JU068
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AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:01 am

Morning,

I didn't see anyone posting this so please let me know if it was discussed before.

According to this article, Air France has not allowed a female employee at IAD to work with the headscarf as it goes against the dress-code of AF.

According to the Council of American-Islamic Relations she has been sent home since her superiors argued that her veil was breaching the dress-code of the airline.
The Council has officially asked for an apology from Air France whereas the airline had launched an official investigation into this matter.

It was not mentioned if the person was an airport or airline employee, however if her superiors (Air France employees) have sent her home then I suppose that she works for Air France.

What I do not understand is why would they need to lauch an official investigation into the matter when it should be easy for them to say if the veil is in breach of the dress code or not?

Article: (only in French sorry)
http://www.air-journal.fr/2011-06-25...se-mal-chez-air-france-531902.html
 
directorguy
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:05 am

This is just silly.
Companies usually allow veiled female employees to wear a headscarf that is color-compatible with the rest of the uniform, so long as the scarf does not 'dominate' the appearance of the person wearing it.
 
JU068
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:08 am

Quoting directorguy (Reply 1):
This is just silly.
Companies usually allow veiled female employees to wear a headscarf that is color-compatible with the rest of the uniform, so long as the scarf does not 'dominate' the appearance of the person wearing it.

This would make even less sense if they are allowed to wear them in Paris.
 
vv701
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:50 am

This echoes the situation in 2004 when the French government introduced a law banning headscarfes from French schools:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/3328277.stm

Scroll down to:

"Q: Why is there such sensitivity to overt religious symbols in a Catholic country?"

for an interesting assessment on the background to the French headscarfe situation.

Having said the above this happened in the USA. I cannot believe that AF would try to impose French influenced culture on their employees or contractors in the USA except where it jibed with American culture.

I wonder if a somewhat over-zealous local French employee may be responsible. If so that could well require AF to conduct a quick inquiry to determine exactly what happened and why. After all we all know that the media often gets stories about commercial aviation very wrong.

Another possibility is that the media could just have got hold of totally the wrong end of the stick. This could just be a mole-hill-into-a-mountain situation. Perhaps the headscarfe in question was simply the wrong colour?
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:01 am

This seems kinda strange since there is more than one minority christian sect that require women to cover thier heads/hair in public. I dunno about other religions, but wouldn't be suprised if there was plenty around the globe with these kinds of restrictions for thier members.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:17 am

I may be wrong, but I don't think any of the MWAA or MAA airports allow head scarfs either at ticket counters or gates.

It's way past just AF.
 
bjorn14
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:20 am

They have totally banned headscarves in all of France (enforcement is another issue) so why not at the flag carrier. Why is this now an issue? Did AF not know she was a veil-wearing Muslim or did she just show up one day with it on after not having worn one previously?

[Edited 2011-07-11 03:22:15]
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directorguy
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:35 am

More importantly, this woman is an employee in the US working for an EU company. So whose laws apply, US laws or French labour laws?
 
ltbewr
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:41 am

I believe that AF's policy against religious head coverings in their workplace, unless there is a legitimate safety reason, is illegal in the USA. I am quite sure Federal workplace agencies would quickly agree with the woman and against AF and if AF were to enforce such a policy could lead to a fine or other penalties.

The USA has well established Constitutional freedom as to religion or that their cannot be an official state faith, that has been clearly interpreted that employers cannot discriminate as to faith (or not having a faith belief) including one to wear religious head coverings. The employer must accommodate. They could require the headscarf be of certain colors that match her uniform.
 
bjorn14
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:10 am

Apparently, she was technically not an AF employee but an employee of a staffing agency hired by AF. Headscarves or religous garb have always been a contentious issue especially for customer contact employees.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
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spinkid
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:57 pm

I would say if she is an American citizen or living here legally and working for a contracted company, even working for AF she should have no problems wearing her headscarf.
 
1stfl94
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:02 pm

I would have thought the rule in this case would have been that of the country where the woman works (in this case the USA).

After all how would it work for AF employees in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia where they would be required to wear headscarves?
 
mcr
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:15 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 6):
They have totally banned headscarves in all of France (enforcement is another issue) so why not at the flag carrier. Why is this now an issue? Did AF not know she was a veil-wearing Muslim or did she just show up one day with it on after not having worn one previously?

I think you'll find the ban in France applies only to full face veils (the sort that make identification impossible) in public places, and not to headscarves in general (religiously motivated or otherwise). I suspect Parisian ladies of a certain age would have kicked off a new French revolution had a blanket ban on headscarves been imposed... and shares in Hermes and Chanel would have plummeted!
 
FRAIAD
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:19 pm

I think before a country's law is completely misrepresented here, a little bit more research would be appropriate. Thanks mcr for the clarification.
 
DullesFlyer
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:35 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 5):
I may be wrong, but I don't think any of the MWAA or MAA airports allow head scarfs either at ticket counters or gates.

TSA has one checking tickets and passorts at security.
 
Mir
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:56 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 3):
Having said the above this happened in the USA. I cannot believe that AF would try to impose French influenced culture on their employees or contractors in the USA except where it jibed with American culture.

Why wouldn't they try to impose French-influenced culture on their employees in the US? They're a French airline, and it makes sense to have elements of French culture greeting passengers as early as check-in. Obviously they can't violate US law, but I'm not sure that banning a head scarf from the dress code crosses that line.

Quoting DullesFlyer (Reply 14):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 5):
I may be wrong, but I don't think any of the MWAA or MAA airports allow head scarfs either at ticket counters or gates.

TSA has one checking tickets and passorts at security.

They have a head scarf checking tickets and passports at security?    Well, I suppose it can't do any worse....  

-Mir
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pnd100
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:57 pm

For those who may not know. There is a major difference between the Hijab (headscarf) & the Niqab (face veil) in terms of security. Please note that the Holy Qu'ran does not require women to wear EITHER. It asks BOTH men & women to dress modestly but does not specify that they MUST cover their heads or faces. This is a custom that is followed by SOME people who feel this brings them closer to God by doing so.

In terms of a company policy or civil right I can see why the Niqab (face veil) would not be allowed. By not being able to view someone's face it can pose a security risk, not to mention a great deal of unease when dealing with a person. France's ban was in regards to Niqabs (Face Veils), not Hijabs (headscarves). In Canada, the Muslim Canadian Congress also supports a ban on Niqabs (Face Veils) on account of them not being a religious requirement.

However, I do not see how wearing a headscarf would undermine someone's ability to work in a customer facing role. If this is indeed the case AF should apologize. Many ground agents & flight attendants for many different airlines across the world wear colour matching headscarves.
 
DullesFlyer
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:03 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
They have a head scarf checking tickets and passports at security?

Sadly, yes.
 
migair54
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:14 pm

Air France can do if they want.... They have a dressing code so if you don´t follow or if you don´t like.... bye bye.... look for something else....
 
crj200faguy
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:21 pm

Muslims always want to cause trouble with this stuff. I highly doubt I could wear my cross working the ek counter in dxb.
 
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Aesma
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:34 pm

I don't know about the law in the US (or even in France, for a case like this), but considering the dress code at airlines seems pretty draconian (banning things like earrings if you're a man) I would find it strange that a headscarf could be imposed on airlines.


Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 6):
Did AF not know she was a veil-wearing Muslim or did she just show up one day with it on after not having worn one previously?

This happens all the time. Show up at the job interview with a nice brushing and make-up, then after a while on the job, when there is no possibility to easily fire the employee (French labor laws), transform into a ghost :



Quoting mcr (Reply 12):
I think you'll find the ban in France applies only to full face veils (the sort that make identification impossible) in public places, and not to headscarves in general (religiously motivated or otherwise).

That's true. Public servants, state or local, cannot wear any obvious religious sign, however (including hijabs, turbans, big visible cross, kippahs, etc.).
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JU068
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:36 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 18):
Air France can do if they want.... They have a dressing code so if you don´t follow or if you don´t like.... bye bye.... look for something else....

Couldn't agree more with this. If the person is not happy with the dress code imposed by the airline it can always apply to work with another one that allows it.
 
pnd100
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:54 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 18):
Air France can do if they want.... They have a dressing code so if you don´t follow or if you don´t like.... bye bye.... look for something else....

There does come a point where an individual should take accountability I agree. There is a difference between rights & privileges & I personally feel our whole western society has become too "P.C."

Minor things like this take attention away from much more serious issues & end up creating resentment among others

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 19):
Muslims always want to cause trouble with this stuff. I highly doubt I could wear my cross working the ek counter in dxb.

That may be true crj200faguy but why do we need to reciprocate that? Personally I work with many people who wear crosses & I also work with many people who wear headscarves. We all work in customer relations & I am proud to say that we are all professionals. Hopefully we can all move forward to an age where we are judged for what we do instead of what we wear. I hope this happens one day in DXB, IAD & elsewhere
 
EBGARN
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:00 pm

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 16):
However, I do not see how wearing a headscarf would undermine someone's ability to work in a customer facing role.

And I would be able to do a perfectly fine job wearing a wetsuit and a Dolphins cap at the check-in counter. But it is against the AF dressing code, so I wouldn't be allowed to wear that!

I see no reason whatsoever why religious beliefs should give a right to breach the dressing code. What would that reason be? Someones faith is private matter, and should be kept out of workplaces, schools etc. Otherwise we'll one day end up in a mad world.
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ScottB
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:07 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
I don't know about the law in the US (or even in France, for a case like this), but considering the dress code at airlines seems pretty draconian (banning things like earrings if you're a man) I would find it strange that a headscarf could be imposed on airlines.

In the U.S., "An employer is required to reasonably accommodate the religious belief of an employee or prospective employee, unless doing so would impose an undue hardship." (from the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission). Therefore, AF (or any other foreign carrier employing staff in the U.S.) would have to demonstrate "an undue hardship" suffered by permitting an employee to wear a headscarf. The law might be a bit more murky with respect to employees of a contractor, which appears to be the case here, but I suspect it still applies.

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
What I do not understand is why would they need to lauch an official investigation into the matter when it should be easy for them to say if the veil is in breach of the dress code or not?

They most likely need to investigate to see if the dress code complies with local law.
 
pnd100
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:43 pm

Quoting EBGARN (Reply 23):
I see no reason whatsoever why religious beliefs should give a right to breach the dressing code. What would that reason be? Someones faith is private matter, and should be kept out of workplaces, schools etc. Otherwise we'll one day end up in a mad world.

EBGARN, I agree with you. I was just trying to show that there could have been a win-win situation here. AF could have taken a higher road than the employee. There is nothing wrong with having a dress code but I think AF should not open itself to this type of criticism over this issue. They could have found another reason for letting her go. Personally I think that is what may have happened. She was probably asked to leave for some other reason & she cried discrimination instead. Now it is AF that has the bad publicity.

On the flipside I don't believe that any company should not exclude somebody just for this reason. I'm saying it could have been handled different. A colour matching headscarf perhaps? Like I said, many of my colleagues wear headscarves & there is absolutely no issue. Our societies have been too influenced by fear mongering by the media & the actions of a handful.

What upsets me is that it is misrepresentation. It is NOT a religious requirement. It is NOT required by Islam to begin with. Sadly, when people hear stories like this they think it represents all Muslims when in reality it is a minority. In fact look at the majority of Muslims in North Africa, Turkey, India, Bangladesh & Southeast Asia. They do not wear head coverings of any kind. Wearing a head scarf does not make someone a better Muslim, at least not according to the Holy Qu'ran.

[Edited 2011-07-11 13:09:28]
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:50 pm

Well done AF. Due to the European human rights court this is NOT humiliating freedom of religion.
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:03 pm

The AF dress code clearly states that no apparent religious sign is allowed, whether it's a scarf, a christian cross, a jewish star or anything you want.

This dress code is valid for the ground staff and flying staff, in any AF Office/Airport/Airplane.

You are informed about this when you sign your work contract. Then it's up to you not to work for AF if you don't agree with this.
 
sq_ek_freak
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:07 pm

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 19):
Muslims always want to cause trouble with this stuff. I highly doubt I could wear my cross working the ek counter in dxb.

Err check again.
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kgaiflyer
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:07 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
This happens all the time. Show up at the job interview with a nice brushing and make-up, then after a while on the job, when there is no possibility to easily fire the employee (French labor laws), transform into a ghost :

I don't know about that.

In my workplace, people have been fired for letting their grooming slip.

It's easy -- they *suddenly* start getting poor performance reviews -- then they're let go.
 
pnd100
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:14 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 27):
The AF dress code clearly states that no apparent religious sign is allowed, whether it's a scarf, a christian cross, a jewish star or anything you want.

This dress code is valid for the ground staff and flying staff, in any AF Office/Airport/Airplane.

You are informed about this when you sign your work contract. Then it's up to you not to work for AF if you don't agree with this.

See now if this is the case then it is the employee who is at fault. If she signed the contract she is subject to it as long as it meets legal requirements. I'm sure AF had a team of lawyers review the contract before issuing it to all their employees. This is not discrimination in my view, this is a person who sees a big target with a large airline. I'm sure at some point a civil case will be brought forth as the ultimate goal is $$$. It's a shame someone misusing religion in this manner.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 28):
Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 19):
Muslims always want to cause trouble with this stuff. I highly doubt I could wear my cross working the ek counter in dxb.

Err check again.

Are you saying that someone can work with EK at DXB with visible non-Muslim religious signs?
 
ScottB
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:36 pm

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 30):
Are you saying that someone can work with EK at DXB with visible non-Muslim religious signs?

What an EK employee may wear on the job at DXB is immaterial; the issue here is compliance with U.S. fair employment laws.
 
pnd100
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:42 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 31):
What an EK employee may wear on the job at DXB is immaterial; the issue here is compliance with U.S. fair employment laws.

I am assuming that it does comply with the law. I'm sure was legally checked by AF prior to issuance. If not that is very poor corporate governance. To me she signed the contract & then violated it's terms. She then was asked to leave & instead of moving on, she decided to give AF (& Islam) a bad name by trying to show they are being discriminatory to her "morals"? What can I say, according to her "morals" it seems alright to sign something, violate it & then turn it around on the other party. That is sure not what Islam says.

In a democratic society if you do not like the law you can lobby to have it changed. You can not however create mischief for no good reason. Like I said, I think this is the precursor to the real case - a civil suit for "wrongful" dismissal which they hope AF will settle out of court to keep a firestorm of bad publicity from exploding
 
WesternA318
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:03 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
They have a head scarf checking tickets and passports at security? Well, I suppose it can't do any worse....

-Mir
Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 19):
Muslims always want to cause trouble with this stuff. I highly doubt I could wear my cross working the ek counter in dxb.

Anyone remember the scene from Airplane II where all the guys with machine guns and mortar launchers and the Iran Air bus with blindfolded passengers had no problem getting through security, but once little ole' Granny Smith with her knitting needles goes through...the TSA (in the movie they also wear blue shirts, lol) pulls the guns out and Granny's up against the wall?

Seriously, flying in the US is just a big joke. Muslims working at the TSA checking other peoples boarding passes and ID's when it was their own kind that forced the US Gov't to create the TSA.

I sure hope this AF worker has been fired permanently, and I salute AF for doing this.

Also somewhat related...I was in line at the DL ticket counter in MCO waiting to check my bags when the guy in front of me spotted a Muslim family ahead in the line. He flipped out, took his cell phone out, called another airline on his cell phone and right there in front of me purchased a ticket to his destination on THAT airline, then got out of line and headed away, presumably to the other airline's counter. LOL, awesome.
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pnd100
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:13 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 33):
Seriously, flying in the US is just a big joke. Muslims working at the TSA checking other peoples boarding passes and ID's when it was their own kind that forced the US Gov't to create the TSA.

I sure hope this AF worker has been fired permanently, and I salute AF for doing this.

Also somewhat related...I was in line at the DL ticket counter in MCO waiting to check my bags when the guy in front of me spotted a Muslim family ahead in the line. He flipped out, took his cell phone out, called another airline on his cell phone and right there in front of me purchased a ticket to his destination on THAT airline, then got out of line and headed away, presumably to the other airline's counter. LOL, awesome.

I see this has devolved. It is unfortunate. If you really think terrorists are "their" kind then I feel sorry for you. Terrorism is pure evil, it has no place in ANY religion. Human history is filled with genocides & barbarian acts. It would be the sign of utmost ignorance to think that all people of a certain group share the same desires & views.
 
WesternA318
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:32 pm

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 34):
I see this has devolved. It is unfortunate. If you really think terrorists are "their" kind then I feel sorry for you. Terrorism is pure evil, it has no place in ANY religion. Human history is filled with genocides & barbarian acts. It would be the sign of utmost ignorance to think that all people of a certain group share the same desires & views.

That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I'm not about to get into a political argument.

I stated my opinion on the matter, and added my own 2 cents involving a fellow SkyTeam member airline with AF. I'm just tired of the general American populace rolling over and surrendering their civil liberities and freedoms granted to us by the Constitution of the United States.
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csavel
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:35 pm

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 19):
Muslims always want to cause trouble with this stuff. I highly doubt I could wear my cross working the ek counter in dxb.

Don't know about Dubai, but you certainly could in New York, or any other place in the US. Doubt EK would care, or even if they did, they wouldn't do anything to you. I've seen women with headscarves (not the full veiled niqab) in public positions all over New York.

Either there is something more to this story, or someone at AF or whatever staffing agency/company was hired by AF totally messed up.

on a personal note, as long as it is freely done, I have no problem with head scarves, no more than I have with a religious Jew wearing a Yarmulke or a Sikh wearing a tuban. A niqab is another thing entirely.
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LordMontenegro
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:43 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 33):
Muslims working at the TSA checking other peoples boarding passes and ID's when it was their own kind that forced the US Gov't to create the TSA.

"Their own kind"?! I really hope I have a broken sarcasm filter and you don't really believe that a Muslim working for the TSA is an automatic threat to national security...


As far as this woman's complaint, if she did indeed sign a contract with AF that outright stated that she cannot wear a headscarf, for whatever reason, then I don't see where she has any legal ground to stand on. Of course, as per usual with the media, we're only getting one side of this. Were there other variables? Incorrect color? What were the circumstances behind her being asked to leave? Without that information, it's hard to say whether this is an AF public relations blunder, or if it's simply an angry worker who wants compensation for not getting her way.
 
pnd100
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:48 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 35):
That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I'm not about to get into a political argument.

I stated my opinion on the matter, and added my own 2 cents involving a fellow SkyTeam member airline with AF. I'm just tired of the general American populace rolling over and surrendering their civil liberities and freedoms granted to us by the Constitution of the United States.
WesternA318, with all due respect. Since when does the Constitution of the United States justify a federal agency like the TSA not permitting an American citizen to work for it on the basis that he / she is a Muslim?

You are entitled to your opinion. It's easy to call something opinion & seek defense under that. What I am stating however is not an opinion. It is fact. It is as follows:

1) NO religion condones killing. This is fact based on extended studies of religious texts including the Holy Bible, the Holy Qu'ran, the Torah, the Gita & others. Just because a Christian preacher suggests that killing someone is God's wish does not mean it is. The Holy Bible clearly states that killing someone is wrong. The same applies if an Imam twists the Holy Qu'ran

2) Unfortunately misguided people from ALL different religious backgrounds throughout human history have committed atrocities in the name of religion. It continues today. Read about the conflict in Sri Lanka where people have twisted the teachings of two pacifist religions like Buddhism & Hinduism & pitted people against each other. That does not mean that Hinduism & Buddhism condone violence. It does not mean that all Hindus or Buddhists feel the same way.

You are making a reasoning from a flawed logic.

You are following the sequence of
a) The attacks were done by terrorists
b) The terrorists were Muslim &
c) Therefore all Muslims are terrorists

There are thousands of American Muslims who work hard every day for America. Who fight in the US Military, who are firefighters & police officers. Hundreds of Muslims died in the 9/11 attacks. Now you are suggesting that they not be allowed to work for a government agency on the basis of their religion? That does not sound like the Constitution I know. That does not sound like the America I know.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 12038
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:54 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 27):
The AF dress code clearly states that no apparent religious sign is allowed, whether it's a scarf, a christian cross, a jewish star or anything you want.

This dress code is valid for the ground staff and flying staff, in any AF Office/Airport/Airplane.

This should be allowed. Every large company strives to standardize the customer experience. Hot dog on a stick specifies on headdress. McDonalds has their caps... Why shouldn't Air France try to keep the visible uniform consistent?

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 30):
I'm sure AF had a team of lawyers review the contract before issuing it to all their employees. This is not discrimination in my view, this is a person who sees a big target with a large airline. I'm sure at some point a civil case will be brought forth as the ultimate goal is $$$.

I too suspect this is a ploy for money.

As a customer, I don't want to have to deal with anyone trying to persuade me about their religion. It doesn't matter if the person isn't doing anything they consider wrong... As a customer, I want religion left out of the transaction. If you're my friend, let's have a drink (coffee, wine or beer, heck just water...) and discuss religion. But not why I'm handing you dollars or worse (IMHO) my employer is handing over dollars.

My opinion is reinforced based on how my Jewesh, Hindu, Catholic, various protestant or Christian non-denominational friends react when another religion is 'thrust in their face.'

AF has a 'grooming standard.' While I like to show up at work 'wearing whatever I want,' I have been wishing lately that my employer still enforced their old grooming standard.

AF also will have FOD quidelines. A standardized uniform for each position prevents FOD to the flightline. I'm certain my employer is 100X more strict than AF. Then again, we have to ban the materials scarves are typically made from (due to prior issues with office staff giving tours and not following static electricity guidelines around open flight hardware).

This is a 'mountain out of a mole hill.' AF has their dress code.   

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
WesternA318
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:56 pm

Quoting LordMontenegro (Reply 37):
"Their own kind"?! I really hope I have a broken sarcasm filter and you don't really believe that a Muslim working for the TSA is an automatic threat to national security...

the filter must be broken, as it is said in partial jest. However, I do not consider Muslims a threat to national security.
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
pnd100
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:40 pm

RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:59 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 39):
I too suspect this is a ploy for money.

As a customer, I don't want to have to deal with anyone trying to persuade me about their religion. It doesn't matter if the person isn't doing anything they consider wrong... As a customer, I want religion left out of the transaction. If you're my friend, let's have a drink (coffee, wine or beer, heck just water...) and discuss religion. But not why I'm handing you dollars or worse (IMHO) my employer is handing over dollars.

My opinion is reinforced based on how my Jewesh, Hindu, Catholic, various protestant or Christian non-denominational friends react when another religion is 'thrust in their face.'

AF has a 'grooming standard.' While I like to show up at work 'wearing whatever I want,' I have been wishing lately that my employer still enforced their old grooming standard.

AF also will have FOD quidelines. A standardized uniform for each position prevents FOD to the flightline. I'm certain my employer is 100X more strict than AF. Then again, we have to ban the materials scarves are typically made from (due to prior issues with office staff giving tours and not following static electricity guidelines around open flight hardware).

This is a 'mountain out of a mole hill.' AF has their dress code.

   Agreed lightsaber. The only thing I was suggesting was that AF could have (if they wanted to) had a sub-uniform for employees who wanted to wear a hijab like BA does with saris on flights to India. It can be done in a way where the standard is not compromised & nothing is "in your face". But this has $$$ written all over it. Thanks to FlySSC who stated that this was part of the contract. That changed the argument for me. Before I was thinking that perhaps she was told after she started to leave for that reason. If she read the contract & signed the contract, she clearly knew what she was getting into. She purposely violated it.
 
WesternA318
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Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:14 pm

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 41):
But this has $$$ written all over it. Thanks to FlySSC who stated that this was part of the contract. That changed the argument for me. Before I was thinking that perhaps she was told after she started to leave for that reason. If she read the contract & signed the contract, she clearly knew what she was getting into. She purposely violated it.

Pnd,
I agree with you on this, this has to be nothing more than a money-grab...
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
747438
Posts: 658
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:45 am

RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:15 pm

Quoting DullesFlyer (Reply 17):
Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
They have a head scarf checking tickets and passports at security?

Sadly, yes.

Why "sadly" ?
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3553
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:27 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 24):
reasonably accommodate

Ah yes, there is one of those words 'reasonable' what one person's thought of reasonable is another man's tormented prison. My wife would know.

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 30):
See now if this is the case then it is the employee who is at fault. If she signed the contract she is subject to it as long as it meets legal requirements. I'm sure AF had a team of lawyers review the contract before issuing it to all their employees. This is not discrimination in my view, this is a person who sees a big target with a large airline. I'm sure at some point a civil case will be brought forth as the ultimate goal is $$$.

I was reading a Islamic blog about a similar case involving Wal-Mart and most responses were along the lines of ..."Allah will punish them but in the mean time sue them my dear sister" Allah Akbar!
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
pnd100
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:40 pm

RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:28 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 42):
I agree with you on this, this has to be nothing more than a money-grab.

That is why it is upsetting to me that both AF & the religion of Islam are having their reputations damaged.

Like I stated before;
1) Headscarves are not mandated by Islam so claiming it as a religious ground just adds to the misconception that it is
2) If AF disclosed this in a contract which she signed, then she is in violation of the agreement

If I were the judge in the case I would throw it out

Just like the whole DL-SV fiasco, now AF is having their image tarnished by falsehoods. These days it is so easy to get press isn't it? It seems far too easy to make the mountains out of molehills.

WesternA318 & everyone, if I seem over-passionate I apologize. It's because I've studied religion & atheism. All the major religions. I found such beauty & harmony in all paths. You would be amazed how similar all of the major faiths are in their principles. It is so sad & frustrating to me that so called religious leaders spread hate instead of love. The message of all the Holy books is love & yet the airwaves seem to only report the messages of hate. There have been so many misconceptions & I wish that people would take a minute to try & put themselves in another person's shoes.

I understand the frustration. On A.net we all love airlines & this has been an industry so shaken by the horrible acts of terror. But please do not fall into the trap of thinking the terrorists represent their communities. They absolutely do not. Civil aviation has been from it's inception about bringing people together around the world. Civil aviation represents possibilities.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 44):
I was reading a Islamic blog about a similar case involving Wal-Mart and most responses were along the lines of ..."Allah will punish them but in the mean time sue them my dear sister" Allah Akbar!

The Islamic blog post is clearly written by someone who does not understand Islam. Growing a beard & shouting Allahu Akbar at everything does not make you a Muslim. Sadly today, these are the people who media chooses to represent Muslims. These types have hijacked the religion.

God as outlined in the Holy Qu'ran is not a force to strike down those who disagree with you. In fact it clearly states along the lines of the Holy Bible that it is not our place as humans to judge people. No true Muslim would write that "they will be punished" because a true Muslim would believe that it is God's will whether anyone be punished & as a human, we are not to speak for God.

Let us not make the mistake of assuming that this person speaks for all Muslims because he does not. Just like we would not want any one idiot to represent our community. Dr. Zakir Naik, a Muslim scholar states that if you wish to find out about a religion, read the book, do not look at it's followers. The followers of any faith are human & thus susceptible to poor judgement & behaviour.



[Edited 2011-07-11 15:38:36]
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4495
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RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:40 pm

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 45):
if I seem over-passionate I apologize

You have no need to apologize, there need to be more people out there like you speaking your mind. I've also studied religion and atheism and have settled as an agnostic. There's just too much hate from religious leaders nowadays. I used to be passionate about the airline industry myself, but left the industry in 2009 after 14 years at it, starting at TWA. Now I focus on my family, and growing my various businesses. Welcome to my respected users list, pnd100.
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
9w748capt
Posts: 846
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:24 pm

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 38):
Read about the conflict in Sri Lanka where people have twisted the teachings of two pacifist religions like Buddhism & Hinduism & pitted people against each other. That does not mean that Hinduism & Buddhism condone violence. It does not mean that all Hindus or Buddhists feel the same way.

I thought the Sri Lankan conflict was more Tamil vs Sinhalese as opposed to Hindu vs Buddhist. Both groups have members of all religions - IIRC the last head of the LTTE was a Christian? ... but anyways that's off topic. Speaking of Hindu vs Buddhist, I did notice when I toured the temples at Angkor that Buddhist kings would desecrate Hindu shrines and Hindu kings would return the favor when they took power. Quite interesting.

But anyway, agreed that this should be an open-and-shut case - AF as a private company has every right to outline a dress code for its employees. Would take one daring/radical judge to uphold the employee's argument on this one.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2306
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:37 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 18):
Air France can do if they want.... They have a dressing code so if you don
[quote=9w748capt,reply=47]Would take one daring/radical judge to uphold the employee's argument on this one.

You must not know US employment and religious accommodation law. AF might as well start designing a sub-uniform with a hijab (for their US employees) now because this one is pretty much open and shut with plenty of precedents, if all the facts are true. AF would have to prove that this employee's headscarf is a safety hazard or that accommodating her beliefs would cause an unreasonable burden upon the company to get away with firing her because of a headscarf.
 
goblin211
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:30 pm

RE: AF Bans Employee With A Headscarf In IAD

Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:51 pm

I think that AF didn't have a right to do this on US soil but in France, yes. France is the french's country so they have to enforce their own rules but the flight originated in the US and therefore she should have to abide by the US rules like everyone else. By the same token until we hear more about this story I'm going b the OP. and article as to what happened. I don't actually think the story is fully told or told right.
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