tristarenvy
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Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:43 pm

With the demise of Mercury, Saturn, Hummer, and my beloved Pontiac fresh on our minds, who do you think the next brand to "go" will be?

My vote: Chrysler.

Why? All they have to offer that's relavent is the 300. The 200...(choke)...is forgettable at best. The Town & Country can be bought cheaper as a Grand Caravan. I understand FIAT is no longer going to be offering these cars as "Chryslers" in Europe and rebranding them.

Plus, why is "RAM" now a brand, and just not a Dodge truck, anymore?

Dodge, Jeep and RAM can exist with what they have to offer. I think Chrysler is going the way of Plymouth with the lack of unique offerings.

Thoughts?
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
desertjets
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:57 pm

I think Chrysler will make it. We are still too early in the reorg/refresh process at Chrysler Group to really know what is going to happen. Any potential synergies that FIAT can achieve with Chrysler in the US and globally frankly aren't even close to being seen yet. I believe the willingness of FIAT to share platforms, drivetrains, tech across brands will help Chrysler be successful -- unlike the former German leadership.

Part of what plays in Chrysler's favor is that for all intents and purposes in the US/Canadian market all of Chrysler Group's product is now in a single sales channel.... which was being pushed before the DaimlerBenz merger. The only spanner in the works I feel is what FIAT will do w/ Alfa Romeo in the US. But if they follow what GM has done, Chrysler could be akin to Buick and Alfa akin to Cadillac.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
tristarenvy
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:25 pm

I happened to wander through a room where my daughters were watching some 'chick flick' one night..."Letters to Juliette" and stopped suddenly when they showed the car that was being used in the movie. It was a black third generation Lancia Delta. Needless to say... I watched the rest of the movie just to see the car.

One was shown at the 2010 Chicago car show, badged as a Chrysler.

That's what I hope happens with the brand, that it uses more of the European platforms and shares little w/Dodge.
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
Confuscius
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:32 pm

Ain't I a stinker?
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:04 pm

Quoting tristarenvy (Thread starter):
why is "RAM" now a brand, and just not a Dodge truck, anymore?

I believe the separation is a marketing attempt to reacquaint people with Dodge when they think of cars rather than just trucks.

Another reason (one more likely) may have to do with our favorite 4-letter (how appropriate) acronym:
C A F E.

While some of the heavier trucks are exempt from the having EPA ratings posted and CAFE figures; some of the lighter models indeed have, obviously, lower posted ratings and drag Dodge's overall mileage average down. Separating the larger trucks from the Dodge brand allows it to better avoid the CAFE red zone.

Quoting tristarenvy (Thread starter):
The 200...(choke)...is forgettable at best.

The 200's only a stop-gap/placeholder offering until a new platform is launched for the 2014(?) model year.

Quoting tristarenvy (Thread starter):
who do you think the next brand to "go" will be?

In all honesty, if things remain unaltered; the next US brand to go could very well be Lincoln.

Next year will be the first without the tried-and-true Town Car sales to limo and livery services. While the smaller MKZ and MKX have held their own (though the former falls short of its Cadillac CTS rival); Lincoln's larger MKS and MKT have not exactly won people over. Prior to its debut in 2009, many limo coach builders gave the MKS sedan a rousing thumbs down mainly due to its narrow cabin width and smallish (18 cubic feet) trunk. As a result, Lincoln will be marketing its MKT cross-over to limo coach builders once the last Town Car rolls out of production. Needless to say, the useless 3rd row (for a large CUV) seat on the MKT will be ditched on models used for limo conversions. Some coach builders may start eyeing the Navigator for limo conversions if the MKT doesn't cut it.

The biggest issue I personally have with the MKS and MKT (FWD and no V8 aside) is that despite being the same size as their Ford Taurus and Flex bretheren; BOTH of the Lincoln variants have less interior room and trunk/cargo space than their cheaper Ford counterparts. That liability alone coupled with the higher price tag (courtesy of the Lincoln brand) is an automatic deal-breaker IMHO.

While the Navigator SUV is heavy enough to avoid the EPA/CAFE radar and possibly survive without being drastically downsized; its sales popularity peaked years ago. Will those who missed out on getting a Town Car next year gravitate towards the bigger and more costly Navigator? While there will likely be some that will; others might balk at the lower gas mileage associated w/it and other big SUVs... especially if gas prices either remain high or skyrocket again. That said, the Navigator alone won't save Lincoln.

As it was stated in the recent Lincoln thread; Lincoln faced the possibility of extinction 2 to 3 times previously. The last time was when the 1961 Continental was being planned. IMHO, Lincoln needs to launch a large flagship sedan that will appeal to both the retail market AND the limo/livery market. The much discussed (at least on A.net) Continental show car of 2002(?) could be what the doctor ordered to re-create the 1961 breakthrough. Had it been launched into production right around the time the RWD Chrysler 300 came out; it would've stolen some of the 300's thunder.

If it's done right, the new Continental could save Lincoln; it's definitely at a cross-roads.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
desertjets
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:29 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4):
In all honesty, if things remain unaltered; the next US brand to go could very well be Lincoln.

As much as I hate to say it I am going to have to agree with you. Ultimately what Lincoln lacks is brand cachet. For better or worse a good chunk of people buying in the luxury segment are buying for the badge. Breaking into or returning to this segment is very difficult and requires the right mix of product and price -- see Lexus in 1990 w/ the LS 400 and the recent renaissance at Cadillac. The problem for Lincoln is that there isn't anything terribly wrong with their product, but then there is no compelling reason to buy a Lincoln either. I think the MKS is a rather attractive looking large sedan, but there isn't too much that sets it aside from the Taurus. In fact a Taurus Limited or SHO is a pretty damn nice car. And all that fancy tech in SYNC and MyFord Touch system is available in the lesser Taurus.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
tristarenvy
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:35 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4):

The 200's only a stop-gap/placeholder offering until a new platform is launched for the 2014(?) model year.

They could go and dig up the tools and dies for the AMC Hornet and it would be an improvement.
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:47 pm

Quoting tristarenvy (Reply 6):
They could go and dig up the tools and dies for the AMC Hornet and it would be an improvement.

Iacocca probably had all the tools and dies for anything AMC melted when Chrysler bought AMC in 1987.

I'm going to add a tabulation of current/existing brands (sorry Confusius) mentioned thus far.

Chrysler - 1

Lincoln - 2
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Flighty
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:51 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4):
In all honesty, if things remain unaltered; the next US brand to go could very well be Lincoln.

Lincoln has been incredibly mismanaged for over 15 years now. I could have done it much better. They did worse than amateurs would.... much worse.


Lincolns still have appeal. Ford has tons of money and power right now. If they want Lincoln to stay and prosper, it might happen out of sheer will. But they need a RWD Continental / Town Car and a Mark coupe. It's not optional; it is REQUIRED. Ford is going to persist in its Acura-esque letter names. Which is idiotic for both companies, which have rejected their own very positive brand images.

Acura's best car was the Legend. If they re-introduced the Legend it would sell. Ditto for Integra.

For Lincoln it is the same. It is like if Mercedes stopped building the S class, or BMW stopped building the 3 series. It is so stupid the people rsponsible should be killed. OK let me calm down now.
 
Confuscius
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:56 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 7):

AMC is out of business? When?

Here's the next to fail...

Ain't I a stinker?
 
desertjets
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:27 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
Ford has tons of money and power right now. If they want Lincoln to stay and prosper, it might happen out of sheer will. But they need a RWD Continental / Town Car and a Mark coupe. It's not optional; it is REQUIRED. Ford is going to persist in its Acura-esque letter names. Which is idiotic for both companies, which have rejected their own very positive brand images.

As much as I'd like to see a Continental flagship.... Lincoln needs to make sure its bread and butter models are in place first. While it has product in the right places (mid-sized sedan, large sedan, 2 and 3 row CUVs) the product isn't quite right and not differentiated enough from their Ford cousins. Though a Mark IX, perhaps based on the next gen Mustang platform, would be a worthy addition.

-The next gen Mondeo/Fusion should spawn a new Lincoln mid-sizer.... should be renamed the Zephyr
-The next gen Edge should spawn a replacement to the MKX that needs to be visually much more distinct than the Ford.
-The Explorer platform should be used as a base to a large 3-row CUV that will effectively take the place of the Navigator (heck call it the Navigator, that name still has some traction). I'd almost want to say that the Ecoboost 3.5 should be the sole engine choice.
-Next gen Mustang based Mark IX coupe.
-And something to replace the MKS to make it more distinct from the Taurus... but don't call it a Continental (or Versailles) that name must be reserved for a future flagship.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
Lincoln has been incredibly mismanaged for over 15 years now.

The Lincoln LS was fundamentally a move in the right direction that sort of dead ended. It was a solid rear drive platform that could have evolved in later generations. The general consensus was that it was under developed and didn't compare all that well to the BMW 5 series and Mercedes-Benz E-class. Jacques Nasser was far too busy buying up Jaguar, Aston-Martin, Land Rover and Volvo to really pay attention to the core brands. While it did yield some useful stuff it still seems like a distraction.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
tristarenvy
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:27 pm

HAHAHAHAHAH...

(whispering) Don't tell him Oldsmobile is gone, folks...he'll probably have a heart attack...


Had I been in command of Chrysler, instead of introducing the Eagle line, I'd have killed off all of Plymouth that was a clone of Dodge, which was pretty much everything. Give Plymouth the AMC/Renault cars, and made Plymouth the "captive import" brand that Eagle started out as.
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
BMI727
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:32 pm

Quoting tristarenvy (Thread starter):
The 200...(choke)...is forgettable at best.

If it is merely forgettable, that is a significant improvement on the Sebring.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4):
I believe the separation is a marketing attempt to reacquaint people with Dodge when they think of cars rather than just trucks

Now thinking of Dodge cars isn't wretch inducing the way it was before. Sure the Avenger and Caliber are subpar and their attempts to frame the Caravan as cool and manly seem like grasping at straws, but the Charger and Challenger are respectable if bloated cars.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4):
In all honesty, if things remain unaltered; the next US brand to go could very well be Lincoln.

That was my first response too. Rebadged Tauruses won't cut it.

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 3):

You think Wayne and Garth would be caught dead in a Chrysler 200?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
Lincolns still have appeal.

...to people old enough to remember when Lincoln was a nice car to have. That population is shrinking.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
Acura's best car was the Legend. If they re-introduced the Legend it would sell. Ditto for Integra.

It doesn't matter what it's called if the car has the goods. The Ford Five Hundred still sucked donkey nuts after they renamed it.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:07 pm

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 10):
-The next gen Mondeo/Fusion should spawn a new Lincoln mid-sizer.... should be renamed the Zephyr
Suddenly, it's 2006. 
Quoting DesertJets (Reply 10):
-The next gen Edge should spawn a replacement to the MKX that needs to be visually much more distinct than the Ford.

As you probably already know, both the Edge and MKX were revamped/restyled for 2011.

While I agree, in principle, that the Lincoln version should have distinct/different styling than its Ford counterpart; the last 2 efforts (MKS & MKT) compromised too much on interior room and cargo space to achieve that goal. If Lincoln's going to do such, they may have to do what they've done with their past full-size models (like the Town Car) for years; make them actually longer than their Ford siblings. The big Lincolns were ALWAYS larger/longer than the big Fords and Mercurys.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 10):
-The Explorer platform should be used as a base to a large 3-row CUV that will effectively take the place of the Navigator (heck call it the Navigator, that name still has some traction). I'd almost want to say that the Ecoboost 3.5 should be the sole engine choice.

You are aware that the new Explorer uses the same platform as the Ford Flex and Lincoln MKT aren't you? Because it sounds like you're essentially describing the MKT but restricting the engine choice. As I mentioned earlier, the MKT has probably the WORST 3rd row seating in its class. I sat in one at the Auto Show and my head was hitting the glass part of the rear hatch and I'm only 5'-7". I did not experience such when sitting in the Flex's 3rd row BTW. Redoing the MKT and renaming it the Aviator would be a better move.

Until Lincoln is serious about offering a large RWD V8 sedan again; I would keep the Navigator essentially as it is for now. It may attact more limo coachbuilders after the Town Car goes; it will be the only body-on-frame Lincoln left.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 10):
-Next gen Mustang based Mark IX coupe.

Interesting. Although the current S197 platform would be more fitting IMHO.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 10):
-And something to replace the MKS to make it more distinct from the Taurus... but don't call it a Continental (or Versailles) that name must be reserved for a future flagship.

   Let's see, maybe revive either the Premier name (last used on a Lincoln in 1960) or the more recent LS badge.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
desertjets
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:19 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 13):
You are aware that the new Explorer uses the same platform as the Ford Flex and Lincoln MKT aren't you? Because it sounds like you're essentially describing the MKT but restricting the engine choice. As I mentioned earlier, the MKT has probably the WORST 3rd row seating in its class. I sat in one at the Auto Show and my head was hitting the glass part of the rear hatch and I'm only 5'-7". I did not experience such when sitting in the Flex's 3rd row BTW. Redoing the MKT and renaming it the Aviator would be a better move.

Quite aware. The MKT is interesting looking and tries more to mimick a tall station wagon, which the Ford Flex does FAR FAR FAR better. An Explorer based CUV that biases towards the SUVish image vs. a tall wagon would work and the Navigator name is wholly appropriate. Nobody remembers the Explorer based rebadge anyways.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Flighty
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:07 pm

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 10):
While it has product in the right places (mid-sized sedan, large sedan, 2 and 3 row CUVs) the product isn't quite right and not differentiated enough from their Ford cousins. Though a Mark IX, perhaps based on the next gen Mustang platform, would be a worthy addition.

Yeah a Mark and other products that make sense for Lincoln's brand image. They could avoid this struggle for brand coherence if they would just go with the flow. Most Americans have ridden in a Lincoln before. We know what Lincoln is. It's the previous sharp-edged Town Car, Continental etc and the Mark. Plus the Navigator.

If Ford wants to make crossovers and SUVs I suggest they sell them as Fords. Lincoln is not flexible and those re-definitions don't scan with me anyway.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
...to people old enough to remember when Lincoln was a nice car

You bet. Better than young people who think Lincoln is a piece of dookie. Why not show them otherwise.







   
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:37 pm

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 14):
Nobody remembers the Explorer based rebadge anyways.

That's because it was launched several years AFTER the Mercury Mountaineer (which was sold in the same showroom) and was seldom advertised.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 10):
As much as I'd like to see a Continental flagship.... Lincoln needs to make sure its bread and butter models are in place first. While it has product in the right places (mid-sized sedan, large sedan, 2 and 3 row CUVs) the product isn't quite right and not differentiated enough from their Ford cousins.

I meant to chime on this yesterday. At present, one of Lincoln's biggest challenges is that many dealerships that once housed Lincolns and Mercurys have closed and consolidated with existing Ford dealers. While there were a handful of dealerships that sold all 3 brands under one roof (one dealer was in Millbury, MA, another in Chester, PA as 2 examples); the majority of Lincoln dealerships were usually separate from the Ford dealarships.

Now that Lincolns are moslty sold under the same roof as Fords; I don't think it is wise for them to have a clone of every Ford product out there.

In contrast, there are still separate Dodge and Chrysler dealerships as well as separate Chevy and Cadillac dealerships and even separate Toyota and Lexus dealerships. While there are Cadillac dealerships that sell Buicks as well; there's less of an overlap between products.

I've said it before and I will say it again; Lincoln's in for a rough ride ahead.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Superfly
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:51 pm

Lincoln will die August 31st, 2011 when the final Town Car rolls off the assembly line at the Saint Thomas, Ontario plant.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4):
In all honesty, if things remain unaltered; the next US brand to go could very well be Lincoln.

I agree. Once the Town Car is gone, the Lincoln brand is gone. The other alphabet soup vehicles are a joke.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
...to people old enough to remember when Lincoln was a nice car to have. That population is shrinking.

I'm only 38 years old so that mean there is a LOT of people that remember when Lincoln was great.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Confuscius
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:15 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):
Lincoln will die August 31st, 2011 when the final Town Car rolls off the assembly line at the Saint Thomas, Ontario plant.

Perfect timing because the world will end in 2012 anyway.
Ain't I a stinker?
 
Confuscius
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:47 pm

Quoting tristarenvy (Reply 11):
(whispering) Don't tell him Oldsmobile is gone

Oh no, I need to replace my Custom Cruiser station wagon! Oh well, with high gas prices I guess I'll have to buy a Saturn.
Ain't I a stinker?
 
desertjets
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:55 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 16):
Now that Lincolns are moslty sold under the same roof as Fords; I don't think it is wise for them to have a clone of every Ford product out there.

I think part of the problem is that Lincoln really is no longer a luxury brand in the same light that Cadillac has been able to re-become. This is compounded by the fact that the current Fords, especially in the higher trim levels, are pretty nice. Again what distinguishes a Taurus Limited or a Taurus SHO from the Lincoln cousin. Probably not enough, as much as I find the MKS to be a handsome car. Like you said Toyota created the separate dealer network just for Lexus to distinguish the product from the more plebeian Toyotas. Though it greatly helped Toyota that a lot of what become Lexus was sourced from products that were up to that point almost exclusively JDM only.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):
I agree. Once the Town Car is gone, the Lincoln brand is gone. The other alphabet soup vehicles are a joke.

I think the Town Car is unique and I suspect there is still a market for a large more traditional luxury car. Which is why I think Cadillac's strategy with the XTS (even though people will piss and moan it is FWD/AWD) is sound. As to whether or not the brand equity or whatever will be diluted when half of units sold will be black and driving people to the airport is another question. I don't think the current lineup is a joke, there is little reason to buy one vs. a similar Ford or any of the competition.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Flighty
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:04 pm

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 20):
I don't think the current lineup is a joke, there is little reason to buy one vs. a similar Ford or any of the competition.

I don't consider them Lincolns. Real Lincolns are essentially out of production. To create one, you'd need to buy a vintage one and update it. Which is actually sort of a good idea.
 
BMI727
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:29 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):
there is a LOT of people that remember when Lincoln was great.

I bet a lot of them ponder the greatness of Lincoln from the driver's seat of their Lexus.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 20):
This is compounded by the fact that the current Fords, especially in the higher trim levels, are pretty nice.

So are Toyotas, Hondas, etc. That isn't the problem.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Superfly
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:39 pm

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 18):
Perfect timing because the world will end in 2012 anyway.

Darn.  
Quoting DesertJets (Reply 20):
half of units sold will be black

Nothing wrong with that. Although most traditional full-sized domestic sedans are hard to find in black on the showroom. Most are white, champagne or light silver/blue.   
Bring back the Concorde
 
comorin
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:07 am

I think Lincoln will do really well. Reasons:

1. Great ad campaign targeted to boomers - covers of 'Space Oddity' by Cat Power and 'Major Tom-Coming Home ' by Shiny Toy Guns are brilliant and speak to us old gits.
2. CEO happens to be Alan Mulally. Case closed.

Links to music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i64HJrmLxtU&feature=player_detailpage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WS_alU8X2Q&feature=player_detailpage
 
EddieDude
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:13 am

I don't think Chrysler is the next to go. The new 300 has won again good reviews from the press and I am sure it will sell decently. The 200 is a mere placeholder until something much more decent and competitive arrives... expect to see a lot of European styling influence. As many have said, it is likely the next-gen 200 (or whatever name it receives will be a twin of a new Lancia midsize sedan -or even a rebadged version of it). It is not unreasonable to speculate that Chrysler will also get a replacement for its midsize convertible and possibly a soft-SUV. If things go well for FIAT-Chrysler, the Chrysler brand may also get a halo car in the medium to long-term in the form of a grand touring coupe or something.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 10):
-The next gen Mondeo/Fusion should spawn a new Lincoln mid-sizer.... should be renamed the Zephyr

The next-gen Mondeo/Fusion will indeed spawn a new Lincoln mid-sizer... I believe several websites have been running the story and even renderings of what the car will/should look like. With respect to the name, I dunno... Ford seems focused on giving Lincolns alpha-numeric designations. Anyway, should they decide to give it a proper name (I would like that), they should do something other than Zephyr which was, at best, mediocre.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 10):
-And something to replace the MKS to make it more distinct from the Taurus..

For starters, make it RWD. This should not be quite difficult. The next generation Mustang, Aussie Ford Falcon and MKS successor could all share a new RWD platform.
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ltbewr
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:59 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):
Lincoln will die August 31st, 2011 when the final Town Car rolls off the assembly line at the Saint Thomas, Ontario plant.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4):In all honesty, if things remain unaltered; the next US brand to go could very well be Lincoln.
I agree. Once the Town Car is gone, the Lincoln brand is gone. The other alphabet soup vehicles are a joke.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):...to people old enough to remember when Lincoln was a nice car to have. That population is shrinking.
I'm only 38 years old so that mean there is a LOT of people that remember when Lincoln was great.Bring back the Concorde

Sunday, I went by one of the biggest Lincoln dealerships in the Eastern USA (Wayne Lincoln, Wayne, NJ) and they have at least 100 Town Cars parked on their storage lot across from the showroom, stockpiling for the end of production. They have a specialtiy part of the dealership that sells Town Cars for the 'black car' trade in the NY City-Northern NJ area. Without the Town Car and Lexus, Acura, a huge BMW, M-B and Caddy dealers only a few miles from them, they are going to hurt without a RWD car. They lost the Mercury line, they also sell Suziki cars but I suspect they are not going to be enough with a Hyundai dealership across from them. As others suggested Lincoln must have a RWD car, probably based on the Aussie Falcon, but the CAFE numbers probably would limit them from producing enough.

As to the history of Lincoln, they had some really bad years at times, including in the 1958-1960 prior their classic Contential in 1961 who's design theme lasted for generations. Some of their 1970's models, including the terrible 'Versilles' almost put them under, but somehow they survived. But with many higher end mainline brands (including some Fords) and compeition, they may not last unless they make some car that will be acceptable and needed by professionals. SUV's are too difficult to get in and out as well as too large and fuel guzzling of for limo use, Maybe the new RWD model could be a hybrid to get the CAFE numbers up and still deliver the needed power.
 
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:04 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4):
In all honesty, if things remain unaltered; the next US brand to go could very well be Lincoln.

Lincoln is definitely the next brand that die in the U.S. marketplace - Suzuki is probably the next import brand to disappear from the U.S. - dealerships are very few and very far apart, especially outside of major West Coast metro areas.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:41 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 27):
Suzuki is probably the next import brand to disappear from the U.S. - dealerships are very few and very far apart, especially outside of major West Coast metro areas.

Careful! Confucius will want a new Isuzu, or Sterling after he hears that!
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:03 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 26):
including the terrible 'Versilles'


The Versailles was hardly "terrible". It was a great car that unfortunatley didn't sale well. It was the first production line car to use clear-coat paint. It came with for more standard features than the Cadillac Seville. Even though the Sevelle enjoyed marketplace success, it was junk compared to the Versailles.
The Versailles came out the box with just about every luxury feature and latest technology of that time as standard equipment. The Seville you had to check off pages and pages on the options list to equal that of the Versailles and it was still short of the Versailles in terms of options.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 26):
almost put them under, but somehow they survived.


Lincoln was making money hand over fist with the Mark V and even the Contiental Town Cars were selling well. They were in no risk of going under at that time.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:11 am

Quoting tristarenvy (Reply 28):

Isuzu and Sterling too?! No way!!!

Ain't I a stinker?
 
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:30 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 24):
Great ad campaign targeted to boomers

Which mean absolutely nothing if the vehicles don't sell. Case and point, not even Jill Wagner could save Mercury.

Quoting comorin (Reply 24):
CEO happens to be Alan Mulally.

Personal take, he seems to be more focused (no pun intended) on Ford rather than Lincoln (or Mercury).

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 26):
one of the biggest Lincoln dealerships

Is that dealership a stand-alone Lincoln dealership or does it sell other new brands as well?

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 26):
many higher end mainline brands (including some Fords) and compeition, they may not last unless they make some car that will be acceptable and needed by professionals.

As I stated earlier, in anticipation of the Mercury brand being phased out (though the shutdown was still done rather abruptly IMHO); most Lincoln-Mercury dealerships closed and the remains consolidated with existing Ford dealerships. That move, while pleasing to the bean-counters, has Lincoln directly competing with Ford literally under the same roof. The old Lincoln-Mercury dealership model made sense because while the Lincolns and Mercurys shared the same platform and components among models; in most instances, there was enough separation and distinction between the 2 separate makes.

Examples:
1. A fully-loaded Grand Marquis LSE was still priced well below the larger base Town Car (Executive).

2. The Marks IV/V were always larger and priced higher than the Cougar/XR-7. Side bar: the '72-'76 T-Birds and Mark IVs was probably the first time there was actually a Ford product that was the exact same size and similarly equipped as a Lincoln.

3. The Mark VI 2-door was longer in length and was more equipped in base trim than a fully-loaded Grand Marquis coupe. Side bar: the Continental Mark VI 4-door actually competed internally for sales against Lincoln's own Continental/Town Car.

4. A 'base-model' Mark VII/VIII was still more loaded and priced higher than a fully-loaded Cougar/XR-7.

5. The mid-size Continental was always larger and priced higher than the Cougar/Marquis ('82-'87 RWD versions) and Sable ('88-'02 FWD versions).

6. The LS sedan and Navigator had no Mercury counterpart.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
The Versailles came out the box with just about every luxury feature and latest technology of that time as standard equipment.

My guess is that even a fully-loaded Mercury Monarch did not have all the goodies that the Versailles had. One has to wonder if a similar approach was done with respect to the Zephyr/MKZ vs. the Milan? That's the only way I could see those 2 models co-existing under one salesroom.

With the current Ford-Lincoln dealership set-up today and with many of the larger Fords (Taurus, Flex and Expedition) offering equipment packages/trim levels that place them on equal footing w/the Lincolns (MKS, MKT and Navigator) in content, price and size; unless someone either likes the looks of the Lincolns better (the FWD D3/D4-based Fords are roomier and look better IMHO) and/or a dealer offers a better discount on the Lincolns over the Fords, it may be harder for dealers to sell the Lincolns under the same roof.

Personally, it would have been better to just downsize the L-M dealerships to just Lincoln dealerships rather than throw everything under one roof.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
Lincoln was making money hand over fist with the Mark V and even the Contiental Town Cars were selling well. They were in no risk of going under at that time.

IIRC, Chrysler was at a greater risk of going under at the time.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 27):
Suzuki is probably the next import brand to disappear from the U.S. - dealerships are very few and very far apart, especially outside of major West Coast metro areas.

No big loss; they weren't that big to begin with. They can still sell their motorcycles.

[Edited 2011-06-23 07:00:52]
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:41 pm

Quoting tristarenvy (Reply 11):
Don't tell him Oldsmobile is gone

Which is a crying shame. The best car I ever owned was an Oldsmobile. Never needed maintenance beyond the usual annual stuff. Really good gas mileage too. If it wasn't for the idiot that wrote it off, I'd still be driving it 10 years later with no major repairs.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:26 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 31):
My guess is that even a fully-loaded Mercury Monarch did not have all the goodies that the Versailles had.

True.
People love to rag on the Versailles for being a dressed up Granada/Monarch while the Seville was a dressed up Nova.
The Granada was a fancier car than the Nova to being with.
The Versailles features not available on the dressed up Granada & Monarch was leather seats, thick cut-pile carpeting, clear-coat paint, driver side lower back lumbar support, external thermometer, remote control electric garage door opener build in to visor, owners engraved initials for driver & passenger doors, magazine pouch on seat backs, more warning lights and gauges.
The Cadillac Seville didn't even offer quadraphonic 8track, only stereo.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:00 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
People love to rag on the Versailles for being a dressed up Granada/Monarch while the Seville was a dressed up Nova.

My guess is that the reasoning behind that was while the Seville sported a different look and sheetmetal (which would be later applied to the bigger Cadillacs) than the Nova and was a tad longer too; the Versailles did not try to hide the Granada/Monarch styling cues at all.

Inside, the Seville used the same basic instrument panel as the bigger Caddies whereas the Versailles' panel could be conceivably interchanged with one from a Granada/Monarch.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:30 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 34):
the Versailles did not try to hide the Granada/Monarch styling cues at all.

Pretty much. I once saw a Granada/Monarch with a Versailles front clip on it. It wasn't "pretty" but it worked.

The only big difference came after it was on the market for a few years. The roofline and rear doors were altered. It must have been done "on the cheap" as I'd think a car that was going to be redone wouldn't get that major a redo. The "improved" car looked pretty good, and did hide it's origins pretty well.

And it's bustleback replacement wasn't too hard on the eyes either. But I am also a fan of the "slant-back Cadillac's" too!
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:24 pm

How to save Lincoln. Take the Aussie Falcon platform, lengthen the wheelbase (perhaps just resurrect the defunct Fairlane platform) provide a V-8 powerplant with flex-fuel and displacement on demand capabilities (cylinder deactivation - for CAFE reasons), with rear wheel drive, and style it so it looks JUST LIKE THIS:

2002 Lincoln Continental Concept


Suddenly, Lincoln is viable in the North American marketplace again. Lincoln, please just DO IT!!!   

[Edited 2011-06-23 16:25:30]
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
ltbewr
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:21 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 31):
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 26):one of the biggest Lincoln dealerships
Is that dealership a stand-alone Lincoln dealership or does it sell other new brands as well?

In my post, I note that they also sell Suzuki brand cars, have done so for a number of years. They have been a Lincoln-Mercury stand-alone dealer for almost 40 years at that location. There were several stand alone Ford dealers in their 'market area' as well which meant they couldn't have Ford too.. They are one of the survivors of L-M dealerships, 3 others in Northern NJ shut down 7 or so years ago, with a few more in the dealership purges of 2008-2009 and in one case in No. NJ, a L-M (now Lincoln only) franchise was merged into an existing Ford dealer.



Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 36):
How to save Lincoln. Take the Aussie Falcon platform, lengthen the wheelbase (perhaps just resurrect the defunct Fairlane platform) provide a V-8 power plant with flex-fuel and displacement on demand capabilities (cylinder deactivation - for CAFE reasons), with rear wheel drive, and style it so it looks JUST LIKE THIS

THAT is the idea. It takes the classic 'continental' edge lines, would take some cues from the successful Chrysler 300, keeping a distinctive look vs. the Euro and Japanese brands, and with RWD, would mean a car that can be used for the limo services.
 
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:48 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 36):
JUST LIKE THIS:

No, that would be too obvious and too successful.      

Lincoln really must have a paradigm shift to show it is as "cool" as BMW and Honda. Because import buyers are just dying to get a Lincoln.    

After all, young active import buyers are Lincoln's target market.      

This is all true because I read a branding book once in business school or whatever      

/sarcasm

[Edited 2011-06-23 18:49:41]
 
prosa
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:38 am

What about Mitsubishi? As far as I know their U.S. sales aren't particularly good.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
wn700driver
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:26 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 36):

2002 Lincoln Continental Concept

Offer that in some kind of Charcoal color and Olive drab metallic & I'll take two.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:12 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 31):
1. A fully-loaded Grand Marquis LSE was still priced well below the larger base Town Car (Executive).

Ford, like GM & Chrysler, spent decades delivering a set of upgrading brands. the objective was to get the consumer early with the base brand (Ford, Chevy & Plymouth) and then move them up in brands as they become more affluent. That mid brand position by Mercury was a good position for many years. At least GM still has Buick between the Chevy & Caddy.
 
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:41 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 41):
Ford, like GM & Chrysler, spent decades delivering a set of upgrading brands. the objective was to get the consumer early with the base brand (Ford, Chevy & Plymouth) and then move them up in brands as they become more affluent. That mid brand position by Mercury was a good position for many years. At least GM still has Buick between the Chevy & Caddy.

While that may have been a sound strategy in 1958 it pretty quickly eroded through the 60s and by the 1970s you'd be hard pressed to tell the differences among the mainstream offerings of the big 3. What in 1970 (for example) would distinguish a Chevrolet Impala from an Oldsmobile 88 or a Plymouth Gran Fury from a Chrysler Newport? At least through marketing the big 3 were able to preserve that but it certainly imploded by the late 80s.... how else could a brand like Oldsmobile go from being a consistently high volume/best selling marque to being extinct 15 years later?



Other brands on the deathwatch -- SAAB which looks like may finally be done, Suzuki (at least in the US) may finally pull the plug, and Mitsubishi (at least in the US) for the lack of decent product and the aftereffects of selling sub-prime auto loans instead of cars in the early half of the 00s (remember the 0, 0, 0 event they had).

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 37):
THAT is the idea. It takes the classic 'continental' edge lines, would take some cues from the successful Chrysler 300, keeping a distinctive look vs. the Euro and Japanese brands, and with RWD, would mean a car that can be used for the limo services.

Problem is that the Aussie Falcon platform is somewhat ancient and its future is in doubt as both Holden's and Ford's traditional RWD sedan sales have faltered considerably against the Asian competition in the past decade. But the styling should be distinctively American. Large part of Cadillac's successful resurgence comes from the fact that it developed a very clear styling language that references some of the very best of Cadillac design from the past.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:33 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 41):
Ford, like GM & Chrysler, spent decades delivering a set of upgrading brands. the objective was to get the consumer early with the base brand (Ford, Chevy & Plymouth) and then move them up in brands as they become more affluent. That mid brand position by Mercury was a good position for many years. At least GM still has Buick between the Chevy & Caddy.

I am very well aware of that. However, it is worth noting that prior to the downsizing that took place in the late 70s/early 80s.; despite sharing the same platform, the standard full-sizes for each brand was NOT exactly the same size.

Prior to 1979, most full-size Mercurys were always larger than its full-size Ford sister and the big Lincolns were always bigger than both brands.

Prior to 1977, full-size Pontiacs, Oldmobiles and Buicks were always larger than full-size Chevys and the large Cadillacs were larger than their C-body Buick and Olds bretheren.

Prior to 1978, full-size Dodges were always slight larger than the full-size Plymouths and prior to 1979, full-size Chryslers were always larger than both Plymouth and Dodge.

In a nutshell, when one opted for the pricier brand; they got a bit more vehicle. When cars downsized to the point where they were all the same size and started offering similar features as their corporate cousins; the attraction of buying the pricier brand diminished.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 37):
In my post, I note that they also sell Suzuki brand cars

I am well aware of dealerships selling completely different makes under one roof; I was strictly referring to dealerships that essentially sell the same exact car under 2 different nameplates at one location. In your example, Suzukis share no components w/any Lincolns nor do they offer models in the same size/category class.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 37):
one case in No. NJ, a L-M (now Lincoln only) franchise was merged into an existing Ford dealer.

IMHO, that scenario is likely the majority and could bite Lincoln on the rump later.

Quoting PROSA (Reply 39):
What about Mitsubishi?

They're not a U.S. brand.

Quoting PROSA (Reply 39):
As far as I know their U.S. sales aren't particularly good.

Their sales are likely better than Suzuki's. I do see a fair amount of Mitisubishi Outlanders around.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 40):
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 36):

2002 Lincoln Continental Concept

Offer that in some kind of Charcoal color and Olive drab metallic & I'll take two.

Give me one in dark red/maroon.   
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:57 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 36):
Take the Aussie Falcon platform, lengthen the wheelbase (perhaps just resurrect the defunct Fairlane platform) provide a V-8 powerplant with flex-fuel and displacement on demand capabilities (cylinder deactivation - for CAFE reasons), with rear wheel drive

Interesting idea but the Falcon platform (the Fairlane sat on the LWB Ute/Wagon platform) was never engineered for right hand drive, there was govt export funding to do it but Ford Australia dropped the plans. The next Falcon is going to be FWD/AWD, Ford has indicated this already.
 
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:10 pm

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 42):
What in 1970 (for example) would distinguish a Chevrolet Impala from an Oldsmobile 88

Prior to 1977, the Delta 88's wheelbase was longer than that of an Impala/Caprice.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 42):
Plymouth Gran Fury from a Chrysler Newport

You must be joking. The only time a Plymouth Gran Fury even remotely resembled or was the same size as a Chrysler Newport was with the R-body platfrom that ran from 1979-1981 (though the Plymouth version didn't arrive until 1980).

Up through 1977, the Newport was always larger than the Fury/Gran Fury.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 42):
how else could a brand like Oldsmobile go from being a consistently high volume/best selling marque to being extinct 15 years later?

By killing off successful cars and nameplates (Cutlass Supreme, Delta 88, Ninety Eight) and replacing them with models bearing more obscure names. To a degree, Buick made similar mistakes roughly a decade later. The only reason why the Buick brand survived and Pontiac didn't was because its success in the Chinese market (in which most if not all models bear familiar names like Park Avenue, Riviera and Regal).
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:54 am

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 42):
Other brands on the deathwatch -- SAAB which looks like may finally be done

It can't pay its workers, which is definitely not a good sign.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
WESTERN737800
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:12 am

Quoting tristarenvy (Thread starter):
With the demise of Mercury, Saturn, Hummer, and my beloved Pontiac fresh on our minds, who do you think the next brand to "go" will be?

Hopefully none of them. In my oponion we've lost too many brands already. When you think of all the people who have been put out of work its depressing. I'm still depressed with the loss of Pontiac.
Bring back Western Airlines!
 
BMI727
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:19 am

Quoting WESTERN737800 (Reply 47):
Hopefully none of them. In my oponion we've lost too many brands already.

Let's be honest, is anyone really going to miss Saturn?
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RE: Who's The Next U.S. Auto Brand To Bite It?

Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:39 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):
Offer that in some kind of Charcoal color and Olive drab metallic & I'll take two.

Give me one in dark red/maroon.

Give me one in black with black leather seats.
Bring back the Concorde

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