oil and energy people working in it. So, it would be in their best interests to raise the price of such things as gasoline and electricity.

That's a kindergarten-level understanding of business and economics talking.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):

Besides, all I hear in the media is how high the price of gas is and how it directly effects us. Just like before. However, unlike before, there is not a back drop of energy people running the administraion. That is probably why the difference.

But the core problem is the fact that 99% of the recoverable oil in the US is off-limits to extraction, due to government regulation, and it's gotten worse since Obama arrived (not that it was that much better before).

We huge reserves offshore - and apart from very limited GOM fields it's all off-limits. We have over 2 trillion barrels in oil sands and shale - enough for more than 300 years - it's all off limits. Think of all the jobs that could be created, and think of the hundreds of billions of dollars that would stay in this country rather than to fund Saudi mile-high skyscrapers, gold-plated Bentleys and donations to Wahabi and other Islamist nutcases.
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canoecarrier
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 7:41 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
But, that is not about the price of gas, is it?

I was just pointing out that the quote was incorrectly attributed to gas prices.

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
Not exactly good for the country, but there is the silver lining that nothing spurs new energy technology development like high gas prices.

What? Like the auto industry's all over the place approach to alternative fuel vehicles? There's hydrogen cell cars, electric cars, biofuel cars, hybrid cars. Personally, I'd like them to just pick one or two technologies and develop them. And, electric cars don't do anything to reduce our reliance on energy as a whole, plus there's diminishing returns because you have to get rid of batteries.

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
I doubt you'd be seeing the move toward fuel economy in the auto industry, particularly among US manufacturers, that you're seeing now had the big spike in 2008 not happened.

Fuel efficiency has been mandated under the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) regulations since 1978. Remember that in '07 GWB signed the Energy Independence and Security Act that set a goal of national fuel economy standard of 35 mpg by 2020. The price spike in '08 had nothing to do with technological advances in fuel economy.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
Oh, by the way...if these prices are supposed to be good for the country, do we still need to keep our tires inflated to the proper pressure?

Personally I think fuel economy is good for our country, increased fuel prices are not. We should start by re-evaluating US emission regulations so we can start having European diesel engines in our cars.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 7:56 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 24):
Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
I doubt you'd be seeing the move toward fuel economy in the auto industry, particularly among US manufacturers, that you're seeing now had the big spike in 2008 not happened.

Fuel efficiency has been mandated under the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) regulations since 1978. Remember that in '07 GWB signed the Energy Independence and Security Act that set a goal of national fuel economy standard of 35 mpg by 2020. The price spike in '08 had nothing to do with technological advances in fuel economy.

IIRC, President Obama in his first year in office ammended the above to have the CAFE standard of 35 mpg set by 2016.

You are right in stating that the price spikes of '08 had nothing to do with the CAFE bump-up but rather it was due to the post-Katrina price spikes of '05 and '06 AND the Democratic Party taking majority control of both the House and Senate in 2007.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 24):
We should start by re-evaluating US emission regulations so we can start having European diesel engines in our cars.

      Hear-hear.
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fr8mech
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 7:59 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
The price of oil has gone up for good reasons and it's fine. I hope it goes to $7.50.

I hope you're ready to pay more for evrything that you buy. Everything. Businesses will pass the increased cost of production and transportation on to the consumer.


Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
American oil production (which is small) has very little to do with "affordable energy."

So, let's increase American oil production.

Let's be clear on this:

All things remaining equal, an increase in supply will decrease the price. Again, for those who do not have a basic grasp of economics: when you have more of something, its price will go down.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 13):
Correction, 2008.

Thank you. Working nights turns your brain to mush even when it's daytime.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 19):
The timing of the drilling initiative and the price drop are NOT RELATED.

Really? We'll differ on this point.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 8:47 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 25):
You are right in stating that the price spikes of '08 had nothing to do with the CAFE bump-up but rather it was due to the post-Katrina price spikes of '05 and '06 AND the Democratic Party taking majority control of both the House and Senate in 2007.

CAFE Standards have risen dramatically and at lower rates even when the Democratic Party wasn't in control of both the House and Senate. Although, typically the higher the price of gas the more support increases in CAFE standards get politically, though more from the left than the right.

Really, CAFE standards don't do much to effect the price of fuel, they initially were meant to curb our dependence on foreign oil, but now are getting spinned to be a way to lower the amounts of greenhouse gas emissions we release. I use them all the time to model future mtCO2e contributions because of transportation projects.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
This discussion is not supposed to be about the price of oil, it's supposed to be about the manipulation and disingenuous machinations of the media when it comes to increasing gas prices and the cause of the increases:

2009: Bush and Cheney
2011: Don't know, but its not Obama.

Well right, the media hardly ever asks tough questions about the Obama administration. It wasn't until he knocked off OBL that I heard them say that until he made that decision he was considered "aloof and professor like". I'd like them to ask why the Obama administration isn't approving new off shore drilling rigs even though that won't have a short term effect on oil production.

Here's what the president said today, "You know, if you're some -- somebody who works -- has to drive 50 miles a day -- to get to your job. And you're not makin' that much to begin with. And you may not be able to trade in your old car for a new hybrid. So, you're only gettin' 12 or 15 miles a gallon. This is taking a big chunk out of your budget."

No one ever calls him on this. In the 21 years I've been a car owner I've never owned a car with that bad a gas mileage. I'd venture to say not many others in my age group have either. And, not everyone wants a hybrid. When I bought a brand new Toyota Highlander last month the hybrid package was more expensive than the sport.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
fr8mech
Topic Author
Posts: 6622
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 9:12 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 27):
Here's what the president said today, "You know, if you're some -- somebody who works -- has to drive 50 miles a day -- to get to your job. And you're not makin' that much to begin with. And you may not be able to trade in your old car for a new hybrid. So, you're only gettin' 12 or 15 miles a gallon. This is taking a big chunk out of your budget."

Today HR1229 passed, which appears (I say appears, because we have all learned that nothing Congress puts out can be taken at face value) to clean up the convoluted permit process for Gulf drilling. We'll see how it fares in the Senate and, if it gets there, on the President's desk.

Next, is HR 1321, which appears to lift moratorium on new drilling.

Again, we'll see how this bill fares in the Senate and the Oval Office.

And, how the media will spin it if the Democrats and Obama refuse to allow new drilling, which may increase oil production and will produce more jobs.

I wait with bated breath.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 9:20 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 27):
CAFE Standards have risen dramatically and at lower rates even when the Democratic Party wasn't in control of both the House and Senate

Incorrect, the CAFE standard for cars was held steady at 27.5 mpg from 1990 through 2010 with only slight increases for trucks (from 20 mpg to 23.5 mpg). For 2011, the CAFE figure is at 31.2 mpg (24.1 for trucks).

While there were a few efforts to push the CAFE standards higher during the above-mentioned period, it never gained more traction until Pelosi became Speaker of the House in 2007.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 27):
CAFE standards don't do much to effect the price of fuel,

I never said it did.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 27):
they initially were meant to curb our dependence on foreign oil, but now are getting spinned to be a way to lower the amounts of greenhouse gas emissions we release.
NOW getting spinned to lower amounts of greeenhouse gas emissions. That spin's (as a reason to raise CAFE standards) been around for almost 20 years.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 27):
Here's what the president said today, "You know, if you're some -- somebody who works -- has to drive 50 miles a day -- to get to your job. And you're not makin' that much to begin with. And you may not be able to trade in your old car for a new hybrid. So, you're only gettin' 12 or 15 miles a gallon. This is taking a big chunk out of your budget."

Here's the thing about that. Even if a person trades in their vehicle for one that gets better mileage; if the price keeps going up, one's STILL going to feel the pinch. It's not like people can keep changing/trading in their vehicle everytime the cost of gas goes up. Additionally, a gas guzzler that's paid off may actually cost less overall than a more fuel efficiant vehicle with a loan payment book.

During the last price spike of 2008; my brother was driving about 150 miles/day (to/from various job sites) in a 1990 Nissan Sentra manual that could get up to 40 mpg on the highway for his job. Guess what, the price increases STILL drained his wallet. BTW, prior to the spike, he was driving a late-model Mazda B2300 (4-cylinder) pick-up.

And before somebody chimes in and says that his company will reimburse him for all the work-related mileage; the straw that broke the camel's back and caused him to change jobs was when the company announced that they were no longer going to reimburse drivers for their mileage. That was enough to cause him to leave a company that he was employed with for over 25 years. Fortunately, he found work with another company that provided him with a company van for business use.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 9:22 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
Why isn't the media attacking Obama



Their is know way the main stream is going to attack the green mystic over oil prices ... no way. Obama and the left want oil prices to go up ... they don't mind it one bit . The BP oil (incident) was exactly what Obama needed ... for the green agenda. We keep thinking that the current adminsitation thinks like we do ...they do not. High oil prices helps the green agenda , High health-care costs helps the single payer effort , and unemployment / deficits help the wealth distribution agenda ... its just like that. It is interesting seeing them try to play both sides of the political issues ... but the President can get away with saying anything about any issue on any day to anyone and he slides right on through.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 9:28 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 30):
Their is know way the main stream is going to attack the green mystic over oil prices .

Minor homonym and compound word corrections to the above:

There is no way the mainstream is going to attack the green mystic over oil prices.

That said, the rest of your post is spot on.   
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 9:29 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
American oil production (which is small) has very little to do with "affordable energy."

The United States is the 3rd largest oil producing nation in the world, champ. We are not that far behind Russia and Saudi (#1 and #2) and twice as large as #4. Contrary to the liberal misinformation, our production matters.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
The price of oil has gone up for good reasons and it's fine. I hope it goes to $7.50.

Then you are hoping for economic ruin.
 
canoecarrier
Posts: 2569
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 9:52 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 29):
Incorrect, the CAFE standard for cars was held steady at 27.5 mpg from 1990 through 2010 with only slight increases for trucks (from 20 mpg to 23.5 mpg). For 2011, the CAFE figure is at 31.2 mpg (24.1 for trucks).

Look at the numbers from the '80s then the statement I made is right. In the early 80's passenger car efficiency requirements went up and that was a Republican Senate. Admittedly, I don't have the time to research when exactly those standards were set, it may have been in the late 70's. But, the DOT table does list combined fuel economy standards, in general, went up during the 80's.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 29):
I never said it did.

I was speaking broadly to try and keep it somewhat in topic. Not trying to put words in your mouth.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 29):
And before somebody chimes in and says that his company will reimburse him for all the work-related mileage; the straw that broke the camel's back and caused him to change jobs was when the company announced that they were no longer going to reimburse drivers for their mileage.

True, and with the mileage reimbursement for personal vehicle use around $.50/mile there's some diminishing returns because oil changes, tire wear, etc add up.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
ajd1992
Posts: 2390
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 10:40 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 18):
And honestly, what it cost in the UK is irrelevant. Americans have their cost of living baselined against a different price

I was making a statement - I know you can't directly compare the 2, but the difference is pathetic. The living costs in the US are lower, I grant you, but not by that much!

All I will say is - I'm glad I cycle a lot more than I used to.  
 
Flighty
Posts: 7677
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 10:48 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 21):
So if you want to support something that WILL ultimately increase inflation and cause more people to lose jobs; be my guest.

You are right that the 1970s inflation was nasty of course and I wasn't old enough then to care. But high oil prices are a sign of world prosperity. Oil is expensive because many rich people (like us Americans) want to buy it and burn it.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 32):
Then you are hoping for economic ruin.

See above. I understand transportation would be somewhat more expensive. That is OK. Our economy is pretty robust to oil prices now. I don't lose a bit of sleep over it. Of course many people in the suburbs with V8 SUVs and trucks are crying. I understand they may need to make painful lifestyle adjustments. The fact is, they are not wealthy enough to actually pay for the lifestyle they want. One suggestion is, start a business to earn the money you need to buy oil. Some people are not satisfied at $80,000/yr... solution: make more money, or marry someone wealthy.

If oil is $200... while I doubt it will go that high... we can take it. Compared to health care/military expenses, this is a pretty small issue. I spend so little on gas these days it's a rounding error. So yes I am being a little smug about that. But most anyone can live near their work. There are battery powered cars for sale now.

Yes, goods-transport does use diesel fuel. It's not such a major issue that I will cry about it though. Ironically, the biggest price rises may be in seafood and fresh flowers (some of which are flown from Ethiopia).
 
fr8mech
Topic Author
Posts: 6622
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 11:00 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):
See above. I understand transportation would be somewhat more expensive. That is OK. Our economy is pretty robust to oil prices now. I don't lose a bit of sleep over it. Of course many people in the suburbs with V8 SUVs and trucks are crying. I understand they may need to make painful lifestyle adjustments. The fact is, they are not wealthy enough to actually pay for the lifestyle they want. One suggestion is, start a business to earn the money you need to buy oil. Some people are not satisfied at $80,000/yr... solution: make more money, or marry someone wealthy.

Wow, those are some of the most naive statements I've ever read.

My God man, don't you realize that higher fuel prices impact the poor more than anyone else. Mass transit is affected (fares go up). Food prices increase. Clothing and textiles, through the roof. Corporations and small businesses, alike will layoff employees. Were you not paying attention in 2008?

Start a business? With what capital? You are advocating the destruction of the US economy and you glibly say "make more money"?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):
I spend so little on gas these days it's a rounding error.

But, you are not the US economy, we are. Oh, by the way...you pay for more gas/diesel than you think. Look around your room and ask yourself how that stuff came to you and how much of the purchase price was transportation.

Maybe I'm falling for some kind of joke, but I fear I'm not.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
zweiBierebitte
Posts: 9
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 11:17 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 5):
Our country is far different then European countries when it comes to the effect of fuel prices on consumer goods. Food travels a long distance to get to market here so it's more influenced by fluctuations in fuel costs. Beef I buy here in Seattle may come from Texas, oranges from Florida, rice from Arkansas. Most transported by truck.

Not so much different. I live in Paris and at the grocery store yesterday I bought garlic and apples from Argentina, green beans from Kenya and bananas from Cameroon. My tomatoes did come from Spain though. We get a lot of fish here from Kenya and Tanzania too.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 24):
Personally I think fuel economy is good for our country, increased fuel prices are not. We should start by re-evaluating US emission regulations so we can start having European diesel engines in our cars.

Agree 110%... except the only way to get people out of their cars is for gas prices to rise. Only way to change behavior is to incentivize it by raising prices. Look how many people are starting to ride their bikes to work now that prices have gone up!
 
fr8mech
Topic Author
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 11:25 pm

Quoting zweiBierebitte (Reply 37):
Only way to change behavior is to incentivize it by raising prices.

I'll cautiously say that I don't have a problem with that, so long as the price increase is through natural market forces and not through government intervention. Social engineering through tax policy and governmental policy is wrong and it skews the market.

Can we say that right now? No, we can't.

From the excise and sales taxes to moratoriums to activism, the price is influenced by to many things outside the market.

And remember...we still don't have an adequate replacement for oil. Not one.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
zweiBierebitte
Posts: 9
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Thu May 12, 2011 11:53 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 38):
I'll cautiously say that I don't have a problem with that, so long as the price increase is through natural market forces and not through government intervention.

IMO the aspect of rising oil prices that hurts the U.S is the volatility of prices. One year gas is $150 a barrel, 2 years later it's $70. We saw this when oil hit $150 a few years ago. There was sudden demand for small, fuel efficient cars and the Big 3 drew up plans to release new small cars or improved small cars onto to market. But by the time the cars reached the market 6 months - 1 year later, oil prices had fallen and there wasn't any more demand. I think this volatility hurts us in the short run and stunts innovation and growth in the long run. When no one knows what oil prices will be in 1 year, how can we make any rational decision about what car to buy, where to buy a house or what company to invest in? It's this incertitude that's hurting us.

Only 2 ways to ameliorate this. A mandated minimum price or subsidize gas prices. Either way, people will be unhappy.

And I think we can all agree the only place oil prices can go is up. Growing demand in China + India + the ever so often conflict in an oil region + diminishing production in the U.S and Saudi Arabia = higher prices.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Fri May 13, 2011 12:05 am

Quoting zweiBierebitte (Reply 39):
There was sudden demand for small, fuel efficient cars and the Big 3 drew up plans to release new small cars or improved small cars onto to market. But by the time the cars reached the market 6 months - 1 year later, oil prices had fallen and there wasn't any more demand.

Well that's more a factor of the Big 3 being drunk on the profit margin they got selling a SUV over an economy car. That's market corrected to some extent since they started producing fuel efficient cars that were more comfortable inside. Before, economy cars were synonymous with no frills interiors.

Quoting zweiBierebitte (Reply 37):
Look how many people are starting to ride their bikes to work now that prices have gone up!

That's not exactly going to noticeably reduce the amount of oil/gas we use. I live in one of the more bike friendly cities in the country and have biked to work everyday for 3 years. I used my car so little that we traded two cars in for one, but even with all the bike infrastructure Seattle has only 3% of people bike commute and the number is much lower during the winter.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 38):
I'll cautiously say that I don't have a problem with that, so long as the price increase is through natural market forces and not through government intervention. Social engineering through tax policy and governmental policy is wrong and it skews the market.

Right and as you've said the cost of a gallon of gas hurts low income people more than the wealthy. Gas prices have an effect quite similar to a flat tax. If I make a million dollars a year and am taxed 20% on that I can afford it. Everyone drives so the effect is nearly the same, one family may drive exactly the same as another but negative effect is greater on the poorer family.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
fr8mech
Topic Author
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Fri May 13, 2011 12:38 am

Quoting zweiBierebitte (Reply 39):
A mandated minimum price or subsidize gas prices.

Neither is acceptable. Price controls do not work. A minimum price, that may well be set below the market rate will force suppliers to flee the market. Scaricity that will be worse than in the 70's. Since fuel is such an important aspect, if not the most important behind confidence, of our economy, the government will be forced to subsidize the market or take it over completely. Unacceptable in our free market society.

Quoting zweiBierebitte (Reply 39):
IMO the aspect of rising oil prices that hurts the U.S is the volatility of prices.

Correct. And how do you stabilize the market? By ensuring that there are multiple streams of the product. So that political will or unrest in one supplier area has a minimal affect on the market. We know we have oil under our feet and off our coast. At this point, we lack the political will to get it.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Fri May 13, 2011 12:52 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):
But high oil prices are a sign of world prosperity. Oil is expensive because many rich people (like us Americans) want to buy it and burn it.

They are a sign that we are artificially constraining the feedback mechanism of the free market, which is to add supply. Insufficient supply hampers economic growth in a multitude of ways. You are as wrong about this as you are about your suggestion that U.S. production is "small."
 
Flighty
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Fri May 13, 2011 8:34 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 36):
Start a business? With what capital? You are advocating the destruction of the US economy and you glibly say "make more money"?

I think it is glib to call the world's wealthiest people "economically destroyed" or "poor" or whatever.

If people are saying we are doomed unless we get cheap oil -- that essentially, we are doomed period -- I don't buy it.

I forgot why the people you mention need to burn so much gas. Can't they ride a moped or a bicycle? I'm just saying, I could, but I have enough money to drive a car so I drive. I wasn't given this opportunity by God... actually I give the American economy credit for keeping me alive.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 42):
Insufficient supply hampers economic growth in a multitude of ways.

Insufficient supply. I forgot what your solution is. Increased USA production? That is going to depress prices so far, it will encourage US economic growth? That's two very aggressive assumptions tied together. We are wealthy enough I don't think we even need cheap fuel in the sense that China and India need it. Furthermore there are no threats of supply irregularity.

To the people claiming the US has a meaningful energy play on oil, I point you to this chart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_oil_reserves. We have some oil, but the faster we drill it, probably the less benefit we will get from the oil (i.e., I believe it will be more useful later). Do I feel a visceral need for more oil in our country, no. I would like to see a huge global carbon tax, optimize ourselves for 5,000+ years of resource duration, but that is just me.

[Edited 2011-05-13 01:41:04]
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
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RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Fri May 13, 2011 2:31 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 33):
In the early 80's passenger car efficiency requirements went up and that was a Republican Senate. Admittedly, I don't have the time to research when exactly those standards were set, it may have been in the late 70's.

With all due respect, did you even read or even skim through ANY of the link I posted earlier prior to writing your post? Granted, it's from Wiki; but the overall framework history is reasonably close to what actually happened timewise.

The first year for CAFE requirements took effect for the 1978 model year and was passed in 1975 by a Democratic controlled House (where all legislative bills start BTW), and Senate and signed (though hastily IMHO) by a GOP President (Ford).

While GOP controlled the Senate from '81-'87; the Democrats still controlled the House (with Speakers Tip O'Neill and later, Jim Wright and Tom Foley) during that time. While CAFE figures were mildly lowered somewhat from '86 through '89 (to 26.5 mpg vs. 27.5 mpg); any overall or outright repeal initiatives in bills have to originate from the House. Similar was true with regards to raising then later repealing the National Speed Limit.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 33):
But, the DOT table does list combined fuel economy standards, in general, went up during the 80's.

Again, that was because no serious change (repeal) initiatives were even considered in the House of Representatives at the time.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 40):
Well that's more a factor of the Big 3 being drunk on the profit margin they got selling a SUV over an economy car.

I'm sure Toyota got more profit per vehicle selling 4Runners, Highlanders Sequoias and even Avalons over Priuses, Camrys, Corollas and Yarises (or Yari) as well. Had Toyota not had the Prius in their U.S. line-up in 2007-2008; they would've taken a similar hit in sales as the Big 3. Keep in mind that Toyota did apply for a bailout of sorts with the Japanese government around the same time that GM and Chrysler applied for theirs.

Quoting zweiBierebitte (Reply 39):
There was sudden demand for small, fuel efficient cars and the Big 3 drew up plans to release new small cars or improved small cars onto to market. But by the time the cars reached the market 6 months - 1 year later, oil prices had fallen and there wasn't any more demand.

IIRC, during the last price spike in 2008; Toyota Prius sales soared but then dropped when the prices crashed later that year so it's not just a Big 3 thing in terms of what type of vehicles sell and when.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
gatorfan
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:43 pm

RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Fri May 13, 2011 2:37 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 16):
I still don't see the connection. Energy Secretary makes a statement. 2 1/2 years later, the price shoots up

The Secretary of Energy says that he wishes US gas prices would quadruple. And the price heads up. As Obama himself has said, it take a while to turn a ship. Well it seems that it took him 2.5 years to get the ship turned. The ultimate destination is clearly higher gas prices.

Look at what's going on in Congress today. I'm not advocating that the subsidies and tax credits the oil companies get is right, but what do you think is going to happen when they are taken away? The price of gas is going to go up. The price of gas is the financial equivalent of a tax on all consumers because almost EVERYTHING tangible we buy is transported.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 44):
The first year for CAFE requirements took effect for the 1978 model year and was passed in 1975 by a Democratic controlled House (where all legislative bills start BTW), and Senate and signed (though hastily IMHO) by a GOP President (Ford).

Sorry but that's not a correct statement. Revenue bills must start in the House but all other legislative bills can start in either chamber.

See Article I, Section 7, first sentence of the US Constitution.
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Fri May 13, 2011 2:47 pm

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 45):
Article I, Section 7, first sentence of the US Constitution.

   Thanks for the info. and correction/clarification. My bad.

Although personally, any initiative to reduce/repeal CAFE would likely be attached to a much larger overall bill; possibly even a revenue bill. Similar was done with both bills to raise (1987) and repeal (1995) the national Speed Limit.

Nonetheless, my intended point to canoecarrier regarding CAFE was this; in order for a bill to substantially LOWER or outright DROP CAFE standards to even get to the President's desk, it needs to pass BOTH in the House and Senate. Such an initiative might've passed in the Senate back in the mid-80s but it would've most certainly died in the House.

[Edited 2011-05-13 08:00:42]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Fri May 13, 2011 4:44 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 43):
We are wealthy enough I don't think we even need cheap fuel in the sense that China and India need it.

You should step back and do some significant "re-thinking" because you are consistently wrong about matters of fact and the conclusions you draw from them.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 43):
We have some oil, but the faster we drill it, probably the less benefit we will get from the oil

It's the opposite. A dollar today is more valuable than a dollar tomorrow. The time value of money applies to a resource that has monetary value.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 43):
(i.e., I believe it will be more useful later)

Again, it's the opposite. In the long, long future (+50 years) the importance of petroleum will diminish as natural gas becomes the preferred hydrocarbon and alternative fuels become more viable. In the here-and-now, we need petroleum.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 43):
Insufficient supply. I forgot what your solution is. Increased USA production? That is going to depress prices so far, it will encourage US economic growth? That's two very aggressive assumptions tied together.

If my solution wasn't clear, re-read my posts. U.S. production should absolutely increase. Why should it not? Our demand is increasing and if we do not increase production domestically, our only alternative will be to import more petroleum which has proven adverse economic effects.

Do you debate that increasing the cost of raw materials has a profoundly negative impact on who buy goods and who can profit from selling them?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 43):
To the people claiming the US has a meaningful energy play on oil, I point you to this chart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_oil_reserves.

So after being hammered on the fact that the U.S. is the 3rd largest oil producer in the world, you think this saves your credibility? Proven reserves are a constantly changing figure because economic recovery constantly changes with market price, new technology, and new discoveries. If that table is to be believed, the U.S. will exhaust its supplies in less than 6 years.
 
seb146
Posts: 13905
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Fri May 13, 2011 5:19 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 47):
U.S. production should absolutely increase. Why should it not? Our demand is increasing and if we do not increase production domestically, our only alternative will be to import more petroleum which has proven adverse economic effects.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
think of the hundreds of billions of dollars that would stay in this country rather than to fund Saudi mile-high skyscrapers, gold-plated Bentleys and donations to Wahabi and other Islamist nutcases.

The problem with that line of thinking is: OPEC and speculators set prices, not us. Remember this: When there is nothing going on in the world, oil prices either remain steady or inch down. Sometimes even inch up. When a hurricane, oil spill, terror attack or even one of the Saudi royal family has heartburn, the price shoots up immediatly. Where does all that money go? OPEC (Wahabists, terrorists, foreign families) and speculators. NOT the American people and NOT lowered prices at the pump. It has been proven time and again.

Another thing to think about: Oil companies had some of the biggest profits of any company ever in the first quarter of this year. Those profits include subsidies given to them by OUR federal government. Subtract those subsidies and the oil companies still make a profit. Boo-hoo. We should all feel sorry for them, according to the testimony given yesterday by heads of big oil. And the right wing.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 30):
Obama and the left want oil prices to go up ... they don't mind it one bit . The BP oil (incident) was exactly what Obama needed ... for the green agenda. We keep thinking that the current adminsitation thinks like we do ...they do not. High oil prices helps the green agenda

So, you are trying to tell us that oil is infinite? That we can simply drill baby drill and every drop will go to the United States with absolutly no profits and zero dollars going to terrorist states like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Venezuela? We don't need to rush into finding alternate sources of energy at all? Or, at least, we can drag our feet?
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Media Hypocrisy On Fuel Prices

Fri May 13, 2011 6:21 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 48):
We don't need to rush into finding alternate sources of energy at all? Or, at least, we can drag our feet?



SEB .. I would love to see us off oil !!! .

But a replacement for oil on the scale to run our economy like it is today is literally 50+ year away. Our entire infrastructure will require refitting , transportation system complete overhaul .. and millions out of work. This administration has NO plan or intellectual capability to even come close to a policy. Sorry. If you take the time to read up on his methods and the methods of his policy makers it is clear ... they just think they can manipulate any pipe dream into reality by burdening the producers into changing . Adding taxes and regulation ...threats and burdens will scare companies into making green cars?? ... that is literally how they think. But even better ... it scalps the evil corporations of profit and that is really the motivation at the core of his ideals. Obama loves oil ... he just wants it all in the hands of the government that's it..more power for the central planners , that is all he cares about.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !

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