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AirPacific747
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Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:09 am

The state of Texas has released a list of the last statements made by Death Row inmates before they get executed.

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/executedoffenders.htm

I thought I'd share the link with you, and maybe start a debate for and against having death penalty.

Personally, I am against the death penalty, but I see why it might be useful in some places. However, I am sure innocent people get executed from time to time, and I think that is the biggest reason why the death penalty shouldn't be allowed.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:23 am

Our justice system is the best in the world. With DNA since the mid 90s and tons of appeals available I I doubt we are executing innocent people. Like Texas I believe in hang em high. If you make a decision to take a life you better be prepared to have yours taken.

Oh yea it's not a deterrent. It's justice.
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Springbok747
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:12 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Thread starter):
The state of Texas has released a list of the last statements made by Death Row inmates before they get executed.

This is nothing new..it has always existed. They even used to have a link to what the last meals of the executed inmates were, but they seem to have removed it.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
Like Texas I believe in hang em high. If you make a decision to take a life you better be prepared to have yours taken.

  

Its funny how so many people are opposed to the death penalty and think the death of a convicted murderer is a tragedy. Yet the deaths and suffering of countless victims is only an easily-ignored statistic.
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Severnaya
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:18 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
Our justice system is the best in the world.

That remains to be seen:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent
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EDICHC
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:36 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
I I doubt we are executing innocent people.

It happens with a frequency that may frighten you, see Severnaya's post above (I was going to quote the same source)

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 2):
Its funny how so many people are opposed to the death penalty and think the death of a convicted murderer is a tragedy. Yet the deaths and suffering of countless victims is only an easily-ignored statistic.

Do you think the execution of a wrongly convicted, innocent person is justice? There are many instances of unsafe convictions. If an innocent person is wrongly executed, who is accountable? If a person is wrongly executed then the judicial system is guilty of premeditated murder.

No-one who opposes the death penalty disregards the victims, it's just that there is more to justice than an 'eye for a eye' mentality.

By all means if the will is there have your death penalty, but to be fair if a person is wrongly convicted and executed the let the Police investigators, Trial Judge and State Prosecutors all follow their victim to the execution chamber.
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wn700driver
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:40 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):

Our justice system is the best in the world.

LOL, out to infinity! And then squared.

I guess you haven't noticed that clown fest in central florida recently...

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
With DNA since the mid 90s and tons of appeals available I I doubt we are executing innocent people

Seriously though, we execute more innocent people than any developed nation on earth, both in absolute numbers and by percentages. There are a lot of things we do right in the US, but our "justice" system is a complete joke. If it wasn't, Ray Krone wouldn't have had the dubious honor of being the 100th person to receive the death penalty only to have been found innocent later on... http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Ray_Krone.php

The frightening thing is that even now, states are still getting in the way of groups like Innocence Project and allowing very questionable executions to occur. A disgusting waste of tax dollars it is to perpetrate this incompetence I think we can all agree...

It's an interesting case, because Ray was not some run of the mill criminal who got in just a little too much trouble this time. Rather, he was an upstanding citizen who had an honorable military discharge and seven years in the postal service. His life was destroyed (for a large percentage of it anyway; more than enough to constitute a gross injustice no doubt) for no good reason. It illustrates that this sort of thing really can happen to anyone. I would say that's enough to disqualify America from being the "best" WRT justice systems.

One wonders why the prosecution who tried to murder this man hasn't been disincentivized properly...
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NIKV69
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:54 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 5):
Seriously though, we execute more innocent people than any developed nation on earth, both in absolute numbers and by percentages. There are a lot of things we do right in the US, but our "justice" system is a complete joke. If it wasn't, Ray Krone wouldn't have had the dubious honor of being the 100th person to receive the death penalty only to have been found innocent later on... http://www.innocenceproject.org/Cont...e.php

100 people lol? Give me a break. Even I give you all the ones sourced in reply 3 that would be 9 not 100. Also the last would have been convicted in 92'. With todays courts and DNA I doubt we will see an innocent man or woman put to death again. So I am not going to throw out the death penalty. Sorry.
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travelavnut
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:58 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
Oh yea it's not a deterrent. It's justice.

Looking at the US crime number it's indeed not a deterrent. But in my opinion it is more about revenge than justice. Executing people, even murderers and rapist, puts a country on the same level as those criminals IMHO. Just the remote possibility of executing the wrong guy should be enough to stop with it.

Having a civilized culture takes costs, one of those costs is locking up criminals instead of killing them.
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NIKV69
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:11 am

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 7):
Looking at the US crime number it's indeed not a deterrent

Yet in countries like Singapore where you get the death penalty for much less and harsher penalties for other crimes their crime rates are quite low.   

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 7):
Having a civilized culture takes costs, one of those costs is locking up criminals instead of killing them.

So a person who took a life during the comission of a crime gets to live out his life with three squares a day, drugs and Lord knows what else he can manage?

No thank you. An eye for an eye.
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RussianJet
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:13 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 2):
Yet the deaths and suffering of countless victims is only an easily-ignored statistic.

On what possible basis do you make that judgement about people who think killing is wrong? Just interested to know how you can know what anyone 'easily ignores' and why, just because they hold an opinion on executions.
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travelavnut
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:20 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 8):
Quoting travelavnut (Reply 7):
Looking at the US crime number it's indeed not a deterrent

Yet in countries like Singapore where you get the death penalty for much less and harsher penalties for other crimes their crime rates are quite low

Very low actually IIRC. Proving my point that there is no connection whatsoever between capital punishment and crime numbers.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 8):

You're reacting emotionally with an eye for an eye, justice is a dish served best un-emotionally. I think it is a very simplistic world view. Should rapist be raped? Or arscons having their house set to fire?

Taking away freedoms is the only possible civilised punishment. I'd rather have the murderer of a family member of mine sitting in a cell the rest of his live over thinking his sins than a few moments of fear and than nothing.
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NIKV69
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:29 am

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 10):
Very low actually IIRC. Proving my point that there is no connection whatsoever between capital punishment and crime numbers.

How exactly? Where a country that has very harsh penalties enjoy a very low crime rate? Problem is the US death penalty isn't nearly as aggressive as Singapore or are our other laws. Rest assured if we put to death every rapist, drug dealer and murderer in the US we would have a very low crime rate.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 10):
You're reacting emotionally with an eye for an eye, justice is a dish served best un-emotionally. I think it is a very simplistic world view. Should rapist be raped? Or arscons having their house set to fire?

Actually doesn't sound like a bad idea at all.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 10):
Taking away freedoms is the only possible civilised punishment. I'd rather have the murderer of a family member of mine sitting in a cell the rest of his live over thinking his sins than a few moments of fear and than nothing.

Problem is they don't. They are too busy building shanks to jack someone or making contraband or working out.
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Springbok747
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:07 am

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 4):
Do you think the execution of a wrongly convicted, innocent person is justice?

No, never. Killing an innocent person is not justice..its murder. But the point is..there are enough checks in place to ensure we don't kill innocent people. I highly doubt the US has actually executed an innocent person since resuming executions in 1976.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 5):
I guess you haven't noticed that clown fest in central florida recently...

Her baby drowned by accident, she panicked, got a tattoo, entered a hot body contest, and oh yeah, put duct tape over her child's innocent mouth, then went about her business for almost a month, then blamed it on a baby sitter. And of course she is innocent. Yeah...right.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
Just interested to know how you can know what anyone 'easily ignores' and why, just because they hold an opinion on executions.

Just read the news...especially the day when someone is executed. There is hardly any coverage of why they were executed. There is hardly any mention of the victims, or the impact on their families. Instead its just about how inhumane the system is or what the guy had for his last meal..or how state sponsored killing is wrong etc etc.

With a yearly average of 15,000 murders, the fact that the US has executed 1,254 inmates in 35 years is proof that capital punishment has been reserved for the worst of the worst.
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:43 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 12):
But the point is..there are enough checks in place to ensure we don't kill innocent people. I highly doubt the US has actually executed an innocent person since resuming executions in 1976.

Go visit Illinois where they had to stop the death penalty because so many innocent people were ending up on death row. The only way they were saved was when external groups (like journalism students at Northwestern University) did enough investigative research. In Chicago, bad lawyers and corrupt cops created an environment where getting a fair trial was almost impossible.

DNA is great, but it can be tampered with. Not to mention that not all killings necessarily have DNA evidence.
 
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:52 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 2):
Its funny how so many people are opposed to the death penalty and think the death of a convicted murderer is a tragedy. Yet the deaths and suffering of countless victims is only an easily-ignored statistic.

No, some of us think all murder is wrong, whether by individual or state.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
that would be 9 not 100

That's still 9 too many for "the best justice system in the World", no?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
With todays courts and DNA

DNA evidence is not infallable and it's very easy to contaminate DNA samples.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
How exactly? Where a country that has very harsh penalties enjoy a very low crime rate? Problem is the US death penalty isn't nearly as aggressive as Singapore or are our other laws.

What the hell, why not introduce the death penalty for all crime? That would solve the problem once and for all.
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RussianJet
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:04 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 12):
There is hardly any coverage of why they were executed. There is hardly any mention of the victims, or the impact on their families.

Presumably there wasn't no coverage when the defendant was tried and convicted? And in any case, what does that have to do with how a private individual views murder and the death penalty?

Quoting scbriml (Reply 14):
No, some of us think all murder is wrong, whether by individual or state.

  

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 12):
With a yearly average of 15,000 murders, the fact that the US has executed 1,254 inmates in 35 years is proof that capital punishment has been reserved for the worst of the worst.

I doubt it. There is clearly a massively inconsistent approach to the matter from state to state for a start.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Actually doesn't sound like a bad idea at all.

Actually it sounds totally sick.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
Our justice system is the best in the world.

Funnily enough, I'm not going to believe that just on the basis of you pronouncing it to be so.
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aloges
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:15 pm

Executions are state-sponsored, premeditated murder and that's an end of it. Paint it with as much self-righteous outrage at criminals as you like, but the fact remains that an execution is the planned and cold-blooded killing of a human.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 12):
I highly doubt the US has actually executed an innocent person since resuming executions in 1976.

I take it you also doubt gravity?
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:00 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 16):
Paint it with as much self-righteous outrage at criminals as you like, but the fact remains that an execution is the planned and cold-blooded killing of a human.

So basically, you're ok with murder, as long as the government isn't involved. Great mentality to have. Just let it be know to those who kill that the worst that can happen is they get to live for free for the remainder of their life. Awesome!!

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RussianJet
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:09 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 17):
So basically, you're ok with murder, as long as the government isn't involved

Here is the guy's post:

Quoting aloges (Reply 16):
Executions are state-sponsored, premeditated murder and that's an end of it. Paint it with as much self-righteous outrage at criminals as you like, but the fact remains that an execution is the planned and cold-blooded killing of a human.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 12):
I highly doubt the US has actually executed an innocent person since resuming executions in 1976.

I take it you also doubt gravity?

Why would you allege that he is ok with murder when he quite clearly didn't say anything even close to that? It simply does not follow.
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PanHAM
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:31 pm

Question to the Americans here:

Is the police and the state attorneys office legally obliged to look for evidence that exonerates a suspect or are they happy once they found enough evidence against the suspect to have a case?

I sometimes have the impression that in the US justice system suspects have to prove that they are innocent whereas here in Germany it is so that the state has to prove that a suspect is guilty.

Another question : do jurors know what "in dubio pro reo" means, are they briefed to understand that?
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Quokka
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:30 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 16):
Executions are state-sponsored, premeditated murder

While I am personally against capital punishment I disagree with your statement.

True, the court having passed sentence requires the state to arrange the killing of an individual, but it is lawful. We might not like that fact, but lawful execution is not murder. Murder is, depending on the jurisdiction, unlawful homicide with malice aforethought. It is distinguished from other crimes, like manslaughter where death occurs but is not deemed to have been premeditated. State sanctioned killing, where it is lawful and not simply getting rid of political opponents, is not murder any more than the state is committing murder when its soldiers kill someone while on active duty in a war zone.

Murder is a juridical construct that defines some killings but recognises that not all killings are murder.
 
baroque
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:42 pm

Not wanting to get savaged by a Quokka  Wow! , but I must take issue here:

Quoting Quokka (Reply 20):
We might not like that fact, but lawful execution is not murder.

Very "nice"* construct - careful use of the word nice. But when you take into account practices seen to result in the following:

Quoting Severnaya (Reply 3):
That remains to be seen:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/exec...ocent
Quoting wn700driver (Reply 5):
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Ray_Krone.php

your nice distinction tends to fall apart. Remember the journalism students in Illinois who found that many witness statements were impossible (for example one was apparently able to see through through a steel post).

At that point your "nice" definition as lawful execution becomes a variety of murder. Arguably, pre-meditated murder too. Which at least in part was Aloges point?

* http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&a...dOQD4-evgPjm-3HBg&ved=0CBUQkQ4
Fine or subtle

- a nice distinction
 
Quokka
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:01 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 21):
a nice distinction

Yes, I have seen many reports of people having been wrongly convicted of offences that they did not commit. Which is one of the reasons why I stated at the beginning of my post that I am personally against capital punishment.

However, in my opinion that does not justify a statement that all executions by the state are murder.

Now, that wasn't too savage for a Quokka I hope.  
 
NWADC9
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:32 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
I sometimes have the impression that in the US justice system suspects have to prove that they are innocent whereas here in Germany it is so that the state has to prove that a suspect is guilty.

The plantiff (in this case, law enforcement and government attorneys) is responsible for presenting evidence to convict the defendant. All the defendant has to do is cast a single shadow of a doubt that he or she is innocent or the evidence does not precisely target him or her to the crime.
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gatorfan
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:37 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 5):
Seriously though, we execute more innocent people than any developed nation on earth, both in absolute numbers and by percentages.

How about China?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
Is the police and the state attorneys office legally obliged to look for evidence that exonerates a suspect or are they happy once they found enough evidence against the suspect to have a case?

The burden is on the state to prove the crime. They need not look for exculpatory evidence but are legally obliged to share any such evidence they have with the defense attorney. Though on many occassions they have not done so. I recently heard an NPR piece on Harry Connick Jr.'s father who was the New Orleans District Attorney. His office was caught several times not sharing exculpatory evidence with the defense on many murder cases.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:38 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 16):
Executions are state-sponsored, premeditated murder and that's an end of it. Paint it with as much self-righteous outrage at criminals as you like, but the fact remains that an execution is the planned and cold-blooded killing of a human.

Well don't kill anybody and you have nothing to worry about.
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aloges
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:47 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 17):
So basically, you're ok with murder, as long as the government isn't involved.

   Bullshit, and you know it. Murder is wrong, full stop, and it doesn't matter who commits the crime.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 25):
Well don't kill anybody and you have nothing to worry about.

Really? I'll just refer you to the lists of murdered innocent inmates again.

Apart from that, institutionalising the primordial lust for revenge in the form of the death penalty is a savage thing to do, unworthy of any civilised society.
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PanHAM
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:53 pm

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 24):
They need not look for exculpatory evidence but are legally obliged to share any such evidence they have with the defense attorney. Though on many occassions they have not done so. I

Which, at the end of the day means that the defendant has to prove that he is innocent whereas in most European countries the state has to prove that the defendant is guilty.

The police as arm of the state attorney office here is legally obliged to search for all evidence, pro and contra.

A person in the US that cannot afford expensive defense lawyers and private detectives is fully at the mercy of a jury of laymen who may come to the verdict on the base of liking your face or not. I do prefer the judgement of someone who has studied law and successfully passed the 2 state examns which enables him/her to become a judge..

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 24):
His office was caught several times not sharing exculpatory evidence with the defense on many murder cases.

which is, IMHO, a crime and must be punished.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 25):
Well don't kill anybody and you have nothing to worry about.

wrong conclusion, as we are discussing the potential error factor, that in the US justice system innocent people (that are those who have not killed anybody) people might get, and actually have been executed.
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iakobos
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:54 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 25):
Well don't kill anybody and you have nothing to worry about.

According to your National Justice Institute, between 5 and 10% of convicts, behind bars and some on death row, are actually innocent, that makes it somewhere between 100 and 200,000 persons that would strongly disagree with you.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:07 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 26):
Murder is wrong, full stop, and it doesn't matter who commits the crime

As long as they get to live the rest of their life unlike the person they killed.

Quoting aloges (Reply 26):
Apart from that, institutionalising the primordial lust for revenge in the form of the death penalty is a savage thing to do, unworthy of any civilised society.

Again don't kill anybody! It's simple. If you rob someone don't shoot them. If you rape someone don't strangle them. I don't see the problem here.
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aloges
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:30 pm

As you were saying:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 8):
An eye for an eye

...and soon the world will be blind.

I get it. You think that vengeance is the same as justice. I on the other hand am happy that my country has gone past that stage.
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babybus
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:36 pm

It's 2011 and capital punishment, for me, is something that belongs to primitive societies.

I tend to go along the lines of our scandic brothers and think there must be a way to re-civilize wrong-doers.

In a moral society criminals would ask for punishment. They don't but maybe it's because we don't have many morals around these days.
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Aaron747
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:48 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 8):
Yet in countries like Singapore where you get the death penalty for much less and harsher penalties for other crimes their crime rates are quite low

Crime rates are lower in this part of the world due to cultural differences. In many Asian societies, obligation to family is the first priority in one's life, and this includes taking any serious criminal actions that may shame the family name in perpetuity.
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NIKV69
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:01 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 32):
Crime rates are lower in this part of the world due to cultural differences. In many Asian societies, obligation to family is the first priority in one's life, and this includes taking any serious criminal actions that may shame the family name in perpetuity.

Yep I am sure this would have nothing to do with it.

Under the Penal Code,[10] the commission of the following offences may result in the death penalty:

Waging or attempting to wage war or abetting the waging of war against the Government*
Offences against the President’s person (in other words, treason)
Mutiny
Piracy that endangers life
Perjury that results in the execution of an innocent person
Murder
Abetting the suicide of a person under the age of 18 or an "insane" person
Attempted murder by a prisoner serving a life sentence
Kidnapping or abducting in order to murder
Robbery committed by five or more people that results in the death of a person
Drug trafficking
Unlawful discharge of firearms (firearms are heavily restricted in the city)
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aloges
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:31 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
Yep I am sure this would have nothing to do with it.

Great... comparing one city-state with an entire nation as huge as the US will of course always provide meaningful data.   

Here's a list that should delight all the fans of capital punishment. Maybe you'll find some inspiration.
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PanHAM
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:03 pm

That list is incomplete, they left out PLANKING, i.e. being forced to jump off a plank on the side of a ship at high sea.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
Perjury that results in the execution of an innocent person
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
Unlawful discharge of firearms (firearms are heavily restricted in the city)

These 2 items should become law in the US, namely in Texas
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vikkyvik
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:02 pm

To sum up my view very quckly: I'm generally against any form of punishment that cannot be undone, or at least commuted.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 7):
Looking at the US crime number it's indeed not a deterrent. But in my opinion it is more about revenge than justice.

  

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 2):
Its funny how so many people are opposed to the death penalty and think the death of a convicted murderer is a tragedy. Yet the deaths and suffering of countless victims is only an easily-ignored statistic.

  

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 4):

No-one who opposes the death penalty disregards the victims, it's just that there is more to justice than an 'eye for a eye' mentality.

  

Well, I won't say "no one", as there are always some crazy people everywhere. But certainly the vast majority of people opposed to the death penalty are not OK with murder.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 17):
So basically, you're ok with murder, as long as the government isn't involved.

 Wow!
  

That is probably the biggest stretch I've ever seen someone attempt about someone else's post.
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sw733
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:38 pm

I'm not going to share my thoughts on if the death penalty is right or wrong, but wow...reading a lot of those last statements is an absolutely fascinating psychological and sociological look into the minds. So many of them found peace and accepted their fate, and just wanted it done (and a few that held on to the plea of innocence to their last words, literally). Fascinating.
 
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:41 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):
These 2 items should become law in the US, namely in Texas

Lying or manufacturing evidence in a capital murder case usually is in most states. As for the gun thing I am not going to take the bait for a gun control hijack.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 37):
(and a few that held on to the plea of innocence to their last words, literally).

Yea especially the one who had his semen found in the victims mouth. Tells you something doesn't it?
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GST
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:15 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 29):

As long as they get to live the rest of their life unlike the person they killed.

I guess everyone gets to live for the rest of their life by definition...

Attempts at humour aside murder is a hideous act, and one that can almost never be forgiven. Sometimes however, years after the event meetings between murderer and victim's family have yielded forgiveness from those who matter most along with a sense of closure. This would be very difficult to achieve if the culprit had been executed imo). Nevertheless I do not think anything gives us the right to lower ourselves to the level of the killer. Allowing them the possibility to be rehabilitated and do something good with their lives is a far better penance. You don't need to be released to do good things either. The history of forensics & crime investigation is littered with major advances every so often, and each one has the potential to bring new light to cases that may have otherwise been considered cast iron yet condemned an innocent. It would be a real pain if that innocent had been executed a year early.

How do you offer any "just retribution" to the family of the wrongfully executed? There is a lot of talk about anti death penalty opinions ignoring the desires and needs of a victim's family, but the argument goes two ways.

Quoting Babybus (Reply 31):

In a moral society criminals would ask for punishment. They don't but maybe it's because we don't have many morals around these days.

And what makes you think we had more of it in the past? I do honestly believe we are iterating to a fairer system in most of the world and that by and large it is better now than it has ever been but morals seem to have little to do with it for better or for worse.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):
That list is incomplete, they left out PLANKING, i.e. being forced to jump off a plank on the side of a ship at high sea.

If you are referring to the stereotypical pirate's execution method, there is only one known instance of this ever happening before being popularised in fiction.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 36):

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 2):
Its funny how so many people are opposed to the death penalty and think the death of a convicted murderer is a tragedy. Yet the deaths and suffering of countless victims is only an easily-ignored statistic.

This view that we consider victims as statistics is simply sickening, we merely think that other punitive measures that can be undone or meaningfully apologised for if wrong would yield a better system.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:12 pm

I used to be for it, but then I realized that goes against Christianity (IMO.) Takes a lot to forgive the guilty, but it's the right thing to do
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Springbok747
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:12 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
I doubt it. There is clearly a massively inconsistent approach to the matter from state to state for a start.

Oh come on. You doubt those actual figures...which came from an anti death penalty website anyway. An average of 15,000 murders per year, so 35 years = 525,000 people killed, but the state has executed 1254 people..that is such a huge difference in statistics. Yes, I do agree that it is inconsistent and varies from state to state, but the fact remains that capital punishment is something that is not taken lightly and reserved for the worst.

Quoting aloges (Reply 16):
I take it you also doubt gravity?

Huh? What the hell does this have to do with anything? Fact is..a very very very small proportion of those on death row may be innocent, that's why they have appeals processes and checks in place.

Quoting aloges (Reply 26):
Bullshit, and you know it. Murder is wrong, full stop, and it doesn't matter who commits the crime.

So how do you suggest the person who committed the murder be punished then? I mean...they started the whole thing didn't they..by committing the murder in the first place.

Quoting GST (Reply 39):
This view that we consider victims as statistics is simply sickening

It may be..but those are the facts. Ask anyone on the street..they'll probably know more about the guy who was executed and have more sympathy for him than the victims of his crime.
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aloges
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:50 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 41):
Huh? What the hell does this have to do with anything? Fact is..a very very very small proportion of those on death row may be innocent, that's why they have appeals processes and checks in place.

You're qualifying your earlier statement:

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 12):
I highly doubt the US has actually executed an innocent person since resuming executions in 1976.

which brings it a lot closer to the truth. In fact I'd only argue about the amount of "very"s used.   A Google search for "wrongful execution" will yield many good arguments against the death penalty in general (i.e. in the US and elsewhere).

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 41):
So how do you suggest the person who committed the murder be punished then? I mean...they started the whole thing didn't they..by committing the murder in the first place.

A) How do we know that all convicted murderers started "the whole thing" in the first place? That's only true in a black-and-white world where there are no gang wars and the like, where the boundary between manslaughter and murder is razor-sharp and where no judge or jury can err.

B) As for punishment, most of the world agrees that the death penalty has no place in justice... and hence that it shouldn't be used by politicians to score points.

I like the system we have in Germany: a life sentence is 25 years, offenders can be paroled if their personalities change for the better and if they're no longer deemed a threat, particularly dangerous offenders can be kept in preventive custody (after serving their sentences) until they die.
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RussianJet
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:03 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 41):
You doubt those actual figures

I did not say that. It's just that raw stats can only tell you so much about how the death penalty is implemented across the states.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 41):
Fact is..a very very very small proportion of those on death row may be innocent, that's why they have appeals processes and checks in place.

And why are those 'checks' going to be totally infallable when the process has that got to that stage has potentially overlooked innocence? Seems like you just admitted that innocent people are at risk of being executed. If an innocent person can end up on death row, it's hardly a huge leap of logic to suggest some may go the whole way.
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aloges
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:07 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 43):
If an innocent person can end up on death row, it's hardly a huge leap of logic to suggest some may go the whole way.

Umm...

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
Our justice system is the best in the world.

This gentleman would disagree.  
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NIKV69
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:51 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 44):
This gentleman would disagree.

Well hey sometimes we need the man upstairs. Hows this for justsice?

http://www.kwtx.com/news/headlines/C...derly_Woman_123774939.html?ref=939
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Maverick623
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:53 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 10):
You're reacting emotionally

As is everyone else in this thread. Emotion is the very thing that drives any notion of "justice", whether that be saving an innocent person from the needle, or locking up the truly guilty.

The problem with the death penalty is that people use words like "justice" or "punishment" or "deterrent" as a justification, and they use those words (and the death penalty) FAR too often.

Quoting Babybus (Reply 31):

I tend to go along the lines of our scandic brothers and think there must be a way to re-civilize wrong-doers.

     

Trust me... some people are beyond helping, especially those who commit crimes as heinous as killing (or even trying to kill) someone.

Quoting aloges (Reply 42):

B) As for punishment, most of the world agrees

At one point, most of the world agreed that slavery was an acceptable practice. Popularity contests may rule the day (as they nominally should), but they should hardly be used as the sole justification for anything.


My opinion: keep the death penalty, and expand it's use to attempted murder convicts (after all, why should it matter if the person died or not?). Then use it ONLY when there is a video recording and DNA or other solid forensic evidence that the suspect committed the crime, or in the case of serial killers DNA alone could suffice (along with other forensic evidence, of course).

The death penalty should not be a deterrent, nor should it be punishment, but a way to keep the worst people from committing further heinous acts, even in prison. A logical solution to a problem with a lot of emotion behind it.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:25 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 37):
I'm not going to share my thoughts on if the death penalty is right or wrong, but wow...reading a lot of those last statements is an absolutely fascinating psychological and sociological look into the minds.

  

Forgot to mention that in my last post. It really is very interesting reading.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 41):

Quoting GST (Reply 39):
This view that we consider victims as statistics is simply sickening

It may be..but those are the facts. Ask anyone on the street..they'll probably know more about the guy who was executed and have more sympathy for him than the victims of his crime.

I strongly doubt that. Unless you just happen to know some terrible people. I've never met a single person who would have more sympathy for the murderer than his victims.

Note, though, that for some people, murder is murder, regardless of who is committing it (private individuals or the government).

More of the DEBATE may be about the murderer, as it's something within our (governmental) control, whereas the original murder is not.

Quoting aloges (Reply 42):
I like the system we have in Germany: a life sentence is 25 years, offenders can be paroled if their personalities change for the better and if they're no longer deemed a threat, particularly dangerous offenders can be kept in preventive custody (after serving their sentences) until they die.

In my opinion, a life sentence should be a life sentence, full stop, with or without parole.
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poz2brs
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:30 pm

The way I see this issue was perfectly summed up by a case I heard reported on the radio recently where a convicted multiple rapist in the US was handed a minimum sentence of over 900 years. Such sentences make the death penalty irrelevant, and the abundance of time should ensure that any innocent inmates have ample opportunity to make their appeal.

Execution belongs to a time when we humans were at the crossroads between savagery and civilisation, and has no place in a progressive society.
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Springbok747
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RE: Last Words On Texas Death Row

Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:42 pm

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