NIKV69
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Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:03 am

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/u-conside...hicle-fuel-standard-185157901.html

Timing would work with Gore flaming Obama on his weakness on Global warming. This is a campaign move IMO but I mean this is so not in the ball park. 56.2 mpg average? I mean thats not that long a time to have all Priuses out there is it?

I mean I want to see a lot less SUVs out there but this is a bit extreme.
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Newark727
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:26 am

2025 is a long way off. I think it's a worthy engineering goal, but it'll probably be revised downward by either this or future administrations anyway because people will start kvetching.
 
Superfly
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:29 am

Another idiotic from Obama. Just another reason to vote him out of office.
The high gas prices should make Obama happy since it's closer to what people pay for gas in Europe. Afterall, his goal is to make America like Europe.
Wait a minute, there is an election coming up next year, better tap in to those emergency oil reserves.   
Bring back the Concorde
 
Newark727
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:35 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Another idiotic from Obama. Just another reason to vote him out of office.
The high gas prices should make Obama happy since it's closer to what people pay for gas in Europe. Afterall, his goal is to make America like Europe.
Wait a minute, there is an election coming up next year, better tap in to those emergency oil reserves.   

Non-sequitur about Europe aside, I don't see a huge drawback to the general public from a higher fuel-economy mandate, provided the requisite economies of scale can be achieved for gas-saving technology to make it cheap. Which I think it can. There are so many features on an automobile that we take for granted today that used to be very expensive.
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:47 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Thread starter):
Timing would work with Gore flaming Obama on his weakness on Global warming. This is a campaign move IMO but I mean this is so not in the ball park. 56.2 mpg average? I mean thats not that long a time to have all Priuses out there is it?

56.2 is not so bad, considering most people (including myself) fill up the tanks once or twice per week (somewhere in the ballpark of $55 per fill up depending on what you drive). It's about time the government started thinking about more fuel efficient vehicles and an emissions standard such as this. After all, most of the conflicts of the last 2 decades have centered around black gold, and the troubles that come with it. You'd think at some point, we would invest more money into research for alternative bio-fuels and more fuel efficient vehicles. This stuff ain't gonna last forever, espicially with the monstrosity of commercialism and industry that has been taking place in China the last few decades. 56.2 mpg by 2025 sounds like a blessing, campaign move or not!

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):

Another idiotic from Obama. Just another reason to vote him out of office.
The high gas prices should make Obama happy since it's closer to what people pay for gas in Europe. Afterall, his goal is to make America like Europe.
Wait a minute, there is an election coming up next year, better tap in to those emergency oil reserves.

High gas prices in Europe is due to carbon taxing, something that hasn't quite caught on this country. The fact that we're paying the same price at the pump as Europeans, but their gas has an additional tax, means that we're actually paying more on average if you think about it.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Afterall, his goal is to make America like Europe.

The Euro ain't so bad, the last time I checked, it was kicking USD ass! And don't get me started on Healthcare!
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
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2707200X
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:58 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
his goal is to make America like Europe.

That's an assumed goal but aside from the euro bashing I see nothing wrong with increasing the fuel efficiency standards. Motor companies should also be looking for serious alternatives to gasoline in the deep future as gas is finite and it is only going to get more expensive.

[Edited 2011-06-26 20:59:10]
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Airport
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:19 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Another idiotic from Obama. Just another reason to vote him out of office.
The high gas prices should make Obama happy since it's closer to what people pay for gas in Europe. Afterall, his goal is to make America like Europe.
Wait a minute, there is an election coming up next year, better tap in to those emergency oil reserves.

There are plenty of reasons to dislike Obama and the job he's doing, but I can't see anything wrong with mandating fuel-efficient cars. As our economy is so dependent on oil, it only makes sense that Americans be forced to conserve it as much as possible, since it's quite obvious the free-market isn't doing a very good job at it. Conserve that fuel for transportation methods that need it most, such as aircraft, trucks, ships, etc. That will help prices on virtually everything come down. Fuel conservation should be a no-brainer in a tight economy.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:27 am

Will this move mean for vehicle safety? Simple physics says to get 56.2 MPG, your vehicle is going to have to be very light. Simple physics also tells us that if you have a very light vehicle and you get in a wreck with one of these current day gas guzzling SUVs, your little car is going to lose. Now this isn't fully true if you have a hybrid, and surely battery and hybrid technology will likely to continue to improve, but even hybrids have their own issues that have to be overcome.

I have no problem with the government offering tax or financial incentives to pursue such propositions, and I'm all for green technology because I do recognize the pumps will eventually run dry, but for them to mandate this is out-of-bounds, IMO.

Quoting Airport (Reply 6):
There are plenty of reasons to dislike Obama and the job he's doing, but I can't see anything wrong with mandating fuel-efficient cars. As our economy is so dependent on oil, it only makes sense that Americans be forced to conserve it as much as possible, since it's quite obvious the free-market isn't doing a very good job at it. Conserve that fuel for transportation methods that need it most, such as aircraft, trucks, ships, etc. That will help prices on virtually everything come down. Fuel conservation should be a no-brainer in a tight economy.

How about we conserve fuel by not wasting thousands of gallons of oil to fly the AF1 and all the support aircraft to Chicago for the President to appear on episodes of Oprah...
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NIKV69
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:38 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 4):
56.2 is not so bad

??? The Prius averages probably around 50.0 so in 14 years we need to find a way that the only cars sold get better avg MPG than the Prius.

This isn't even remotely possible.
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fr8mech
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:40 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 4):
The Euro ain't so bad, the last time I checked, it was kicking USD ass! And don't get me started on Healthcare!

Ever been to a European nation for an extended period (live there)? Especially one of the PIGS (no offense, I hail from and my dad still lives in 'G').

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 4):
High gas prices in Europe is due to carbon taxing, something that hasn't quite caught on this country. The fact that we're paying the same price at the pump as Europeans,

We are not paying the same. In fact, it appears, that most European drivers pay at least twice what we pay. But, look at the blue line...they pay at least 50% in tax on fuel. It seems to me that if you subtract the blue line from the red, everyone would be paying about the same.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...-water-i-and-i-10-a-gallon/238226/

Look, I'm all for higher gas mileage. But, I don't think it's up to the government to set the standard. Let the market do it, just like it did in the 70's. If we are really at or passed 'peak oil' (I doubt it), then the price of gasoline (and all other 'crude oil' products) will rise naturally. Manufacturers will be forced by the consumer to do something about the mileage.

56.2 mpg? What kind of stupid number is that?

Hell, by 2025, we may have a new technology that makes the MPG standards (and the Middle East) obsolete, but I would't hold my breath.

Oh, and yes, President Obama is pandering to the Gore environmentalists. He is losing his base. We can expect to see quite a few public swings to the Left in the next several months.

[Edited 2011-06-26 21:42:44]
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DocLightning
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:52 am

I don't understand why people think that this move means Obama wants high gas prices.

If we lower demand, we decrease price, right?
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fr8mech
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:08 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
I don't understand why people think that this move means Obama wants high gas prices.

Obama wants high prices as a push to increase MPG standards. If he (or the government) can artificially raise the price of gas, then we, the lemmings, will scream for higher MPG, at the expense of the vehicles we may need or want.
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Newark727
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:10 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
Obama wants high prices as a push to increase MPG standards. If he (or the government) can artificially raise the price of gas, then we, the lemmings, will scream for higher MPG, at the expense of the vehicles we may need or want.

I would think that the political pitfalls of high gas prices would massively outweigh the benefits of higher MPG standards, even to the most massive of policy wonks.
 
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:13 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 7):
How about we conserve fuel by not wasting thousands of gallons of oil to fly the AF1 and all the support aircraft to Chicago for the President to appear on episodes of Oprah...

What does that have to do with the subject? And where did I say I agree with what he did? You're focusing on the person delivering the message, not the message itself. I think the ambitious proposal is a sound one. Just because some of the things he's done in office I disagree with, doesn't mean I disagree with all of them.
 
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:13 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):

Obama wants high prices as a push to increase MPG standards. If he (or the government) can artificially raise the price of gas, then we, the lemmings, will scream for higher MPG, at the expense of the vehicles we may need or want.

It's interesting to note that this very week, the Obama administration decided to lower gas prices by tapping the SPR and working with OPEC to raise production.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:18 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 12):
I would think that the political pitfalls of high gas prices would massively outweigh the benefits of higher MPG standards, even to the most massive of policy wonks.

You'd think so, but I don't think he and/or his advisers see it that way.

Remember, they are trying to rally a lack luster base. One of the more vocal and energetic groups from the Left are the environmentalists, who tend to believe that higher prices will lead to less consumption (it does). But, they want governmental interference in the price mechanism...taxation, drilling and refining restrictions, etc. in addition to any of the natural market forces that affect price.

See, he thinks he gets a two-fer. He gets the environmentalists behind him and he gets to tell us that he is pushing Big Auto to save us money by demanding higher MPG.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:47 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Another idiotic from Obama. Just another reason to vote him out of office.

What is wrong with driving more efficient cars, it means it costs you less than driving a landyacht like the one you own.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
Ever been to a European nation for an extended period (live there)? Especially one of the PIGS (no offense, I hail from and my dad still lives in 'G').

I do, free healthcare and education is great, I don't see why you would think it isn't.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:52 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):
it means it costs you less than driving a landyacht like the one you own.

        

Now that is just too funny.



Kidding aside I see bad things in CA when it comes to things like this. My friend has an 87' Porsche he drives on the weekend and trust me it isn't a boat. Yet in perfect working condition it doesn't come close to passing smog.

Priuses are coming.

[Edited 2011-06-27 00:00:03]
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Superfly
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:38 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 4):
The Euro ain't so bad, the last time I checked, it was kicking USD ass! And don't get me started on Healthcare!

Thanks to Obama, the dollar will continue to slide in value. Speaking of health-care, why wasn't France system used as an example?

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 5):
That's an assumed goal but aside from the euro bashing

Umm, I'm Obama-bashing.  
Quoting CargoLex (Reply 14):
It's interesting to note that this very week, the Obama administration decided to lower gas prices by tapping the SPR

Can someone tell me what the 'emergency' is to justify the President's stupid actions?



There are a lot of efficient cars on the market and those that want them, buy them. No need to force car manufactures to make more cars than the market desires.
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dxing
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:13 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Thread starter):
Timing would work with Gore flaming Obama on his weakness on Global warming.

Well we have to make up for Gores size 1,000,000,000 carbon foot print somehow.
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dxing
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:19 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
I don't understand why people think that this move means Obama wants high gas prices.

If we lower demand, we decrease price, right?



That might work if the rest of the world didn't use any oil.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 14):
It's interesting to note that this very week, the Obama administration decided to lower gas prices by tapping the SPR and working with OPEC to raise production.



In total they are releasing 60 million barrels from the strategic reserves. Since the start of the Libyan uprising an estimated 120 million barrels has not found its way to market. You do the math. Prices had already started to fall before this was announced as it is becoming apparent that the summer driving season may well likely be a bust in this country. Good luck with OPEC Mr. President.
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Superfly
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:32 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 20):
Good luck with OPEC Mr. President.

Sounds like Obama has been listening to Donald Trump, a lot.

Quoting dxing (Reply 19):
Well we have to make up for Gores size 1,000,000,000 carbon foot print somehow.

LOL!  
I think Obama wants to win an Oscar too.
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:28 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
I don't understand why people think that this move means Obama wants high gas prices.

The less consumers spend on gasoline the more money they have to spend on other items. Which is good for the economy, I don't see why Conservatives do not embrace this idea. Less money in the Saudi, Venezuelan, Nigerian Government pockets and more money in the pockets of American consumers.

Makes sense to me.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:12 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
If we are really at or passed 'peak oil' (I doubt it), then the price of gasoline (and all other 'crude oil' products) will rise naturally.

Isn't that a bit too late? I don't see it as a left vs right issue rather a strategic and security one. What is so difficult to understand that a gallon less spend means a dollar less in Saudi pocket and hopefullty a dollar less available to fund Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Qaida, etc. Isn't this a more pressing issue than a twisted "freedom" to waste precious oil just because my penis size issues?
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:37 pm

Quoting Airport (Reply 13):
What does that have to do with the subject? And where did I say I agree with what he did? You're focusing on the person delivering the message, not the message itself. I think the ambitious proposal is a sound one. Just because some of the things he's done in office I disagree with, doesn't mean I disagree with all of them.

It's all political. They always go back to AF1 and the amount of money spent to fly the President around, like he's the only President in history to fly to places around the world on AF1  
Quoting dxing (Reply 20):
That might work if the rest of the world didn't use any oil.

If the rest of the world sees us take the lead, and sees the decrease on our dependence for foreign oil, then you don't think they might try the same thing? It's a copy cat mentality we live in after WWII, Countries try to duplicate our success as much as possible.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
There are a lot of efficient cars on the market and those that want them, buy them. No need to force car manufactures to make more cars than the market desires.

Efficient, but extremely expensive. All these hybrids that get 30,40,or 50 MPG cost more than your standard car because of the amount of money they save you in the future. If most if not all cars got the same 56.2 MPG, it would be back to a level playing field.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 14):
It's interesting to note that this very week, the Obama administration decided to lower gas prices by tapping the SPR and working with OPEC to raise production.

Funny how they never point out the truth ehh?
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Superfly
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:05 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 24):
Efficient, but extremely expensive. All these hybrids

Not all efficient cars are hybrids. Volkswagen TDIs sold on the US market get phenomenal mileage and in many cases, better than a hybrid.
Fuel efficiency is a selling point for many cars in trucks. All car manufactures understand that they will have a hard time selling a car that get 8 miles per gallon unless it's a high-end exotic sports car. Car manufactures have been working towards better efficiency for over 40 years. Efficiency was going up years before the first CAFE laws was enacted in 1975.
Car manufactures that sell efficient cars will attract a lot of buyers and brands that sell gas-guzzlers will have a hard time selling their cars. It's already been this way for years.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 24):
Funny how they never point out the truth ehh?

I already pointed that out in reply #2.
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Aaron747
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:06 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Thread starter):
This is a campaign move IMO but I mean this is so not in the ball park. 56.2 mpg average? I mean thats not that long a time to have all Priuses out there is it?

I mean I want to see a lot less SUVs out there but this is a bit extreme.

I don't understand at all why this is extreme...it's already being done over in this neck of the woods.

Our 2008 Toyota crossover weighs 3400 lbs, seats 6, and gets 39.8 MPG highway if I did the conversion right. That's 15 or so points better than a comparable CR-V or whatever in the US. What the hell are they doing wrong out there? Yeah the engine is pretty small but we're not going to cross the Alps with it nor haul heavy machinery so who cares?

http://www.lx-mode.jp/lineup/assets_c/2010/10/SIENTA%201-thumb-750x370-1183.jpg

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 7):
hybrids have their own issues that have to be overcome.

Hybrids are a dirty little joke. The rare minerals needed for production of their batteries are possibly in shorter supply long term than oil, and a lot of them are sourced in China. Go figure.
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airtran737
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:15 pm

He can kiss my @ss with that one. I quite enjoy my 8.3L Viper V-10 that gets 9 mpg city and 12.4 on the freeway.
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NIKV69
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:22 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 26):
and gets 39.8 MPG highway if I did the conversion right. That's 15 or so points better than a comparable CR-V or whatever in the US. What the hell are they doing wrong out there? Yeah the engine is pretty small but we're not going to cross the Alps with it nor haul heavy machinery so who cares?

Great but it has to get 60 mpg highway to even come close to Obama's plan.
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Aaron747
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:38 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 28):
Great but it has to get 60 mpg highway to even come close to Obama's plan.

You're talking 2025 though. The engineers here keep squeezing every ounce they can out of internal combustion engines and then some. They take it right through the line from better air conditioners to the fuel injection computer to whatever else. My question is, why aren't the US models getting same?

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 27):
I quite enjoy my 8.3L Viper V-10 that gets 9 mpg city and 12.4 on the freeway.

There's a bad locker room joke just begging to be told on that one.
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PHLBOS
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:01 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
Let the market do it, just like it did in the 70's.

Actually, the bill to establish the original CAFE standards and timetable milestones/mandates was signed into law in 1975 and first took effect for the 1978 model year. To a degree, that mandate was one reason WHY we started seeing compacts and even subcompacts offered among even domestic luxury brands.

Quoting Airport (Reply 13):
You're focusing on the person delivering the message, not the message itself.

Ever hear of "Do as I say, not do as I do" ?

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 14):
It's interesting to note that this very week, the Obama administration decided to lower gas prices by tapping the SPR and working with OPEC to raise production.

That's because the economy's still stuck in the the mud and a double-dip recession is possibly lurking around the corner. Such issues are an absolute deal-breaker for a President's (ANY President) re-election efforts.

Not to mention that continuously rising and high gas prices almost always eventually deal a blow to the U.S. economy.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 1):
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 4):
Quoting 2707200X (Reply 5):
Quoting Airport (Reply 6):

Just out of curiosity, what kind of vehicles do each of the four of you drive and with what engines?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):

While it's very easy to pick on those that drive land yachts, SUVs, pickup trucks and even minivans; but please keep in mind that even small, sporty, performance cars that many on this board like (but dispise the above) and drive would be targeted by this mandate as well.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Another idiotic from Obama. Just another reason to vote him out of office.

   Also another reason to place more conservatives (not RINOs) in the House AND Senate; because this is where such legislation is either created or dies.

When I first started chiming in the Non-Avs many years ago, one of the hot topics was the CAFE debate. I essentially warned that once a modest increase is excepted; it wasn't going to be enough in the eyes of the enviros.

It's a classic case of one giving them an inch... and they'll take a mile.
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Newark727
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:08 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 30):
Just out of curiosity, what kind of vehicles do each of the four of you drive and with what engines?

1.6L Honda Fit. Not getting great milage out of it at the moment though, think I need new tires.
 
dxing
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:08 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 22):
The less consumers spend on gasoline the more money they have to spend on other items. Which is good for the economy, I don't see why Conservatives do not embrace this idea. Less money in the Saudi, Venezuelan, Nigerian Government pockets and more money in the pockets of American consumers.

Again, if no one else used oil then this idea might make sense. Since they do, and are actually using more and more of it every year, the price will remain high and only go higher. On the other end of the spectrum, are you somehow going to get the distances that need to be traveled in this country shortened?

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 24):
If the rest of the world sees us take the lead, and sees the decrease on our dependence for foreign oil, then you don't think they might try the same thing?

Yep, that sure has worked with China and coal fired power plants. Banning drilling in the gulf sure has made the Mexicans, and Cubans think twice about doing it right?
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futurepilot16
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:16 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 30):
Just out of curiosity, what kind of vehicles do each of the four of you drive and with what engines?

2003 nissan maxima, V6 engine
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Kiwirob
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:37 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 30):
While it's very easy to pick on those that drive land yachts, SUVs, pickup trucks and even minivans; but please keep in mind that even small, sporty, performance cars that many on this board like (but dispise the above) and drive would be targeted by this mandate as well.

Most people who drive small sporty performance cars don't use them as daily drivers, they tend to be weekend cars, so there impact is fairly minimal.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:40 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 29):
You're talking 2025 though. The engineers here keep squeezing every ounce they can out of internal combustion engines and then some. They take it right through the line from better air conditioners to the fuel injection computer to whatever else. My question is, why aren't the US models getting same?

No matter what you do it's not practical. It's an insane # designed to pacify Gore and gain points with moveon.org.

You want to say that every new car sold in 2025 has to average 38 MPG you are in the ballpark. over 50? That is insane.
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:48 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 34):
Most people who drive small sporty performance cars don't use them as daily drivers, they tend to be weekend cars, so there impact is fairly minimal.



And in ObamaGore world ..... we little people just don't deserve a weekend car. Just think of the poor who don't even have a car ...and you need a extra one !!?? pure greed and selfishness.
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PHLBOS
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:57 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 31):
1.6L Honda Fit. Not getting great milage out of it at the moment though, think I need new tires.

Very well, but even with a new 2011 model in prestine condition; the fuel economy ratings (engine listed is a 1.5L, is that 1.6L listing a typo?) range from 27-28 city to 33-35 highway depending on transmission choice. The CAFE (which is based on an AVERAGE or combined city/highway rating of sorts) falls BELOW the 2016 CAFE figure of 35.5 mpg and WELL BELOW the discussed future 56.2 target. In short, the current Honda Fit would be considered a gas-guzzler for 2025.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

Next.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 33):
2003 nissan maxima, V6 engine

17 city/24 highway (new EPA rating system) 20 city/26 highway (old EPA rating system which was posted on the window sticker) for the automatic and 19/26 (new)/21/28 (old) for one equipped with the manual. Bottom line: your Maxima falls short of the 27.5 CAFE rating that existed for 2003, let alone any higher standards (both current and proposed) but yet you appear to be one that supports such draconian increases.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

Next.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 28):
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 26):
and gets 39.8 MPG highway if I did the conversion right. That's 15 or so points better than a comparable CR-V or whatever in the US. What the hell are they doing wrong out there? Yeah the engine is pretty small but we're not going to cross the Alps with it nor haul heavy machinery so who cares?

Great but it has to get 60 mpg highway to even come close to Obama's plan.

   I'm also guessing that your (Aaron) model is NOT equipped w/AWD. That feature alone adds weight (which increases fuel consumption) and cost to a vehicle. Many in the snowbelt regions WANT their vehicles equipped with AWD. Whether (no pun intended) they actually NEED AWD is a whole other story.
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:59 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 35):
You want to say that every new car sold in 2025 has to average 38 MPG you are in the ballpark. over 50? That is insane.

So you're saying we shouldn't try and overachieve? What's stopping us? The technology is there, we just need policy to mandate the automakers to produce more fuel efficient vehicles, because god knows they won't do it on their own until someone starts to complain
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:03 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 37):
I'm also guessing that your (Aaron) model is NOT equipped w/AWD. That feature alone adds weight (which increases fuel consumption) and cost to a vehicle. Many in the snowbelt regions WANT their vehicles equipped with AWD. Whether (no pun intended) they actually NEED AWD is a whole other story.

FYI it snows a fair bit here, they had the Winter Olympics and all. I guess the early morning salt cats on the roads are enough.
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:13 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 38):
So you're saying we shouldn't try and overachieve? What's stopping us? The technology is there, we just need policy to mandate the automakers to produce more fuel efficient vehicles, because god knows they won't do it on their own until someone starts to complain

Assuming the technology is there, and I don't think it is, the manufacturers will do it when the consumer demands it. It's really that simple. Ask yourself, with the current crop of vehicles getting 30mpg+, why are trucks, SUV's and cars getting less than 30mpg still pretty strong? Oh, the demand is probably trending down...when demand gets low enough, the manufacturers will move more aggressively into the low mpg market. And please, don't be so naive as to think that the manufacturers' R&D groups aren't aggressively looking at high mpg technologies.
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:34 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 37):

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Yes my Fit would be considered a gas guzzler. But so would many cars made fourteen years ago, if sold today. You can't paint me for a hypocrite for not driving a car that doesn't exist yet. Maybe we'll miss 56.2, but I think the consumer will be as a whole better off for us having tried to get closer.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:10 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 41):
But so would many cars made fourteen years ago, if sold today.

Wrong. Many of the small cars on the market today actually get LOWER mileage ratings than their predecessors of the 80s and even early 90s. The reason(s) for that include: added weight due to increased safety requirements (airbags, side-impact beams) as well as increased horsepower ratings (the older econoboxes could not do 0 to 60 under 10 seconds let alone 7 or 8) have caused those ratings to drop.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 41):
You can't paint me for a hypocrite for not driving a car that doesn't exist yet.

But you do drive a car that does NOT post the highest EPA ratings when compared among many of the Fit's competitors (a few break the 40 mpg highway figure) as well as diesels (where available) and hybrids. Even a Ford Fusion Hybrid's EPA 41 city/36 highway rating (which exceeds the 2016 CAFE figure of 35 mpg BTW) blows the Fit's ratings out of the water.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 39):
FYI it snows a fair bit here, they had the Winter Olympics and all. I guess the early morning salt cats on the roads are enough.

I am well aware of that and I grew up in Massachusetts at a time when FWD-based vehicles were still in the distinct minority and we got around by simply just putting snow tires (and even tire chains) on our RWD vehicles.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:32 pm

I think part of the issue is that we have bigger fish to fry than setting the MPG standard at 56.2 -- like fixing the unemployment rate which is stuck at 9%.

But I have to say for a democrat like Obama, it doesn't seem like the environment is a priority for his administration at all EG: drilling in Alaska to cool the insanely high gas prices and *COUGH* that spill that the media seemed to forget about after a little while which the current administration seemed to do NOTHING about. I'm sure conservationists don't like him.
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:36 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 40):
Assuming the technology is there, and I don't think it is, the manufacturers will do it when the consumer demands it. It's really that simple.

No, it's actually not. Very many features of modern cars have been introduced to meet regulatory demands and to evade liability risks (again going back to regulations and liability legislation).
 
Klaus
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:43 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 43):
I think part of the issue is that we have bigger fish to fry than setting the MPG standard at 56.2 -- like fixing the unemployment rate which is stuck at 9%.

Actually being able to develop and to manufacture competitive cars domestically is a major boon to the job market. Bailing out the US car industry has been part of the economic problems, even though the alternative may well have been even worse.

Germany definitely hasn't won its export successes by complacently believing that all its products were "good enough" and didn't need any further improvements.
 
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:48 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 7):
Will this move mean for vehicle safety? Simple physics says to get 56.2 MPG, your vehicle is going to have to be very light.

Do you know how much energy in an internal combustion engine is lost to heat?

Quoting dxing (Reply 20):


That might work if the rest of the world didn't use any oil.

The rest of the world uses a lot less than we do per capita.
-Doc Lightning-

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futurepilot16
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:44 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 45):
Actually being able to develop and to manufacture competitive cars domestically is a major boon to the job market. Bailing out the US car industry has been part of the economic problems, even though the alternative may well have been even worse.

Thank you for letting them know. People only sit down and bitch about the unemployment rate, but can't come up with any real solutions. Green energy and technology is the future. My frat brothers and I are already coming up with ideas and researching companies to invest in who produce green technology because we expect this market to grow at an alarming rate in the next 20-30 years. If you don't want to get behind it, get out of the way and watch the rest of us make money! There are so many jobs to come out of this industry because it's relatively non-existent and still in it's early stages. We can easily take charge of the world's demand for energy and green technology, it's just up to our government to give the go ahead.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 46):
The rest of the world uses a lot less than we do per capita.

Hell, I once read that the most common form of transportation in China are those little Bicycle taxis'.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
fruitbat
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:33 pm

I don't get the problem. All you need to do is drive BMW diesels:

X3 3.0d Auto - 47mpg
X3 2.0d Auto - 50mpg
3-series 3.0d Auto Touring - 45 mpg

5-series 2.0d - 58mpg (54mpg Auto)
3-series 2.0d - 59mpg (52mpg Auto)

My 3-y-o 1 series (2.0d Auto) gets 50mpg highway easy - and it's not anything like the latest tech.....

In 15 years 56.2mpg will be easy. Job done.

   and RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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RE: Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?

Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:39 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 38):
The technology is there, we just need policy to mandate the automakers to produce more fuel efficient vehicles



The technology is not "there"... it is not. You want to live in a country where federal mandates drive markets ?. What happens when they mandate the 737/ A320 out of existence ?... Whatever the government deems good becomes a mandate ?

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 47):
Hell, I once read that the most common form of transportation in China are those little Bicycle taxis'.



And your president told us we need to "look at China" since they are out pacing us in human advancement.

Quoting fruitbat (Reply 48):
don't get the problem. All you need to do is drive BMW diesels:



Its not about fuel mileage ... gas prices or anything like that . Its about mandates ... bureaucracies and power over capitalism. Its a war on capitalism period.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !

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