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Aaron747
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Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:10 pm

Something I've been hearing a lot about recently, encapsulated by this NY Times article over the weekend:

"Young college graduates working multiple jobs is a natural consequence of a bad labor market and having, on average, $20,000 worth of student loans to pay off," said Carl E. Van Horn, director of the John J. Heldrich Center for Workforce Development at Rutgers.

Or maybe it's a consequence of having worthless degrees like Latin American studies or journalism. Universities seem to be setting unrealistic expectations for students by offering all kinds of crap that will lead to purported jobs in the future.

An entry-level salary often doesn't go very far these days. According to a study by the Heldrich Center, the median starting salary for those who graduated from four-year degree programs in 2009 and 2010 was $27,000, down from $30,000 for those who graduated in 2006 to 2008, before the recession. (Try living on $27,000 a year - before taxes - in a city like New York, Washington or Chicago.)

Maybe these folks shouldn't be living in places like that? I wonder if that has occurred to anyone. To solve the problem of poor employment prospects, young people need to be prepared to move, period. A friend of my brother's recently returned from four years in the Peace Corps in Mozambique and comes from a good family with excellent connections in the SF Bay Area. Though some of these connections helped him get interviews, his degree was in English and he had no job offers after more than 100 job interviews. He expanded his search nationwide and wound up taking a decent job in DC. Recent grads who want to stay put are in for a rude awakening.

So a couple problems here - shouldn't universities be offering only degree programs that will actually lead to real jobs? And shouldn't young people be taught by someone that hobbies like website creation are only going to lead to money if the work they do provide something that is in real need? The reason the woman in the article can get extra income from babysitting is that its a service actually in need.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...i?f=/c/a/2011/07/02/BU091K2MTO.DTL
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tz757300
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:19 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
shouldn't universities be offering only degree programs that will actually lead to real jobs?

No, not at all. There will always be a market for every major, more so a market for people who generally got a higher education. Example, you mentioned journalism. Do you not think there isn't a "real job" for people who get those types of degrees? What about people you hear doing the local/national news or a newspaper? No journalism = no news.

I do realize that certain majors will have a much smaller job market, such as aforementioned Latin American studies, but if it makes someone happy by learning about what they love to learn about and trying to work with it, why blame them and why blame the institution by offering a major that people want to learn more about?

By the way, what is your definition of a real job?
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weebie
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:26 pm

The US economy is a sh*tbox that is the real problem here. As for Americans they are not sophisticated enough to become expats overseas hence why very few move abroad. It doesn't matter what degree you do having a degree is all about showing that you can committ and complete something and at the very least have reasonable intelligence.

America will go the way in which degree professionals will be even with skilled professionals....perhaps American kids should take up a trade? It's not the universities fault that so many people want to go to school (whether it's worth it or not) they need to find suitable places for the demand (isn't that how America's capitalism system works?)
 
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:34 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Or maybe it's a consequence of having worthless degrees like Latin American studies or journalism.

There is nothing worthless about those degrees.

What IS worthless is the expectation of earning $100,000/year after graduating with a degree in, say, Music Industry.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
So a couple problems here - shouldn't universities be offering only degree programs that will actually lead to real jobs?

Absolutely not, and I'm honestly a bit amazed you asked that question.

It's not universities' responsibility to determine what a student should major in, nor is it their responsibility to ensure said student gets a good-paying job straight out of college.

If you want to do something badly enough, you'll find a way.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
And shouldn't young people be taught by someone that hobbies like website creation are only going to lead to money if the work they do provide something that is in real need?

Far as I know, that's exactly what "hobby" is. Something you enjoy doing that doesn't necessarily make you money - or rather that you don't do specifically for money.

Most of what you asked about would fall under parents' and students' responsibilities, not universities'.
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BMI727
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:46 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
So a couple problems here - shouldn't universities be offering only degree programs that will actually lead to real jobs?

No for the simple reason that universities get paid good money to give out those worthless degrees.

Quoting tz757300 (Reply 1):
but if it makes someone happy by learning about what they love to learn about and trying to work with it, why blame them and why blame the institution by offering a major that people want to learn more about?

Because they are throwing away an awful lot of money so they can work at Macy's alongside college dropouts. It's a dumb thing to do from a financial standpoint, so I don't especially sympathize with people who will pay that much and go into that much debt for what is, in essence, a hobby.

Quoting weebie (Reply 2):
(isn't that how America's capitalism system works?)

Precisely. If you are among many people with a skill that is not in demand this is what happens. And they put themselves in that position.
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Aaron747
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:51 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):
Something you enjoy doing that doesn't necessarily make you money - or rather that you don't do specifically for money.

Trouble is at least three of the four gigs mentioned in the article for the first example are at best hobbies. Stringing together an income as such doesn't seem to be a very bright move.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):

Absolutely not, and I'm honestly a bit amazed you asked that question.

It's a relevant question in times like these, especially where my home state is cutting university budgets to the tune of billions of dollars per annum and trying to determine what is worth saving.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):
What IS worthless is the expectation of earning $100,000/year after graduating with a degree in, say, Music Industry.

Nobody is going to earn money like that off the bat in anything unless they have exceptional skills, qualifications, connections or likely a combination of all three.

Quoting tz757300 (Reply 1):

By the way, what is your definition of a real job?

A job that pays enough to cover expenses, pay down student debt, and save.

Quoting weebie (Reply 2):
As for Americans they are not sophisticated enough to become expats overseas hence why very few move abroad.

Wow, ouch. I would tend to agree that very few move abroad however. The only Americans I know locally in Japan are either academics who came for like jobs here, or people with specialized skills who work for Japanese corporations and have been transferred for further OJT. The remainder are simply here because of Japanese spouses. The majority of expats here by choice are from the UK, Canada, and Australia. It's also easier for them to get visas.

Quoting tz757300 (Reply 1):
I do realize that certain majors will have a much smaller job market, such as aforementioned Latin American studies, but if it makes someone happy by learning about what they love to learn about and trying to work with it, why blame them and why blame the institution by offering a major that people want to learn more about?

Because they can pretty much get the same education by reading the same material on their own time, while doing work that has discernible economic value. Makes sense to me. There are a lot of people out there with university equivalent educations in things that they love that have come from self study.
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sw733
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:58 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Or maybe it's a consequence of having worthless degrees like Latin American studies or journalism.

Oh jeez. Yeah, lets not have any experts on Latin America, which dominates the immediate area around the US. Smart...

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):

What IS worthless is the expectation of earning $100,000/year after graduating with a degree in, say, Music Industry.

I would agree with this. Look at teachers...most people go to school for Education knowing that teachers don't get paid well for the most part. People who major in things like History, Classics, etc. need to realize that they won't start out (or may never at all) making $100k/year. That doesn't mean they should not be able to study those things...the expectations just need to be more realistic.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
shouldn't universities be offering only degree programs that will actually lead to real jobs?

Who in the heck are you to determine what a "real job" is? I know people who majored in Engineering who are unemployed, and people who majored in History making $75,000 per year (and I am 27...so we haven't been out of college too long). It takes more than just a piece of paper to be successful, thus you can be successful with any degree (or none at all).
 
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:01 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
Because they are throwing away an awful lot of money so they can work at Macy's alongside college dropouts.

So what? If they want to do that, who cares?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
so I don't especially sympathize with people who will pay that much and go into that much debt for what is, in essence, a hobby.

Personally, I don't judge what is and isn't a hobby for other people. Hell, photography's a hobby for me, but if I were to go over to the Av Photo forum and state categorically that photography is not a profession, you can imagine how that would go over....

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5):
Because they can pretty much get the same education by reading the same material on their own time, while doing work that has discernible economic value. Makes sense to me. There are a lot of people out there with university equivalent educations in things that they love that have come from self study.

I could have learned everything I know about aerospace engineering from reading stuff on my own time, too.

Basically, that's saying that kids just shouldn't go to college.
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:33 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7):
I could have learned everything I know about aerospace engineering from reading stuff on my own time, too.

Basically, that's saying that kids just shouldn't go to college.

Aerospace engineering is a marketable field. Nobody's saying completing a college degree doesn't serve a larger purpose - I just don't want to hear all this griping about "I can't make enough to live in a hip area" when they chose what they got a degree in.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7):
So what? If they want to do that, who cares?

That's right, but they don't need to bitch about it for the same reason.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 6):
Who in the heck are you to determine what a "real job" is?

The folks in the article are the ones complaining about not being able to make a living. I'd say they've yet to find a "real job" if they can't cover their expenses and debt.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:40 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 8):
I just don't want to hear all this griping about "I can't make enough to live in a hip area" when they chose what they got a degree in.

There's a pretty simple solution to that - don't listen.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 8):
That's right, but they don't need to bitch about it for the same reason.

No one needs to bitch about anything at all.

I look at it this way - everyone complains about something that no one else wants to hear about.

I know I do....
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BMI727
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:41 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7):
So what? If they want to do that, who cares?

They can do it, but I'm not going to have much sympathy when they find no jobs in that field.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 8):
I just don't want to hear all this griping about "I can't make enough to live in a hip area" when they chose what they got a degree in.

  
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:42 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Or maybe it's a consequence of having worthless degrees like Latin American studies or journalism.

Neither of those degrees are worthless.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
So a couple problems here - shouldn't universities be offering only degree programs that will actually lead to real jobs?

The real jobs aren't out there - that's the real cause of the problem. Or rather, they're not out there in the quantity required to accept all the people coming out of university. That might be more true in certain fields than in others, but overall, the jobs just aren't there anymore. That's due to a number of factors: fewer jobs in the first place because of automation, outsourcing, or companies cutting back, people staying in their jobs longer because they can't afford to retire yet, jobs being available but at lower wages than they used to be, etc. And if there aren't enough jobs and there's not enough turnover, young people are going to find themselves unable to get work in their field (or any field). That's primarily a result of the economy, not of some failing of the educational system.

There are jobs available in every profession, including those that some might think are worthless like English or music - there might not be that many of them, but they're out there. And as long as they're out there, I won't begrudge any institution for offering a good program. What they could do is cap the number of degrees they'll put out in certain fields, so that the number of graduates more closely matches what the market is expected to require down the road.

The problem is that it's difficult to know with certainty what's going to be required. When I started my degree in aviation, the industry was looking bright. Two years in, it was looking really bright. And then we had the double whammy of a recession to kill off demand and an extension of the retirement age to kill off turnover (and even if you could see the recession coming, there was no reasonable way to see that rule change coming). And so my generation of pilots got screwed - stuff happens. I would say, though, that the market does correct itself, since the number of pilots going into training is WAY down, even as the industry is starting to pick up again. It'll probably go up eventually as people see being a pilot as something worth pursuing. The same will be true for other professions.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
And shouldn't young people be taught by someone that hobbies like website creation are only going to lead to money if the work they do provide something that is in real need?

Are you saying that website creation isn't going to be a skill that will be required in the internet age?   

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sw733
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:59 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 8):
The folks in the article

But YOU are the one questioning whether or not colleges should only offer programs that can get people "real jobs". So, who are you to decide what a real job is? Like I said, plenty of people have degrees that should get them "real jobs" but don't, and vice versa.
 
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:06 am

One extremely liberal article is the answer to the economies woes and graduate problems with finding jobs. It's comical to continue to see how you love to hide behind your flag from Japan and so favorable alienate yourself from the trying times of America. Well done again.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
So a couple problems here - shouldn't universities be offering only degree programs that will actually lead to real jobs?

We live in America, the land of free and the home of the brave.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
And shouldn't young people be taught by someone that hobbies like website creation are only going to lead to money if the work they do provide something that is in real need?

I can't make sense of this sentence.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
The reason the woman in the article can get extra income from babysitting is that its a service actually in need.

Why can't males make extra income babysitting? Is the article bias?
 
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:26 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
"Young college graduates working multiple jobs is a natural consequence of a bad labor market and having, on average, $20,000 worth of student loans to pay off,"



I am rolling on the floor laughing as I read this. I am 25 years old. I have a Bachelors Degree in Journalism, and cannot find ANY jobs that I can medically handle. I say that because I cannot work retail unless I can get a guarantee that I will not have to do any heavy lifting. I have a bad back.

Also...$20,000 in debt - I WISH. I owe over 100k in loans that I can't even afford to start paying or even make the minimum payments on.
 
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:27 am

Quoting fxramper (Reply 13):
One extremely liberal article is the answer to the economies woes and graduate problems with finding jobs.

I agree with the rest of your post, but what about the article is "liberal"? It just interviews 4 people who work multiple jobs, live in probably expensive areas, and don't have much money. I didn't get any sort of overriding editorial viewpoint out of it.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 12):
But YOU are the one questioning whether or not colleges should only offer programs that can get people "real jobs". So, who are you to decide what a real job is? Like I said, plenty of people have degrees that should get them "real jobs" but don't, and vice versa.

  

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
They can do it, but I'm not going to have much sympathy when they find no jobs in that field.

Cool. I'm sure that will keep them awake at night....  

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
And shouldn't young people be taught by someone that hobbies like website creation are only going to lead to money if the work they do provide something that is in real need?

Also, FYI, my roommate is a web designer who worked for himself for years, and made WAY more than I did as a full-time engineer.
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:49 am

There are plenty of worthless degrees if you don't know what to do with them. Like psychology, you can make $200,000 a year or minimum wage, depends if you have the drive to get a good job. I've seen people graduate with degrees having to work at restaurants. That's a problem I have observed, the jobs are there, for the most part, many people just lack the skills to get them.
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:02 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
And shouldn't young people be taught by someone that hobbies like website creation are only going to lead to money if the work they do provide something that is in real need?

There is plenty of money in it if you've got the skills and the expertise in the right areas. Everyone can do front-end development, but it's the heavy duty programming, that's where the dollars still exist in short-term contracts.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Are you saying that website creation isn't going to be a skill that will be required in the internet age?

On it's own - it's a saturated market. But tied with some other areas of expertise such as service-design, then you are doing better already.

It's not up to the university to provide courses that are relevant, but up to the candidates to select courses that are relevant - research will determine what is worthwhile and what isn't, especially if you are taking out huge loans and putting a lot of time into that learning.

[Edited 2011-07-03 19:04:34]
 
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:03 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
his degree was in English and he had no job offers after more than 100 job interviews.

An English degree will get you a job as an English teacher, and that's just about it. Did he want to be something other than an English teacher?

I have little sympathy for people who get degrees in something they figure will be easy or interesting, because "Hell, I speak English - how hard can it be", or "Music is my hobby, so I'll major in that" without thinking about the job prospects. I nearly fell into that trap myself, and fought hard to avoid my daughter and my niece from taking useless degrees. I won with my daughter and was only partially successful with my niece.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):

It's not universities' responsibility to determine what a student should major in, nor is it their responsibility to ensure said student gets a good-paying job straight out of college.

No problem, if a university wants to offer courses in basket-weaving, and students (or their parents) are willing to pay for it, why not?

BUT not if it is a publicly funded university. We are living in times when government must learn to fund things selectively. Public-funded universities should be used to subsidize engineering, economics, business skills, computer programming, and so forth.

And I know that someone will say, "Well who is the government to select which ones should be funded or not". Well, that's their job! We supposedly elect our government to make choices for us. Choosing everything is the cowardly but wasteful choice.
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Aaron747
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:13 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 15):
Also, FYI, my roommate is a web designer who worked for himself for years, and made WAY more than I did as a full-time engineer.

Well that was my point, just not well elucidated in the three minutes I spent posting. Making a website for a pinata salesman probably isn't going to pay what making a website for an accountant or other productive individual in need of a web designer would. I thought the example in the article was ridiculous.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 13):

We live in America, the land of free and the home of the brave.

Yeah well guess what buddy? Nothing is free. As we continue to point out, lots of degrees that don't lead to much are being provided at your expense in public universities. I'm suggesting it may be time in these lean budget times to rethink that. Instead of going to college for such things, people ought to learn something useful like plumbing or the electrician's trade.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 13):
It's comical to continue to see how you love to hide behind your flag from Japan and so favorable alienate yourself from the trying times of America. Well done again.

I use the flag because it's where I make my home, so what? I'm not alienated from anything. Times are tough here too but people tend to take responsibility for themselves to a far greater degree. I have a useless degree in city planning but have made up for it by partnering in a consulting business. It's called hard work.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 12):
Like I said, plenty of people have degrees that should get them "real jobs" but don't, and vice versa.

As I said, mobility would help on that score.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
The real jobs aren't out there - that's the real cause of the problem. Or rather, they're not out there in the quantity required to accept all the people coming out of university.

This is certainly a problem. All the more reason to be focusing on becoming marketable.
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Mir
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:06 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 19):
All the more reason to be focusing on becoming marketable.

Problem with that is that what's marketable when one is looking at colleges might not be five or six years down the road when one graduates.

-Mir
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:16 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):

Your spot on my friend

Attention college students...
The jobs are in the math, science, and IT fields.....
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:17 am

Last week I couldn't spell Inginear now I are one.  

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vikkyvik
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:14 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
BUT not if it is a publicly funded university.

That's a different story, but I didn't see that specified anywhere in the article or in the thread starter's post.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 19):
As we continue to point out, lots of degrees that don't lead to much are being provided at your expense in public universities.

Aaah, see now you're specifying, and this whole thing starts to make more sense.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 21):
Your spot on my friend

Attention college students...
The jobs are in the math, science, and IT fields.....

Clearly some English classes would be useful, however...... 
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sw733
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:16 am

Quoting fxramper (Reply 13):
It's comical to continue to see how you love to hide behind your flag from Japan

  ...a simple anti-Japan retailer thread won't erase all of the threads that clearly point out you're not the biggest fan of America...native or not.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 13):
Why can't males make extra income babysitting?

Unfortunately, it throws a "pervert" vibe...equal rights my ass.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
Like psychology, you can make $200,000 a year or minimum wage, depends if you have the drive to get a good job

Good point. I have two friends with MS degrees in Psych. One has been unemployed sine she graduated 2 years ago, and the other works for the Mayo Clinic making $125k per year.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
An English degree will get you a job as an English teacher, and that's just about it.

Not even close to being true

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 19):
As we continue to point out, lots of degrees that don't lead to much are being provided at your expense in public universities.

Honestly, as a US tax payer and a tax payer in the State of Kansas...that's fine by me. That I slightly, barely subsidize people who choose to major in stuff like History, Classics, Literature and the like...doesn't bother me. We need experts in that stuff too, lest they die out. I am scared to see a day when everyone knows everything about math, science, engineering and the like, and nobody knows anything about the great writers of our time, the history of our country or the history of the world for that matter. As a dual citizen and tax payer of Namibia too, I have no problem subsidizing the people going to public university there too, for the same reason.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 21):
Attention college students...
The jobs are in the math, science, and IT fields.....

Funny...my fiance has a BS and MS in economics and makes a bit more money working for the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City than I do with a double bachelors in Engineering and Mathematics, and an MS in Aerospace Engineering. Sure, there are jobs in those fields...but they aren't the only jobs out there. Not everyone is cut out to do math, science and IT...and there is absolutely nothing wrong with having no desire or passion to work in those relatively boring fields.
 
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:18 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
And shouldn't young people be taught by someone that hobbies like website creation are only going to lead to money if the work they do provide something that is in real need?

Ironically enough, Airliners.net doesn't really provide anything in real need. Yeah, it keeps us occupied and has great photos, but, even without Airliners.net our daily lives would still go on (just ask anyone who's been banned...lol)

So, without being in real need, and this site starting as a hobby, I'd say Johan made off pretty good when he sold his soul to DM.

Edited for spelling.

[Edited 2011-07-03 22:10:21]
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sw733
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:29 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 25):
Ironically enough, Airliners.net doesn't really provide anything in real need.
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 25):
this site starting as a hobby, I'd say Johan made off pretty good when he sold his sould to DM.
 
jetblast
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:38 am

Here's my take on it. I am currently finishing my associate's degree in Aviation Management at my school, and I am not sure if I will be continuing on afterward. I have a good start with two years of seniority at my airline and I don't intend to leave solely for the purpose of continuing school. If I already have a relatively steady job (compared to what other people my age are working, at least) why would I leave if I don't know if another one will be there when I get back?

Neither of my parents are college grads but have done very well for themselves in the aviation industry. Dad started fueling airplanes 20-some-odd years ago and is now the station manager for the same company at one of their largest operations, and Mom worked for US until she was furloughed and became a teacher. Regardless, they did not push me to work in the industry, it was of my own doing. If I wanted to make bundles of money and have all kinds of luxuries I would choose to work elsewhere. The problem with my generation is that many people seem to think that no matter where they go, the money and lush lifestyle will follow. A friend of mine graduated from her four-year program a year or so ago and has yet to find a job (and don't even mention the student loans). Why would I want to do that?

I'm quite happy with my lifestyle even if I am not a straight-A student with a Doctorate in my future, I get to travel around the world for a pretty inexpensive rate and as a result have had experiences many other people my age have not (trying to find which hotel shuttle was mine at Narita, for instance; when I don't speak any Japanese). I suppose that makes up for the lack of a massive paycheck...
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Aaron747
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:53 am

Quoting sw733 (Reply 24):
clearly point out you're not the biggest fan of America...native or not

Not sure how that's relevant. All citizens have a right to comment on their nation and its state of affairs. If I never paid taxes or lived there, or cut off all ties to the country or whatever, that would be another matter.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 25):
So, without being in real need, and this site starting as a hobby, I'd say Johan made off pretty good when he sold his sould to DM.

Obviously the service provided by this site filled an unmet need. Not so sure about customized pinatas.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 24):
Honestly, as a US tax payer and a tax payer in the State of Kansas...that's fine by me

The great state of Kansas obviously finds itself with different fiscal challenges than where these students went to school. CA, NY, IL, etc are in a completely different league as far as the issues faced by public higher education.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 23):
Aaah, see now you're specifying, and this whole thing starts to make more sense.

I thought I made it clear in reply 5, my bad.
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Mir
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:05 am

Quoting sw733 (Reply 24):
Not everyone is cut out to do math, science and IT..

Not to mention that you can't have a nation of math, science and IT people. You need a certain number of English teachers, or historians, or musicians, or filmmakers, etc. And I see no problem with the government subsidizing education in those fields, so long as the number of students is reasonable.

-Mir
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TheCol
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:44 am

The big problem with North American grads these days is that they are out of touch with the global economy of the 21st century. The unfortunate reality is that the United States is no longer king of the economic castle. The grandeur of working for large multi-national companies in New York, LA, DC, etc. is the thing of the past. If people really want to work, they better start looking offshore. Asia and the Middle East is where it's at. The only place in North America you can find plenty of work right now is Alberta, and that is mostly limited to tradesmen, engineers, and people skilled in logistics.

[Edited 2011-07-03 23:47:04]
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san747
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:38 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
He expanded his search nationwide and wound up taking a decent job in DC. Recent grads who want to stay put are in for a rude awakening.

Relocation is the name of the game today. I fully expect no more than 2 or 3 of my long-time friends since HS who have graduated to be here in SoCal after next year.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):

There is nothing worthless about those degrees.

What IS worthless is the expectation of earning $100,000/year after graduating with a degree in, say, Music Industry.

True. What degree you get is much less important than what you do with it. The biggest fallacy I see among my peers is the idea that whatever they major in/get their degree in absolutely is the only field they can subsequently go into.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):

If you want to do something badly enough, you'll find a way.

Precisely. My dad dedicated his life to making music, and even though he didn't complete college and get a degree, he's found a way to make music for over 40 years while making a good living- and now he currently teaches at the community college level.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
I nearly fell into that trap myself, and fought hard to avoid my daughter and my niece from taking useless degrees. I won with my daughter and was only partially successful with my niece.

May I ask, did you pay for their college education? If so, I can understand your sentiment. If not, with all due respect, they're adults and can choose their path for better or for worse.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 24):

Unfortunately, it throws a "pervert" vibe...equal rights my ass.

I've encountered that a lot. It's too bad because I get along well with kids and have been very highly praised by families who have let me babysit their kids in the past.

Unfortunately, as long as the media portrays the idea that men are the vast majority of child molesters/abusers, a man who wants to take care of someone else's kid will be viewed with suspicion.
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deltaownsall
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:35 am

Quoting weebie (Reply 2):
As for Americans they are not sophisticated enough to become expats overseas hence why very few move abroad.

Lol. I love how this somehow passes as a legitimate comment here. Btw, do I have to change my flag in order to post ignorant generalizations with no recourse? It does look like fun...
 
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:22 am

Quoting sw733 (Reply 24):
Not everyone is cut out to do math, science and IT...

Evidenced by America's test scores in the math and science field....your right
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ltbewr
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:46 pm

This is nothing new. Back when I graduated in 1977, another slow time for jobs for collage grads, I too had to juggle several part time jobs to survive although I had only very small amounts in student loans. I had been a commuting student, living at my parents home and continued to do so (too) long afterwards. The next spring I took a Paralegal course, lived just off campus, the program had a good placement programs so some short term assignments led to a job I would hold continuously for over 27 years. Even today, I appreciate the long-term benefits of a college degree as to my ability to think, write, manage my time and so on.

As to the present, I am very aware of the problems today. I have a niece who got her teaching certification last year just as school budgets were massively slashed here in NJ. She lives with a friend, works summers and part time at a restaurant and as a substitute teacher in a school system near where she lives. Hopefully, maybe even as soon as this fall, she will get the opportunity to get a perm job there. I have a nephew who graduated this year and while good at art and graphics, it is such a competitive field it means low pay and great difficulty in getting a job. They also both have many $1000's in student loans. That means they cannot afford health insurance or other important things.

Not to say it is all dark. My next door neighbor went to a good engineering school (NJIT), lived on campus (although only a few miles from home), had a nice amount of scholarship money and graduated with a degree in Electrical Engineering. He has a good paying job he started just after graduating, enough to buy (with a loan) a new car. He is also choosing to live at home, helping his disabled dad and family in general.
 
sw733
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:23 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 28):
The great state of Kansas obviously finds itself with different fiscal challenges than where these students went to school.

The State of Kansas is doing just as bad financially, as a percentage of state budget, as any other state in the country. Cuts are being made left and right, including to public higher education. Some majors at public universities in Kansas are being cut all together due to low enrollment...but personally I have no problem with my tax money going to those low enrollment degrees. The part of the bill I personally pay is so small...and there are so many other things that my tax dollars go to that are a lot less worthy in my opinion...that people majoring in Linguistics or Womens Studies are the least of my problems (though I do wish there were a Mens Studies...how awesome would that be?!?!)

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 33):
Evidenced by America's test scores in the math and science field....your right

Not just that...I didn't just mean they were not cut out academically, I moreso meant they were not cut out on an interest level. You have to have interest in what you are doing, otherwise you will not want to do it, or you will not do it well. If your passion is US History, you shouldn't have to spend your life in IT. However, you should have a realistic goal that you may or may not be successful with that History degree. Some people are, some people are not (i.e. - Wolf Blitzer has a History degree and makes god knows how much as a CNN anchor...an unofficial source I saw said $3 million/year).
 
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:02 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):
Most of what you asked about would fall under parents' and students' responsibilities, not universities'.

Agree 100%.

The decline in the economy mirrors the decline in the middle class which mirrors the decline in parenting.

Many children either have no role models or poor role models.

The kids that go on to lead good productive lives are the ones who can find good role models, hopefully ones they call mom or dad.

The mom or dad that will let junior/missy sign a huge loan so they can study in a low-value field is not doing themselves or their kids any favors.

In fact they are failing in their role as parents.

College is a terrible place to "find yourself".

If you need to grow up, you can do that a lot cheaper and in a lot better setting than college.

Junior/missy needed to have been given guidance a lot earlier than that to end up in the position of needing to find themselves in college.

Somehow we've let our public schools become about popularity contests and socialization instead of learning.

Our better students get tagged with names like nerd and geek while we praise the cheerleaders and the jocks.

Its no surprise to me that we've moved away from being a nation of people who produce stuff to a nation of people who consume stuff.

Most parents have left kids to their own devices, and what we have now is a direct product of that.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 34):
Even today, I appreciate the long-term benefits of a college degree as to my ability to think, write, manage my time and so on.

Well said.
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:32 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 30):
The big problem with North American grads these days is that they are out of touch with the global economy of the 21st century. The unfortunate reality is that the United States is no longer king of the economic castle. The grandeur of working for large multi-national companies in New York, LA, DC, etc. is the thing of the past. If people really want to work, they better start looking offshore. Asia and the Middle East is where it's at. The only place in North America you can find plenty of work right now is Alberta, and that is mostly limited to tradesmen, engineers, and people skilled in logistics.


This.
 
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:38 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 34):
I have a niece who got her teaching certification last year just as school budgets were massively slashed here in NJ

Have her look west.. A friend of my fiancee got a teaching job offer after a phone interview (she lives in MI, so in person interview was out of the question), making $32-40k per the job posting. Only downside, it's on the Indian Reservation... She didn't take it.

People never think much of ND, but we are one of the few states where there are more jobs than qualified applicants....
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:44 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Maybe these folks shouldn't be living in places like that? I wonder if that has occurred to anyone.

For a variety of reasons, people will be drawn to those places for the foreseeable future. Obviously, people should be doing their homework with respect to cost of living and such. However, I think we can all agree that a lot of young people really don't care what the cost of living is like as long as they can live in LA, New York, or Washington. I suppose it's a good thought in theory, but I just don't see it working itself out in practice.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
young people need to be prepared to move, period.

Yes, for the most part, you want to broaden your horizons in order to have the greatest success in finding a job, but sometimes it really is unrealistic for some people to move.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
shouldn't universities be offering only degree programs that will actually lead to real jobs?

But the question remains: who decides what is a "real job"?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
No for the simple reason that universities get paid good money to give out those worthless degrees.

And I take it that you are the arbiter of what is, and is not, a worthless degree?

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7):
So what? If they want to do that, who cares?

  

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
They can do it, but I'm not going to have much sympathy when they find no jobs in that field.

The vast majority of people aren't asking for your sympathy.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 13):
One extremely liberal article is the answer to the economies woes and graduate problems with finding jobs. It's comical to continue to see how you love to hide behind your flag from Japan and so favorable alienate yourself from the trying times of America. Well done again.

Why is it liberal? Because it was posted on a San Francisco website, or because it was published in The New York Times? Either way, it's not an extremely liberal article. That said, there really is no need for this personal attack as it is completely irrelevant to the top at hand. If you have an issue with Aaron, fine, but we're discussing American grads, not whether he is hiding behind a Japanese flag. Besides, in case you missed it, there are trying times pretty much everywhere today, including in Japan.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 13):
We live in America, the land of free and the home of the brave.

 
Quoting fxramper (Reply 13):
I can't make sense of this sentence.

Even without the 's' at the end of provide, it really isn't a difficult sentence to understand.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 24):
Quoting fxramper (Reply 13): It's comical to continue to see how you love to hide behind your flag from Japan
  ...a simple anti-Japan retailer thread won't erase all of the threads that clearly point out you're not the biggest fan of America...native or not.

Off topic, but I don't exactly see how Aaron is being anti-American by posting this. There is a tendency in this country to think that any criticism of the US is, by its very nature, anti-American. That is far from the truth. Frankly, to love your country means to understand that it is not perfect, and that sometimes you must criticize certain policies in the hope that your Country will improve.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 24):
Unfortunately, it throws a "pervert" vibe...equal rights my ass.

You're not seriously suggesting that men have fewer rights than women are you? The popular perception that most (according to some people all) pedophiles are men is ludicrous, and I find it offensive. However, when women in this country are still earning, on average, roughly 70 cents for every dollar that men earn, we shouldn't be complaining about our "equal rights".

Quoting sw733 (Reply 24):
Not even close to being true

Agreed. Not even remotely close.

Quoting san747 (Reply 31):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18): I nearly fell into that trap myself, and fought hard to avoid my daughter and my niece from taking useless degrees. I won with my daughter and was only partially successful with my niece.May I ask, did you pay for their college education? If so, I can understand your sentiment. If not, with all due respect, they're adults and can choose their path for better or for worse.

   If you paid for their education, then I can agree that your input is to be expected. However, if you did not pay for their education, it really is not your place to force them into obtaining a degree in a field that you term to be useful. They are adults, and if they want to major in something "useless", they should be allowed to do so.
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:15 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 35):
Some majors at public universities in Kansas are being cut all together due to low enrollment...but personally I have no problem with my tax money going to those low enrollment degrees.

This depends on how you look at public university education I suppose. In my view it is basically a contract with society. Everyone has paid for your education in large part, and as such one has an obligation to do something that contributes economically to repay the debt. Stringing together a couple of web jobs (including pinata sales) does not strike me as the best one can muster. I would rather people who want to study such stuff on the public dime learn a trade and provide a real service to others.
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shamrock137
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:43 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
So a couple problems here - shouldn't universities be offering only degree programs that will actually lead to real jobs?

This being an aviation site, consider this scenario. Daniel Webster College in New Hampshire was formally one of the best aviation schools in the country. They had an extremely good program and graduates were usually able to find flying jobs relatively soon after graduation. Airlines were known to bend the advertised minimums for applicants who graduated from the school. The program was making the school money and bringing in many students. Yet in 2009 a company called ESI bought the school, and soon after abolished the program. Their reasoning being that pilots don't make enough money upon graduation, and that it was unfair to be sending these graduates out into the world, unable to repay their loans, even though they were doing something they loved to do. However, should it really be up to schools to tell students what is worth learning? Should they say "I'm sorry, your passion wont make you enough money after you graduate. Here, study nursing instead, they are paid well."

As someone who just graduated with an aviation degree and just finished a 70 hour workweek between my two jobs working near minimum wage for two regional airlines based in the Northeast, I can understand why people think something needs to be done, and while I agree the costs of school are excessive, I don't agree with putting restrictions on what degrees a school offers solely based on perceived value of the degree. I personally plan on using my degree to the best of my ability and advancing in the aviation industry, but I realize its going to take time before I see significant return on my investment.
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steeler83
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:56 am

Please... got my MA in geography and planning last year, and I make FAR less than $27k before taxes. For the record, I really do not think I'm in a useless field. City planning is done primarily by elected officials for the most part; by the bureaucratic boobs who think they know everything yet know nothing.

Frankly, I think the field of regional planning could be much better if the politicians would just stay the hell out away from that field! They screwed up this country enough; do they really have to interfere and do something they're not at all qualified for? We planners have visions. Do us a favor and step aside, and let us make our visions into reality!

That aside, this job market, coupled with the fact that I am a measily caregiver for the elderly, is the main reason why I suffer from depression.

Also for the record, I just received rejection number 406 from the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission. I've sent my resume to places ranging from Connecticut to Seattle. I could be the best thing to happen to any company or organization and yet they all pursue candidates who "better suit their needs." I'm not at all qualified to be a caregiver and yet I add considerable value to the assisted living community I work for, based on co-workers, supervisors, and residents and their families. Just imagine if I were employed within my field and actually used my strengths...
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:15 am

Quoting shamrock137 (Reply 41):
Yet in 2009 a company called ESI bought the school, and soon after abolished the program. Their reasoning being that pilots don't make enough money upon graduation, and that it was unfair to be sending these graduates out into the world, unable to repay their loans, even though they were doing something they loved to do. However, should it really be up to schools to tell students what is worth learning? Should they say "I'm sorry, your passion wont make you enough money after you graduate. Here, study nursing instead, they are paid well."

This is a good example of what can happen, but clearly that decision was made not because of the field itself but because the new owners thought those students couldn't make enough money for them. This is a somewhat different dilemma than that faced by public institutions.

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 42):
For the record, I really do not think I'm in a useless field. City planning is done primarily by elected officials for the most part; by the bureaucratic boobs who think they know everything yet know nothing.

I thought the field had inherent value as well, particularly since my major focused on the economic vitalization aspect of the city/developer relationship. Then I started interning and saw that personal grudges determined the course of planning commission proceedings in San Francisco and understood I needed to change fields quickly if I intended to avoid a heart attack by 30.

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 42):
We planners have visions. Do us a favor and step aside, and let us make our visions into reality!

That was my belief back in the day. Then reality reared its ugly head.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
sw733
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:19 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 40):
I would rather people who want to study such stuff on the public dime learn a trade and provide a real service to others.

I guess I still fail to see what a "real service" might be. What about those people who majored in Economics and ran banks? They bare some (more than some) of the responsibility of putting the US in the position it is in now, and yet most people, a few years ago (and still, most likely) would have seen them as providing a "real service". Or what about the person who majors in early childhood development at a public university in Kansas, like my fiance's best friend, and then spends her time making very, very little money but helping underprivileged, mentally challenged chrildren get through each day the best they can. What is a "real service"? I still say she (BA - Human Development & Family Life) is providing more of a "real service" than my fiance or I (BS - Economics, MS - Economics for her; BS - Aero Engineering, MS - Aero Engineering for me).

It all matters how you look at it. I still say I have no problem with my tax dollars going to majors like Human Development and Family Life, because I know a few people who are doing great things with the major.
 
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:35 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 39):
If you paid for their education, then I can agree that your input is to be expected. However, if you did not pay for their education, it really is not your place to force them into obtaining a degree in a field that you term to be useful. They are adults, and if they want to major in something "useless", they should be allowed to do so.

1) Given that most student loans in the US are federally guaranteed, all of us US taxpayers should be concerned.

2) How many decisions involving tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars should we leave up to eighteen year old "adults"?

They might find themselves in the situation similar to the one described in reply 14: over $100k in loans with no means for them to even make the first payment.
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:27 am

Quoting weebie (Reply 2):
As for Americans they are not sophisticated enough to become expats overseas hence why very few move abroad.

It's pretty well known in my trade that the ones going overseas are the ones who aren't really qualified to work at home. The only difference between the Filipino engineers who do the heavy lifting and the "managers" who make 3 times more is that the managers can write a letter in proper English.
 
us330
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:27 am

Journalism/communications is pretty darn close to being worthless, considering that not having a degree in journalism is not a barrier from entering the field of news--you can major in whatever you want in college and still be a journalist provided that you were involved with the campus newspaper or another publication while in school. None of the ivies have undergraduate journalism programs, but that doesn't preclude talented writers from becoming journalists--I have friends who write for several internationally well-known and prestigious publications, none of whom majored in journalism.
 
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:48 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 39):
If you paid for their education, then I can agree that your input is to be expected. However, if you did not pay for their education, it really is not your place to force them into obtaining a degree in a field that you term to be useful. They are adults, and if they want to major in something "useless", they should be allowed to do so.

First of all, the idea of student loans is repugnant to me. I think anyone who does it is a fool. I worked my way through my BA (and yes, that restricted me to state universities), then worked for a few years and worked my way through my Masters. I paid for the bulk of my daughter's education but she worked for a good chunk of it too. It requires sweat and maybe you can't afford to go to MIT (unless you have a scholarship), but I am a firm believer in getting an education you can afford.

By the way, have you ever thought about the reasons why the price of higher education is increasing even faster than healthcare is all the federally guaranteed loans out there is flooding the market and universities are raising their prices because they know the money's there? If people (or their parents) were paying for their own educations without any recourse to such loans, I guarantee you college prices would be much lower.

Secondly, it is our duty as parents and (in the case of my niece) older relatives to provide guidance to our kids. They don't know better. Modern society fills them with a bunch of bullcrap about "being yourself" and "doing what you want", and that is how we get 23 year-olds with degrees in French Literature, $100K or more in debt, and no useful skills. Sorry, but being able to explain the significance of Moliere to the French Revolution doesn't count for a hill of beans.
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san747
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RE: Young American Grads Forced To Juggle Jobs

Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:04 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 45):

2) How many decisions involving tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars should we leave up to eighteen year old "adults"?

As long as 18 years old is the age of legal adulthood, ALL of them. An adult is an adult. I was forced to sign up for Selective Service, I vote, I drive a car, I drink (I'm 23), and I attend school and work a job. You will not tell me I can't make decisions about money for school unless I'm a minor or the money is coming DIRECTLY from you.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 48):
Modern society fills them with a bunch of bullcrap about "being yourself" and "doing what you want",

Why is it bullcrap? Why is doing something with your life you enjoy something to be looked down on? We only get one life buddy, I wouldn't mind enjoying it, thank you very much.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 48):
and that is how we get 23 year-olds with degrees in French Literature, $100K or more in debt, and no useful skills.

Great. They're adults, so they are responsible for their decision, not you. You talk about responsibility- let these kids take responsibility for their bad decisions then. All you're doing by telling kids what they should or should not do in college is baby them and make them LESS prepared to make decisions and be functioning, independent adults.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 48):
Sorry, but being able to explain the significance of Moliere to the French Revolution doesn't count for a hill of beans.

Maybe, but just like you had to learn this several decades ago, so will our generation. We're smarter than you think, give us some credit.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 48):
I worked my way through my BA (and yes, that restricted me to state universities), then worked for a few years and worked my way through my Masters. I paid for the bulk of my daughter's education but she worked for a good chunk of it too.

That's awesome. Nothing wrong with that at all! I'm doing the same, though I do have some loan debt (much lower than the average student, ~$3k). Yes, many students take out loans and have parent's help paying for school, but that doesn't mean we're lazy or biting off more than we can chew.
Scotty doesn't know...

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