ALTF4
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Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:57 pm

Over the past day or two, there has been some very disturbing news released regarding the Atlanta public school system. Close to 200 educators, and an alarming number of principles, participated in actively cheating and altering student's test scores in order to make the district score higher on the overall CRCT (placement tests) scores.

A few gems quoted from the AJC article cited below:

Quote:
“If anyone asks you anything about this just tell them you don’t know,” the report said Salters said. He told teachers to “just stick to the story and it will all go away.”
Quote:
Principal Gwendolyn Benton, who has since left, obstructed the investigation, too, the report said, when she threatened teachers by saying she would “sue them out the ass” if they “slandered” her to the GBI.
Quote:
Another told a teacher who saw tampering that if she did not “keep her mouth shut,” she would “be gone.”
Quote:
At Venetian Hills, a group of teachers and administrators who dubbed themselves “the chosen ones” convened to change answers in the afternoons or during makeup testing days, investigators found. Principal Clarietta Davis, a testing coordinator told investigators, wore gloves while erasing to avoid leaving fingerprints on answer sheets.

Here is the article: http://www.ajc.com/news/investigation-into-aps-cheating-1001375.html

So, do you trust your government to properly educate your kids? Do you trust people who are focused on advancing their career and getting honors and recognition while they claim to put your kid's future as their highest goal?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying all teachers or educators act like this. There are definitely some fantastic teachers out there who genuinely take interest in the kid's success. But it only takes one bad educator to poison the lot, as the article states. Teachers who would have not participated in the cheating scandal did so simply to protect their own job, or even their life.

I really, really, really hope the higher-ranking educators have the book thrown at them, with the maximum penalty allowed by law for lying to investigators, plus some other charges dealing with child endangerment, as these educators were knowingly and purposefully harming these children, by denying them the help they needed. Since the kids appeared to know the subjects they were being tested on, they did not get the additional help they would have. The teachers can probably be let off more lightly, though, since many of them were threatened. Still, that does not make their actions right.

Still, you know what befuddles me the most? People turn their noses at parents who see these problems but cannot afford private school, so turn to home education. I trust many, many parents more than these lying, deceitful, self-righteous, arrogant, and self-centered "educators" who we so willingly trust our children to. The last thing my parents would have done on my tests is alter my answers. They cared for me as a person - they loved me as their child - which is infinitely more than you can say for these "educators" who see your little Johnny as just one more statistic to manipulate.

I can't count how many people have tried to tell me that my parents did a great disservice to me by teaching me at home. One shining star of an example was a guy who was chatting with me before a meeting at work, and said (unaware of my background) that none of "those" kids have any chance at succeeding in life. I asked him what his college-age kid was up to, and he laughed and said he just got off the phone with him and he was asking for more money. I politely noted that I was home schooled and that we were sitting in the conference room of a fortune 100 company, and I was a year younger than his kid.

I hope each one of those principles is arrested, and if I wasn't gainfully employed, you could bet your last dollar I would try to be present for each one of those arrests to cheer. Like I said, throw the book at them. How dare they act as they did.

[Edited 2011-07-06 10:00:40]
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Superfly
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:15 pm

Considering all the focus to indoctrinate kids in to global warming / climate change and feminism, I'd say no.
This story is shocking but sadly, I am not surprised.

Quoting ALTF4 (Thread starter):
I trust many, many parents more than these lying, deceitful, self-righteous, arrogant, and self-centered "educators" who we so willingly trust our children to.

Not all teachers are like this but a lot of them are and it seems these kinds of teachers are increasing at an alarming rate.
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:21 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Thread starter):
So, do you trust your government to properly educate your kids?

Your question is wrong or poorly worded, however to give a simple answer:
Yes I trust the education that is being provided to my child by my community's state funded public schools.

There will always be people who do things improperly everywhere, both at public and private institutions, it does not mean that the institution or the product/service it provides is universally bad.

Tugg

[Edited 2011-07-06 10:27:29]
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:29 pm

After having a taste of both public and private schools, I will only send my kids to private schools, no matter the cost. The education I had at my private schools was rich, challenging, and thought provoking. I am very glad I never went to a public high school...the horror stories my friends have told me are shocking.
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:31 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 2):
There will always be people who do things improperly everywhere, both at public and private institutions, it does not mean that the institution of the product/service it provides is universally bad.

Of course there always will be. Yet, when it turns out that every level of administration and staff was involved in a massive cheating scandal, you can't cover that up. That's not like your plumber showing up with an expired license because he forgot to renew it the week before.

I'm sure there were plenty of people before this scandal was made public who thought very highly of the Atlanta public school system. So highly, in fact, that top administration was nationally recognized. You have to admit it is a bit unsettling, more than some little feeling you can simply brush aside, that this was going on for so long and has had such extensively damaging effects.

Quoting tugger (Reply 2):
Your question is wrong or poorly worded

Well, maybe I'm too dumb because I'm not government educated, but I don't see the issue with the question.
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:33 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Thread starter):
Over the past day or two, there

You really need to go read Freakonomics, They already covered this issue in Chicago.
The issue really has to do with all of these perfomance bases requirements being placed on schools.
When the school is in a disadvantaged postion (IE high number of free lunches (A measure of poverty), there is a disproportionate punishment to the teachers within that location due to external factors beyond their control. The kids don't impove on tests, because , 1 high number of parents just don't care. 2 high number of kids just don't care. So the teachers either get the school closed down due to issues beyond their control, or they fudge the numbers.

Fudging the numbers is one of the reasons I never supported the No Child left behind act as the teachers get punished for issues beyond their control.

The Public school system is the last line of defense for education. Parents that care about their Children's education in a disadvantaged area will have already gone to a Charter School or Private school.
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:47 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 4):
Of course there always will be. Yet, when it turns out that every level of administration and staff was involved in a massive cheating scandal, you can't cover that up. That's not like your plumber showing up with an expired license because he forgot to renew it the week before.

I'm sure there were plenty of people before this scandal was made public who thought very highly of the Atlanta public school system. So highly, in fact, that top administration was nationally recognized. You have to admit it is a bit unsettling, more than some little feeling you can simply brush aside, that this was going on for so long and has had such extensively damaging effects.

You will find schools that are lacking just like you will find home educators that are lacking. The key thing is are the parent involved in their child's education? The care and guidance that parents provide to their children are the key to whether they will do well in life. The fact that a school is doing this is is of course disturbing and it should never have happened.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 4):
Well, maybe I'm too dumb because I'm not government educated, but I don't see the issue with the question.

I see you are sensitive to the topic but I certainly did not imply you were dumb or say that you had a deficient education. The simple fact is that "the gub'ment" isn't educating my children. Teachers are and I am (and family and community). Teachers that I meet with regularly and discuss what is going on with the school, the class, and my child. Teachers that I know well enough to understand that do their best to provide my child a good education. Of course that is only part of the equation, actively involved parents are the most critical aspect of any child's education.

There is no "one best way" to educate a child (other than the aforementioned involvement of the parents). I am not picking sides here, I am not saying that home schooling is bad, but I am saying that public schooling is "not bad" just because it is publicly (i.e. via the state government) funded, that I trust the education that my children are receiving. And I trust it for good reason. You appear have your mind set on making a point. I am simply trying to answer your question.

Tugg

[Edited 2011-07-06 10:52:07]
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:49 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 5):
Parents that care about their Children's education in a disadvantaged area will have already gone to a Charter School or Private school.


A lot of people have been fooled by the Charter school movement. Many of them are just as poorly run and produce the same bad results as some public school. I should know I was a charter school teacher for 6 1/2 years and in that time I was saw all kinds of scams, including fudging numbers on enrollment to get more money. I saw money get paid out to contractors for services never provided and so on. The University that was chartering us was really in the business to make money. We paid them $22,000 a month for the use of their name and nothing else.

Charters Schools are very attractive on the primary grades because they are cheap to run and good result can be easy to get. Most charter high schools are disasters because a high school costs a lot to run and the needs of the students are a lot different. Everyone holds out the handful of Charters that are succeeding and saying look how great these schools are, but ignores the failing charters. Then the same media holds out the failing public schools and doesn't say a word about the ones who are getting things done.

Everyone wants to knock public schools and say they are broken. Yes some of them are, in my area, metro Detroit, some are failing badly. Detroit is a disaster and Highland Park is worse. The School district I teach in, Trenton, is doing just fine when it comes to academics. We are having problems due to reduction of students, because of the number of people leaving the area. Other districts in the area have good academic performance too. Everyone wants to fix all the public schools, but most of them are not broken. The problems are in urban and poor districts. The poorer the students the worse the problems are. I have heard that Detroit has a 50% illiteracy rate (Detroit Public Schools and National Disgrace on HDNet). When you have that kind of lack of education you are going to have children that come from homes where education isn't important. I have worked with teachers and administrators who have worked with teens and young adults in Detroit who have never been in school a day in their lives. Yes it is the law to be in school until you are 16, but if you never enroll they don't really know if you aren't there.
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ALTF4
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:54 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
I see you are sensitive to the topic but I certainly did not imply you were dumb or say that you had a deficient education.

No, sorry - it was a failed attempt at some sarcasm that the internet didn't catch.

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
The simple fact is that "the gub'ment" isn't educating my children.

Yet the school system is funded by taxes, regulated by government officials, run by government elected officials, and held accountable via government officials. At least it is in my state and county. That passes the looks, sounds, quacks, and smells test for me. Sure, the teachers themselves are the ones teaching, but is it not obvious that they are very limited in what they can do?

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
Their is no "one best way" to educate a child (other than the aforementioned involvement of the parents). I am not picking sides here, I am not saying that home schooling is bad, but I am saying that public schooling is "not bad", that I trust the education that my children are receiving. And I trust it for good reason. You appear have your mind set on making a point. I am simply trying to answer your question.

I think we agree. I'm a bit pissed off at the Atlanta public school system right now, for sure. I'm coming from the angle of "public schools are bad - but maybe not all of them are", you're coming from the side of "public schools are not bad - but maybe some of them are". In the end, I think we're both in the similar area of thinking, except I'm more obviously of the opinion that they shouldn't be trusted. The good thing is, the county I live in is not involved in the above-mentioned scandal, and the quality of education seems to be higher, with clear evidence pointing to that. Still - I just can't ignore the fact that issues like these really could be happening anywhere.
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:58 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 4):
Well, maybe I'm too dumb because I'm not government educated, but I don't see the issue with the question.


Your question is poorly worded because it is a leading question and it paints too broad of a stroke...all schools run by the government are bad. The issue at hand in Atlanta are about corruption and fraud, not about whether governments do a good job of teaching kids. There's corruption everywhere, private and public. So maybe your question would be more appropriate if you asked 'is there too much corruption in the Atlanta local government?'

By the way, I'm not sure what kind of an English education you received, but you misspelled the same word twice in your thread opener. Let me give you a hint...it starts with a P.

[Edited 2011-07-06 11:51:26]
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elmothehobo
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:59 pm

I trust them a whole lot more than many of the parents who are now homeschooling their children.

Such a glaring failure speaks more about the character of a few than the good of the vast majority of teachers.
 
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:08 pm

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 3):
I am very glad I never went to a public high school...the horror stories my friends have told me are shocking.

It very much depends on the district, the administrators, the teachers, the students, and the parents. I went to a good public school district, and I have zero complaints about my education.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
The University that was chartering us was really in the business to make money.

A business is a business is a business, whether it's a store, an autoshop, a university, whatever.

For example, I loathe the fact that universities give out honorary degrees to whomever, but I recognize that it brings attention (and therefore money) to said university.
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:12 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
lot of people have been fooled by the Charter school movement

That has been my concern as well, but in General, the public schools in poor neighborhoods are going to get the worst possible students as a measure of percentages overall. Some Public Schools in poor neighborhoods may excel due to bussing , or other external factors, but they suffer.

I got a public school education, and I value it, but my classmates and I were diversified and had a strong military presence among the parents.
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:12 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 8):
No, sorry - it was a failed attempt at some sarcasm that the internet didn't catch.

Ahh! OK , I gotcha, no problem.   

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 8):
Yet the school system is funded by taxes, regulated by government officials, run by government elected officials, and held accountable via government officials. At least it is in my state and county. That passes the looks, sounds, quacks, and smells test for me. Sure, the teachers themselves are the ones teaching, but is it not obvious that they are very limited in what they can do?

I think the big disconnect that we have nowadays in the USA is that "the government" is technically "the people". In the community I live in, the parents are VERY involved in what happens and how things are run in the schools. If there are changes or policies or funding issues that the community does not like "the government" is made aware, quickly, loudly. The community works like crazy to fix them or address them. The teachers will have the support of the community if they are good teachers and if they are not then we voice our displeasure and they are "encouraged" to move on. And of course that is a big part of the reason I choose to live where I do.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 8):
I think we agree.

I understand what you are saying, and Yes, I do agree with you. When it comes to my children I do not "trust" anyone beyond my wife and I for what is best. I trust people of course, but we watch, and listen, and talk, and make sure we know what is going on (as much as is possible) with our children. As you say you can't "just trust" things when it involves your child, you must keep involved and informed on what is going on and make informed decisions on what you feel is best. As Reagan said: "Trust but verify".

Tugg
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:13 pm

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 3):
I will only send my kids to private schools


That isn't an option for a lot of people regardless of cost. In many some areas (like Detroit) private schools are closing rapidly and have been for 10 years. I am amazed at the number of private schools that are now public charters. There just aren't enough private schools for the number of children out there. If you talk about private high schools there are even fewer and then usually only the best connected or brightest get in. Not every kid is a big wheel in the brain department or star athlete.

Another thing that some of you should know about Charter schools is that their boards are not openly elected, like a regular district wide school board. Also since they service one school, or small group of schools not usually in one town their board operations and meetings are often overlooked by the media and local tax payers. Even when I worked in a charter I was amazed at how many people in our community thought we were a private school. A lot of people think that charters are a private school. In Michigan and most other places, that I know of, they are funded by the tax payers. I saw things at board meetings for the charter that would never fly at public school. All of the board members were friends or relatives of the charter school management company. Not a one was a resident of the city our school was in. When we built a new building it was funny how the management company's owner had a brother who owned a construction firm who won the low bid contract, that later came in $800,000 over his bid. It was funny how a trustee of the board's husband (she was a family member of the management company owner) owned a lawn a garden firm that got our landscaping business and snow plowing contract. When his contract was up I told my buddy who does the same thing and he submitted a bid, which I know was lower than what we had been paying, because I paid the POs for the school (I did lots of things besides teach). Somehow my friend's bid turned out to be too high and the same person just kept doing the work. This kind of stuff may go on in big cities like Detroit, but in most schools this kind of thing would be noticed by the community and reported by the local press.
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:32 pm

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 10):
I trust them a whole lot more than many of the parents who are now homeschooling their children.

I think a lot of homeschoolers are doing a disservice to their kids. I recall a lot of homeschoolers enrolling kids in our charter school for 9th grade. Most of them made the Detroit Public Schools kids looks like rocket scientists. I think their parents didn't bothering teaching them anything they didn't want to learn. I know two other home school families and they do a great job and their kids are top performers academically. However both sets of parents are well educated and really care for their kids. I have met home school parents who didn't even graduate from high school. I don't get it. I have to have all kinds of education and then go back to get University level training every 4 years in order to keep my teaching certificate and to "be qualified" to teach high schoolers. However I could be a high school dropout and teach my children at home.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 11):
A business is a business is a business, whether it's a store, an autoshop, a university, whatever.


I know... I am an unapologetic capitalist, but a lot of people see the University name and automatically think it will be a stellar school. I met parents who thought we got college level curriculum from the University, but we got nothing other than the right to exist. Most of our students came from Detroit Public Schools and were WAY below grade level.
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ALTF4
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:47 pm

Quoting max999 (Reply 9):
but you misspelled the same word twice in your the thread opener.

Hey, what can I say, spelling never was my strong point.  
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:55 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 16):
Hey, what can I say, spelling never was my strong point.

I just blame that stuff on auto correcting feature on my smart phone. It makes more mistakes than it fixes....
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:59 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 17):
I just blame that stuff on auto correcting feature on my smart phone. It makes more mistakes than it fixes....

Well, his point is moot anyway - I just visited youtube and saw the spelling standards of today. Mixing up "principle" and "principal" is not a big deal, in the grand scheme of things, in my opinion.
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:02 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 16):
Hey, what can I say, spelling never was my strong point.

You can be Vice-President someday just like Dan Quayle.
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:12 pm

My parents don't. (Luckily for me...) but soon, it seems as if they will have no option.
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:13 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 18):
Well, his point is moot anyway - I just visited youtube and saw the spelling standards of today. Mixing up "principle" and "principal" is not a big deal, in the grand scheme of things, in my opinion.

Don't get me started on that topic. The spelling of even our best kids is has become worse in the last ten years. I have seen it with my own eyes, on the assignments the students turn in. Since the dawn of texting the spelling has become worse and worse. When I taught in Detroit most of the kids spelled things with a "z" that should have had an "s"; boyz, toyz, carz, etc. Words with an "er" were spelled with an "a". Words like dinner and disaster became dinna and disasta. The students explained to me that it was a "black thing" and I wouldn't understand. I see this kind of bad spelling on local businesses too. To many of those kids bad spelling, speech, and grammar were a badge of honor, to do things correctly was a sign of selling out.

I was once told, by a highly paid consultant on urban schools, that I needed to embrace the language of my students and not put my white value system on them. It wasn't long after that I left for a much better public school.
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:22 pm

For all the failure we hear of in the public schools we never hear of the successes. Just this year the seniors (about 250) at my high school (Trenton High School, Trenton, MI.) earned just over $1,000,000 in scholarship money. 85% were accepted to college/university, 5% plan on going to the military and the other 10% are going to be doing who knows. Some of them were going to work. Some will be lazy slackers, but not all that many, and you will get that out of any group of teens. Trenton is a south suburb of Detroit and is occupied by mostly middle class students living with families who go to work every day. You won't hear about us on TV or in the Detroit Free Press, but you will hear all about Detroit Public Schools and the way it is portrayed you would think all of the area schools are failing.
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:54 pm

Quoting superfly (Reply 1):
Considering all the focus to indoctrinate kids in to global warming / climate change and feminism, I'd say no.
This story is shocking but sadly, I am not surprised.

Sounds like the Norwegian school system, except you forgot to ad the smart kids have to be dumbed down to the same level as the stupidest children, all Norwegians are supposed to be the same you know.

My 6 year old speaks better English than his English teacher, it's embarrassing, we have asked for him to be moved up a few grades for English but this isn't allowed, he's supposed to learn a word a day along with the rest of the kids.
 
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:24 pm

And to add to my above post.... If I ever have kids, I'd prefer them to go to private school. There is no comparison in terms of the resources the school itself has to keep it nice, and to afford quality teaching materials; for science and classes like that, it's very important. The bad thing about these schools is that they are prohibitively expensive, and out of reach for most.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
ounds like the Norwegian school system, except you forgot to ad the smart kids have to be dumbed down to the same level as the stupidest children, all Norwegians are supposed to be the same you know.

It's like that in many schools... Including my own, which is supposedly one of the most respected, and best, schools in the City. I have so many stories... Some are quite entertaining....
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:25 pm

In my opinion homeschooling has to be (at least) very carefully monitored and checked. Just as one would look very suspiciously at a parent who home-treats his sick child after diagnosing him with a home-medicine book, one should look at homeschooling parents the same way. Education is as important to the future of a child as is his health.

And even if the parents are able to properly educate their child according to a public curriculum (a must), the children still grow up without the important social lessons a school provides them. Be it group work or even working under less-than-ideal circumstances, those are important experiences.
 
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:33 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 18):
Well, his point is moot anyway - I just visited youtube and saw the spelling standards of today. Mixing up "principle" and "principal" is not a big deal, in the grand scheme of things, in my opinion.

Disagree, as falstaff has said. Poor spelling is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to poor education.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 21):
The students explained to me that it was a "black thing" and I wouldn't understand. I see this kind of bad spelling on local businesses too. To many of those kids bad spelling, speech, and grammar were a badge of honor, to do things correctly was a sign of selling out.

It's embarrassing, and not to play 'blame the media,' but what these kids hear on the radio, see on TV and read in magazines just reinforces the garbage they speak. I hate that the stereotype is reinforced both interally (among Blacks) and externally (among non-Blacks who expect it). I hate being told that "you don't talk Black, you can't be Black." No matter how hard parents, assuming they are even present, try, they cannot block all this media from their children short of becoming Amish.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 21):
I was once told, by a highly paid consultant on urban schools, that I needed to embrace the language of my students and not put my white value system on them. It wasn't long after that I left for a much better public school.

I would have choked said consltant out. There are two types of people who peddle that kind of nonsense, White apologists and Black supremacists.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 22):
For all the failure we hear of in the public schools we never hear of the successes.

Absolutely, while the general state of education in this country worries me - and others, we send far too much time identifying what is wrong and far too little time identifying what is right (and based on what is right, emulating models for success).
 
max999
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:42 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 18):
Well, his point is moot anyway - I just visited youtube and saw the spelling standards of today. Mixing up "principle" and "principal" is not a big deal, in the grand scheme of things, in my opinion.



I take exception to what you wrote...mixing those two words is a big deal. They have completely different meanings! This is analogous to mixing up their and there.

I question how you espouse the superiority of private education over public education, when you can’t even get the basics right. Language skills is fundamental in education...I don’t know where you learned you can dismiss it so readily.
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fr8mech
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:44 pm

First, let me state, that I am a product of the New York Board of Education. I never stepped into a private school I attended a private university.

As I've grown up and attended various post-secondary and graduate courses that my initial education was deficient. Particularly in mathematics, literature, and the physical sciences.

We decided to educate our children in a private/Catholic school because the schools in this area consistently rank in the lower percentiles in both the state and the country. We have busing here (disguised as a 'student assignment plan') where even kindergartners are bused across the city.

We have more involvement in what our children learn, but more importantly, what they are exposed to. Now, I'm not naive to think that they will not hear/see/do things that we're not happy with, but the exposure should be much lower than at a public school.

My kids are taught o think critically and are taught both sides of the subject, where applicable. Global warming has been brought up in this thread...my kids are (at least my oldest is, the youngest is just entering kindergarten) taught both sides of the issue, not just the religious-like dogma that some of the neighborhood kids seem to spout.

All that said, I wish I could send the kids to a public school. I pay for the schools. I want the kids to be exposed to different people (there is some exposure in our school). But, our first duty is to our children and to prepare them to be informed. productive members of society and we just don't see JCPS being able to do that to our satisfaction. Period.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:20 pm

Quoting superfly (Reply 1):
Considering all the focus to indoctrinate kids in to global warming / climate change and feminism, I'd say no.

Isn't the focus of homeschooling on indoctrination of children as well (or at least to shield them from those nasty things like evolution theory, etc.)?

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 18):
Mixing up "principle" and "principal" is not a big deal, in the grand scheme of things, in my opinion.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:32 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 29):
Isn't the focus of homeschooling on indoctrination of children as well (or at least to shield them from those nasty things like evolution theory, etc.)?

There is a difference between indoctrination by the State and indoctrination by the family unit. Both can be harmful, but when done by State, it is an insidious intrusion.
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elmothehobo
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:48 pm

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 26):
I would have choked said consltant out. There are two types of people who peddle that kind of nonsense, White apologists and Black supremacists.

Spelling fail on my part :/

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 30):
There is a difference between indoctrination by the State and indoctrination by the family unit. Both can be harmful, but when done by State, it is an insidious intrusion.

Absolutely, but the fact that a child goes to public school does not mean they are being indocrinated. The "Glenn Beck mentality" that someone (or something) is out there to fill your head with crazy ideas is getting old, fast. The effect of this ideology is now that people feel that if they disagree with something, they choose not to learn it.

Parents in Texas opposed an Arabic language program (funded by the National Security Educational Program or NSEP) because they believed it would lead to their children supporting Shari'a law. Kids being pulled out of biology class because they didn't want them learning about evolution. It isn't representative of the whole system by any means, but it is absolutely ridiculous.

Quoting superfly (Reply 1):
Considering all the focus to indoctrinate kids in to global warming / climate change and feminism, I'd say no. This story is shocking but sadly, I am not surprised.

I hope you are being sarcastic.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
My kids are taught o think critically and are taught both sides of the subject, where applicable. Global warming has been brought up in this thread...my kids are (at least my oldest is, the youngest is just entering kindergarten) taught both sides of the issue, not just the religious-like dogma that some of the neighborhood kids seem to spout.

That religious-like dogma you speak of is being spouted on both sides, courtesy of parents that brainwash their children in favor or against it. Being taught 'both sides' of an issue is a poor idea to start with, because there are often more than two sides to an issue, and secondly, people avoid teaching actual science by arguing that there is another side - and in the end it ends up drowning out realscience. Evolution is a perfect example, where 'intelligent design' is being taught as the counterweight to evolution. It is a foolish idea, but worse yet, it means that alternative theories of evolution - namely that not all living creatures evolved form the same base cells, are entirely ignored.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:01 pm

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 31):
Absolutely, but the fact that a child goes to public school does not mean they are being indocrinated.

Didn't claim that it was...I was addressing the specific concern brought up in reply 29 by L410Turbojet.

But, I will add that when the State, via the school system, pushes a political agenda, it is indoctrination.

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 31):
. Being taught 'both sides' of an issue is a poor idea to start with, because there are often more than two sides to an issue,

Semantics...teach all sides or most sides. Expose the children to the topic, do not expose them to a predetermined conclusion on controversial subjects.

I recall my 5th grade teacher telling us that the Vietnam War was wrong. There was no debate, no "but others think". There was no room for disagreement or argument. It was a statement of fact and to make a statement like that is wrong and morally corrupt. It deters the student from thinking critically about a subject.

Teach them to think critically...that is lacking in our public schools.

And, I'm certainly not saying it's the sole responsibility of the school to do that, the parents have a major role in making that happen.
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:09 pm

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 24):
And to add to my above post.... If I ever have kids, I'd prefer them to go to private school.

I'd love to send my kids to private school but they are few and far between in Norway, plus because they are seen as elitist which is a no no here the govt does it's best to make life hard for them. Makes it tough if you want to give your kids the best possible start to life.
 
ALTF4
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:41 pm

Quoting max999 (Reply 27):
I take exception to what you wrote...mixing those two words is a big deal. They have completely different meanings! This is analogous to mixing up their and there.

I agree, of course there are two completely different meanings to those words! I acknowledged my mistake. My point was that if at my worst I mix up "principle" and "principal" when hastily writing a post on lunch break, that is far better than the public education products that blather on youtube, who, apparently, at their best cannot spell common words.

Quoting max999 (Reply 27):
I question how you espouse the superiority of private education over public education, when you can’t even get the basics right.

Because you never, ever, ever, ever make a mistake, eh?

Quoting max999 (Reply 27):
education...I
Quoting max999 (Reply 27):
wrote...mixing

Oops! It looks like you're not using the ellipsis properly! Technically, the requirement is to place a space following an ellipsis, as they are a form of punctuation. Don't mind me, though; I don't want to get in the way of your obvious

Quoting max999 (Reply 27):
superiority

.

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 31):
Spelling fail on my part :/

Looks like non-homeschoolers make mistakes as well. Better not tell max999!  
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 29):
Isn't the focus of homeschooling on indoctrination of children as well

In some cases, it certainly can be, and that is regrettable in any circumstance. Is that not the case in public schools, as well? Don't some teachers teach that "[insert idea] is right, and don't listen to anybody who tells you otherwise"?

[Edited 2011-07-06 15:41:50]
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
max999
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:55 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 34):
Because you never, ever, ever, ever make a mistake, eh?

Now that I re-read what I wrote, I noticed how it came out wrong. That wasn't my intention at all...I meant basics by the fact that language skills is fundamental. You seemed to ignore the basics of spelling and I was taken aback by your cavalier attitude towards it.

And yes, we all make mistakes...many of them in fact.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:57 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 30):
There is a difference between indoctrination by the State and indoctrination by the family unit. Both can be harmful, but when done by State, it is an insidious intrusion.
Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 34):
Don't some teachers teach that "[insert idea] is right, and don't listen to anybody who tells you otherwise"?

I'd still think that there are more "checks and balances" employed to protect a child from harmful influence of school, not least by telling them them that there is another version of the story they are being told at chool and - if necessary - change of a teacher, class, school...
I don't think there is just as much available to protect children from their own delusional parents.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:58 pm

Quoting max999 (Reply 27):
Language skills is fundamental in education

Language skills are fundamental in education?

 

I'm assuming that that is not one of those stupid exceptions of the English language about which I have forgotten. If so, I apologize.  
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ALTF4
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:59 pm

Quoting max999 (Reply 35):
cavalier attitude towards it

Not my intention. The quote below was supposed to be acknowledging my mistake with a hint of joking.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 16):
Hey, what can I say, spelling never was my strong point.  

And then:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 34):
My point was that if at my worst I mix up "principle" and "principal" when hastily writing a post on lunch break, that is far better than the public education products that blather on youtube, who, apparently, at their best cannot spell common words.

Anyway, I think I have established, for today at least, that I cannot communicate less-than-stern emotions over the internet. Damn you, internet. Damn you. I'll give it a shot tomorrow. Peace!
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
ALTF4
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:07 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 36):
I don't think there is just as much available to protect children from their own delusional parents.

And that is true. However, we trust these parents to take care of their kids properly 7,320 hours out of the year, and freak out when they might have 1,440 more hours to control the thoughts of their children? Yes, those 1,440 hours in school are critical to their development, but 7,320 hours is a lot of hours for the parents to do their damage!

[Edited 2011-07-06 16:08:00]
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:11 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 36):
I'd still think that there are more "checks and balances" employed to protect a child from harmful influence of school, not least by telling them them that there is another version of the story they are being told at chool and - if necessary - change of a teacher, class, school...

But, what if the system is geared in the direction of indoctrination? Again, global warming, because it is one of the prevalent topics: it is being taught as settled science. we know it isn't. It's probably the most controversial science issue out there right now, but the schools are teaching it as gospel. And, that is indoctrination.

When the State sets the curriculum, it can indoctrinate the student and the teacher and/or school that refuses to play along is ostracized, not the other way around.

This is something we need to ward against. We, as parents and members of the society, must monitor the curricula and hold the government to account when it seeks to indoctrinate vs. teach.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 36):
delusional parents

Your bias is showing.
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OA412
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:42 pm

Quoting superfly (Reply 1):
Considering all the focus to indoctrinate kids in to global warming / climate change and feminism, I'd say no.
This story is shocking but sadly, I am not surprised.


Considering you don't have kids, and no longer live in the United States, may I ask what your source is for this information? You seem to be speaking from a position of authority.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 18):
Mixing up "principle" and "principal" is not a big deal, in the grand scheme of things, in my opinion.


But it is a big deal. I understand that, for certain people, spelling is not a strong suit, but some people's spelling is simply atrocious. Not to mention consistently mixing up things like there, their, and they're or writing could of rather than properly writing it as could've.

Quoting racko (Reply 25):
In my opinion homeschooling has to be (at least) very carefully monitored and checked.


  

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 29):
Isn't the focus of homeschooling on indoctrination of children as well (or at least to shield them from those nasty things like evolution theory, etc.)?


Pretty much. And without much oversight, you can't really control what parents are teaching their children.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 30):
There is a difference between indoctrination by the State and indoctrination by the family unit. Both can be harmful, but when done by State, it is an insidious intrusion.


What sort of indoctrination do you think is going on in American schools. I am also a product of the public school system, and I don't recall any teacher ever mentioning politics in the classroom. In fact, they would avoid politics like the plague.

Furthermore, given the home schooling is often practiced by fundamentalist Christians and other groups looking to shield their children from the realities of society, I'd say that the indoctrination children receive when being home-schooled is far more dangerous.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):
But, I will add that when the State, via the school system, pushes a political agenda, it is indoctrination.


We live in the United States right? You're speaking as though we're living in North Korea.

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 31):
I hope you are being sarcastic.


If only...

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):
I recall my 5th grade teacher telling us that the Vietnam War was wrong. There was no debate, no "but others think". There was no room for disagreement or argument. It was a statement of fact and to make a statement like that is wrong and morally corrupt. It deters the student from thinking critically about a subject.

Teach them to think critically...that is lacking in our public schools.

And, I'm certainly not saying it's the sole responsibility of the school to do that, the parents have a major role in making that happen.


He probably shouldn't have inserted his own viewpoint into the conversation, but I think that calling him morally corrupt is going overboard. Frankly, if parents think that their children are being "indoctrinated", it should be the job of the parents to tell the child that there is another side to the story. You mention that your children attend Catholic School, I assume you understand that they are being "indoctrinated" at that school as well. However, I suspect that because you agree with said "indoctrination", you're OK with it.

However, I've never come across anyone who had formed all of their views on the world based upon what they learned in public school. If that were true, we'd be a nation of lame liberals (at least according to conservatives). The vast majority of people have had their worldview influenced by what they learned at home. The sort of "indoctrination" that goes on in the home is, for better or worse, far more powerful than anything the school's are teaching.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 36):
I don't think there is just as much available to protect children from their own delusional parents.


Bingo, and that's one major issue with home schooling.
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Confuscius
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:56 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Thread starter):
Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child? 

No! It's a socialist plot to teach secularism and anti-capitalism to our precious children. Teaching evolution and sex education leads to moral decline. The public school system, along with fluoridation of our drinking water, is the greatest threat to western civilization.
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fr8mech
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:08 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 41):
What sort of indoctrination do you think is going on in American schools.
Quoting OA412 (Reply 41):
We live in the United States right? You're speaking as though we're living in North Korea.

You misunderstand me... I don't say that our children are being indoctrinated on a wide or even small scale. I am saying that it is possible and we should be warding against it. When the State sets the curriculum, we, as a free society, need to be vigilant.

Would you be surprised if I said that, beyond the basics (math, reading, writing, basic sciences) I'm really not concerned by what is taught (within limits); I am concerned with how it's taught.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 41):
He probably shouldn't have inserted his own viewpoint into the conversation, but I think that calling him morally corrupt is going overboard.

It was a she (but, you wouldn't know that), and yes, I do think that she was morally corrupt, as a teacher. One of the jobs a teacher has is to impart information to the students. Sometimes, that involves interjecting personal opinion, but to prevent debate on a subject is to deny the students the opportunity to learn. That is why I called her morally corrupt. Not in her life, but in her profession.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 41):
You mention that your children attend Catholic School, I assume you understand that they are being "indoctrinated" at that school as well.

I monitor what my daughter is learning. I ask questions that, I hope, spark some critical thought. Example: I know, that even in the local Catholic school system, the 'science' of global warming is taught (starting in kindergarten). But, I have asked my daughter (and will do the same with my son) what else she learned about it. I ask her questions and let her know that there are different viewpoints out there.

It's kind of easy right now...she's going into the third grade, and the boy into first. It will be a lot harder as the subjects get more expansive and more involved, but I will try to ensure my children look at controversial subjects with an open mind and are not subjected or fall prey to dogma. But, I will also tell them what my position is and why I feel that way.
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Superfly
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:16 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
Sounds like the Norwegian school system, except you forgot to ad the smart kids have to be dumbed down to the same level as the stupidest children, all Norwegians are supposed to be the same you know.

Same thing in some California schools. My niece was excelling faster than the rest of her class back when she was in elementary school. So they gave her extra coloring books or the option to go home early. This was 4th grade mind you. She pulled her out of that school and put her in the Catholic school of the Church they attend.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 41):
Considering you don't have kids, and no longer live in the United States, may I ask what your source is for this information? You seem to be speaking from a position of authority.

I have friends who are teachers. I have nieces & nephews, friends and other relatives with children. Many of their complaints are similar and these people don’t even know each other. It’s an ongoing trend throughout the West (US/EU)
I'm not that old either so I saw the trend in that direction before I finished school.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 29):
Isn't the focus of home schooling on indoctrination of children as well (or at least to shield them from those nasty things like evolution theory, etc.)?

I don't like home-schooling either. I still support public schools but they need to run out a lot of idiots in those schools that do a disservice to the student's education.
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Flighty
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:05 am

I see no reason the government needs to be in the school business.

The public has the right to a K-12 education. Money should be allocated for that. But why does the government run the school? The government should accredit schools and pay them, but not administer them. Not run them. Not staff them.

We should have a vibrant school sector with many schools being created, and many being destroyed.
 
MoltenRock
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:36 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 45):
I see no reason the government needs to be in the school business.

Thomas Jefferson disagrees with you. In fact America led the world into having public education systems for virtually every child. So it isn't the institution or the boogeyman Republican politicians like to make the public schools system, as it previously has been very effective, but rather what it has become. What once led the world in test scores and educational achievements has become fundamentally broken for various reasons. Given the poor pay teachers get in the US it's no wonder the results are less than stellar. In nearly all highly academic systems of other nations that beat the US in results, the teachers are compensated significantly higher, as well as are highly respected. Much like fire fighters, military personnel, or policemen are in the US. Also, young male teachers in the US for primary education are viewed as child molesters or "suspect" which doesn't help matters either. Education is just one of the major problems that are intractable in the USA today and won't be fixed anytime soon.
 
Superfly
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:11 am

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 46):
Given the poor pay teachers get in the US it's no wonder the results are less than stellar.

I agree however there is a discipline issue with many students that turn away good teachers. Why should a geometry or chemistry teacher be forced to be a disciplinarian? Yet if the teacher raises their voice at a bad student, he/she can lose their job. A teacher might say something that a bad student won’t like and claim that their feelings were hurt. Then the teacher is out of work and the school is saddled with teachers that don't ready give a damn.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 46):
In nearly all highly academic systems of other nations that beat the US in results, the teachers are compensated significantly higher, as well as are highly respected.

Schools aren't compositor either in those countries. Those schools cost a lot of money and only the rich can afford to send their kids to school. In India, only 1% can afford to attend school.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 46):
young male teachers in the US for primary education are viewed as child molesters or "suspect" which doesn't help matters either.

Our litigious society and educators are to blame for that. Too much focus on touchy, feely stuff and sewing as an acceptable way to get ahead is to blame for that.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:54 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 40):
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 36):
delusional parents

Your bias is showing.

Bias against extremes? Perhaps. The Swedish uber-PC kindergarten that tries to indoctrinate children with bizarre ideas of "gender neutral" society and purge their libraries of classic fairy tales is a left wing extreme, homeschooling is a blast from 18th century past and example of religious right extreme.
Even without the underlying issues of homeschooling like various religious agendas, I think homeschooling deprives children of many, both positive and negative social experiences, which simply can not be replicated in the home environment.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Do You Trust The Government To Educate Your Child?

Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:11 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 48):
I think homeschooling deprives children of many, both positive and negative social experiences, which simply can not be replicated in the home environment.

I know a couple of folks who homeschool and they socialize their children through a variety of activities with like minded families and 'traditionally schooling' families.

Not my cup of tea, but so long as the kids get the required education, not my business.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 48):
homeschooling is a blast from 18th century past and example of religious right extreme.

I'm not sure that it's the religious issues that drive the parents to home school. The folks I know that home school do tend to be more religious than others I know (certainly not as religious as some of the parents at my kids' school) but, they seem to be more frustrated by the public school system and believe they can offer better to their children. Is there a religious component? Probably. Is it the driver? No, I doubt it.
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