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Dreadnought
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Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 12:21 am

It's about time.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/cl...ur-big-nations-20110528-1f9dk.html

Quote:
DEAUVILLE, France: Russia, Japan and Canada told the G8 they would not join a second round of carbon cuts under the Kyoto Protocol at United Nations talks this year and the US reiterated it would remain outside the treaty, European diplomats have said.

You have to love this part... It's all Bush's fault.

Quote:
The US, the second-largest carbon emitter, signed the protocol in 1997 but in 2001 the then president, George W. Bush, said he would not put it to the Senate for ratification.

Clinton told Gore to sign the stupid thing but the Senate passed the Byrd-Hagel resolution in 1997, passing 95-0, which stated the Treaty shouldn’t be signed. So CLINTON never sent it on to the Senate. Bush never signed it, and neither has Obama.

So why throw that line in there other then to highlight their BDS?

Either way, the scam known as Kyoto is dead, with even fewer countries agreeing to such a treaty today as 15 years ago.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 12:59 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Either way, the scam known as Kyoto is dead, with even fewer countries agreeing to such a treaty today as 15 years ago.

Despite major implementation of eco-measures at manufacturing firms that have had little effect other than reducing utility bills, even the host country of the summit has failed to make significant reductions in CO2 emissions. CO2 emissions are a fact of life for any country with the lifestyles that accompany industrialization, put simply.

We should start finding another way to refer to this dumb protocol though - no need to drag a storied and beautiful city's name through the mud every time.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Derico
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 1:01 am

However, there is absolutely no moral ground now for developed countries to ask developing ones like Brazil, Ecuador, Central Africa, Indonesia, etc, to stop cutting down their rainforest.

Many of these governments said that if Kyoto went down, they could not defend setting back their development because rich countries are concerned about the ''rainforest''. Either they pay hefty sums to keep it protected, or it's going up in smoke.

Already last year was a record for rainforest loss.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
Superfly
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 2:45 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Either way, the scam known as Kyoto is dead, with even fewer countries agreeing to such a treaty today as 15 years ago.

Good riddance to bad legislation!
Let this be the beginning of the end of the man-made global warming/climate change hysteria.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 5:11 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
Many of these governments said that if Kyoto went down, they could not defend setting back their development because rich countries are concerned about the ''rainforest''. Either they pay hefty sums to keep it protected, or it's going up in smoke.

Already last year was a record for rainforest loss.

Deforestation is a serious, albeit mostly unrelated issue of poor land management. Countries eliminate their native nonrenewable biological resources at their own peril.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Asturias
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 11:44 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
Deforestation is a serious, albeit mostly unrelated issue of poor land management. Countries eliminate their native nonrenewable biological resources at their own peril.

Yeah well, the rainforest non-renewable resource is eliminated at *our* peril, not just their. I don't see any problem with forcing the hand of less developed nations in this regard, they don't seem to appreciate the problem.

asturias
Tonight we fly
 
UAL747
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 11:51 am

Why are people anti-environmentalist? Regardless of whether you believe in global warming, you have to admit that human's impact on the earth is much more vast than say, the common housefly. Not to mention, we have a conscious, which means we should be sensitive to what we do environmentally. I agree, some people have gone way too far with it, BUT, I do believe in global warming, even if it is only 1 degree every 10 years. The problem non believers have is that 1 degree every 10 or even 100 years has a HUGE impact on what's going on.

I think that the Earth itself is a living organism and has it's own immune responses. I think one day it will respond to us. I'm not hysteric, just practical.....

Edit: But it's also hypocritical for us to have a treaty where the hosting country can't immensely cut down on emissions, but then again, with population growth, is it possible? As for developing countries, if we hold them to a higher standard, it's also hypocritical, however, we should hold them to our own standards, and those standards should not be compromised just because a country is trying to develop. This is not 1940.

UAL

[Edited 2011-05-30 04:53:16]
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Mir
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 1:26 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
Countries eliminate their native nonrenewable biological resources at their own peril.

Unfortunately, environmental damage tends not to confine itself to national borders.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
Why are people anti-environmentalist?

Because people dislike the environmentalist stereotype. And not without good reason. But that doesn't mean that sensible environmental policy is a bad idea.

As for Kyoto, it was a decent idea, but it's taken too long to get started to be worth it anymore. It would be more effective to get a whole new agreement together, one that the US can actually take part in this time.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 1:42 pm

Shame, but if the US never actually took part in it and the host country also didn't do anything, then it was fairly pointless. Unfortunately, the mentality of "let another one make cuts, I won't do anything" will only come to bite us in the end.

I mean, come on. Who cares if the Amazon is torn down? They're trees that don't mean anything to me. Who cares if coral reefs get bleached out? More beaches for me to enjoy. Who cares if a bird or an amphibian or a reptile goes extinct? They're no use for us anyway.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 1:43 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
As for Kyoto, it was a decent idea, but it's taken too long to get started to be worth it anymore. It would be more effective to get a whole new agreement together, one that the US can actually take part in this time.

And don't forget China, now the number one polluter in the world and growing fast. If China is not willing do handicap itself the same as the rest, then no agreement is better.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
Superfly
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 2:23 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
Why are people anti-environmentalist?

For the same reason many people are anti-Christian fundamentalist, anti-Islamic fundamentalist and anti-Israeli hardliners.
Environmentalism is a new religion that uses fear tactics and their leaders are a bunch of fraudulent snake-oil salesmen.
They're all cut from the same cloth.
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Klaus
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 3:04 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
Environmentalism is a new religion that uses fear tactics and their leaders are a bunch of fraudulent snake-oil salesmen.
They're all cut from the same cloth.

Sure. And smoking is good for your lungs as well.

Some ideas take a while from being laughed at, then fought against, then criticized until they finally become completely obvious main stream when basically everybody finally clues up.

Blindly raping and pillaging the natural resources we depend on is completely obviously a very bad idea. And some people switch from being part of the problem to being part of the solution earlier than others. It's the same thing as in most other major changes.

Some people are just blind for the future and need to get dragged towards it, even if kicking and screaming if that's what it takes. That is absolutely nothing new. It's always been that way.
 
Superfly
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 3:09 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):

Those comments could have came from a Reverend, Rabbi or Imam as well.
I refuse to live in fear.
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Derico
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 3:11 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 5):
Yeah well, the rainforest non-renewable resource is eliminated at *our* peril, not just their. I don't see any problem with forcing the hand of less developed nations in this regard, they don't seem to appreciate the problem.

So what you are going to do, keep them poor and illiterate for ever?? Andincreasingly, Europe or the USA have less and less power over countries who are accumulating savings and monetary reserves, while the former need more and more debt to stay afloat.

They are cutting the forest for new grazing land for cattle, it's not even so much for farmland, or to build new roads and towns.

The bottom line is rich countries havre no morality or respectable standing on environmental issues. And most developing countries are simply too desperate to increase wealth to care or educate their citizens.

It doesn't help the problem that environmental organizations have become radicalized. They may say they oppose nuclear, coal, and oil, and support wind and solar. But then if someone wants to build one of those they oppose them too because of some local species under threat. Then they'll say they support hydro, but then turn around and oppose that too. Too many of those groups just want to halt all development so people are forced to a much lower living standard.

I'm personally not opposed gently coaxing lifestyle changes through pricing, regulation and education, but not to the tipping point that the poor suffer and the middle class shrinks.
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Superfly
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 3:17 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 13):

Good points raised.

What do you make of this synopsis of the environmentalist origins and goals;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYl4hkFRdTk
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Asturias
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 6:20 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 13):
So what you are going to do, keep them poor and illiterate for ever?? Andincreasingly, Europe or the USA have less and less power over countries who are accumulating savings and monetary reserves, while the former need more and more debt to stay afloat.

Not really addressing that. Stop them from abusing this resource, because it isn't their's to abuse. Be they poor or rich.

One doesn't need to be patronizing towards these nations in order to fix this issue and the abuse of these resources isn't helping them anyway. The land they get for grazing lasts only a short time.

Spare me the western PC guilt trip. This is serious business.

asturias
Tonight we fly
 
Klaus
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Mon May 30, 2011 7:32 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
Those comments could have came from a Reverend, Rabbi or Imam as well.

Well, when you're holding your own eyes shut in fear that you could see things that might trouble you, you just can't know the difference between real developments which are clear to see and mere "Religion".

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
I refuse to live in fear.

When I'm looking at a real development that is actually happening in the real world and when I'm trying to help preventing the worst of it, that is a verified and substantiated fear which motivates an active and constructive response.

But when you're just too scared to even look at the real problems, that is just passive denial, leaving the hard work to everybody else around you.

Quoting Derico (Reply 13):
So what you are going to do, keep them poor and illiterate for ever??

Since when is destroying their livelihoods a positive way of preventing that?

Indigenous tribes can very well participate in education and some level of modern advantages at their own choosing.

Quoting Derico (Reply 13):
The bottom line is rich countries havre no morality or respectable standing on environmental issues.

Just "being rich" qualifies for very little, that is true.

But having been through most of the environmental devastation in our own countries and already having made much of the corrective repairs again, that does indeed qualify us for giving some advice; In most cases this advice will only be effective when cooperating eye-to-eye and when subsidizing at least the initial repairs and corrections.

But actual experience with the issue is just hard to replace.
 
Superfly
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Tue May 31, 2011 2:07 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
Well, when you're holding your own eyes shut in fear that you could see things that might trouble you, you just can't know the difference between real developments which are clear to see and mere "Religion".
But when you're just too scared to even look at the real problems, that is just passive denial, leaving the hard work to everybody else around you.

I'm a former treehugger myself. I've done my research and compared to what other scientist have concluded. By the way, the whole premise of climate change is based on junk-science and not all scientist have come to an agreement on this issue.
It's nothing more than a new religion.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Mir
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Tue May 31, 2011 2:13 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
For the same reason many people are anti-Christian fundamentalist, anti-Islamic fundamentalist and anti-Israeli hardliners.

Nice of you to lump all people with an interest in the environment in with the fundamentalists. That would be like me being anti-Christian because I don't like Fred Phelps.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Superfly
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Tue May 31, 2011 3:20 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
That would be like me being anti-Christian because I don't like Fred Phelps.

The environmentalist have more clout than Fred Phelps.
Therefore I consider the environmentalist more dangerous than Fred Phelps.
Bring back the Concorde
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Tue May 31, 2011 3:27 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
No offense, but IIRC from past threads, you own/drive either a V8-powered Mecedes sports car or Land/Range Rover SUV; neither of which are exactly environmentally-friendly vehicles in terms of fuel consumption, carbon footprint and so forth.

Were you aware that had the Kyoto Protocol been enacted; your vehicle and ones like it would have been likely targeted by enviros (can we say Eco-terrorism) ? Many of the Protocol's contents and objectives would've clearly and radically changed/targeted the American way of life or lifestyle; and not just solely in cars and driving. In short, the Kyoto Protocol was basically a dis-mantle-America treaty.

Personally, I'm glad this treaty died.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Longhornmaniac
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Tue May 31, 2011 3:44 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):
I've done my research and compared to what other scientist have concluded. By the way, the whole premise of climate change is based on junk-science and not all scientist have come to an agreement on this issue.

   How do you reconcile your interpretation of the science as "junk science" whereas 96-97% of climate scientists see it entirely differently?

P.S. Looking forward to Bangkok!

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
Superfly
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Tue May 31, 2011 7:35 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 21):

How do you reconcile your interpretation of the science as "junk science" whereas 96-97% of climate scientists see it entirely differently?

30,000+ scientist that have far more education on this matter than me, you and Al Gore and they have all debunked this fraudulent claim of man-made global warming.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 20):
No offense, but IIRC from past threads, you own/drive either a V8-powered Mecedes sports car or Land/Range Rover SUV; neither of which are exactly environmentally-friendly vehicles in terms of fuel consumption, carbon footprint and so forth.

I guess you didn't get the memo. Cars that are 'cute' and driven by Hollywood elitist are exempt.
Bring back the Concorde
 
NoUFO
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Tue May 31, 2011 10:56 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):
30,000+ scientist that have far more education on this matter than me, you and Al Gore and they have all debunked this fraudulent claim of man-made global warming.

No, they have not. That whole paper is a scam.

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
However, there is absolutely no moral ground now for developed countries to ask developing ones like Brazil, Ecuador, Central Africa, Indonesia, etc, to stop cutting down their rainforest.

Yes, there is. We are now smarter than we were back then in the 50s through 70s.
Here's an interesting quote:

Quote:
“The Nobel Laureate Symposium has answered this emergency call from the future: environment and development must go hand in hand. Human pressures are challenging the resilience of the planet, while inequalities remain high. The only way to move towards fair and lasting prosperity for present and future generations is along a pathway of environmental sustainability. The time for procrastination is over. We cannot afford the luxury of denial, ” says Professor Johan Rockström, Symposium chairperson and Executive Director of the Stockholm Resilience Centre and Stockholm Environment Institute (SEI).
http://globalsymposium2011.org/news-and-media/memorandum

[Edited 2011-05-31 16:12:44]
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cargolex
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Tue May 31, 2011 11:39 pm

Quote:
30,000+ scientist that have far more education on this matter than me, you and Al Gore and they have all debunked this fraudulent claim of man-made global warming.

With all due respect, you're wrong. There's overwhelming scientific evidence that not only is it real, there's not really very much we can do to stop it even if we all wanted to. The "scientists" who speak out about how "Global Warming is a Hoax" are the very same ones who think Chemtrails are real and who once worked for Tobacco companies to prove that cigarettes weren't harmful to humans in any way.

You don't have to like Al Gore, you don't have to drive a Prius (I don't), you don't have to like it. But the delusion that this is some big hoax and we should all go back to living how people lived in say, 1958 - it's time to give that up, because that's neither reality nor the future.

As far as Kyoto, well, it's hard to be sad about something so ineffective being gone. But I think people "celebrating" the demise of the Kyoto accords are kind of cheering humanity's ability to do absolutely nothing in the face of a serious problem. That's not much to crow about.

[Edited 2011-05-31 16:39:47]
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:18 am

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 21):
How do you reconcile your interpretation of the science as "junk science" whereas 96-97% of climate scientists see it entirely differently?

As "junk" as that statistic you just quoted.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 24):
The "scientists" who speak out about how "Global Warming is a Hoax" are the very same ones who think Chemtrails are real and who once worked for Tobacco companies to prove that cigarettes weren't harmful to humans in any way.

Source?

I consider myself an environmentalist, in that I insist that industry that can cause significant environmental damage (strip mining, lumber, oil drilling etc) be required under very strict penalties to fix the damage they cause, and that emitters should be required to use every bit of technology available to limit what they put out.

However I draw the line when environmentalism doesn't allow any activity at all. For instance we have nearly 2.5 trillion barrels of oil reserves in the US, and less than 1% of it is allowed to be accessed because of environmental restrictions. With all the money oil imports costs us, and with the hundreds of thousands of much-needed jobs that it would give us, Environmentalists need to take a back seat on this one.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
NoUFO
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:59 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
Quoting CargoLex (Reply 24):
The "scientists" who speak out about how "Global Warming is a Hoax" are the very same ones who think Chemtrails are real and who once worked for Tobacco companies to prove that cigarettes weren't harmful to humans in any way.

Source?

Most publications (IIRC a recent study said ~90%) come from institutions like the Heartland Institute or Cato Institute - the same groups that claimed (or still say) 2nd hand smoke would not harm your body and CFCs would not damage the ozone layer. They first said there was no global warming at all, then they said the warming could not be linked to CO2, and recently they have shifted slightly towards the stance that anthropogenic CO2 was in fact the main reason but the effects of global warming would be slim. Same with cigarettes: First they said tobacco smoke would not be harmful, then they said smoking can be harmful but not *that* harmful, now they say the same about 2nd hand smoke. Same with CFCs: First denial ('doesn't exist'), then appeasement ('not that bad').

As for chemtrails I can only speak for Germany, but the only (fringe) paper claiming chemtrails would exist says global warming would not.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
As "junk" as that statistic you just quoted.

Why? The number is correct.

[Edited 2011-05-31 18:01:31]
I support the right to arm bears
 
Superfly
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:56 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 23):
No, they have not. That whole paper is a scam.

The Chicago Climate exchange, failed Cap & Trade legislation and the Kyoto Treaty was a scam.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 24):
The "scientists" who speak out about how "Global Warming is a Hoax" are the very same ones who think Chemtrails are real and who once worked for Tobacco companies to prove that cigarettes weren't harmful to humans in any way.

That isn't true.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 24):
You don't have to like Al Gore,

I do like Al Gore and I voted for him in 2000 only because I didn't like Dubya.
It's too bad that Gore wasted his political capital on this hoax.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 24):
But the delusion that this is some big hoax and we should all go back to living how people lived in say, 1958 - it's time to give that up, because that's neither reality nor the future.

Tell that to China, Russia, India and all other developing nations that want to get ahead.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 24):
I think people "celebrating" the demise of the Kyoto accords are kind of cheering humanity's ability to do absolutely nothing in the face of a serious problem. That's not much to crow about.

Well we can go to confession and repent for our environmental sins.   
Bring back the Concorde
 
Longhornmaniac
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:13 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):
30,000+ scientist that have far more education on this matter than me, you and Al Gore and they have all debunked this fraudulent claim of man-made global warming.

   Give me a link, because if you're citing what I think you are, that entire thing is a GIGANTIC scam, and wasn't even close to a majority of scientists, much less climate scientists.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 23):
No, they have not. That whole paper is a scam.

   ding ding ding.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
As "junk" as that statistic you just quoted.

Dreadnought, I expect better of you. Doran and Zimmerman 2009 and Anderegg et al. 2010 both say you're wrong.

And just for those that insist on having this debate, ^ that is how you have a scientific discussion. Support your claims with evidence from the peer-reviewed literature. Not links to Anthony Watts' blog, or talking points from a news article, raw, untainted scientific literature. Anyone can f*** up an interpretation of the science, and it certainly appears plenty of people do (including most of the climate skeptics, who have absolutely no training in climatology), but I want the actual scientific reports.

My hypothesis as to why I never get them in this argument: because the "skeptics" don't really have any.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
474218
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:25 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
Why are people anti-environmentalist?


The problem with environmentalists is that they have forgotten that the human beings are part of mature.

They look at humans as an alien life force bent on destroying the plaint.
 
Longhornmaniac
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:12 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 29):
The problem with environmentalists is that they have forgotten that the human beings are part of mature.

No, we don't forget that. What we do know is that with increasing technology, we have the capacity to change the planet in such a way which no species has ever been able to do, particularly on the time scale we can.

These abilities, though they have resulted in many, many great things, they are not without some cost. The brunt of this cost is environmental, whether through pollution, deforestation due to land use changes, or something else.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 29):
They look at humans as an alien life force bent on destroying the plaint.

I can't speak for all environmentalists, but personally I don't believe there is any ill intention in either the average person or the human race as a whole. Whether or not there is bad intent, it doesn't change the fact that environmental degradation is occurring at unprecedented rates, at our hands, and because we're responsible, it's also our responsibility (as much for our own preservation as anything else) to change our ways.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
Klaus
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:34 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):
30,000+ scientist that have far more education on this matter than me, you and Al Gore and they have all debunked this fraudulent claim of man-made global warming.

If you're trying to make this about competence in the respective field, then the only thing that matters is the ratio of actual climatologists supporting / criticizing the consensus(!) view.

And the people actually participating in the research and having to subject their claims and statements to experimentation, real-world observation and peer review almost unanimously state that climate change is in fact happening (one look at Greenland should at least give you a strong hint) and it is highly likely that at least most of it is anthropogenic.

Psychologists, economists or other people with a degree in some other field have practically no credibility to lend to this topic. Quite to the contrary, misrepresenting themselves as authorities in a field which they have no education or working experience in would put their scientific credentials into a highly questionable light, to put it mildly. It borders on fraud.

When you're taking papers published by partisan pressure groups based on polls among people with no actual topical research backing at face value, you're deluding yourself.

But that's the whole point of such papers: Providing a thin varnish of respectability on highly dubious or untenable claims so people who don't want to know can pretend whatever they want.

When you're actually researching the field, you have to content with verifiable ovservations and real-life facts, however.

And as the saying goes: Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts!
 
windy95
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RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:48 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
However, there is absolutely no moral ground now for developed countries to ask developing ones like Brazil, Ecuador, Central Africa, Indonesia, etc, to stop cutting down their rainforest.

Comparing apples to oranges. Though land use is a large part of the change in local climates taking oil from the ground has no impact on thousands of species of plants, animals, insects and fish.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
Deforestation is a serious, albeit mostly unrelated issue of poor land management. Countries eliminate their native nonrenewable biological resources at their own peril.

Correct.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
I mean, come on. Who cares if the Amazon is torn down? They're trees that don't mean anything to me

it.

But they do to the tribes and creatures that live in

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
Who cares if coral reefs get bleached out? More beaches for me to enjoy. Who cares if a bird or an amphibian or a reptile goes extinct? They're no use for us anyway.

A recent study from Japan showed overall reef health. Everything from the alarmist is threats that will happen in the future if we do not change our evil ways. But just like land use for the forests the biggest impact to reefs is also land use with runoffs and fishing being at the top of the list as threats. Coral systems survived warmer times and higher CO2 in the past.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
For the same reason many people are anti-Christian fundamentalist, anti-Islamic fundamentalist and anti-Israeli hardliners.
Environmentalism is a new religion that uses fear tactics and their leaders are a bunch of fraudulent snake-oil salesmen.
They're all cut from the same cloth

Correct.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 21):
How do you reconcile your interpretation of the science as "junk science" whereas 96-97% of climate scientists see it entirely differently

Not...Another scam poll to try to bolster tha sagging numbers for the alarmist.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 23):
No, they have not. That whole paper is a scam

Sure it is...

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 24):
With all due respect, you're wrong. There's overwhelming scientific evidence that not only is it real, there's not really very much we can do to stop it even if we all wanted to. The "scientists" who speak out about how "Global Warming is a Hoax" are the very same ones who think Chemtrails are real and who once worked for Tobacco companies to prove that cigarettes weren't harmful to humans in any way

Wow...You really need to read more.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 26):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
As "junk" as that statistic you just quoted.

Why? The number is correct

No it is another number to make a bad number look good.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 28):
Dreadnought, I expect better of you. Doran and Zimmerman 2009 and Anderegg et al. 2010 both say you're wrong

The claimed 97% consensus reveals that it comes from a non-peer reviewed article describing an online poll in which a total of only 79 climate scientists chose to participate. Of the 79 self-selected climate scientists, 75 agreed with the notion of AGW. Thus, we find climate scientists once again using dubious statistical techniques to deceive the public. The question aked of them is flawed, "Do you think human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures?" .. The question was not asked to where the blame may lie and to what percentage. But no we will stick with a consensus that the culprit is CO2 that live giving source..

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
If you're trying to make this about competence in the respective field, then the only thing that matters is the ratio of actual climatologists supporting / criticizing the consensus(!) view.

Of which we have no clue. And to those that do support AGW to what extent and what they beieve to be the actual cause is also not known. But of course we know that to the global warning religion CO2 is the Devil.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
Psychologists, economists or other people with a degree in some other field have practically no credibility to lend to this topic.

Ah yes the everyone else is stupid defense.
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:45 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 32):
Thus, we find climate scientists once again using dubious statistical techniques to deceive the public. The question aked of them is flawed, "Do you think human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures?" .. The question was not asked to where the blame may lie and to what percentage. But no we will stick with a consensus that the culprit is CO2 that live giving source..

Here's the form. Could you please help me find the quote you provided?

http://www.realclimate.org/docs/survey08.pdf

Edit: besides, the consensus of climate scientists is what you read in the IPCC report. You know the IPCC only collects and subsumes scientific research over the last years.

[Edited 2011-06-01 06:49:28]
I support the right to arm bears
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10022
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:09 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
Deforestation is a serious, albeit mostly unrelated issue of poor land management.

Land management and specifically land use is something which there needs to be a greater understanding of in relation to regional climatic change. There is a greater warming potential on much of the Earth's surface now compared to 500 years ago through the development of mass-agriculture.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 32):
Ah yes the everyone else is stupid defense.

You wouldn't get a doctor to wire your house, would you?
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 2972
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:21 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 32):
non-peer reviewed article

Umm, what? Doran and Zimmerman 2009 was published in Eos, a peer-reviewed newsletter of the American Geophysical Union, and Anderegg et al. 2010 was published in the Proceedings for the National Academy of Sciences, considered to be the most prestigeous peer reviewed journal in the U.S. after Science and Nature.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 32):
Not...Another scam poll to try to bolster tha sagging numbers for the alarmist.

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? You can't even come close to supporting the claim that a pretty profound piece of evidence is actually just evidence of a scam of the highest order. It's simply nutty.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Topic Author
Posts: 9928
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:10 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 35):

Umm, what? Doran and Zimmerman 2009 was published in Eos, a peer-reviewed newsletter of the American Geophysical Union

The problem is that the survey was in no way scientific.

http://tigger.uic.edu/~pdoran/012009_Doran_final.pdf

They sent out the questionaires, and 30% responded, giving you that 90+% rate. But that is worthless, as the only people responding would be those with a particular interest in that field. If I were someone who depended on grant money, I would respond, otherwise I'd ignore it.

It's exactly the same problem with non-scientific polls elsewhere. If you had a poll on the front page of the Daily Kos asking "Would you vote for Obama or some Republican yet unnamed?", and you got a 90% vote for Obama, you can't put any credence to that.

The only meaningful poll would be if someone got a field of climatologists from all over and got responses from a vast majority of them.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 2972
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:35 pm

I've read their methodology many times before, and I respectfully disagree with your assertion that the only people that would respond are people with a vested interest in it. Furthermore, I think it's fallacious to argue that grant money in any way played any sort of role. Since the names aren't public, there's no incentive for anyone to respond one way or another, and they certainly weren't being judged/scrutinized by any third party based on their individual answers.

It's just as easy and valid to argue that the alleged sizeable population of climate scientist skeptics would have a similar vested interest in having their voices heard, and given that we don't see that, one can conclude one of two things: 1) that it's all part of a gigantic conspiracy, or 2) that they don't exist.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
windy95
Posts: 2660
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:39 pm

Still no catostrophic warming..

http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/UAH_LT_1979_thru_Apr_20111.gif


Sea levels

http://www.ozclimatesense.com/2011/0...els-not-behaving-in-line-with.html

900 Peer reviewed studies

http://www.populartechnology.net/200...er-reviewed-papers-supporting.html

Sea ice still trending in the 30 year average

http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/seaice/extent/AMSRE_Sea_Ice_Extent_L.png

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
The only meaningful poll would be if someone got a field of climatologists from all over and got responses from a vast majority of them.

And if they actually asked specifics on the questions. Portion, causes, percentages..etc
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:03 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 34):
You wouldn't get a doctor to wire your house, would you?

Nor should we have lawyers telling manufactures how to run their business and tell people what kinds of cars they can & can't buy.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
And as the saying goes: Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts!

I can say the same thing to you as well.  
Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 21):
P.S. Looking forward to Bangkok!

Look forward to hanging out with you as well.
BTW, Bangkok had it's coldest winter in over 45 years.
I had to wear a sweater riding in a tuk tuk.
Bring back the Concorde
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:35 am

If the amount of time people spent on "research" trying to uncover a giant conspiracy was actually spent on reducing emissions we probably would be fine.
 
windy95
Posts: 2660
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:44 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
And as the saying goes: Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts!

I can say the same thing to you as well.




Contrary to the IPCC and others the science is not settled. But as long as scientific funding by governments stays focused on model simulation supporting preconceived views rather than the development of scientific theory sopported by testing we will continue to see junk science. Follow the alarmist money and it goes right to the teet of big government,
 
Klaus
Posts: 20648
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:23 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
And as the saying goes: Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts!

I can say the same thing to you as well.

That's the whole point – it applies to absolutely everybody.

The whole point behind science is that its only measure is observable reality and that scientific research is designed to converge towards ever more precise explanations of reality.

And if you want to know what the actual state of scientific research in climatology is, do you really think that asking psychologists, economists or biologists polled by oil industry lobby groups will be the smarter choice rather than asking actual climatologists who get paid regardless of the direction of their conclusions?

This choice of yours seems rather peculiar, to put it this way.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):
Contrary to the IPCC and others the science is not settled.

Among actual climatologists, the main questions – namely whether climate change is under way and whether human activities are the probable main driver – actually are settled.

"The" science as in every last imaginable question is never absolutely settled in any field of natural science.

It is of course still possible that climatologists might one day find their current consensus to have been incorrect and in need of a 180 degree reversal, but there is simply no significant support for this position at this time, and the evidence keeps stacking up against it day by day.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):
But as long as scientific funding by governments stays focused on model simulation supporting preconceived views rather than the development of scientific theory sopported by testing we will continue to see junk science. Follow the alarmist money and it goes right to the teet of big government,

There is no actual evidence that such an immense conspiracy was actually going on. And too many climatologists would have to gain a lot more by disproving climate change than by confirming it and yet it stays the consensus of actual climate researchers.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
Still no catostrophic warming..

Even just in the very short window this graph displays the warming trend is unmistakeable. It is clearly visible that there are the usual short-term deviations, but also that there is a larger-scale upwards trend which is further underscored the larger the time scale chosen.

File:Instrumental Temperature Record.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Instrumental_Temperature_Record.png/770px-Instrumental_Temperature_Record.png

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
Sea levels

The upwards slope is also obvious here, even though it's just six years which is next to meaningless for a major trend.

This gives a better view of the larger trend:

File:Recent Sea Level Rise.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


What your whole posts effectively amounts to is claiming that the past year with its particularly cold winter on the northern hemisphere somehow nullified a much larger trend already running through more than one hundred years.

That Hypothesis is already statistically unsound which forces its rejection. And increased weather variations have indeed been predicted during the ongoing climate change. Your own graphs are quite in line with that, too.

Unfortunately the prediction is that even further extremes on the upside are to be expected as well. It would be great if this would turn out not to be the case, but recent observations give little hope of the consensus theory being incorrect after all.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:32 pm

Looks like the Kyoto Treaty is as dead as the Soviet Union.
A lot of people hoping to rake in billion$ of dollar$ are crowing over this I'm sure. Will there be a support group for these distraught global warming fundamentalist?
Bring back the Concorde
 
User avatar
speedygonzales
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:01 pm

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:25 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
Sea ice still trending in the 30 year average

You must be incredibly gullible if you believe that.
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seaice.anomaly.arctic.png
Las Malvinas son Argentinas
 
windy95
Posts: 2660
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:17 pm

Another welcome victim of the Kyoto collapse...

Quote:
The international market in carbon credits has suffered an almost total collapse, with only $1.5bn (£916m) of credits traded last year - the lowest since the market opened in 2005, according to a report from the World Bank.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen.../world-bank-failing-carbon-markets

With the American exchange already clolsed hopefully the carbon trading scam will be a thing of the past.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:45 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 45):
Another welcome victim of the Kyoto collapse...

Quote:
The international market in carbon credits has suffered an almost total collapse, with only $1.5bn (£916m) of credits traded last year - the lowest since the market opened in 2005, according to a report from the World Bank.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen.../world-bank-failing-carbon-markets

With the American exchange already clolsed hopefully the carbon trading scam will be a thing of the past.

Now THAT's the kind of 'Hope' and 'Change" I can support!   
Bring back the Concorde
 
windy95
Posts: 2660
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:05 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
Even just in the very short window this graph displays the warming trend is unmistakeable. It is clearly visible that there are the usual short-term deviations, but also that there is a larger-scale upwards trend which is further underscored the larger the time scale chosen.

There is no surging upward trend in your graph. It is simply sleight of hand magic tricks. Put the years closer together and the temps farther apart and you can make anything look vertical. Good to see you used wiki links instead of actual up to the moment data from the agencies that track temps and sea level.

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 44):
You must be incredibly gullible if you believe that

Total ice
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/global.daily.ice.area.withtrend.jpg

Southern ice
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.anom.south.jpg

And the artic ice melt does not proove global warming nor can it positively be attributed to it. Ocean PDO's plus polution such as soot have also been linked to the artic. No out of contol warming here.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:59 pm

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 24):
With all due respect, you're wrong. There's overwhelming scientific evidence that not only is it real, there's not really very much we can do to stop it even if we all wanted to.

Are you talking about "man-made" global warming or just global warming in general. I agree that the globe is warming, just as it has done many many times in the past. How much man has to do with it is debatable. How much we can do to alter it is even more debatable. There is absolutely nothing we can do to stop it.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 34):
Land management and specifically land use is something which there needs to be a greater understanding of in relation to regional climatic change. There is a greater warming potential on much of the Earth's surface now compared to 500 years ago through the development of mass-agriculture.

Not to mention the growth of cities and urban centers.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
Even just in the very short window this graph displays the warming trend is unmistakeable

Wasn't the planet coming off what was termed a "mini-ice age" in the late 1800's? If so you would expect the trend to be a warming one. The temperatures we are experiencing now are nowhere near the hottest the planet has endured over the past 100 million years. If we were to surpass those figures then I could understand the rush to blame man. So far though it looks as if the planetary pendulum is just swinging back the other way after several hundred years of being on the cool side. It certainly has heated up and cooled down just as quickly in the past.


I agree with SuperFly, man-made global warming believers are every bit as dogmatic about their science/religion as any other. Skeptics are quickly treated as heretics and if we were living just a few hundred years ago, they most likely would be hung (as burning at the stake produces heat) or tortured until they recanted their blasphemies.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
windy95
Posts: 2660
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Kyoto Treaty Dies

Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:21 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 48):
Skeptics are quickly treated as heretics and if we were living just a few hundred years ago, they most likely would be hung (as burning at the stake produces heat) or tortured until they recanted their blasphemies.

They are already ridiculed, removed from positions and censored. Imagine what would of happened to them back in the day..

Let us not forget the alarmist not making public all the raw data, all the data manipulations, and all the computer
codes, with manuals and explanations. FOIA's request being contested in courts or just flat out ignored when attempting to receive any of this info. CO2 based climate disruption and out of control warming is just a green party fantasy.

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