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Mortyman
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The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:50 pm

A large majority of Israelis want their country to become a member of both the EU and NATO.



The survey was conducted by Ben Gurion University in Tel Aviv and was announced Tuesday.

81 percent of Israelis want Israel to join the EU, while 68 percent say they want NATO membership. Somewhat fewer, but still a clear majority of 64 percent, say they want NATO troops as peacekeepers on the border with the Palestinian areas of Gaza Strip and West Bank.



An english translation from norwegian and more on the subject here


http://translate.google.com/translat...kel.php%3Fartid%3D10088427&act=url

http://translate.google.com/translat...heter%2Fverden%2F1.7710994&act=url


The basis for the measurement of interviews of a representative sample of 1,000 people. The margin of error is given to be 3.3 percent.



Interesting. Somehow I doubt the EU will accept membership unless Israel can make peace with Palestine.
 
ajd1992
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:56 pm

Well, that's a slight bit of a fail.

Israel is not in Europe and with their human rights abuse record, they aren't likely to get into the EU regardless.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:16 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):
Israel is not in Europe

Neither is Turkey and the British have been pushing them in regardless.
 
baroque
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:27 pm

I suppose Turkey not being in Europe must be why they were for so long known as the sick man of Europe. Don't remember Palestine being the sick man of Europe though. Ever checked where the W border of Turkey happens to be?
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:38 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
Don't remember Palestine being the sick man of Europe though.

What "Palestine"?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
I suppose Turkey not being in Europe must be why they were for so long known as the sick man of Europe.

You must have confused that term "sick man" with something else. It has been used for the UK of 1970s, misgoverned by the Labour and de facto ruled by unions.

[Edited 2011-07-12 08:48:38]
 
PacNWjet
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:43 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Somehow I doubt the EU will accept membership unless Israel can make peace with Palestine.

Similar opinions were aired when Cyprus applied for admission to the EU. Many policymakers and scholars predicted that Cyprus would never be granted membership in the EU until the two halves of Cyprus were reunited. Despite those predictions, the southern portion of Cyprus was admitted to the EU in 2004 yet the island remains partitioned and the so-called Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus persists (the northern portion of Cyprus is not part of the EU). This is not to say that the Cyprus issue is analogous to the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, but only that certain predictions about the EU's desire to see political and security conflicts resolved before granting a country membership are not always accurate.
 
PanHAM
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:44 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Interesting. Somehow I doubt the EU will accept membership unless Israel can make peace with Palestine

Well, that's more the other way round. The first step would be to acknowledge the existance of Israel and their right to exist.

I would welcome Israel to the EU and to NATO. NATO has been the most efficient peace keeping organisation since WW2 and Israel would be an asset in that club.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:46 pm

Seriously, if it would bring peace and prosperity to this region (e.g. Israel and Palaestine sorting out their problems as a precondition and both get admitted, like a stick and carrot approach), why not?
The decade-old conflict cost us a lot, both in money as well as in blood.
It can only become better (and cheaper for us).

Jan

[Edited 2011-07-12 08:48:10]
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einsteinboricua
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:57 pm

The EU, as I remember, was pondering on whether to give Israel a privileged membership (just short of complete EU membership) where Israel can participate in all EU matters. Israel, unfortunately, does not qualify for membership since it's not a European country (both geographically or culturally).

As far as NATO is concerned, I thought only countries located in Europe were eligible? Again, the prospect of privileged partnership come to mind.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):
Israel is not in Europe

Neither is Turkey and the British have been pushing them in regardless.

  
Turkey is definitely in Europe, both geographically and culturally, both requirements to be eligible for EU membership. In fact, Cyprus is more Asian than Turkey and yet Cyprus is in the EU. The problem with Turkey is that it's a predominantly Muslim country, something the EU doesn't view favorably (and then there's the whole Cyprus dispute). Check a map, Turkey has a small region in Europe (East Thrace). That qualifies on the geographical grounds. Consider that there is European culture in it, and you have a second reason to qualify to candidate status.

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Somehow I doubt the EU will accept membership unless Israel can make peace with Palestine.

It might serve as an incentive, but come on, do you really think they will risk dividing "the promised land" in return for better trade with the EU?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:13 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
Turkey is definitely in Europe, both geographically and culturally

A chunk of an Istanbul suburb is in Europe, fair enough. That still does not make them European country, definitely not culturally. Just as possesion of Martinique or Guadeloupe does not make France a Caribbean country or Hawaii the US a Polynesian one.
Gee I wonder why half of Europe spent centuries worth of military effort to kick them out of the Balkans and the gates if Vienna... didn't those fools notice they are Europeans?

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
In fact, Cyprus is more Asian than Turkey and yet Cyprus is in the EU.

Cyprus more "Asian" than Turkey... WTF?    I wonder if you have ever been to these countries to make such absurd claim?   

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):

As far as NATO is concerned, I thought only countries located in Europe were eligible?

Canada? US? Turkey?
 
MoltenRock
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:21 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Interesting. Somehow I doubt the EU will accept membership unless Israel can make peace with Palestine.

Nor should they. Neither should NATO. Sorry, but the way things are now why in the world would Israel be allowed to join NATO? Until they settle their differences neither should be an option. Only once they have implemented any peace agreement should they be considered.
 
PanHAM
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:22 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
where Israel can participate in all EU matters. Israel, un

When I started in the air cargo business, Israel was part of TC2 in the special area called "IATA Europe". That has changed and it is part of Middle East in TC2. Israel is a perfect blend of Europe and the Middle East with a touch of America. I would not object having the country in the EU.
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ajd1992
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:25 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):

Neither is Turkey and the British have been pushing them in regardless.

Half of it is, that's a damn way better than Israel which is wholly in the Middle East.

I don't want Israel in the EU. I don't even agree with them being a country but that's another thread.
 
washingtonian
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:26 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
Turkey is definitely in Europe, both geographically and culturally, both requirements to be eligible for EU membership. I

You really think Turkey is more culturally European than Israel? That's a joke right?
 
baroque
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:26 pm

Wiki:
"Sick man of Europe" is a nickname that has been used to describe a European country experiencing a time of economic difficulty and/or impoverishment. The term was first used in the mid-19th century to describe the Ottoman Empire, but has since been applied at one time or another to nearly every other mid-to-large-sized country in Europe.

So it was first applied to what is now called Turkey. That is what is known as a term having priority.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:37 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
NATO has been the most efficient peace keeping organisation since WW2 and Israel would be an asset in that club.

NATO has turned into a joke. It's members can't come to consensus on when/how to project force, and even if they did, no one but the United States invests enough in its armed forces to sustain combat operations for more than a few weeks.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:49 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):
Just as possesion of Martinique or Guadeloupe does not make France a Caribbean country or Hawaii the US a Polynesian one.

You're looking at this the wrong way. Did France have its origins in the Caribbean? Does it have a LONG (centuries) history in the Caribbean? Does the US have a history with Polynesia?

Look at Turkey, with both the Roman Empire and Ottoman Empire. Look at Ancient Greece and you'll see modern day Turkey as part of it. And I'm not excluding modern day Cyprus.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):
Cyprus more "Asian" than Turkey... WTF?    I wonder if you have ever been to these countries to make such absurd claim?

1. Culturally speaking, it's European. Geographically speaking, Cyprus is in Asia. To me, that makes it more Asian than Turkey.
2. I have not been there, but apparently I'm the only one who has a map or has a decent knowledge of geography. Here, I'll share it:

For those that cannot locate Cyprus, it's the little island on the Eastern Mediterranean in gray (south of Turkey, also in gray save East Thrace in white; west of Syria, also in gray). Notice how geographic Europe is in white. I wonder why Cyprus isn't white?  
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):
Canada? US? Turkey?

Turkey: refer to the above map.

As far as Canada and the US, you might want to read about why they both are in NATO. Again, for those that have not been able to read before they argue, may I present the NATO Archives.
http://www.nato.int/archives/1st5years/chapters/1.htm

I'll quote a part:

Quote:
On the 4th March, 1948, representatives of Belgium, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom met in Brussels to discuss a treaty of mutual assistance. On that same day, the French Foreign Minister, M. Georges Bidault sent an eloquent message to Secretary of State Marshall:
'The moment has come', he wrote, 'to strengthen on the political level and, as soon as possible, on the military level, the collaboration of the old and of the new world, both so closely united in their attachment to the only civilisation which counts'. M. Bidault declared that France, with Great Britain, was determined to do everything in her power to organize the common defence of the democratic countries of Europe. He expressed great gratitude for the economic assistance given by the United States but stressed, as Mr. Bevin had done in previous messages, that the resolve of the European countries to resist aggression could be effective only with American help. He proposed political consultations and the examination of technical problems 'concerned with common defence against a peril which can be immediate'.


As it turns out, NATO is not an American idea. The original members of NATO (the ones that signed the Treaty of Brussels) invited the US to NATO. When NATO was born, Canada was also a signatory as well as a few other members. All other expansions have been solely European members, and I quote Article 10:

Quote:
The Parties may by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty.

Hence the reason why I think Israel will only get privileged membership with NATO.

Now, to not derail this thread anymore, I will not debate the Cyprus/Turkey issue anymore (though you're more than welcome to open another thread on it).
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:49 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):

A chunk of an Istanbul suburb is in Europe, fair enough. That still does not make them European country, definitely not culturally.

Actually it is quite a bit more than just a suburb of Istanbul. There is a whole province located between Greece and Bulgaria.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
That has changed and it is part of Middle East in TC2. Israel is a perfect blend of Europe and the Middle East

So is Turkey.

The one thing about any country joining the EU is that they will have to sign, ratify and implement the EU charter of human rights. So far Turkey has failed with the implementation and I think that both Israel and Palestine will have big problems with this issue as well.

On the other hand, once e.g. Israel, Palestine and Turkey become fully modern democracies (I know that on paper they are all democracies, but Israel is defined as a state with a prefered religion and it´s record concerning other religious and ethnic groups is not exactly stellar, Turkey has an issue with ultra-nationalism, military rule and the supression of ethnic minorities, and Palestine´s governments are simply corrupt) and economically prosperous (maybe include Lebanon in the mix) and you´ll take the wind out of the sails of all the religious and nationalist fanatics.

Jan
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Aesma
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:13 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 13):
You really think Turkey is more culturally European than Israel? That's a joke right?

At least it (still) has a secular constitution, unlike Israel which is akin to a theocracy with a pinch of democracy.

About Turkey joining the EU, the fear is not just that it's a Muslim country, but a Muslim country with more than 70 millions inhabitants, making it the second most populous country in the EU. I don't see them being accepted for that reason, however a "privileged relationship" is fine, and over time, if they evolve in the right direction (which is not a given with Erdogan), they might get in around 2050.

About Israel, there is no way without the conflict being resolved, and it's not the same as Cyprus, or we would be talking about admitting Palestine in the EU. The Turkish question is not off topic, because I doubt Turkey would view kindly Israel being admitted when it is not.

If anything Israel has more chances to become a US state !

And NATO, while less unlikely, NATO being an US animal (currently), there would be fierce opposition from other members.
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luckyone
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:16 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 12):
Half of it is, that's a damn way better than Israel which is wholly in the Middle East.

And they say Americans are poor at geography...either you meant to say "Istanbul" or your ability to read a map and work fractions needs improvement.

Fifty years ago this might have had some traction, as a large percentage of Israeli's are only second or third generation Europeans. Today, however, the political ramifications are probably too great. I can't imagine the two dozen or so countries that do not recognize Israel being eager to do business with the EU that includes Israel.

On a more humorous note, how many bets are there that Israel will not be part of the Schengen agreement???  
 
kaitak
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:18 pm

I don't see Israel having a dog's chance of joining the EU. For a start, the current Israeli leadership is pretty much persona non grata in the EU and their human rights record vis a vis the Palestinians makes membership well nigh impossible.

That said, I would personally (for all the weight that carries!) be in favour of Israel being granted concessions - for example membership of the European free trade area, Open Skies etc, in exchange for concessions leading to a peaceful co-existence with the Palestinians. I don't see it happening with the current Israeli government, but I would hope that a more enlightened, visionary and courageous Israeli government could see the necessity to move forward. Should this happen, the EU should support this.

I think the EU needs to take a strong stance on this and such a strong stance is particularly important if there were to be another Republican administration in the US, because such an administration would be likely to embolden the more regressive, hardline factions in Israel, making a stalemate (at best) more likely.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:43 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 20):
That said, I would personally (for all the weight that carries!) be in favour of Israel being granted concessions - for example membership of the European free trade area, Open Skies etc, in exchange for concessions leading to a peaceful co-existence with the Palestinians. I don't see it happening with the current Israeli government, but I would hope that a more enlightened, visionary and courageous Israeli government could see the necessity to move forward. Should this happen, the EU should support this.

Following the various Middle Eastern and Northern African revolutions and this poll from Israel (if we can trust the figuses), it seems to me that the normal people in this region have enough of religious or nationalist fanatics as well as military rulers.

Jan
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baroque
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:43 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 20):
That said, I would personally (for all the weight that carries!) be in favour of Israel being granted concessions - for example membership of the European free trade area, Open Skies etc, in exchange for concessions leading to a peaceful co-existence with the Palestinians.

Have you read the latest proposals for a law in Israel? From Haaretz here is part of a summary of what is wrong with it.

Q. What is wrong with the law?

1. The measure curbs political freedom of expression in Israel in a number of ways, setting potentially significant – and dangerous – precedents. It allows any individual to, in effect, become a private law enforcement agency, empowered to bring lawsuits against anyone or any group the plaintiff accuses of having taken part in or even simply supported any action the plaintiff construes as a boycott against Israel, against the settlements, or even any individual Israeli, for any reason.

2. The measure erases the legal differentiation between settlements and Israel proper, regarding targeted boycotts against goods from the settlements as actions harmful to the state of Israel itself.
 
ajd1992
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:51 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 19):
And they say Americans are poor at geography...either you meant to say "Istanbul" or your ability to read a map and work fractions needs improvement.

The point I was making was that at least a part of the country is in Europe. Maths and the fact I didn't check a map before making a bit of a daft post aside, Israel is completely separated from Europe whereas Turkey has a small area in Europe.

The EU is the EUROPEAN Union. If you aren't in Europe - you don't qualify. It's like the Republic of Ireland being part of the UK because it borders a part of the UK.
 
EL-AL
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:27 pm

I don't think this survey is something large in scale or serious enough, since it wasn't mentioned anywhere in the Israeli press.

I think it's ignorance who brought those results. Most Israelis don't know what is the meaning of joining the EU it terms of loss of sovernty of the local government to the EU. I bet most of them don't know what NATO really is (damn, not sure if i know it myself!) or what will be the meaning of the IDF joining NATO forces. No government will join Israel to any of those organizations, in the unlikely event that Israel will be asked to join them.

Israel is facing unique challenges that no other country in the world is facing, for that the Israeli government can't allow to a non-Israeli organization from Brussels to dictate it's policy. It may be right for the Netherlands, not for Israel.

No dought that Israel is not in Europe - it's in the middle east. If I could measure the influence that Europe has on Israeli culture, it's very little. Israel is effected, first and foremost, from the middle east (Israeli popular music is basically arab music with hebrew words) and second - from the United States, mainly in TV, movies and music. Europe is not very popular in Israeli culture, and if Israel wasn't geographically close to Europe i guess there wasn't much Israeli tourism to the continent, as Israelis sometimes feel unwelcome in some parts of Europe unlike north america or asia.

The EU doesn't really have a say in the Israeli-arab conflict, it has failed to take part in it throwout the years, while the US did. The EU is considered, for most of us Israelis, as a pro-arab organization (don't know if this stigma is justified or not) and that Europe is biased to the Palestinian side of the conflict, therefore I don't see any major support in joining the EU in Israel.

I do hope that one day Israel can become a part of an alliance of middle east countries, one that may include Turkey.
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Mortyman
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:15 pm

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 24):
I don't think this survey is something large in scale or serious enough, since it wasn't mentioned anywhere in the Israeli press.

Jerusalem Post 12.07.2011:

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?ID=228926&R=R1





A similare survey conducted in 2009 found similare results:

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2009...aelis-want-to-join-eu-survey-finds
 
racko
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:20 pm

You would have a hard time denying Lebanon, Syria, hell even Iraq entry into the EU if you allowed Israel in. Just relying on the fact that they'll stay backward (semi-)dictatorships forever isn't enough. That alone is enough to deny Israel entry into the EU - aside from the fact that a solution to their conflict with the Palestinians seems unlikelier every day.

Turkey will never join the EU. 70.000.000 Turks with freedom of residency in Europe scares people, not to mention that it would make the France, Italy and the UK Tier-3 countries in terms of size and pretty soon it would overtake Germany as well. Just not gonna happen.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:26 pm

So who will have the best chance of joining the EU and NATO:

Israel
Turkey
Russia

Russia is part of Europe too. Even more than Turkey and certainly more than Israel ?
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:42 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 27):
So who will have the best chance of joining the EU and NATO:

Israel
Turkey
Russia

Russia is part of Europe too. Even more than Turkey and certainly more than Israel ?

Agreed, but EU countries fear Russia. I think they'd rather have Turkey in than Russia. Cold War memories still linger, though why they do is beyond me.

I do have a question: what does Israel bring to the table that Turkey doesn't bring and vice-versa for it to be even considered for EU membership ahead of other countries?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
janmnastami
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:51 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 27):
So who will have the best chance of joining the EU and NATO:

Israel
Turkey
Russia

Russia is part of Europe too. Even more than Turkey and certainly more than Israel ?

Excuse me, do you really think that Israel, Turkey or Russia could join the EU in the medium term? Are you serious?
 
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Mortyman
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:32 pm

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 29):
Excuse me, do you really think that Israel, Turkey or Russia could join the EU in the medium term? Are you serious?

I don't think that it will happen anytime soon, no. I have made no such statement. But from what I understand it has been discussed from time to time. Calm down, please ...
 
janmnastami
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:42 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 30):
I don't think that it will happen anytime soon, no. I have made no such statement. But from what I understand it has been discussed from time to time. Calm down, please ...

I'm calm   , but I'm astonished that many users on this forum don't understand what the EU really is and talk about Russia as a future member of the union. I'm not accusing you of that.
 
PanHAM
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:13 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 17):
. Culturally speaking, it's European. Geographically speaking, Cyprus is in Asia. To me, that makes it more Asian than Turkey.

To be precise, geographically Cyprus is Eurasian. The culture is European, ancient Greek. Always has been under that influence.

BTW, there are European countries which are not EU members, like Norway and Switzerland and others, like Iceland, which would like to join.

Turkey will have to do with a preferred partnership.
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iakobos
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:28 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
So it was first applied to what is now called Turkey.

A pinch of salt and a few grains of pepper are needed here my friend...

The Ottoman Empire to which the "sick man of Europe" locution refers included half of present-day: Greece, Macedonia/FYROM, Montenegro, Kosovo, Albania, Bosnia, parts of Bulgaria, the sanjak of Novi Pazar and I might forget something.
The center of gravity of the Empire was Istanbul, European side, that's why the "of Europe".
(and btw the lingua franca of rule and diplomacy was French)
 
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OA260
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:32 pm

The Greeks actually may have saved the EU and the Euro by numerous governments mis management and corruption! The EU now realise that they shouldnt bite off more than they can chew. Turkey being one of them. As for Israel/Morrocco/Lebanon/Syria they will never be EU . Time to stop expansion and deal with what they have got in the club already. Further expansion will be the death of the EU. Now Italy is being watched and if they go down the EU will be in dire straits. Adding new members is the least of their worries now.

As for Cyprus having been there numerous times to both parts its European. I dont need a map to tell me that.
Even the Turkish side is European and the Turkish Cypriots are very different than their Turkish neighbours in Turkey. They will tell you that themselves. They are Cypriots . Anyone can read wikipedia and look at maps but the reality on the ground is what counts.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:18 pm

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 31):
I'm calm , but I'm astonished that many users on this forum don't understand what the EU really is and talk about Russia as a future member of the union. I'm not accusing you of that.

The EU is a union of European nations and a political and economical one, as such if Russia wants to aply for membership ( I don't know ), then it will have to be considered on the same level as other European countries. Russia is part of Europe ya know ... Wether Russia will adopt to the EU rules and regulations is a different matter. It's proabaly decades away if it will ever happen.

You can read more about the EU and possible future members here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_...ement_of_the_European_Union#Russia



What do you mean that members on this forum don't understand this subject ?

[Edited 2011-07-12 15:27:32]
 
Maverick623
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:38 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):

Israel is not in Europe and with their human rights abuse record, they aren't likely to get into the EU regardless.

You want to talk about human rights?

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
Turkey is that it's a predominantly Muslim country, something the EU doesn't view favorably

Maybe when the EU grows up and realizes that people have the right to practice whatever religion they please, I'll buy it.


BTW, Turkey is just as secular in it's affairs, if not more so, than the US.


Sounds like a new version of antisemitism. People need to slow down before we have another mass extermination of a religious and cultural group.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Gemuser
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:02 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 17):

Look at Turkey, with both the Roman Empire and Ottoman Empire. Look at Ancient Greece and you'll see modern day Turkey as part of it.

I was going to stay out of this thread, but the history student and archivist in me rebelled!

The origins of Turkish culture have nothing to do with Europe, the Roman Empire & ancient Greece. It originated in Central Asia and invaded its way into what was then the Byzantine Empire in the 15th century, finally taking Constantinople 1453, thus finally ending the Roman Empire completely. The Ottoman Empire is what they established in Asia Minor (now Turkey), that expand to its greatest limit in the early 20th century.
In fact Russia has a far, far better claim to being the cultural decedent of ancient Greece and the Roman Empire than Turkey.

Gemuser
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janmnastami
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:04 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 35):
The EU is a union of European nations and a political and economical one, as such if Russia wants to aply for membership ( I don't know ), then it will have to be considered on the same level as other European countries. Russia is part of Europe ya know ... Wether Russia will adopt to the EU rules and regulations is a different matter. It's proabaly decades away if it will ever happen.
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 35):
What do you mean that members on this forum don't understand this subject ?

The EU is not just a political and economic union: this is what many users here don't understand. The EU is based on common ideals and principles, the political and economic uonion is a consequence.
 
iakobos
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:30 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 37):
The Ottoman Empire is what they established in Asia Minor (now Turkey), that expand to its greatest limit in the early 20th century.

Sorry, wrong.
By the early 20th C it had shrunk to the minimum.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 37):
The origins of Turkish culture have nothing to do with Europe, the Roman Empire & ancient Greece.

Talking about the House of Osman and the Ottomans and their culture or Turkish culture ?

ps: Roman Empire of the Orient, there was another Empire in Rome.
 
eaa3
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:37 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 26):
You would have a hard time denying Lebanon, Syria, hell even Iraq entry into the EU if you allowed Israel in. Just relying on the fact that they'll stay backward (semi-)dictatorships forever isn't enough. That alone is enough to deny Israel entry into the EU - aside from the fact that a solution to their conflict with the Palestinians seems unlikelier every day.

I doubt they will actually join the EU. But what about an associate agreement like the EEA where despite not being in the EU Israel can participate in the common market. I don't see any advantage to taking Israel into the EU without the counties around it and some sort of associate agreement seems most reasonable.

As a matter of fact I think that Europe should start thinking about inviting all it's neighboring countries (around the Mediterranean, in the Middle East and Russia) into an associate agreement wherein they could participate in the common market, making the single biggest market in the world even bigger. More trade benefits everyone and I believe that it is a great tool to create better relations between people. For example in the Middle East. Furthermore something like this will probably have to be done if Turkey joins because of the amount of trade between the Middle East and Turkey. Although Europe is Turkeys biggest trade partner the ME trade can't be ignored and they would need very comprehensive trade agreements with the rest of the ME, ideally a free trade zone. By making trade with the countries around you a major part of your economy the incentive for war becomes ever smaller given that the cost of war to ones own economy would be huge. This is the case in Europe today because of the deep integration of the EU economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

Also speaking of Turkey, which is indeed a European country, do you guys realize that the Caucuses countries (Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia and so forth) are in Europe and should eventually be eligible to join the EU. It would be quite interesting if for example Azerbaijan and Turkey were to join as then the borders of the EU and perhaps Schengen would extend to Iran, Iraq, Syria and in a sense Turkmenistan. Or in other words way into whats called Central Asia. Furthermore it's interesting that the largest population of the Azerbaijani people actually live in Iran. This would mean that the a large part of Iran would start to consider themselves European. There are important reasons why Europe should be interested in good trade and political relations with these countries. Mainly these are related to gas and oil in the Caspian and in these countries (Azerbaijan). Although theses countries technically are in Europe you could also say that they are basically in Central Asia. These countries are between China, India and Europe and for them to focus on selling their gas and oil to China and India logistically just as reasonable as selling it to Europe. However integration into the common EU market would be a wise step in securing access to these resources which are very important as a diversification away from Russian gas. Russia has a habit of turning it off when countries don't act to their liking. Turkey is also important when it comes to Gas in the Caucuses as transport across Turkey to Europe is the obvious alternative to transport across Russia. Today most gas from the Caucuses that makes it to Europe is transported through Russia. Also allowing Turkey into the EU would allow more access to Oil from Iraq and Iran. Another thing is that despite peoples worries that if there were free flow of 70 million people from Turkey throughout Europe the reality is that Europe has huge demographics problems that can only be solved with more young people entering the economy. One realistic way to do this is to let Turkey or Russia in. The demographic problems faced in Europe are similar to those in Japan which have caused huge stagnation there. In Japan they are simply not able to properly utilize the amount of capital in the economy and are therefore not able to maintain it. This means quite simply stagnation. To avoid this Europe needs imigration and therefore imigration shouldn't be considered a bad thing. It will probably stimulate the economy. This will also lead to Europe becoming more ethnically diverse. This however seems inevitable as native Europeans are quite simply not reproducing enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_people

Geopolitics is a very interesting subject and I have written way to much here  
 
ozglobal
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:43 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):
Well, that's a slight bit of a fail.

Israel is not in Europe and with their human rights abuse record, they aren't likely to get into the EU regardless.

        

Over my dead body. Nothing against individual Israeli people. People are people. But as a nation, well it's a pariah currently.

[Edited 2011-07-12 16:48:26]
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
travelin man
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:51 pm

The difficult question is not so much "does Israel want into the EU and NATO", but rather "do the EU and NATO want Israel"...

I fail to see how the inclusion of the Israeli/Palestinian tinderbox would be beneficial for either organization.
 
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Aesma
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:01 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 36):
Maybe when the EU grows up and realizes that people have the right to practice whatever religion they please, I'll buy it.

So, does Israel realize that better ? You can't even marry someone of a different religion than yours !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Gemuser
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:13 am

Quoting iakobos (Reply 39):
Roman Empire of the Orient, there was another Empire in Rome.

Actually it was just the Roman Empire until Constantine split it in two in the 4th century. It then became the Eastern and Western Roman Empire. When Rome fell in the 6th century the Western Roman Empire more or less collapsed but the Eastern (including territory in Italy & the Balkans) continued until 1452, gradually becoming more "Greek" in culture, including the Greek language supplanting Latin, but it always regarded itself as "Roman", although what that meant after a 1000 years is open to dispute and frequently is.

Quoting iakobos (Reply 39):
By the early 20th C it had shrunk to the minimum.

OK, what territory had it lost by say the late 19th century (admittedly my interest in the area shrinks considerably after 1452)?

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ltbewr
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:18 am

It is clear that Israel does a lot of trade with the EC already, from sending high-tech electronics to food in winter seasons and importing other food products and manufactured goods like cars and machinery so they are pretty much part of the EC economically anyway.

As to NATO, isn't one of the purposes of it is to protect Israel, originally back in the days of the USSR. If there was to be a significant battle there now, you know the USA and some EC countries would back Israel up.
 
Maverick623
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:54 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 43):

So, does Israel realize that better ?

No, they realize it about the same as certain countries in Europe. Which is why this whole "human rights" line is BS. France may not be to the point of building walls around ghettos, but the attitude is there.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 45):

As to NATO, isn't one of the purposes of it is to protect Israel, originally back in the days of the USSR.

It was actually "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down".

Besides, being a part of NATO these days means having the US pay for military engagements. No offense to the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines from NATO countries that have fought and died, but Gates was spot on in his criticism of NATO. It's been the elephant in the room since the 1970s.
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Mortyman
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:57 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 46):
Besides, being a part of NATO these days means having the US pay for military engagements. No offense to the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines from NATO countries that have fought and died, but Gates was spot on in his criticism of NATO. It's been the elephant in the room since the 1970s.

You paint with a broad brush ... Sure he was'nt too happy about Europe as a whole, but there are countries in Europe that provide far more than their size would think. He had alot of good things to say about some of the smaller nations, like Norway and Denmark for instance.
 
baroque
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:31 am

Quoting iakobos (Reply 33):
A pinch of salt and a few grains of pepper are needed here my friend...

The Ottoman Empire to which the "sick man of Europe" locution refers included half of present-day: Greece, Macedonia/FYROM, Montenegro, Kosovo, Albania, Bosnia, parts of Bulgaria, the sanjak of Novi Pazar and I might forget something.
The center of gravity of the Empire was Istanbul, European side, that's why the "of Europe".
(and btw the lingua franca of rule and diplomacy was French)

All true, but it cuts both ways, a large part of the Ottoman Empire was part of what is commonly termed Europe, and a part of modern Turkey is still part of Europe. So more of it was part of Europe and a bit of it still is part of Europe.

BTW, the definition of Europe in terms of continental plates gets messy. Easy to define Italy out of it if you take the boundary at the Alps suture, and then what to do about Spain and Portugal? And for Russia, the Urals have had no real significance as a boundary for quite a long time! Now Kamchatka, that IS a boundary.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato

Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:56 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 44):
Quoting iakobos (Reply 39):
By the early 20th C it had shrunk to the minimum.

OK, what territory had it lost by say the late 19th century (admittedly my interest in the area shrinks considerably after 1452)?

The Balkans (lost during the early / mid 19th century) and Northen Africa, especially Egypt (the Ottoman empire at it´s height used to include Libya, Tunisia and Algeria, the collapse of Ottoman rule there lead to a power vacuum similar to today´s Somalia, which was used by local warlords, who based their economy on piracy, the notorious Barbary Coast Pirates aka Corsairs).

Jan
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