User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 8557
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:32 pm

Apparently some of the world's leading luxury retail brands are hopelessly out of touch with one of their biggest markets.

AS TOKYO sizzles in the summer heat, ordinary consumers are scrimping to save energy, in dutiful hopes of offsetting the shortages caused by the outage at Fukushima and other nuclear plants. Meanwhile luxury boutiques are snubbing their noses at such plebeian pastimes. The fancier shops are propping their doors wide open—in the belief that their air-conditioned cool will increase foot traffic. Their power-hungry largesse is left to stream wastefully out onto the pavement.

Vuitton, Burberry, et al apparently don't feel the need to respond to the nation's crisis. Putting aside the absurd notion that cool air will convince anyone to buy a $3,000 bag who wasn't already going to purchase one, these companies seem to think they operate in a bubble. The 15% energy reduction targets are being observed by nearly every large company and household in the country, much less Tokyo. Even far outside the capital, we've been working in buildings where the air-conditioning has been set at 28C (84F) and companies nationwide have dropped their conservative dress codes in favor of summer-appropriate short sleeves without ties and jackets. 31C may not seem like a terribly hot day, but factor in the humidity over 75% and urban heat island effects and it's plenty damned hot. These retail strategies smell badly of corporate irresponsibility, or at worst, outright highbrow indifference to the suffering of everyone.

It makes the Tokyo boutiques' "business as usual" approach all the more noticeable. And in a society that values shared sacrifices, it is strikingly at odds with the ethos of the Japanese public who are otherwise sweating in their homes and offices to save power.

Unsurprisingly, a quick morning survey of Japanese fashion blogs finds comments in the vein of "don't give these shops your money!" and "they don't care about Japan!" How long will it take for these retailers to get the message? Of course one could argue if you pay for power, you can use it as you see fit, but at some point you have to understand you don't operate in a market vacuum.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2011/06/tokyos-luxury-retailers
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
B6JFKH81
Posts: 1970
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:35 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:23 am

This strategy is used all over the place, not just in Japan. I remember a similar issue last year when NYC was getting hit with some really bad heat spells, which was straining the electrical system due to all the A/C's running and "luxury shops" were keeping theirs on full blast with doors wiiiiiiiiiiiiide open to help lure people in seeking    from the    , but also to ensure that their high-end clients are as comfortable as possible...which I guess is expected when you are paying as much for a pair of shoes, pocketbook or hat as I did my first car!   
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:55 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Vuitton, Burberry, et al apparently don't feel the need to respond to the nation's crisis.

...as is their right.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
These retail strategies smell badly of corporate irresponsibility, or at worst, outright highbrow indifference to the suffering of everyone.

The stores don't exist to care for everyone, they exist to make money.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
How long will it take for these retailers to get the message?

When, or rather if, it hits their bottom line. If you don't like it, don't buy. It's that simple.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Of course one could argue if you pay for power, you can use it as you see fit,

  
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:57 am

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 1):
This strategy is used all over the place, not just in Japan.

Well yeaaaaaaaaahhhhh, but aren't you kind of missing something? Is 'all over the place' also recovering from what Japan has just experienced?

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

A totally fair conclusion in the circumstances.   
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
ipodguy7
Posts: 456
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:44 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:57 am

Why should they be forced to comply with a voluntary energy reduction? AFAIK Japan is still a free country. I highly doubt that a few shops in Tokyo keeping their AC on will cause much of a disturbance in the power grid of a country the size of Japan, even after the horrible accident. The people who shop at these stores have an expectation of professionalism when they shop, if they are going to pay so much for clothing, accesories, etc., then they are going to want professionally dressed salesmen (unlike some of the businesses in the article), and should expect a comfortable environment (a/c).
AA/DL/NW/CO/UA/US/B6/AS/AC/FI/NY/EI/BD/BA/AF/AZ/DY/SK/QF/JQ/JL
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12422
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:05 am

Perhaps instead of voluntary cuts, the parts of Japan that is under these electrical power problems needs to put in mandatory cuts. They could mandate reduced store hours, minimum temperatures, banning doors being kept open, as well as severe penalties using a formula on their electrical bills for excessive use. Hit them in their cash registers and bank accounts for being so selfish and fuel-ish.
 
Mir
Posts: 19107
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:20 am

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 4):
The people who shop at these stores have an expectation of professionalism when they shop, if they are going to pay so much for clothing, accesories, etc., then they are going to want professionally dressed salesmen (unlike some of the businesses in the article), and should expect a comfortable environment (a/c).

Too damn bad. The country just lost a sizable portion of its generating capacity. It's not unprofessional in the least to put up a sign that says "in an effort to do our part to prevent strain on the electrical grid, we have raised the temperature of the climate control and are keeping the doors shut - we appreciate your understanding."

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 5):
Hit them in their cash registers and bank accounts for being so selfish and fuel-ish.

[checkmark} They should be the first ones to get their power shut off when the grid gets overloaded.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
N867DA
Posts: 934
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:42 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 5):
Perhaps instead of voluntary cuts, the parts of Japan that is under these electrical power problems needs to put in mandatory cuts. They could mandate reduced store hours, minimum temperatures, banning doors being kept open, as well as severe penalties using a formula on their electrical bills for excessive use. Hit them in their cash registers and bank accounts for being so selfish and fuel-ish.
Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 5):
Hit them in their cash registers and bank accounts for being so selfish and fuel-ish.

[checkmark} They should be the first ones to get their power shut off when the grid gets overloaded.

Precisely. These people are the last ones that have a demonstrable need for lower temperatures. It's crazy to think that hundreds of more essential businesses make their employees toil in the heat, but some purveyor of overpriced junk remains cool and refreshed all summer long.

If corporations acted with a conscience, the government wouldn't have to restrict these things. But if these goons are going to play hardball, then I see nothing wrong with their power being taken from them. If they want to keep the A/C on, they are more than welcome to pay for a generator, soundproof it, and use it as needed.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:50 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
They should be the first ones to get their power shut off when the grid gets overloaded.

I don't know utilities work in Japan, but in the US I'd be perfectly right to be pissed if I paid my bills but the power company singled me out for reduced service.

If they do that they're no better than Enron.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 7):
It's crazy to think that hundreds of more essential businesses make their employees toil in the heat, but some purveyor of overpriced junk remains cool and refreshed all summer long.

They can afford it. It's like criticizing someone for buying a Ferrari when you know they could get to work just as easily in a Civic, but since you aren't paying for it, your not allowed to make that criticism. Not if you want to be taken seriously anyway.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 7):
If corporations acted with a conscience, the government wouldn't have to restrict these things.

If the situation is that dire, the government can set up a program to do that. Somehow I don't think they will though.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
AR385
Posts: 6742
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:55 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
...as is their right.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
The stores don't exist to care for everyone, they exist to make money.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
When, or rather if, it hits their bottom line. If you don't like it, don't buy. It's that simple.

I am surprised at your the degree of irreverent capitalism. There is something called solidarity, and it applies to Economics too. Of course, you are entitlted to your opinion, I am just mentioning I find it rather heartless and supeficial.

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Too damn bad. The country just lost a sizable portion of its generating capacity. It's not unprofessional in the least to put up a sign that says "in an effort to do our part to prevent strain on the electrical grid, we have raised the temperature of the climate control and are keeping the doors shut - we appreciate your understanding."

Exactly. Or, if these stores insist in doing the described activity, the Japanese parliament (if they ever agree on it) ought to slap them with an emergency electricity consuption tax, hopefully, expensive enough to discourage such ridiculous practices. If you exceed a certain number of Mega Watt consumption you pay it. That´ll teach these stores.

Of course, there are always two sides to each storry, and I don´t think we have read the two versions yet.
 
N867DA
Posts: 934
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:01 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):


Quoting N867DA (Reply 7):
It's crazy to think that hundreds of more essential businesses make their employees toil in the heat, but some purveyor of overpriced junk remains cool and refreshed all summer long.

They can afford it. It's like criticizing someone for buying a Ferrari when you know they could get to work just as easily in a Civic, but since you aren't paying for it, your not allowed to make that criticism. Not if you want to be taken seriously anyway.

In a major war, I expect Ferrari to stop selling $200,000 sports cars because there are better uses for metal and rubber. In the face of a massive catastrophe that affects millions, I expect a company that does business with the local population to cut back on power consumption. I don't care how much money they have. If there isn't enough power, then they're not important enough to get it. I hope the government has the stones to deal with these companies if the situation gets more critical.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 9):
I am surprised at your the degree of irreverent capitalism. There is something called solidarity, and it applies to Economics too. Of course, you are entitlted to your opinion, I am just mentioning I find it rather heartless and supeficial.

That's because it is heartless and superficial.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
Mir
Posts: 19107
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:04 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
I don't know utilities work in Japan, but in the US I'd be perfectly right to be pissed if I paid my bills but the power company singled me out for reduced service.

Under normal circumstances I'd agree, but these aren't normal circumstances. Rationing electricity is a perfectly acceptable thing to do when supply is short, just as it is with any resource.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
It's like criticizing someone for buying a Ferrari when you know they could get to work just as easily in a Civic

If gas were in extremely limited supply, such criticisms would be entirely justified. Because their fuel inefficiencies don't affect just them - they affect everyone else because of the additional drain on the supply, thus driving prices up.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:27 am

Quoting N867DA (Reply 10):
In a major war, I expect Ferrari to stop selling $200,000 sports cars because there are better uses for metal and rubber.

Only if there is a legislative framework to do so. Besides, the profit margin on tanks is probably a bit better anyways.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 9):
There is something called solidarity, and it applies to Economics too.

It doesn't mean a whole lot if it cannot be translated into cash.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 10):
If there isn't enough power, then they're not important enough to get it.

Unless the government is going to pass some actual rationing it isn't right for people to go around making hit and run judgments about who needs power.

If they start going after these stores without an actual framework it opens up a potentially awful can of worms. People could start tattling on their neighbors for doing too many loads of laundry.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Under normal circumstances I'd agree, but these aren't normal circumstances.

Then the government needs to go set up actual rationing but until then nobody can bitch about how anyone else uses power.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Because their fuel inefficiencies don't affect just them - they affect everyone else because of the additional drain on the supply, thus driving prices up.

Everyone else's budget is not their problem.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
N867DA
Posts: 934
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:33 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Under normal circumstances I'd agree, but these aren't normal circumstances.

Then the government needs to go set up actual rationing but until then nobody can bitch about how anyone else uses power.

Government action is a LAST resort. If enough people in Japan and around the world bitch, then some salesperson will start to raise the thermostat. All is well and good without any government intervention, which is what everyone really wants in this case. The government will only stick its nose in the matter when it's obvious that these people just don't give a damn even after they've been politely told to stop wasting the goddamn power.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:36 am

Quoting N867DA (Reply 13):
The government will only stick its nose in the matter when it's obvious that these people just don't give a damn even after they've been politely told to stop wasting the goddamn power.

Not told, asked. And if they say no, that is their answer and the only thing you can do is not give them your money.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
N867DA
Posts: 934
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:43 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
Not told, asked. And if they say no, that is their answer and the only thing you can do is not give them your money.

If they say no, the correct thing to do is to point out they are being greedy, selfish pigs, which is what is going on now. We are pretty much shaming them into doing the right thing, which indicates how narcissistic these companies are sometimes. If the power situation is still not resolved in a few months, then government action will be required.

Look, like it or not if there is a major power shortage they WILL reduce consumption. The only question they need to ask themselves is, do they want to keep the goodwill of the local population?
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:06 am

Quoting N867DA (Reply 15):
If they say no, the correct thing to do is to point out they are being greedy, selfish pigs, which is what is going on now.

Then don't shop there.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 15):
We are pretty much shaming them into doing the right thing, which indicates how narcissistic these companies are sometimes.

Companies are by definition selfish, for-profit enterprises. Why people want to pretend that isn't true is beyond me.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 15):
do they want to keep the goodwill of the local population?

Depends on how much it is worth. You can't pay dividends in goodwill.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
AR385
Posts: 6742
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:03 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
Companies are by definition selfish, for-profit enterprises. Why people want to pretend that isn't true is beyond me.

You are wrong. There are many companies that are sociallly responisble. Wether they do it because they have been enlightened that in the long run those companies are the ones making more money, is another matter for discussion, but no, not all companies are there for-profit and if that is beyond you, I suggest you go read some recent material on Social Responsibility, Moral Relativeness or simple common sense. But what you are saying makes absolutely no sense in this day and age.

All those companies in Japan that a are being accussed ON THIS SITE of engaging in those unsolidarious policies will soon close their doors and keep their AC inside. Or, thy will sell NOTHING.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:12 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 17):
There are many companies that are sociallly responisble.

But they do it because they find it is profitable, or at least has negligible cost.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 17):
not all companies are there for-profit

The ones that aren't are charities. Which is different.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 17):
All those companies in Japan that a are being accussed ON THIS SITE of engaging in those unsolidarious policies will soon close their doors and keep their AC inside.

...and they'll do it because not doing so costs them. Money talks and Gordon Gekko was right.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 17):
Or, thy will sell NOTHING.

Unless people don't care or like the air conditioning.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
AR385
Posts: 6742
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:30 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
But they do it because they find it is profitable, or at least has negligible

No, they do it because they believe that what they are doing has an impact in the world.

cost.

++++++ote=BMI727,reply=18]The ones that aren't are charities. Which is different.
[/quote]Charitites area a totally diferent ball game. You wish to discuss those, I really can´t help you there.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
...and they'll do it because not doing so costs them. Money talks and Gordon Gekko was right.

You are just making no sense at all.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
Unless people don't care or like the air conditioning.

Really? Wellcome to my city where the temp from June to to the middle of September does not decrease from 38C to 46C

Next time youfeel so smart about a post of mine, do some research. Google is your friend.
 
User avatar
aerorobnz
Posts: 7484
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:43 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:58 am

Put the price of commercial electricity through the roof and force them to your own will - just nail them with their very own capitalism. Supply and demand. You want it you pay for it.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
jessbp
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:07 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:29 am

Surely the government will fine them for non compliance? Isn't it a $12000 fine?
 
Mir
Posts: 19107
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:34 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
Everyone else's budget is not their problem.

I suppose if they were heartless, greedy, selfish jerks who were living in a fantasy bubble where they can do anything without consequences, then they'd feel that way. But I have no problem with that bubble being burst from time to time.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
EDICHC
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:38 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:43 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Too damn bad. The country just lost a sizable portion of its generating capacity. It's not unprofessional in the least to put up a sign that says "in an effort to do our part to prevent strain on the electrical grid, we have raised the temperature of the climate control and are keeping the doors shut - we appreciate your understanding."

  
In the aftermath of the quakes here in Christchurch, some of the remaining stores that were open did exactly that.
A300/319/320/346 ATR72 B722/732/3/4/5/6/8/742/4/752/762/3/772/3 BAC111 BAe146 C172 DHC1/6/8 HS121 MD80 PA28
 
gosimeon
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:45 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:36 am

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 4):
Why should they be forced to comply with a voluntary energy reduction? AFAIK Japan is still a free country.

They aren't being forced to comply with it. The point is they are jerks for not doing their bit, a point i concur with!
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 8557
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:19 pm

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 1):
with doors wiiiiiiiiiiiiide open to help lure people in

As the article correctly notes, there is absolutely no evidence that wide open doors with cold air streaming out make anybody buy anything.

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 4):
Why should they be forced to comply with a voluntary energy reduction? AFAIK Japan is still a free country.

Many things in Japan are not free. Participation in the national health insurance system is compulsory. Cultural power is also very strong in Japan - if the boss is still working, you don't go home, even if you don't have anything to do. If the boss asks you to go for a drink, you don't say no. If you're a new employee in a corporation, you wear black, and only black. This is part of the reason it is unconscionable these companies are being so stupid.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 5):
Perhaps instead of voluntary cuts, the parts of Japan that is under these electrical power problems needs to put in mandatory cuts.

The government wished to avoid mandatory blackouts so as to not inconvenience large manufacturers and their suppliers.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
They can afford it.

That makes it right? Japan's megabanks and manufacturing conglomerates can afford to jack up the AC too, but guess what, they are complying with the government's consumption reduction targets. In fact they are more than doing their part.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):

It doesn't mean a whole lot if it cannot be translated into cash.

Solidarity should mean a lot if you're Louis Vuitton and Japan is your 2nd largest market in the friggin' world.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
Then the government needs to go set up actual rationing but until then nobody can bitch about how anyone else uses power.

Apparently legions of Japanese disagree with you. There's all kinds of bitching on Japanese blogs and the comments sections of news sites about this today. One particularly interesting comment I saw was: "Japan helped make these companies rich and now they kick us when we're down. Time to kick them out!!"

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
When, or rather if, it hits their bottom line. If you don't like it, don't buy. It's that simple.

You can bet it will soon, which makes this policy that much harder to believe. It's inconceivable that local management would be so blind to the market...or they have been countermanded by HQ, who knows. Either way, it's pathetic as far as management policy goes. Luxury market sales are already down by 15% in Japan since the Lehman brothers shock.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):

Companies are by definition selfish, for-profit enterprises. Why people want to pretend that isn't true is beyond me.

Why you want to pretend these companies can conduct this kind of policy in a vacuum is beyond me. Making your entire operation a target is idiotic. There's an old Japanese proverb that goes: "the nail that stands tallest gets hit by the hammer hardest." Japanese kids are taught that from day one as a lesson in doing what everyone else does and not standing out.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
bhill
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:53 pm

Ahhh BMI727...my perfect example of what Capitalism is all about...a true cancer...just like cancer, it must grow and consume nonstop or it dies....as Lewis Black stated so well..."How much shit do you need?"
Carpe Pices
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:04 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
Companies are by definition selfish, for-profit enterprises. Why people want to pretend that isn't true is beyond me.

I am pretty sure that everyone understands perfectly well that companies want to make money, and generally exist for that reason. Why that means that we should pretend there is no issue with the energy supply, or that they should be totally devoid of responsibility or conscience, is a complete mystery.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:21 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
But I have no problem with that bubble being burst from time to time.

Let people try then.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 25):
That makes it right?

That makes it allowed. They pay for the power so they can use it as they wish. If you don't like it, don't shop there.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 25):
Solidarity should mean a lot if you're Louis Vuitton and Japan is your 2nd largest market in the friggin' world.

I hope their accountants are doing the cost benefit analysis on this. The stores are going to do what's best for them, as they should.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 25):
Apparently legions of Japanese disagree with you. There's all kinds of bitching on Japanese blogs and the comments sections of news sites about this today. One particularly interesting comment I saw was: "Japan helped make these companies rich and now they kick us when we're down. Time to kick them out!!"

Then don't shop there. This isn't complicated.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 27):
Why that means that we should pretend there is no issue with the energy supply, or that they should be totally devoid of responsibility or conscience, is a complete mystery.

They should do what's most profitable. If that means opening doors and blasting AC, then so be it.

Quoting bhill (Reply 26):
Ahhh BMI727...my perfect example of what Capitalism is all about...a true cancer...just like cancer, it must grow and consume nonstop or it dies....as Lewis Black stated so well..."How much shit do you need?"

Are you saying that it's a bad thing?
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5438
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:48 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
Then the government needs to go set up actual rationing but until then nobody can bitch about how anyone else uses power.

Isn't rationing what the Japanese are trying to prevent? By exercising common sense and being responsible... among other things. Since responsibility is what conservatives like to emphasize so often, I am quite surprised you have such difficulties to see the bigger picture in this case.

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 4):
AFAIK Japan is still a free country. I highly doubt that a few shops in Tokyo keeping their AC on will cause much of a disturbance in the power grid of a country the size of Japan, even after the horrible accident.

That's why nobody prevents them from behaving like irresponsible idiots and crank up their a/c as they wish. However, being a free country means that they should not be exempted from criticism.
Because you can does not mean you should.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:38 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
They should do what's most profitable.

'Should' by whose standards or reasons? Just because it may make them more money does not equate to saying that they 'should' do it. There are a lot of pretty darn good reasons why they should NOT do it.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:52 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 29):
Since responsibility is what conservatives like to emphasize so often, I am quite surprised you have such difficulties to see the bigger picture in this case.

People can ask them to cut their power consumption and they can say no. That's perfectly fine. After that, people can be pissed and not shop there and the government can set up a formal rationing plan if the situation is that dire.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
'Should' by whose standards or reasons?

According to the law. If it's legal and it will make them more money, they should do it. The goal, after all, is to be profitable.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
There are a lot of pretty darn good reasons why they should NOT do it.

If those reasons don't add up on the balance sheet they don't really make that much of a difference.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 8557
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:21 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
If those reasons don't add up on the balance sheet they don't really make that much of a difference.

If you want to play contrarian on this case fine, but you still have not addressed the main concern: that this policy is obviously going to be bad for business given both the current market conditions and PR considerations. A business has a responsibility to be responsive to the market in which it operates, no? It is obviously poor management to exercise operating practices that run counter to cultural considerations, no? If this is not the case then most corporations are wasting a hell of a lot of money on localization.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:13 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 32):
If you want to play contrarian on this case fine, but you still have not addressed the main concern: that this policy is obviously going to be bad for business given both the current market conditions and PR considerations.

I've addressed that multiple times and it is very simple: if this policy really is going to be bad for business, they should change it.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:58 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
According to the law. If it's legal and it will make them more money, they should do it. The goal, after all, is to be profitable.

I doubt very much there is a law that says they 'should' act like selfish idiots in this way, whether or not it is legal.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
If those reasons don't add up on the balance sheet they don't really make that much of a difference.

Yes, they do make a difference. Just not necessarily to profits, which for the millionth time, is not the only consideration here regardless of whether profit making is a company's primary goal.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 2967
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:14 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
Unless the government is going to pass some actual rationing it isn't right for people to go around making hit and run judgments about who needs power.

Ironic, coming from a free-market conservative. Imagine this were happening in the States. Company A is being wasteful in a time of national crisis (for shits and giggles, let's say a company is literally dumping barrels of oil out, because hypothetically, they might stand to make money from it [I know the logic doesn't flow, but it's irrelevant to the point], but they paid for them). This is causing a windfall effect whereby the price of oil for everyone else goes up, the environment is damaged, and there is a potential shortage of oil for use by "necessary" things.

As a corporation, do they have a right to pay for that extra oil, and waste it because it might make them an extra buck? Yes. Does that make it right? No.

Now here's the problem. Your solution is to stop using this company's services and/or increase government regulation. Based on what I've read of your posts in other threads, there is NO way you would support increasing government regulation on just about anything. Neither would any other free-market conservative, because it's, by definition, increasing the size, scope, and power of the government. Particularly in a case where there is a far more simple solution, conservatives in this country would be go batshit crazy because a liberal (most likely) wanted more oversight to prevent unnecessary wasting of some good/service. But the reality is, whoever tried enacting this additional government oversight would be villainized by conservatives, and the motion would quite likely be shot down. To pretend otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of the current American political system.

So your solution, when push comes to shove, is to do leave it to the government to do something which quite likely wouldn't get done anyway, and if it did, would be just another example of the government trying to impose more regulation on our lives (even though it's very clearly the "right thing").

And people wonder why conservatives are seen as protecting the "evil corporation"...

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 29):
Since responsibility is what conservatives like to emphasize so often, I am quite surprised you have such difficulties to see the bigger picture in this case.

  

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12422
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:21 pm

Even here in the NY City area last summer and probably again this summer some stores will cut back on lighting run buildings at warmer temps so less air conditioning use as part of a co-operative agreement with power companies and local/state governments to avoid brownouts and breaking the power grid.
 
Mir
Posts: 19107
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:05 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 35):
Imagine this were happening in the States.

Well there's a very good example in the US. New Mexico is experiencing a massive wildfire, but the governor is legally prohibited from banning sales of fireworks. So the state government is asking residents not to use fireworks for Independence Day, and instead go to the professionally-run shows. Someone would legally be able to buy fireworks and set them off in their backyard, but they'd still be selfish, uncaring, reckless jerks for doing so.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:09 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Unsurprisingly, a quick morning survey of Japanese fashion blogs finds comments in the vein of "don't give these shops your money!" and "they don't care about Japan!" How long will it take for these retailers to get the message? Of course one could argue if you pay for power, you can use it as you see fit, but at some point you have to understand you don't operate in a market vacuum.


This is just like when there is a gas shortage, the people that think they know better and care more say that all forms of motor racing should be stopped, that its a waste of fuel. They fail to realize that the amount of fuel used in racing (less that 1/10 of 1%) is so small that a total racing ban would be inconsequential.

These high end luxury store us such a small portion of the total electricity that them shutting down completely, which people with class envy would love to see, would make such a small difference it would not be noticeable.
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 2967
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:29 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 38):
This is just like when there is a gas shortage, the people that think they know better and care more say that all forms of motor racing should be stopped, that its a waste of fuel. They fail to realize that the amount of fuel used in racing (less that 1/10 of 1%) is so small that a total racing ban would be inconsequential.

These high end luxury store us such a small portion of the total electricity that them shutting down completely, which people with class envy would love to see, would make such a small difference it would not be noticeable.

And this type of excuse is exactly why we're faced with such a wasteful culture. No single person can make a difference, so I don't need to do my part.   

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 8557
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:49 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 38):

These high end luxury store us such a small portion of the total electricity that them shutting down completely, which people with class envy would love to see, would make such a small difference it would not be noticeable.

That would be all well and good, except that there's hardly any manifest class envy in this country. Japanese are concerned with fairness, sticking with the crowd, and the like, not what other people make.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 33):
I've addressed that multiple times and it is very simple: if this policy really is going to be bad for business, they should change it.

Well that's the whole point here - it's obviously bad for business on the PR front, and does not actually contribute to additional sales by any reasonable measure to boot. Competitors cited in the article like Tiffany, et al, obviously understand the situation and have adjusted their policies as such. Continuing these policies in the mentioned conditions when all signs point to "stop" only leaves them looking badly managed, or worse, as selfish jerks. Take your pick.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:34 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 35):
This is causing a windfall effect whereby the price of oil for everyone else goes up, the environment is damaged, and there is a potential shortage of oil for use by "necessary" things.

As long as they pay for the oil, it doesn't really matter what I or anyone else believes is necessary.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 35):
Based on what I've read of your posts in other threads, there is NO way you would support increasing government regulation on just about anything.

If the situation really is that dire, the government could pass an official rationing plan, with strings attached. I'd only support such a plan if it includes a) approval and funding for complete and quick replacement of the lost power capacity, b) a plan to purchase or generate more power to alleviate the shortfall in a timely manner and c) a hard expiration date.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 40):
Well that's the whole point here - it's obviously bad for business on the PR front, and does not actually contribute to additional sales by any reasonable measure to boot.

Their accountants better get on that.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 2967
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:05 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):
As long as they pay for the oil, it doesn't really matter what I or anyone else believes is necessary.

And therein lies the problem with unbridled free-market capitalism. There's no accountability, nor any moral or ethical responsibility. The only power is the almighty dollar. What a great time and place we live in, where the only thing that matters is whether an entity (be it a corporation or individual) can make more money, while royally f***ing over everyone else. What ever happened to personal responsibility? Greedy people, who don't think about what their actions will do to others (and think similarly to you, I might add), threw it away, all to make a buck.   

Simply because what they are doing is within legal bounds means that everyone should just go on about their business and be ok with it, and any attempts to stop it through legal channels are watered down and rife with caveats and restrictions?    No freaking thank you.

What a sad thought it is think about a world run by people and entities who don't give a single solitary shit about anyone but themselves. Then again, I'm hardly surprised that people like that don't give a single solitary shit about the environment, either. It doesn't fit into their world view. Environmental degradation leading to resource scarcity is the elephant in the room that's more convenient to ignore than change the paradigm to deal with.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:36 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 42):
There's no accountability, nor any moral or ethical responsibility. The only power is the almighty dollar. What a great time and place we live in, where the only thing that matters is whether an entity (be it a corporation or individual) can make more money, while royally f***ing over everyone else.

That is the beauty of capitalism. Gordon Gekko was right. Everyone looks out for themselves and everyone can succeed.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 42):
Simply because what they are doing is within legal bounds means that everyone should just go on about their business and be ok with it, and any attempts to stop it through legal channels are watered down and rife with caveats and restrictions?

Absolutely.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 42):
What a sad thought it is think about a world run by people and entities who don't give a single solitary shit about anyone but themselves.

Then think again, because greed is a wonderful thing. Greed has driven every single improvement mankind has ever made, ever since someone sharpened a stick so they could kill a larger mammoth and get more meat. The constant desire for something more than we have now is the force that moved man out of the cave, across the oceans, into the skies, and across the solar system. Greed us what led us into a world that we could cross in a matter of hours, and it led us to a world where information flies from continent to continent almost instantly in a never ending stream. Every great achievement can be attributed to someone's greed somewhere.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 42):
Environmental degradation leading to resource scarcity is the elephant in the room that's more convenient to ignore than change the paradigm to deal with.

Greed will lead mankind over that hurdle as well. Markets work. And greed will lead to innovation, innovation will lead to investment, and investment will lead to prosperity.

Eventually the markets and their participants may determine that resource scarcity is a problem. And the rewards for solving such a problem will be so immense that they cannot be ignored.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 2967
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:33 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):

   What a depressingly warped world view you have. Equating innovation with greed. The difference between what you're describing as greed and I'm calling innovation is the intent behind the development. There's a logical fallacy in your argument that all innovation is driving by selfish desire. If I create something new and great, and refuse to share it with you, that's greed. If I, through the natural course of human ingenuity, develop this new "thing," and it becomes available for everyone, I'm not greedy for developing it. I'm not selfish for creating something new. I agree that the desire for more/better has driven mankind to the point its at now, and will continue to do so. What I vehemently disagree with is the notion that all that drive is a result of selfishness (which is a necessary component of greed).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
Markets work.

Markets work with proper regulation. Unbridled free-market capitalism is doomed to fail as fast as any other form of economy because of greed. It may work in theory, but that's about the extent of its success.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
Eventually the markets and their participants may determine that resource scarcity is a problem.

Humans are inherently short-sighted. Couple that with the inherently crippling nature of resource scarcity, and you've got a tailor-made disaster on your hands. We can be the most innovative chunks of carbon in the universe, but without resources with which to be innovative, the innovations are irrelevant in practice. For just about anything else, you'd be right, but we have a finite amount of resources at our disposal. And from our track record, it sure doesn't look like we've learned much about conservation.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:46 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 44):
If I create something new and great, and refuse to share it with you, that's greed.

If you create something new and great and share it with me for a price, that's greed too.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 44):
What I vehemently disagree with is the notion that all that drive is a result of selfishness (which is a necessary component of greed).

And that is where you are wrong. Every piece of innovation and development is because we wanted something more than we have now.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 44):
Markets work with proper regulation.

They need some regulation, but often not as much as some people think.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 44):
Couple that with the inherently crippling nature of resource scarcity, and you've got a tailor-made disaster on your hands.

Resource scarcity does not happen overnight, especially if you are talking about oil. And really it's more like a tailor made opportunity.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 44):
We can be the most innovative chunks of carbon in the universe, but without resources with which to be innovative, the innovations are irrelevant in practice.

A situation in which we find new resources. Or make different resources.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 8557
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:47 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 45):
And that is where you are wrong. Every piece of innovation and development is because we wanted something more than we have now.

Curiosity and wonder were behind many tinkering innovations and early inventions. The drive for profiting from them did not come until later.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Flighty
Posts: 7715
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:54 pm

To the people saying they "paid for" the power... did they also pay the damages for the radiation at Fukushima? It seems to me there was a human cost there. This is about more than money.

Also, when there is a shortage, that isn't about money either. It is about good citizenship. Don't water your lawn in a drought.

There are many localities that impose a surcharge on energy usage and water usage according to social goals. What is "right" is defined by a society, not by money.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12422
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:01 pm

Probably one reason for the actions of some of these high-end shops is that I suspect they have had a major drop off in business since the tsunami/nuke disaster and desperate for customers.

The lack of electrical power in Japan, especially in and around Tokyo, will be a problem for years, with some caps for the foreseeable future. That means major and permanent changes as to use of power, including severe regulation to limit unnecessary electricity use so it can be available for manufacturing critical in the recovery in the disaster. There has been some recent talk in the media that the Japanese government may take over the Tokyo Power Company or major parts of it due to the Fukishima nuke power plant disaster.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Luxury Retailers In Tokyo Are Heartless Jerks

Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:40 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 46):
Curiosity and wonder were behind many tinkering innovations and early inventions.

Greed for knowledge. Like I said, they want something more than they had before.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 47):
To the people saying they "paid for" the power... did they also pay the damages for the radiation at Fukushima?

Whatever costs the power company incurred after the disaster (the word is used a bit loosely here) will have to be passed on to customers in some manner, so yes.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 47):
What is "right" is defined by a society, not by money.

That is the exact wrong way to go about things.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 48):
The lack of electrical power in Japan, especially in and around Tokyo, will be a problem for years, with some caps for the foreseeable future.

The Japanese who are considered some of the most efficient and hard working people in the world cannot build themselves a powerplant in a reasonable amount of time?
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: B777LRF, mmo and 6 guests