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Dreadnought
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Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:33 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13883331

Excellent news.

[Edited 2011-06-23 05:55:48]
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RE: Doutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:38 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Excellent news.

  
Glad to see some sanity being restored in an E.U. nation.
Geert Wilders has my support and I'm glad he was acquitted. It's a shame that he had to stand trail in the first place.
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:11 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Excellent news.

Glad to see some sanity being restored in an E.U. nation.

     

Although I don't support his political views I am very happy with this. Freedom of expression should prevail everything else, even decency and religion.
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:06 pm

Excellent news.
I might find his views a bit strong at times, but he certainly should be allowed to say what a lot of people are thinking.
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:16 pm

A victory for individual liberty!

And, bear in mind, the fight ahead will be long and grueling. What he said was correct. People need to start defending freedom of speech and liberty and fight to defend the West.
 
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:12 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 2):
Although I don't support his political views I am very happy with this.

Agreed. Further to this, he should not have been banned from the UK.

Quoting garpd (Reply 3):
what a lot of people are thinking.

Enlighten me. What are a lot of people thinking?

Quoting slider (Reply 4):
People need to start defending freedom of speech and liberty and fight to defend the West.

From who? Zee Germans? The Reds?
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travelavnut
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:24 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 5):

Quoting garpd (Reply 3):
what a lot of people are thinking.

Enlighten me. What are a lot of people thinking?

A lot of Dutch people fear Islam. Also there is talk of Sharia law being used in disputes between immigrants, a very bad development if you ask me. If I move to Morocco I wil adhere to their laws, I will not try to bring my own set of laws.

Now I live in one of the neighbourhoods in Amsterdam (and the Netherlands for that matter) with the highest concentration of Moroccan muslims and I partially agree. A lot of these people despise Western values, the parents don't talk Dutch (or English) and a lot of them teach their children our morals are depicable and we are in fact pigs. (and that's quite the insult coming from a muslim).

Also crime numbers clearly show that Moroccan youth (which are almost all Muslim) account for a large chunck of crime in the large cities. A fact that I can personally confirm. This is all in Wilders favor of course.

Wilders claims Islam in general has one goal and one goal only: world domination.

I think a few Muslims think that way, most of them just wanna live out their lives. But I do think the small radical part is really dangerous for our society (one just has to look at the carnage in NYC, Spain, UK, etc).

The fact that Wilders is heavily protected makes his own point IMHO. And to answer your question; yes he is saying what a lot of people are thinking concerning Islam. And of course he should be able to voice these thoughts.
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travelavnut
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:25 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 5):
Quoting travelavnut (Reply 2):
Although I don't support his political views I am very happy with this.

Agreed. Further to this, he should not have been banned from the UK.

            that was indeed a disgrace
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:55 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):

Wilders claims Islam in general has one goal and one goal only: world domination.

I think a few Muslims think that way, most of them just wanna live out their lives. But I do think the small radical part is really dangerous for our society (one just has to look at the carnage in NYC, Spain, UK, etc).

And therein lies the problem. For many years, we have been told that radical islam only represents a tiny minority of Muslims. But in recent polls in the UK, some 30-40% of muslims say that they agree with the idea of violent jihad, and would like to see Sharia law imposed in their country. Ask the same question in Pakistan and other muslim countries those percentages go even higher. Sorry, but anyone who supports those beliefs IS a radical, and a danger to civilized society.

They may be minorities, but there is nothing "tiny" about it. Wilders' point is that this is not some radical offshoot of Islam that obeys rules and laws that are not in the Quran, but that the Quran actually explicitly orders such radicalism. I don't pretend to be an authority, but from what I have read of the Quran and from my understanding of the order in which it was written and the Islamic law of Abrogation, I think Wilders is probably right.
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:10 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
A lot of Dutch people fear Islam.

The fear is generally fueled by ignorance.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
Also there is talk of Sharia law being used in disputes between immigrants, a very bad development if you ask me.

In the UK, it is not unusual for muslim, jewish, sikh, hindu or any other community to settle civil disputes via religious/cultural code. This is permitted within the realms of English law. I have little issue with this.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
If I move to Morocco I wil adhere to their laws, I will not try to bring my own set of laws.

Absolutely. Law of the land takes priority. However, if the mechanisms exist (as above) and are limited to civil not criminal cases then there should be no issue.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
A lot of these people despise Western values, the parents don't talk Dutch (or English) and a lot of them teach their children our morals are depicable and we are in fact pigs. (and that's quite the insult coming from a muslim).

Also crime numbers clearly show that Moroccan youth (which are almost all Muslim) account for a large chunck of crime in the large cities. A fact that I can personally confirm.

This is an issue for most of Western Europe. Most countries/communities have done a piss-poor job of integration. Many cities will have ghettos that are composed solely of immigrants. They'll have their own schools, shops, GPs, hospitals etc. A piece of "home" in a foreign land. Of course this just feeds the cycle.

In this regard, our American friends do seem to have a leg up on us. Their melting pot works. Ours doesn't

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
I think a few Muslims think that way, most of them just wanna live out their lives. But I do think the small radical part is really dangerous for our society (one just has to look at the carnage in NYC, Spain, UK, etc).

Communities and politicians need to do more to encourage mixing and integration. Following the race riots in the UK, a whole new grass roots approach was needed. Baby steps at first such as inter-city football leagues (sports fantastic for breaking down barriers). This was soon taken to the next step with new school academies that were more mixed. Of course, for any lasting effect, this has to be sustained for many years before you see the results.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
Wilders claims Islam in general has one goal and one goal only: world domination.

He's right. We're after your women!  
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:23 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Excellent news.



It is good news , now if he can keep his head attached and not get his throat slashed he should be fine !.

Interesting article ... I agree with him and I have felt the same way when in Muslim countries. Its always someone else's fault ... just like libs.!

http://www.geertwilders.nl/index.php...tion=com_content&task=view&id=1702
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:08 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 9):
In this regard, our American friends do seem to have a leg up on us. Their melting pot works. Ours doesn't

Absolutely!! A lot of Dutch, including myself, have loud opinions about certain aspects of American society but if there's one thing we should take a lesson from it is the way Americans handle immigrants.

You can keep your culture, believes, whatever. But learn English, respect the law and make sure you get an income.

In the Netherlands during the 60s, 70s and 80s we made government brochures in every imaginable language, people didn't have to learn the language and few did. Now we have 3rd generations immigrants that at home live in their own little culture. Parents don't speak Dutch, so parent-teacher meetings are almost impossible and if the police visits the son usually translates. The son is often the problem so you can guess how that pans out.

It's our own fault and Wilders almost seems like a logical result of the discontent about the our own failed immigration policies. Like I said, I don't share a lot of his views, but he should have complete freedom to express them. Unless they directly call for violence or hate.

[Edited 2011-06-23 10:16:13]
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travelavnut
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:15 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 9):
Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
Also there is talk of Sharia law being used in disputes between immigrants, a very bad development if you ask me.

In the UK, it is not unusual for muslim, jewish, sikh, hindu or any other community to settle civil disputes via religious/cultural code. This is permitted within the realms of English law. I have little issue with this.
Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 9):
Absolutely. Law of the land takes priority. However, if the mechanisms exist (as above) and are limited to civil not criminal cases then there should be no issue.

Well if you can settle a neighbour dispute without going to court and not in violation of the law, than I guess it isn't a big deal. But I was thinking more about cases concerning marriage, divorce and custody. Although I'm no law or sharia expert I had the impression that these would also fall under sharia (or jewish, etc)

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 9):
Wilders claims Islam in general has one goal and one goal only: world domination.

He's right. We're after your women!  

Damn, I knew it!!  
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:04 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 11):
You can keep your culture, believes, whatever. But learn English, respect the law and make sure you get an income.

Actually no, nobody forces a newcomer to learn English in the US. You can get every document in most languages and if you can get a job where they don't require you to speak English, you are set.

As for the American melting pot, I see the same thing I see in Europe regarding different ethnic groups. Each have their own area where they live (not sure if ghetto is appropriate) for the most part, but to think that all racial groups walk hand in hand and celebrate their diversity is just silly. Some do and some don't, just like in Europe.
 
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:27 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
Quoting travelavnut (Reply 11):
You can keep your culture, believes, whatever. But learn English, respect the law and make sure you get an income.

Actually no, nobody forces a newcomer to learn English in the US. You can get every document in most languages and if you can get a job where they don't require you to speak English, you are set.

If that's the case I stand corrected.
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:40 pm

I think the "salad bowl" metaphor is much closer to the truth than the melting pot. It says that all the groups/ingredients are together and influence one another, but retain their individual characteristics and identities. That stands for integration rather than assimilation.

Anyway, this verdict isn't as much of a victory for freedom of speech as it is one for Geert Wilders and his ideology. It would be great to discuss the religious issues he thrives on, but when he starts off by comparing the holy book of Islam to "Mein Kampf", any opportunity for that is lost. He's just an attention-seeking loudmouth who's discovered an issue that will gain him popularity:

Quoting garpd (Reply 3):
I might find his views a bit strong at times, but he certainly should be allowed to say what a lot of people are thinking.
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:02 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 9):
This is an issue for most of Western Europe. Most countries/communities have done a piss-poor job of integration. Many cities will have ghettos that are composed solely of immigrants. They'll have their own schools, shops, GPs, hospitals etc. A piece of "home" in a foreign land. Of course this just feeds the cycle.

In this regard, our American friends do seem to have a leg up on us. Their melting pot works. Ours doesn't


A hundred (100) years ago you would have been correct. But the United States now has the same problems with immigrants as the Europeans do. They claim to come in search of a better life. Then as soon as they get here try to make their new home just like the one that just left.

.
 
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:13 pm

Even though I don't support much of Mr Wilders' thoughts, I'm happy he won the case!

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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:13 pm

I hope the US and the EU can come together and work to solve OUR immigrant problems. There are many similarities, so why not put our heads together? Better than it has been lately, the US criticizing the EU's take and vice versa. Funny how similar our goals are but how much we still bicker
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:37 pm

I am sure if Geert Wilders made anti-Semitic or anti-Christian instead of anti-Muslim comments most conservatives would sing a different song and denounce him as a hate monger.

I am glad Wilders got acquitted, any free society should not incarcerate a person for being out spoken on his or her beliefs.

Geert Wilders is no different than many of the Muslim radicals that he denounces and those who threaten Israel's existence, he incites violence and hate like they do and spreads misinformation and out right lies like they do. A rotten Apple by any other name is a rotten apple. You can't fight intolerance with intolerance and win the battle of ideas in the long run and that goes for all hate for the sake of hate mongers everywhere. If you want to win the war of ideas you have to be bigger than they are and not play to their level.

[Edited 2011-06-23 12:50:56]
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:38 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
I hope the US and the EU can come together and work to solve OUR immigrant problems. There are many similarities, so why not put our heads together? Better than it has been lately, the US criticizing the EU's take and vice versa. Funny how similar our goals are but how much we still bicker


The solution is simple "enforce the laws that are all ready on the books"!

If you are in the country illegally you should be sent back. It works in the US in works in the EU.

Every country should (MUST) be allowed to establish its own boarders and control who enters.
 
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:24 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 20):

In theory, yes, but you see how it really is. My main point was cooperation, how many threads bashing the US's immigration have we seen, now the EU is having similar problems. Just like the Dems and Reps should work together more, I think the US and EU should instead of this strange hatred we seem to be forming for each other. Kumbaya, I know lol
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:56 am

I find it interesting that in Europe, that they have a number of laws restricting speech that cannot be in the USA. The only real rule in the USA is if you encourage or threaten acts of violence at to a particular group of people due to their gender preference, faith, ethnicity, skin color, legal status in the USA or against the President or top government officials. We have by some measures, 1000 or more 'hate groups', and millions with strong views as to certain others, but that is tolerated to some extent (as often noted here, like with the Phelps family Westboro Baptist Church group protesting at funerals of military persons).

Of course in Europe, they have good reason to temper speech, especially that supporting Nazism, but at times, they do things that from a USA view find foolish, wrong or even hypocritical. In France, they want to restrict or ban the wearing of the 'burka' for Muslim women or of a Christian cross on a necklace if work in a government office. In Germany, especially in Bavaria, they have Christian crosses in public schoolrooms but also have tried to keep out Scientology as a faith group.

The best thing to do with hate speechers like Wilders and the like is to ignore them, get the media to ignore them or only show them in the worst way.
 
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:55 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):

Things do run differently across the Atlantic. But, the US also has laws that Europeans find weird. What I always found weird was hate crimes and how one-sided they are. If the perpetrator is white and the victim part of a minority, it is automatically a hate crime, if its the other way around it is not. Does this mean that it is made out of "love" if it is the other way around or that members of minorities are never taken over by racism/prejudice against other groups?

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):
In France, they want to restrict or ban the wearing of the 'burka' for Muslim women or of a Christian cross on a necklace if work in a government office.

This whole thing started because some new members of our societies started being offended by everything having to do with the local established religions. Due to equality, everything then had to go so as not to give the impression that the state favors a specific religion. The burka is a completely different thing because it involves security and the need in western society to be able to identify someone by any physical characteristic.
 
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:09 am

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 19):

I am glad Wilders got acquitted, any free society should not incarcerate a person for being out spoken on his or her beliefs.

  

I believe in free speech, and am in that sense "glad" that the principle is upheld. Even jackasses like Wilders need to be protected under this law.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 19):
I am sure if Geert Wilders made anti-Semitic or anti-Christian instead of anti-Muslim comments most conservatives would sing a different song and denounce him as a hate monger.

Exactly. Of course this is true. That's the level on which it bothers me.

Quoting aloges (Reply 15):
He's just an attention-seeking loudmouth who's discovered an issue that will gain him popularity:

  
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:01 am

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 11):
Absolutely!! A lot of Dutch, including myself, have loud opinions about certain aspects of American society but if there's one thing we should take a lesson from it is the way Americans handle immigrants.

Out of curiosity, what aspects of American culture do you feel so strongly about?
 
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:26 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):
I find it interesting that in Europe, that they have a number of laws restricting speech that cannot be in the USA. The only real rule in the USA is if you encourage or threaten acts of violence at to a particular group of people due to their gender preference, faith, ethnicity, skin color, legal status in the USA or against the President or top government officials. We have by some measures, 1000 or more 'hate groups', and millions with strong views as to certain others, but that is tolerated to some extent (as often noted here, like with the Phelps family Westboro Baptist Church group protesting at funerals of military persons).

I must say I think the way freedom of speech is done in the US is really good. Even idiots like the WBC should be able to picket and voice their (sometimes demented) believes. And than you have this counter organisations like the Patriot Guard Riders that oppose the WBC just by having a presence at the picket site.

A lot of emotions, but from my perspective not a lot of violence.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 25):
Out of curiosity, what aspects of American culture do you feel so strongly about?

Things like the lack of universal health care and when I'm in the US I'm always baffled by the media, but that's for another thread. And strongly is perhaps the wrong expression, it's more a "what on earth are they doing over there?" sentiment. Although I am very sure those sentiments go both ways. Like the quote below
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):
Of course in Europe, they have good reason to temper speech, especially that supporting Nazism, but at times, they do things that from a USA view find foolish, wrong or even hypocritical.

In the Netherlands it is still illegal to denounce the holocaust. I had a discussion with my dad about this. He supports this, because from his perspective it is still a very touchy subject. But I think that although denouncing the Holocaust shows a serious lack of inteligence, it is still a mere opinion. Ergo, you should be able to voice it.

But the acquitting of Wilders is a good step in a good direction.
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:54 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Excellent news.

Yes it is..

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
The fact that Wilders is heavily protected makes his own point IMHO. And to answer your question; yes he is saying what a lot of people are thinking concerning Islam. And of course he should be able to voice these thoughts.

Good post

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 9):
Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
A lot of Dutch people fear Islam.

The fear is generally fueled by ignorance

No it is fueled by fact.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 16):
A hundred (100) years ago you would have been correct. But the United States now has the same problems with immigrants as the Europeans do. They claim to come in search of a better life. Then as soon as they get here try to make their new home just like the one that just left.

Yes we are being turned into a third world nation.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
EU can come together and work to solve OUR immigrant problems

We do not have a immigrant problem...WE have an illegal alien problem.
 
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:23 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 9):
Most countries/communities have done a piss-poor job of integration.

I must agree! First they let them in and give them all the jobs none of the locals want to have, and then complain that they are not properly integrated.

The solution would be to only allow immigrants to stay if they have properly completed an integration process. And that includes not just learning a language and finding a job, but also learning the values of the country you are wanting to reside in. Failing this, there really is no point in opening your doors to everyone as it only leads to crime, hatred, disputes, ghettos, and ignorance.
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:13 pm

From who? Zee Germans? The Reds?[/quote]

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 9):
This is an issue for most of Western Europe. Most countries/communities have done a piss-poor job of integration. Many cities will have ghettos that are composed solely of immigrants.

I completely disagree. One can lead a horse to the water but it must drink itself.

Most European countries offer all what it needs to integrate into the society but they cannot force people to accept all what is offered. No one is forced to live in a certain area, if there are "ghettos" than possibly because some ethnics want to stay with their peers where they have all the amenities they have at home and don't even need to learn the local language. Don't blame the guest countries of that.

Language is a major factor of integration and that is possibly the answer why integration works a bit better in the UK than elsewhere. English is already the lingua france. However, when immigrants don't take the offers of free language courses, we cannot force them.

There are immigrants who perfecty blend into their new environment and others who don't. Wilders has identified a certain religion that keeps some of their followers from integrating and he certainly has made a point. Highlighting facts is not racism and has to be tolerated in an open society, like it or not. Denying the fact that 6 million jews have been murdered is not covered by freedom of speech, hence any comparisons are not legitimate.

There was no other possible outcome of the trial which indeed never should have taken place.
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AGM100
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:03 pm

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 19):
am sure if Geert Wilders made anti-Semitic or anti-Christian instead of anti-Muslim comments most conservatives would sing a different song and denounce him as a hate monger.



Maybe so ... but we don't want him sent to jail for it. Their is plenty of voices who Sympathize with Muslims anyway ... they play into the victimization of the poor Muslims by Capitalists and imperialist . They are feeding the snake in the bed ... and one day they will realize it.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
No one is forced to live in a certain area, if there are "ghettos" than possibly because some ethnics want to stay with their peers where they have all the amenities they have at home and don't even need to learn the local language. Don't blame the guest countries of that.



Especially in socialist countries ... it is pure insanity to keep adding to the roles of non educated non productive people. The ghettos fill ... the youth angers, and the fires start..
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:16 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 30):
Especially in socialist countries

Name a socialist country in the European Union.
 
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:30 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
Denying the fact that 6 million jews have been murdered is not covered by freedom of speech, hence any comparisons are not legitimate

Just to be clear; I wasn't comparing denouncing the holocaust with the statements of Wilders, I was illustrating the difference in freedom of speech laws between the US and the Netherlands.
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AGM100
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:31 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 31):
Name a socialist country in the European Union



Well call it what you want ... States with high social spending for the welfare of all. It works until the tax payers stop carrying rocks up the hill.
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:33 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
I completely disagree. One can lead a horse to the water but it must drink itself.

It's an unfortunate metaphor because immigrants from southern Europe have often been abused like workhorses, but I'll continue with it for the moment: the water that migrants are led to, if they're led at all, often has much in common wit these bodies of water. It is of course a challenge to adapt to a foreign country. But you can only succeed if, to introduce another metaphor, the welcome party doesn't have its arms crossed.

Latent xenophobia, a sense of superiority and a complete and utter lack of intercultural intelligence are sadly very common in this country of mine - and I'm sure, alas, many others as well. So migrants end up unwelcome in their chosen homes and scorned in their ancestral ones, for their apparent lack of success.

Integration can only work if there is openness to the newcomers. It's also a slow, often immeasurable and always individual process which is why it's such a popular target for demagogues and phrasemongers. Everyone knows or knows about an immigrant who isn't fully integrated, so surely this must be due to his lack of will to integrate?

Finally, I have yet to find a way to melt the many individual cultures of Germany down into one dull and boring hunk of customs and traditions that you can put in a leaflet and give to immigrants as an essay they must learn by heart. Fortunately, cultural diversity is very much alive and kicking and only increased by immigration - for better and, since all things have a flip side, for worse as well.
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ozglobal
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:14 pm

First of all, I want to say that people are people first, whatever their religion is and nothing can change the intrinsic equality of human dignity.

That said, when it comes to problems of Islam, we are often told that it is not Islam as a system that is the problem but radicalization.

What is this 'radicalization?? The etymology of the word 'radical' relates to going to the 'root' of the matter. If you ask me to name a 'radical christian' I would think of Mother Teresa. To radicalize, in the neutral sense of the word should mean to 'intensify' and to take to the roots of the values of the system. If you become 'radically' Islamic, why should that mean you become violent against non-adherents, unless that were an intrinsic part of the value system?

Christianity has over time and in the first place, produced the notion of equality of human dignity and the freedom of conscience that stems from this status. Islam has not yet adopted this doctrine, but attaches no specific rights to conscience nor therefore non-adherents of Islam.

It is hard to ignore the fact that radicalization of adherents of Islam leads to something we universally condemn (I hope): violence against innocent non-Muslims.

Therefore, the 'non-radical' adherents of the system that is Islam must develop a theology supporting the absolute dignity the human person and the freedom of conscience and vigorously defend this in the face of Islamic terrorism and militancy. Otherwise we have no choice to conclude that Islam as a system has intrinsically in its core the seeds of violence against non-adherents and, accordingly, an agenda of global domination. Please prove me wrong !
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PanHAM
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:42 am

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 32):

Just to be clear; I wasn't comparing denouncing the holocaust with the statements of Wilders, I was illustrating the difference in freedom of speech laws between the US and the Netherlands.

Of course, I did not even reflect on your posting, just a general remark.

Quoting aloges (Reply 34):
It's an unfortunate metaphor because immigrants from southern Europe have often been abused like workhorses

Good morning Gutmensch. Germany is a free country and people get paid for their work. Unfortunately, some illegal immigrants - we have them as ´most countries in Europe have and in Asia and America - are abused by their fellow countrymen who bring them into the countries for work and abuse them by cheating on their wages. That is the reality.

I don't know if you have lived in anotrher country, I have. It is up to the person to integrate, no one else. We do not force anyone to anything here, if you want to form a separate society in a society, the state can do little against it. These are facts and there is mno xenophobia when facts are laid on the table.

We have immigrants who perfectly blend into the society and we have others who don't. It is also a fact that most of those who do not blend into a society worship a certain religion. This is a a phenomena which exists not only in Germany but the world over. We had a conference yesterday again with the Minister for the Interior in Germany and Muslim leaders. There is an article in FAZ today which was online already yesterday. Title "on a tea with the Imam." A reader made a very good comment in the online forum saying "Integration would be ""on a beer with the Imam"" ".

Reality is also that those muslims who care a bit less about their religion are very much integrated, highly educated and valid members of the society. Unfortunately we lose some of them because they see better opportunities in Turkey these days. Germany is an open country, the problem we have with immigration is that we have too many uneducated peasants. There are countries avoiding that problem by setting the hiurdles high. Australia, Canada and the USA require skills or money or both to allow peoople to immigrate. We just accept people to come here and go into the welfare system. Integration is hardly possible that way.
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aloges
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:45 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 36):
Good morning Gutmensch.

Cute.    You don't expect me to continue reading after that, do you?

Just read Günter Wallraff's "Ganz unten" for a glimpse into what I mean.
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PanHAM
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:20 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 37):
Just read Günter Wallraff's "Ganz unten" for a glimpse into what I mean.

Wallraff is a left wing extremist and a racist. I don't read books written by such people. Read what I had to say to your contribution. We don't help immigrants by letting them cocoon into their own narrow minded world within our free and open society. A kick in the *ss to participate is much better, much more in their favour.

Letting them do without speaking out is wrong and does not help immigrants who refuse our society at all.
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aloges
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:57 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
Wallraff is a left wing extremist and a racist.

It is of course necessary to take his works with a grain of salt - as with any and all political books - but your description of him says more about yourself than about him.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
Read what I had to say to your contribution.

Sorry, but there's no point if your main arguments are name-calling and generalisations and your solution to immigration problems is this:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
A kick in the *ss to participate is much better, much more in their favour.

I learn more about integration every time I go to work or just outside than I could learn from reading your rants.

[Edited 2011-06-25 12:03:03]
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PanHAM
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:39 am

So, Aloges, how can we then force immigrants who do not speak our language and have no intention to learn it, to inbtegrate? Would be interesting to hear from you, because you haven't come up with a solution, just the typical Gutmenschen phrasiology. How can it be a generalisation when I state a fact that we have too many of these who are unwilling to integrate? It is not an isolated German case, this is a world wide phenomena.

I welcome anyone to come to my country to stay and make a living, the basic requirements, language and the acceptance of our constitution and the laws should be not too much asking, wouldn't you agree?
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baroque
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:56 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
But in recent polls in the UK, some 30-40% of muslims say that they agree with the idea of violent jihad, and would like to see Sharia law imposed in their country. Ask the same question in Pakistan and other muslim countries those percentages go even higher. Sorry, but anyone who supports those beliefs IS a radical, and a danger to civilized society.

Try this one:
http://womenagainstshariah.blogspot....ows-egyptians-favor-democracy.html

Last time I looked Egypt was a dictatorship striving to become a democracy, so some of the bits you might want to quote could come from the dictatorship past rather than the present. Bet you will quote this lot selectively:
Look at the results below for adultery, apostasy, and theft. But "Egyptians reject radical Islamists." So... are these the "moderates?"

Democracy
59%: Say democracy is preferable to any other form of government.
22%: Say a non-democratic system can be preferable in certain circumstances
Islam in politics
95%: Say it's good that Islam plays a large role in politics
85%: Say Islam's influence on politics is good
48%: Say Islam currently play a large role in Egyptian politics
Islamist extremism
80%: Think suicide bombings are never or rarely justified.
20%: Think suicide bombings are sometimes or often justified
70%: Are concerned or very concerned about Islamist extremism in the world
61%: Are concerned or very concerned about Islamist extremism in the Egypt
Traditional Muslim practices
54%: Believe men and women should be segregated in the workplace
82%: Believe adulterers should be stoned
Just like Muhammad.
84%: Believe apostates from Islam should face the death penalty
Just like Muhammad.
77%: Believe thieves should be flogged or have their hands cut off


Then you might want to read the Mission statement:
MISSION STATEMENT
It is our position that shariah law imposes second class status on women and is incompatible with the standards of liberal Western societies and the basic principles of human rights that include equality under the law and the protection of individual freedoms. The shariah code mandates the complete authority of men over women, including the control of their movement, education, marital options, clothing, bodies, place of residence and all other aspects of their existence. Further, it calls for the beating, punishment, and murder of women who don’t comply with shariah requirements.


Or you could try talking to a Muslim woman about Sharia. And last time I checked, even in Muslim countries women are about 50% of the population. It is China and India where the % goes down!

From a report on a survey in Indonesia that supposedly supported Sharia law being introduced:
"A lot of people think the idea is very good, but when you start talking of every day implications, the number dropped," said Ira Soekirman of Roy Morgan Research, an Australian company which conducted the survey.

But the headline reads "Indonesia backs Sharia law - which it does not.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...a-backs-sharia-law-poll-shows.html
 
aloges
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:11 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 40):
So, Aloges, how can we then force immigrants who do not speak our language and have no intention to learn it, to inbtegrate? Would be interesting to hear from you, because you haven't come up with a solution, just the typical Gutmenschen phrasiology.

I would be willing to discuss this with you if you hadn't resorted to name-calling ("Gutmensch", "left-wing extremist" and "racist") and platitudes ("I welcome anyone (except: ...)") whilst showing a complete and utter lack of understanding for the actual issue ("kick in the ass", "force immigrants ... to integrate").

Your main argument seems to be that there is one German culture that immigrants must be forced to adapt to. That is not the case, not even close:

Quoting aloges (Reply 34):
Finally, I have yet to find a way to melt the many individual cultures of Germany down into one dull and boring hunk of customs and traditions that you can put in a leaflet and give to immigrants as an essay they must learn by heart.

I'm originally from a northern Bundesland and live in the south. There's definitely a cultural difference, and there are many more alike just inside the borders of Germany. The assumption that there is one national "Leitkultur" is fallacious.

Quoting aloges (Reply 34):
Fortunately, cultural diversity is very much alive and kicking and only increased by immigration - for better and, since all things have a flip side, for worse as well.

Maybe you can finally realise what I meant: cultural diversity among Germans is alive and kicking, immigration only adds to it.

As for the rest, like I said, I can't be arsed.
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PanHAM
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:41 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 42):
Your main argument seems to be that there is one German culture that immigrants must be forced to adapt to. That is not the case, not even close:

It is amazing how you guys always try to put someone who does not parrot the mainstream arguments into a certain corner. Did I say anything about German culture in this sentence:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 40):
I welcome anyone to come to my country to stay and make a living, the basic requirements, language and the acceptance of our constitution and the laws should be not too much asking, wouldn't you agree?

Is that too much asking? Certainly not. Now, instead of discussing the unwillingness if some immigrants to accept the basics I have asked for you are trying to educate me about the cultural diversity of Germans. I have news for you, I was born near Cologne and my parents moved to northern Germany when my dad rejoined the Navy in 58. Tell me about cultural diversity in Germany, I have been in all corners here and enjoy exactly that and when you read some of my contributions here you will find that I am a vivid supporter of the European idea and I want Europe to stay like it is with all that cultural diversity.

However that requires a liberal mind which you obviously do not seem to have. Acceptance of someones difference must be on a reciprocal basis. Europeans do that since a long time and Europe is growing together and the regiuons are keeping their identity at the same time.

But this will not be maintained if we keep tolerating the intolerant. We cannot afford to have situations like in the banlieus of France or certain areas in Berlin where the police will not even go in group of hunderds because these areas are dominated by 2 Lebanese family clans who collect not only welfare but run organized crime as well in a alwless enclave of the city. As long as the Berlin mayor allows that to happen he sends the wrong message to other immigrants and that is racism as well. Racism is not a one way street either as you may think or believe. A society cannot function if there are people who despise the society but still take all the benefits that society offers them.

If that does not go into the heads of the Gutmenschen the part of the society that will suffer most from such wrong thinking are those who come her and want to be a functioning part of our society.
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aloges
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:00 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 43):
It is amazing how you guys always try to put someone who does not parrot the mainstream arguments into a certain corner.

Define "mainstream". Anyway, I must have painted myself into a corner with this:

Quoting aloges (Reply 34):
Fortunately, cultural diversity is very much alive and kicking and only increased by immigration - for better and, since all things have a flip side, for worse as well.

By the way, if I'm supposedly a "Gutmensch" and your views contrast with mine 100%, does that not make you a bad person?   

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 43):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 40):
I welcome anyone to come to my country to stay and make a living, the basic requirements, language and the acceptance of our constitution and the laws should be not too much asking, wouldn't you agree?

Is that too much asking?

Oh, the hypocrisy. The immigrants whose families are now regarded as problem cases are mainly the ones brought to the country as guest workers. Back in those days, nobody could have cared less whether or not they spoke German... in fact mingling with them was cause for disdain from other Germans and they were supposed to do the hard and dirty work for which no German language skills or integration were required. They were workforce, not people, expected to return home after their work had been done or as soon as a German wanted their job. Treat people like dogs and sooner or later they will bark and bite.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 43):
However that requires a liberal mind which you obviously do not seem to have.

So you're a psychoanalyst now?   

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 43):
Acceptance of someones difference must be on a reciprocal basis.

...and yet you preach assimilation instead of integration. As I was saying:

Quoting aloges (Reply 34):
Integration can only work if there is openness to the newcomers. It's also a slow, often immeasurable and always individual process which is why it's such a popular target for demagogues and phrasemongers. Everyone knows or knows about an immigrant who isn't fully integrated, so surely this must be due to his lack of will to integrate?

If an immigrant is expected to learn the language, culture and idiosyncracies of the country he's moved to while working to support himself and of course leaving all of his family at home, he's guaranteed to face difficulty. A little support and openness, surely, aren't too much to ask for?

[Edited 2011-06-26 08:20:00]
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PanHAM
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:37 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 44):
By the way, if I'm supposedly a "Gutmensch" and your views contrast with mine 100%, does that not make you a bad person?

Not at all. good intentions are the opposite of good, as you may have heard. That makes usually losers out of Gutmenschen, because their good intentions always fail in the face of reality.



Quoting aloges (Reply 44):
Define "mainstream"

the common current throught of the majority. I prefer to use my brains and come to my own conclusion.

Quoting aloges (Reply 44):
..and yet you preach assimilation instead of integration. As I was saying:

again, exactly the opposite of what I said. Assimilation is something that may exist in YOUR brain, not in mine. Accepting the laws of a country where you want to settle is one of the basic requirements. That has nothing to do with assimilation. But you are a good scholar of Mr. Wallraff and his predecessors, Sudel Ede Schnitzler and that guy the other dictatorship on German soil. They were and are masters of twisting other peoples brains. And, by the way, I am not a preacher, I just voice my opinion which you seem to be unable to. All I get from you in response are stereotypes and all you can is twisting my

Quoting aloges (Reply 44):
If an immigrant is expected to learn the language, culture and idiosyncracies of the country he's moved to while working to support himself and of course leaving all of his family at home, he's guaranteed to face difficulty. A little support and openness, surely, aren't too much to ask for?

You see, that is a typical example of wrong thinking.

First of all, the support and openess is given, I continue to say that during this thread and you continue to deny without giving substance.

Next, you seem to believe in slavery when you say "to a country he's moved to". I do not know anyone in Germany who is moving immigrants against their will to Germany, it would be a crime to do that. fact however is, that illegal immigrants want to come here and pay their families savings to the criminals who bring them to Europe.

Fact is also that I talked about immigrants, wihtout making that distinction between legal and illegal. A legal immigrant is certainly not "moved here" but came here on his on will to make a better living. I certainly agree that it is difficult to learn a language for older people, but can you explain why kids in the third or fourth generation are unable to speak flawless German? It is easy for children to learn 2 or 3 languagaes in their first 7 to 8 years. Who is keeping them?

But there's another bad light that is shed on you by making such staements. In your world, people seem to be zombies who carried around by others against their real will.

Get real, please. People have their own minds, except may be the followers of Guenther Walllraff

Quoting aloges (Reply 44):
So you're a psychoanalyst now?

Do you need one?
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aloges
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:05 pm

Oh, PanHAM... try as I might, I fear it'll prove impossible to have a conversation on this issue with you that goes beyond stereotypes, platitudes and name-calling. Seriously, Karl-Eduard von Schnitz? Is that finally as low as you will go?

'tis a shame, but such is life. Maybe you'll experience what being a migrant is like at some point, in which case I hope you'll receive a warmer welcome than you say you are willing to give. Good luck!

[Edited 2011-06-26 10:07:49]
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Aesma
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:29 pm

Apparently the trial was really to show the accusers that what he said was legal, which everybody else knew from the start. We had a similar show trial here a few years ago about the famous satirical cartoons of Mohammed.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):
In France, they want to restrict or ban the wearing of the 'burka' for Muslim women or of a Christian cross on a necklace if work in a government office.

That's law and has been in effect for some time. The law is actually about the burqa/niqab everywhere. Public workers have always been prohibited from showing obvious religious signs (a small cross necklace is OK), since at least 1905.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):
keep out Scientology as a faith group.

Here, it's considered as a cult (rightly so, in my opinion).
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:37 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 35):
Christianity has over time and in the first place, produced the notion of equality of human dignity and the freedom of conscience that stems from this status. Islam has not yet adopted this doctrine, but attaches no specific rights to conscience nor therefore non-adherents of Islam.

It is hard to ignore the fact that radicalization of adherents of Islam leads to something we universally condemn (I hope): violence against innocent non-Muslims.

Therefore, the 'non-radical' adherents of the system that is Islam must develop a theology supporting the absolute dignity the human person and the freedom of conscience and vigorously defend this in the face of Islamic terrorism and militancy. Otherwise we have no choice to conclude that Islam as a system has intrinsically in its core the seeds of violence against non-adherents and, accordingly, an agenda of global domination. Please prove me wrong !

I think this is a rather well thought out statement here. And I don't disagree. Be prepared to be flamed for taking that position, however, as I have often here.

I'll jump off from your point above that Islam needs to develop a theology supporting human rights, etc, by saying (as I've said time and time again) that I don't believe Islam is capable of a reformation (in the context as we know it historically as with Christianity, for instance).

And the reasons for this are quite simple, yet I never get any intellectual feedback to the contrary on this position. Islam is and always has been about subjugation. If there is a "reformation" it would mean that the words of their prophet are null and void, and since it's quite clear via Muhammed that the words in the Quran are INFALLIBLE, changing that is, in a very real sense, changing the very core of their entire belief system. Muhammed IS the perfect person--he is the archetype to follow. And based on the idea of abrogation, where newer statements/phrases override the earlier ones in their holy scripts, the claim of being a religion of peace are merely specious buzzwords. Scholars have made it quite clear that, if the facts occurred as documented, Islam went from being a religion of peace to, well, NOT so much as of 632 AD.

Again—and I’ve said this repeatedly here—we (ie: the West) look at Islam as a religion. It is not merely that per se, in fact Islam makes no distinction among political, religious, doctrinal or social. We see them through our lens at our own peril. Islam cannot reform in its current state because it is not CAPABLE of reformation--it would change the very foundational underpinnings of it as a doctrine.

And if it were, one could make the argument that it's merely another rope-a-dope tactic, taqiyya, deliberate deception.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted

Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:57 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 46):
'tis a shame, but such is life. Maybe you'll experience what being a migrant is like at some point, in which case I hope you'll receive a warmer welcome than you say you are willing to give. Good luck!

You still did not get my point. You are really stubborn. I've been around in the world, lived overseas and I never ever had a problem anywhere, so don't worry. It is "immigrant" by the way. Migrants are people who settle for a short time and continue their way after that. This mis-use of the language is part of the problem you guys are causing. Look above,m don't parrot mainstream paroles, use your own brains.

Again, my point is that immigrants should have a knowledge of the language, the younger they are the better it should be and they shouöld accept and observe the laws. The constitution stands above everything, not a religion or anything else and that has to be acknowledged as well. Besides that, anyone is welcome. In my humble opinion, these minimum requirements apply for Germans residing in other countries as well.
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