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DocLightning
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Another American Detained In Dubai

Fri May 13, 2011 6:00 am

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/me...merican.detained/index.html?hpt=T2

Quote:
An American detained for more than two months in the United Arab Emirates faces up to seven years in prison for stealing police handcuffs, an allegation he says he only confessed to after being tortured.

This happens way too much to American and EU citizens in Dubai.

I think the first thing that the State Department ought to do is issue an advisory warning U.S. Citizens to not travel to the UAE for any reason outside of diplomatic, and advising all U.S. Citizens in Dubai to return home.

That should get the attention of the Emirati. This is not the way you treat your valued guests upon whom your economy depends.
-Doc Lightning-

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StarAC17
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Fri May 13, 2011 5:31 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I think the first thing that the State Department ought to do is issue an advisory warning U.S. Citizens to not travel to the UAE for any reason outside of diplomatic, and advising all U.S. Citizens in Dubai to return home.

You could do that or ban EK of all landing rights in the US until all Americans arrested for nonsense laws are released that will teach them.   ,   , and that would actually work  .
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oly720man
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Fri May 13, 2011 7:42 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
This is not the way you treat your valued guests upon whom your economy depends.

There do seem to be some strange offences/trumped up charges that catch people..

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereven...a-rude-gesture-allowed-to-fly-home

A surgeon stranded in Dubai after claims he made a rude gesture at another driver has been given permission to fly back home.

Joseph Nunoo-Mensah, from Tameside, had his passport seized after clashing with the motorist during a family holiday.

The 41-year-old, a consultant colorectal surgeon at King's College Hospital in London, was warned he would be charged with public indecency with a maximum penalty of five years in jail.
.
.
.

Joseph and his family were in Dubai on a family holiday on April 27 when a car drove up behind them flashing its lights.

He says he pulled over to let him pass but when the other driver refused to do so, he spread out his hands in a quizzical gesture. He was later pulled in by the police.


If you can be arrested and face 5 years for raising your hands in an expression of bemusement/frustration, it's not a place I'd be in any hurry to go to.

Makes you wonder if there's an undercurrent of "get the foreigner" operating over there,
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comorin
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 14, 2011 1:17 am

Quoting DocLightning
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 14, 2011 1:31 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 1):

You could do that or ban EK of all landing rights in the US until all Americans arrested for nonsense laws are released that will teach them. , , and that would actually work .

I would say that would be the next step.
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"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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comorin
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 14, 2011 2:08 am

Doc, you are scaring the daylights out of me - I may be heading there for a 2-year gig. I believe there are some prescription drugs that are banned there too, so you have to be careful.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 14, 2011 2:31 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):

That should get the attention of the Emirati. This is not the way you treat your valued guests upon whom your economy depends.


In this particular case I think I'm siding more with the tourist, however, it all sounds suspiciously dramatic, I'd like to hear the other side.

As ridiculous, idiotic and medieval as the laws may be in the emirates, frankly I feel no sympathy for most of these tourists that get in trouble. They should at least have had it present in their head one way or another how backwards this country is.

I find it idiotic when say, spring breakers in Mexico bitch moan and whine when they get their drunken assess thrown in jail and then blame the Mexican government for ruining their vacations and come home crying to mommy and daddy saying how horrible the country is blablabla. It's like they think that just because they are out of their own country somehow they think the laws suddenly don't apply to them. Brilliant   
 
NIKV69
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 14, 2011 2:39 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 1):

You could do that or ban EK of all landing rights in the US until all Americans arrested for nonsense laws are released that will teach them. , , and that would actually work .


I would say that would be the next step.

That is not going to happen.

Quoting comorin (Reply 5):
Doc, you are scaring the daylights out of me

Don't let him. My friend goes to DBX two to three times a year for extended periods and he is fine.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 14, 2011 5:15 am

Quoting comorin (Reply 5):
Doc, you are scaring the daylights out of me - I may be heading there for a 2-year gig. I believe there are some prescription drugs that are banned there too, so you have to be careful.

My advice would be not to go. I won't set foot near the place. One false step in front of the wrong person and your gig might be a lot longer than two years. You have NO rights there and you can be detained essentially at will, with flimsy excuses to justify it to the international community. In my opinion, any Westerner going to Dubai is taking a huge risk.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 6):

In this particular case I think I'm siding more with the tourist, however, it all sounds suspiciously dramatic, I'd like to hear the other side.

The other side is that he stole handcuffs. Even if it's true, it's hardly worth a seven year sentence. Then there was the Englishman who got locked up for four months out of a seven year sentence for having a tiny spec of pot on the sole of his foot. They accused him of "Drug trafficking." The British government finally got him released.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):
My friend goes to DBX two to three times a year for extended periods and he is fine.

I know a guy who snorts coke every weekend and so far he is fine. That doesn't make it a good idea.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
ojas
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 14, 2011 10:38 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
My advice would be not to go. I won't set foot near the place. One false step in front of the wrong person and your gig might be a lot longer than two years. You have NO rights there and you can be detained essentially at will, with flimsy excuses to justify it to the international community. In my opinion, any Westerner going to Dubai is taking a huge risk.

I have followed your non aviation postings keenly and I'm alarmed that you have already pronounced judgments on this matter. Read the article, there is SO MUCH inconsistency and as the democratic nations you and I represent (If you have prejudices against India we will leave that for another thread) we have to hear the other side before attesting someone guilty.

While you may deem the Gulf as a place of hell, it is not all that botched up as you project. Having stayed there for 18 years of my life, I can assure you that the article is concealing a lot than it is revealing. Yes the Arabs treat Indians like shit in general (though they are much more civil than what they were in the 90s) but very rarely have the police arrested expats on some silly charges as mentioned above [Saudi Arabia is an exception in this case]. Now if 3rd world citizens like us Indians (as the Arabs in general see) are not slapped such random charges that often I really don't think that of all the nationalities the Americans, who are regal citizens when compared to us for the emaratis, would be arrested for something this silly.

I really feel you have to give room for the other side to explain.

[Edited 2011-05-14 03:41:47]
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comorin
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 14, 2011 11:15 am

Quoting ojas (Reply 9):
Yes the Arabs treat Indians like shit in general

Now I'm REALLY scared!

Ojas, if you have been following Doc's postings you will know that he is a broadminded and open person, and bears no grudges. Everybody in the US loves India.
 
ojas
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 14, 2011 12:03 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 10):
Ojas, if you have been following Doc's postings you will know that he is a broadminded and open person, and bears no grudges. Everybody in the US loves India.

Which is why I posted.

Doc has always been a fair, open minded, liberal unassuming poster and a thread like this just did not suit his regular style and hence my reaction.
Great leaders don't tell you what to do ... they show you how it's done!
 
NIKV69
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 14, 2011 2:25 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
My advice would be not to go. I won't set foot near the place. One false step in front of the wrong person and your gig might be a lot longer than two years. You have NO rights there and you can be detained essentially at will, with flimsy excuses to justify it to the international community. In my opinion, any Westerner going to Dubai is taking a huge risk.

This is nothing more than scare mongering. Give me a break Doc.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
I know a guy who snorts coke every weekend and so far he is fine. That doesn't make it a good idea.

Great anaolgy, comparing someone breaking the law to someone traveling to Dubai. Snorting coke is never a good idea.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
This happens way too much to American and EU citizens in Dubai.

Oh I forgot just exactly how many Americans have been detained in Dubai against their will lately? Jeez an ex screener here Josh May has lived there for over a year and he hasn't told me of mass detentions for no reason. This is such a bunch of hooey.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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scbriml
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 14, 2011 2:38 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 5):
Doc, you are scaring the daylights out of me



Don't let him. You'll be fine.

Quoting comorin (Reply 5):
I believe there are some prescription drugs that are banned there too, so you have to be careful.



Some countries don't allow certain prescription drugs. As a visitor, it's your job to check and make sure before you travel. It's a normal part of travelling this big, beautiful World. See this link for full information about prescription drugs in the UAE:
http://www.dubai.ae/en.portal?topic,...7,1,&_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=general

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
In my opinion, any Westerner going to Dubai is taking a huge risk.



A huge risk?   

Yet millions willingly take this "risk" every year WITHOUT managing to get themselves arrested. How strange!   

I've lived and worked there and often visit on vacation (and will be again in November). Guess how many times I've been arrested? Clue - it's a number less than one.

Quoting comorin (Reply 10):
Now I'm REALLY scared!



There are lots of professional Indians who live a very safe and comfortable life in the UAE. Yes, for the low-paid labourers, life is tough, but they still choose to work there.
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Quokka
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 14, 2011 2:41 pm

Standard advice to any person travelling to another country is to familiarise yourself with the laws of that country, including what is a prohibited import or possession. Ignorance is not an excuse in the legal systems of many countries.

In this particular case we have someone arrested with handcuffs in his suitcase, which he admits to the media he found and thought "souvenir". Stealing by finding is an offence in many countries. Then he whines that he is detained "without proof". Say what?

When has anyone ever met anyone who wasn't beaten up by the police? When has a guilty person ever been sent to prison? They are all innocent, if you believe their stories.

While the possible sentence, if convicted, may be seven years actual sentences may be much shorter. Here in Western Australia the maximum sentence for theft is according to section 378 of the Criminal Code:
"378. Penalty for stealing
"Any person who steals anything capable of being stolen is guilty of a crime, and is liable, if no other punishment is provided, to imprisonment for 7 years."
Perhaps Western Australia is as backwards as the UAE, but what is the maximum penalty in States of the Union?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 14, 2011 3:56 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 14):

In this particular case we have someone arrested with handcuffs in his suitcase, which he admits to the media he found and thought "souvenir". Stealing by finding is an offence in many countries. Then he whines that he is detained "without proof". Say what?

WA would fine someone and then let them go. They would also give him a fair trial, which is not the case in the UAE.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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comorin
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 14, 2011 4:23 pm

Quoting ojas (Reply 11):
and a thread like this just did not suit his regular style and hence my reaction.

Point taken!   I have been on three very brief visits to Dubai in the past and have pshawed the good doc once before. Now that I face the prospect of living there, it's another story!

Cheers.
 
UK_Dispatcher
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 14, 2011 6:29 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 16):
Point taken! I have been on three very brief visits to Dubai in the past and have pshawed the good doc once before. Now that I face the prospect of living there, it's another story!

Let me know when you get to the UAE. It would be good to meet you.

I have lived in the UAE for 6 years -and have been arrested here, but I did nothing wrong and luckily common sense prevailed and I am still here and free. Some may not be so lucky.
 
comorin
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 14, 2011 6:53 pm

Quoting UK_Dispatcher (Reply 17):
Let me know when you get to the UAE. It would be good to meet you.

Thank you! I met Airxliban on one of my trips. I'll know if my trip is for real sometime in June.
 
Quokka
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Fri May 20, 2011 7:10 am

Well out "valued guest" has been found guilty and sentence has been passed.

The court heard that he gave different accounts of what he told police, considered the plea of his lawyer and imposed a custodial sentence of not seven years but one month.
Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/19/american-jailed-in-dubai

Is that still reason enough to "issue an advisory warning U.S. Citizens to not travel to the UAE for any reason outside of diplomatic, and advising all U.S. Citizens in Dubai to return home" or "ban EK of all landing rights in the US until all Americans arrested for nonsense laws are released?"

You'll be pleased to know that in the past two weeks I travelled through Dubai twice and was arrested during neither visit. But then, I wasn't stealing government property or running drugs.  



Edited to add link.





[Edited 2011-05-20 00:12:47]
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Fri May 20, 2011 10:48 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
an allegation he says he only confessed to after being tortured.

So he says, where is the proof?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
My advice would be not to go. I won't set foot near the place. One false step in front of the wrong person and your gig might be a lot longer than two years. You have NO rights there and you can be detained essentially at will, with flimsy excuses to justify it to the international community.

I get that you have an anti Emirates due to there dislike of gay persons but cut the crap, my company has an office in Dubai which has been running for years, the guy running it is an openly gay rather extravagant Swede, he's never had any issues.

You can detained in the US just as easily, you could end up in gitmo and spend years there for just having the wrong name, get tortured and confess to all sorts of things, same deal isn't it.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Fri May 20, 2011 3:35 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 19):
"issue an advisory warning U.S. Citizens to not travel to the UAE for any reason outside of diplomatic, and advising all U.S. Citizens in Dubai to return home" or "ban EK of all landing rights in the US until all Americans arrested for nonsense laws are released?"

LOL. I love the banning of landing rights. I was all set to tell my buddies no more pics of the EK 380.   
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
wn700driver
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 21, 2011 5:58 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):

You can detained in the US just as easily, you could end up in gitmo and spend years there for just having the wrong name, get tortured and confess to all sorts of things, same deal isn't it.

That's on the extreme end that probably won't happen to you. It gets worse though. We have many smaller rights infringements that go unnoticed or un-complained about everyday here that I know for fact bewilder some of my european friends. For example, something as mundane as a divorce proceeding can irrevocably ruin your life.
It sounds silly, but I'm totally serious there. Why? Because it's an area where financial, travel, and even items related to free speech can be sanctioned (Americanese for "we're taking these 'rights' away from you") with NO DUE PROCESS whatsoever. It amazes me to no end that more red blooded 'merkins aren't outraged by these things.

And how about the way we're treating the IMF president? I can totally understand how our friends from France are outraged over this. Presumption of innocence, my arse!

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):
my company has an office in Dubai which has been running for years, the guy running it is an openly gay rather extravagant Swede, he's never had any issues.

So, serious question then. What is the general attitude towards gays there like?
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 21, 2011 6:33 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 22):
Presumption of innocence, my arse!

You might want to read a 1978 US Supreme Court ruling that is posted in that thread. (reply 101)

There is no longer a presumption of innocence once Probable Cause has been deemed met. While not convicted of the accused crime, he/she is no longer presumed to be innocent.

Here is a snip of their longer decision:

After the government has presented enough evidence to constitute probable cause to believe that the defendant has committed a crime, the accused need not be treated as if he or she was innocent of a crime, and the defendant may be jailed with the approval of the court.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
wn700driver
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sat May 21, 2011 11:58 pm

LAX,

The thrust of my argument is an admission that the United States does indeed fail miserably where the "rights" of it's citizens are concerned, and that is somewhat hypocritical to say that we are absolutely better (in that regard) than a place like Dubai, where you just didn't have any to begin with. To be sure, we are still better in some ways, but jailing a foreign citizen for an unproved crime is indeed a huge, catastrophic embarrassment, that frankly, all americans should be ashamed of. There is no question that the drafters of our constitution would never have approved such an abortion as mentioned above. Though it is indeed a technicality that the prosecution is clinging to here, it is merely more evidence of the fascism creep that we are experiencing here. Sad times indeed.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
ozglobal
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sun May 22, 2011 12:20 am

This sort of trap can happen at any time in Arab countries and the UAE are specialists in arbitrary "justice", dished out generally to foreigners of course. The police usually satisfy their appetite for arbitrary punishment on the 3rd class citizens, the itinerant workers from Pakistan, India and other developing countries (i'm edified to read that, OJAS, as an Indian living there, is grateful to be treated only like 'shit' and not as badly as in the '90's - What an inspiring society).

We only hear about it when they attack a member of the 2nd class, the OECD national expat populations. UAE Arabs are largely above the law.

It's one of the reasons I won't be going back to UAE and find it hard to find anything worthy of admiration about the place, apart for I suppose a genius for self-promotion, being just a lot of construction on tiny backwater desert port.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
stratosphere
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Sun May 22, 2011 7:08 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 25):
This sort of trap can happen at any time in Arab countries and the UAE are specialists in arbitrary "justice", dished out generally to foreigners of course. The police usually satisfy their appetite for arbitrary punishment on the 3rd class citizens, the itinerant workers from Pakistan, India and other developing countries (i'm edified to read that, OJAS, as an Indian living there, is grateful to be treated only like 'shit' and not as badly as in the '90's - What an inspiring society).

Just give me another reason to never go there. Even Mexico plays games but usually you throw them few bucks and you can go. They don't hold you for years..But I will never go there or spend my money in Mexico either. Have a lot of places right here in the US I haven't seen yet thats where I will spend my money.
 
lewis
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Mon May 23, 2011 8:23 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Quoting comorin (Reply 5):
Doc, you are scaring the daylights out of me - I may be heading there for a 2-year gig. I believe there are some prescription drugs that are banned there too, so you have to be careful.

My advice would be not to go. I won't set foot near the place. One false step in front of the wrong person and your gig might be a lot longer than two years. You have NO rights there and you can be detained essentially at will, with flimsy excuses to justify it to the international community. In my opinion, any Westerner going to Dubai is taking a huge risk.

Although I have relatives and friends who moved to the UAE and they keep telling me how good it is to live there, this is the reason why I would never set foot to live there. No matter how good salaries are (and they should be, why else would anyone want to live there?), you will always be a "guest" there with no rights whatsoever and can get in very deep trouble for the most random offenses. As a "guest" in a foreign country myself, I do stay out of trouble, but it is nice to know that I am living in a country that respects human rights and due process just in case I find myself in trouble.
 
Rara
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Mon May 23, 2011 8:58 pm

It's not just the legal system.. this story here is lengthy reading, but very interesting:

http://www.b3ta.com/questions/theboss/post460435
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
directorguy
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RE: Another American Detained In Dubai

Tue May 24, 2011 7:13 am

What's scary is that even the most innocent of situations (picking up a handcuff as a souvenir) can have sinister repercussions in the UAE. Granted, it's good that the UAE airport security team spotted the handcuffs, but the initial questioning should have enough to clear this guy.
At this rate, anyone can be detained for any reason in the UAE. Obscure laws are enforced randomly....I remember reading a guy served time for having some poppy seeds on his shoes (he bought a bagel with poppy seeds from Amsterdam or something).

One thing about life in the Gulf-it's not just the Westerners who're targeted. It's also the Indians, Arabs, Nepalese, Filipinos who get treated like this. And then, it doesn't stop there. Even the 'first-class' citizens are subject to paying dearly for what I consider snags in the legal system. The problem doesn't lie with the UAE's treatment of Americans, but rather, their very legal system.

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