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Tasers, use/policies throughout the world?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:50 am

Hey,

I'd like to get some international opinions in on the usage of tasers. At the time of their introduction, they were supposed to function as an alternative to using ammunition. Nowadays it seems, they've become an alternative to walking. I find it appalling how easily tasers are being used against innocent people and naturally, this subject is closely related to police brutality.

I guess I have just come across way too many youtube videos, news reports and articles in the paper on the matter. The straw that broke the camel's back was this video though

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a70_1304404473

The guy in the car isn't violent or aggressive, yet the ''I'll have to taser you'' line seems to be the go-to move of the cop in question. And it's really such a shame that 'bad apples' like him ruin the image of the entire police force and stain the uniform that his colleagues wear in pride, trying to actually serve and protect their communities. The fact that it's unlawful and should at the very least cost him his job goes without saying.

So what are your opinions/experiences? Are tasers legal in your country and has police brutality become a bigger problem, or have modern technologies (cam phones, internet, youtube etc.) just helped to shed light on something that's been going on for years?

P.S. Similar topics have existed in the past, but nothing as of late. If mods find this thread too much alike to old threads, feel free to delete.
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einsteinboricua
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Tasers, use/policies throughout the world?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:19 am

I'm certainly glad our police force doesn't use tasers or else last summer we might have had plenty of tasered victims without reason.

The problem is not the taser: it's the person behind it. When you have many people just like the police officer who threaten to use it for no reason, that's when it becomes a problem. And unfortunately for us, our police force has tons of officers like that.

On a funny note: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj9REaCzfFM
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futureualpilot
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Tasers, use/policies throughout the world?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:38 am

I don't know the laws regarding signing a citation on the spot/refusing to do so, and/or if refusing to sign it constitutes an immediate need for the person to be arrested, and perhaps it varies with locale. Furthermore, what kind of moron drives without a seat belt on these days? Really? Is it that big of a surprise that you should buckle up?

That being said, it is amusing to me that the guy is willing to stand up to the cop until he mentions the word arrest then the guy can't back pedal enough. Furthermore, you honestly have a problem with the officer threatening to use the taser? He gives the guy plenty of warning, if he did choose to do something, the cop was likely covering his own rear end by warning him several times. Officers have to control the situation, be it a traffic stop, or something more immediately endangering. My dad's partner was killed during a routine traffic stop years ago, yet my dad survived several incidents that he probably shouldn't have walked away from. What you call "brutality" I see as an officer working to ensure the situation is under control. Yes, he could have handled it differently, but I don't know the laws, I don't know their procedures or policies, so I can't venture to guess how. I did notice the mention of using a taser did not occur until he asked the man a few times to step out of the vehicle, and the man failed to comply.

I'm not sure if you've ever worn a vest and gun and been asked to uphold the laws of the land, and deal with idiots and low lifes on a day to day basis, but until you have, you are not in any position to Monday morning QB what an officer does any more than I am to say what someone should have done, or said in a situation I've never been put in.

I personally have no issue with the use of tasers, or other non-lethal weapons. The whole point is to help the officer control a situation, or gain control without killing the person. If it gets to the point where a person is belIigerent or fighting back, things have already gone out of control. I remember when people pushed for more non-lethal weapons to be used, now suddenly they're too brutal? Give me a break. If you disagree with what is going on, or what an officer does, your best bet is to comply and have your day in court, like you are entitled to. That is what it is there for.

I understand there are bad apples in every department, in every city, in every state across the country but I don't think ill of the entire department or of police officers in general when I see one guy acting like a jerk or riding the power pony. I simply think he/she is probably not representative of their department.

[Edited 2011-07-17 18:41:07]

[Edited 2011-07-17 18:44:20]

[Edited 2011-07-17 18:44:46]
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Maverick623
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Tasers, use/policies throughout the world?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:41 am

Quoting something (Thread starter):
The guy in the car isn't violent or aggressive

While I can't watch the video right now, that reasoning is extremely flawed by itself. Resisting is resisting... if the guy had to be put in handcuffs anyways, and he still refused, the cop would have to use some sort of force... and getting in a struggle puts the officer at risk of injury.

A taser is painful, yes, but it's no more dangerous to the suspect than applying pepper spray during a fight.

Quoting something (Thread starter):
Are tasers legal in your country and has police brutality become a bigger problem

Tasers are pretty much standard issue in the US. I'm not going to answer the second question, as it is extremely loaded and will just lead to a flamefest.

Quoting something (Thread starter):
the time of their introduction, they were supposed to function as an alternative to using ammunition.

Electrical stun guns have been around for decades, and were always used on or about the same level as pepper spray. The only difference now is the ability to use it from a distance... so yes, it is very effective for using it on someone with a knife, where as before the only other option was to use a firearm.

But in the US, they were never meant to be solely used for that.
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Tasers, use/policies throughout the world?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:47 am

Hm, I'd take it even one step further and claim it's not necessarily the person behind it, but the courts themselves. Tasers were introduced as an alternative to using a gun. So what the cop in the video said was basically ''You get out of the car now, or I'll have no other choice but to shoot you.'' Not sure that's a very favorable light for the police to stand in.

Cops can carry tasers. But they should be held accountable for each and every time they use them and be prosecuted for every unlawful use.

I'm just shocked by such videos and it makes people think twice if they should really spend their next vacation in the USA where they may get grilled over nothing, or rather enjoy the beaches of Puerto Rico where they'll remain in peace?
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Tasers, use/policies throughout the world?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:55 am

Quoting something (Reply 4):
Hm, I'd take it even one step further and claim it's not necessarily the person behind it, but the courts themselves. Tasers were introduced as an alternative to using a gun.

It is not an alternative to a gun. It is a non-lethal weapon to subdue a subject. It's like a policeman's baton or nightstick. And using it on someone who is not a threat is assault. A gun is assault with a deadly weapon - a whole different kettle of fish.
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Tasers, use/policies throughout the world?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:04 am

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 2):
what kind of moron drives without a seat belt on these days? Really? Is it that big of a surprise that you should buckle up?

While I'd agree with you on that, his behavior doesn't justify or necessitate the officer's reaction.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 2):
you honestly have a problem with the officer threatening to use the taser

Yes. The guy drove without a seatbelt on. That's a law to which there is a fine. And the officer is supposed to enforce that fine on the spot. Going to jail for refusing to sign a citation seems way out of line to me. What do you have left for rapists then, if you give away your hardest sentence to people who don't sign a $10 citation?

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 2):
What you call "brutality" I see as an officer working to ensure the situation is under control.

I didn't call this particular incident 'brutal'. Sorry for the confusion. I just meant to say that the unlawful use of tasers is part of today's police brutality problem.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 2):
I'm not sure if you've ever worn a vest and gun and been asked to uphold the laws of the land, and deal with idiots and low lifes on a day to day basis

I have not. And I would be completely unsuitable to perform such a task. But because I know that, I don't even apply.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 2):
I simply think he/she is probably not representative of their department.

That is the hope. Yet, it does however color the image you have of them. Obviously, you can if you do everything the officer says, avoid getting tasered. But if the cop is overstepping his boundaries, and is asking me to do something he has no right to (like deleting pictures that I took legally), then there's bound to be friction. And the chance alone to end up violated and in jail, for having done nothing illegal is what actually frightens me. Not the use of tasers in their intended capacity.

And that's exactly my problem. America is legally built on a great foundation. You do have fantastic laws and some very competent judges there. But as comforting to know it may be that a cop like him will not get away with such misconduct, it doesn't really make the above described situation easier, where a cop asks you to do something you really don't have to do.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 3):
A taser is painful, yes, but it's no more dangerous to the suspect than applying pepper spray during a fight.

Nearly 700 people have died as a direct result of taser use since they've 'joined' the forces.
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futureualpilot
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Tasers, use/policies throughout the world?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:24 am

Quoting something (Reply 6):
While I'd agree with you on that, his behavior doesn't justify or necessitate the officer's reaction.

Without knowing the local laws or procedures, I'm inclined to agree with you, but perhaps there is a law, or Department procedure to arrest someone who refuses to obey a command or perhaps they have to sign the citation, and refusal to do so steps into another law or territory of the law constituting apprehending the person. I just don't know.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
Going to jail for refusing to sign a citation seems way out of line to me. What do you have left for rapists then, if you give away your hardest sentence to people who don't sign a $10 citation?

It may be extreme, but you'll have your day in court. Fight it then. For rapists? I'd just as soon have their genitals cut off sans pain killers and let them bleed out, or find a splintered piece of wood and let them take it where the sun doesn't shine. Or just drag their sorry rear end out back, put a bullet in their head and move on. We'd be better off without scum like that.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
I didn't call this particular incident 'brutal'. Sorry for the confusion. I just meant to say that the unlawful use of tasers is part of today's police brutality problem.

No worries, I thought that might be what you mean but I didn't want to jump to conclusions or anything of the sort. I don't necessarily think their is a brutality problem, either. I do think that when it does occur, todays modern media devices and social networks make it far too easy for the snowball effect to take place. If it does happen, I should hope the officer is dealt with accordingly, be it fined, fired or thrown in jail themselves.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
Yet, it does however color the image you have of them.

I don't think any less of the pilots at an airline if it has an accident or incident, I don't think less of one religion or another because a priest puts hands on a child or an extremist blows up innocents, etc. etc.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
And the chance alone to end up violated and in jail, for having done nothing illegal is what actually frightens me. Not the use of tasers in their intended capacity.

Agreed, but let me know how arguing with a cop goes for you. Like them or not, your best bet is always going to be to comply and wait for your day in court. Justice may take time but your chance will come.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
Nearly 700 people have died as a direct result of taser use since they've 'joined' the forces.
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Tasers, use/policies throughout the world?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:21 am

Quoting something (Reply 6):
Going to jail for refusing to sign a citation seems way out of line to me.

That's the whole point of having someone sign the ticket. By signing a ticket you are not agreeing that you did the action involved, rather by signing the person is committing to address the purpose of the ticket, either to show up in court or deal with it via the mail (how most are done nowadays). If you don't sign then the officer basically has to take you in so you can deal with the purpose of the ticket (if there wasn't a valid reason the officer would not issue a ticket) otherwise there is nothing the courts could do if you ignored them later as you have not signed and agreed to deal with the violation.

While I did not see a need for the officer to react the way he did (I would think the officer would just explain that the guy had a choice to either sign or why, if he did not sign, he would have to be taken in), but we did not see the first part of the ticket process so the driver may have already been told or done something earlier to elicit the reaction from the officer. Also it may have been a set up as the guy was filming the thing and may have wanted to defy the officer and not sign to see what he would do and "get it on tape" (so to speak).

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Maverick623
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Tasers, use/policies throughout the world?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:47 am

Quoting something (Reply 4):
Tasers were introduced as an alternative to using a gun.

No, they weren't. So you can stop with that comparison.

Quoting something (Reply 4):
So what the cop in the video said was basically ''You get out of the car now, or I'll have no other choice but to shoot you.

No, he basically said "You're under arrest, so comply or I will make you comply".

Quoting something (Reply 4):
I'm just shocked by such videos and it makes people think twice if they should really spend their next vacation in the USA where they may get grilled over nothing, or rather enjoy the beaches of Puerto Rico where they'll remain in peace?

You do realize Puerto Rico is part of the US? And that if you obey the law, you will be left in peace?

Quoting something (Reply 6):
his behavior doesn't justify or necessitate the officer's reaction.

Yes, it does. Failing to comply with an officer's legal demands is called resisting. It's a crime.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
That's a law to which there is a fine.

And so is:

Quoting something (Reply 6):
refusing to sign a citation

Which is an arrestable offense.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
I just meant to say that the unlawful use of tasers is part of today's police brutality problem.

And yet you have provided no evidence of unlawful taser use, other than your blind hatred for law enforcement.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
Nearly 700 people have died as a direct result of taser use since they've 'joined' the forces.

And all 700 would have died in a conventional struggle. Your point is invalid.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:57 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 9):
Quoting something (Reply 4):
I'm just shocked by such videos and it makes people think twice if they should really spend their next vacation in the USA where they may get grilled over nothing, or rather enjoy the beaches of Puerto Rico where they'll remain in peace?

You do realize Puerto Rico is part of the US? And that if you obey the law, you will be left in peace?

I assume he was referring to the fact that in PR there are no tasers (that I know of so far) so if you happen to do something that goes against the law, you'll probably be subdued by other methods. Pepper spray is a favorite as are water cannons.

That's not to say police brutality is rare. For more info, look up the student strike of 2010 (we're on Wikipedia as well).
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Maverick623
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:09 am

I finally got home and was able to watch the video.

I see nothing wrong with what the cop did. The driver had shown his clear intent to give the cop a difficult time.

So, I'll say it again, on the record and per this video:

Quoting something (Thread starter):
The guy in the car isn't violent or aggressive, yet the ''I'll have to taser you'' line seems to be the go-to move of the cop in question

You don't have to be violent or aggressive to be convicted of resisting and obstruction. In fact, most assaults against cops start out as passive resistance, and escalate when the suspect realizes he can't get away. There's a ton of videos where the second the cop says "step out of the car", the previously cordial driver floors it. Several times this has led to cops getting dragged hundreds of yards.

So yeah, when some smart-ass guy starts mouthing off and not being compliant, it raises enough red flags to where the officer will take preemptive measures to protect himself.



I also find it disgusting that you would accuse this officer of assault, and completely ignore the fact that the driver broke 3 laws: Not wearing a seatbelt, obstruction (for not signing the ticket), and resisting (for not getting out of the car when told to).
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:39 pm

Just watched it too... everything legal, but I think the cop should have been more lenient and professional.

But, when he initiated arrest, by all means, taser is used as a tool to comply (and oh boy does it hurt!)

OP, you need to research the difference between lethal and less than lethal force, at least in the US. Tasers and firearms are apples to oranges. You will NEVER see a situation where an officer can use a taser OR firearm interchangeably. If the suspect poses serious bodily harm or death to the officer or others, the firearm is always used (if not, the officer is WRONG.) Tasers are used for compliance, stopping a suspect from fleeing, etc, not something we use firearms for.

You can debate what is legal or right in your country, you are entitled to your opinion, but you cannot state that this officer was legally wrong, or tasers are interchangeable with firearms, etc. And once again, although the driver was a dick, I think the officer should have given *1* warning about going to jail. Had he done that, I would had no problems with what the officer did (judgmentally)
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:00 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 9):
No, he basically said "You're under arrest, so comply or I will make you comply".

Which, depending on how the person was acting prior to the point we see on the video, was not necessary based on what we see in the video. As I say, we don't know the full story, but just going off what we see, the officer did not NEED to react as he did. He could have simply explained that by signing the guy was not admitting guilt, he was merely promising to appear before the court if needed, and that if he did not sign then the officer would be obligated to take him in (under arrest). If the guy then refused to signed the ticket, after understanding the consequences of such an action, then yes, the what officer did would be appropriate. And again, it is very possible that the officer did explain all this prior to the start of the video.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 9):
Quoting something (Reply 6):
refusing to sign a citation

Which is an arrestable offense.

Refusing to sign is *not* an "offense" for which one can be arrested. However, not signing can lead to being arrested because it is the only other option available (other than just throwing away the ticket which isn't going to happen).

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):
I finally got home and was able to watch the video.

I see nothing wrong with what the cop did. The driver had shown his clear intent to give the cop a difficult time.

I disagree, *based on what we see on the video* the driver merely stated he was not going to sign but then, when confronted with the consequences, signed immediately. That is not resisting, it maybe giving the officer a "difficult time" in some manner but "intent" can be ascribed be the actions that follow and it is obvious that the guy had no intention of "resisting".

I myself have not wanted to sign a ticket before and the officer talked to me about what it meant and what the options were. Nothing resisting, nothing escalating. Everything was good (and I did sign   ).

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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:49 pm

Police officers shooting their gun is extremely rare here in France, so yes the taser introduced some unfortunate "trigger happiness". But at least there is a camera on all tasers.
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:56 pm

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 2):
I personally have no issue with the use of tasers, or other non-lethal weapons. The whole point is to help the officer control a situation, or gain control without killing the person.

Same here. Tasers are great in situations where the alternative would generally be a physical altercation. A taser can diffuse a situation before it becomes a situation.
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:44 pm

Thanks for your opinions so far.

I find it quite surprising, I want to say, how acceptive some people seem to be of authoritative force and ignore the most basic principles of a democracy. Luckily, US law is based on reason rather than on ''gut feelings'' and nothing of what some people here seem to be in favor of, is even anywhere near legality.

But as I said.. a law won't bring back any of the 700 lost lives. And even if I didn't die and did eventually manage to prove my case in court and was paid severance money.. I'd honestly much rather forgo such an experience in the first place, than going home with a couple thousand dollars in my pocket. Investigations against such criminals in uniforms should put these people out of duty quick and restore the immaculate reputation any police force should have.

Here's an example of how petty problems can be dealt with alternatively..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRRTlrfTw0s&feature=related

Aggression is best be met with calmness. The cop understood the bad situation the driver was in, understood why he was angry but did his job in the most professional manner and wrote him a speeding ticket. He could have easily contributed to having this situation escalate but instead he defused it with zen-like calmness. What a great guy  

[Edited 2011-07-18 14:54:32]
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futureualpilot
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:59 pm

Quoting something (Reply 16):
I find it quite surprising, I want to say, how acceptive some people seem to be of authoritative force and ignore the most basic principles of a democracy.

As law abiding citizens, why shouldn't we? What principles of democracy are at stake here? You seem to be already biased against officers and what they do to enforce the law, no matter what their actions are. Don't be so quick to point a finger, as others have illustrated you don't know what happened prior to the start of the video.

Quoting something (Reply 16):
But as I said.. a law won't bring back any of the 700 lost lives.

What would you have the officers do? Let people do as they please, and shrug their shoulders when a crime occurs? If you choose to resist/interfere with an officer when they're trying to do their job, you have to be willing to accept the consequences of your action. Unfortunately, in extreme cases this can mean death. How many situations that would have ended with gunfire have been avoided by the use of tasers? I doubt you'll find a reliable figure, because it is probably too many to keep track of. Stop being a fear monger and think about the other side of the issue. This reminds me of someone who would call the fire department if your house was on fire, then whine about the water damage to your burned out house, or perhaps move under the approach or departure path of an airport then complain about noise. As citizens we've charged these men and women with enforcing the laws of the land. We have to defer to their better judgement and training and if we feel an injustice has occurred during the course of whatever events transpire, deal with it appropriately when the time arises.

Quoting something (Reply 16):
Aggression is best be met with calmness. The cop understood the bad situation the driver was in, understood why he was angry but did his job in the most professional manner and wrote him a speeding ticket. He could have easily contributed to having this situation escalate but instead he defused it with zen-like calmness. What a great guy  

Here, I 100% agree with you, kill them with kindness always seems to work best. Unfortunately it doesn't always work. The situations could have been completely different before the videos started, too.

[Edited 2011-07-18 16:02:26]
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:38 am

"Officer, please don't tase me illegally. Or I will be forced to tase you back."
 
Maverick623
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:34 am

Quoting something (Reply 16):
how acceptive some people seem to be of authoritative force and ignore the most basic principles of a democracy.

Neither the US nor the UK are a democracy. The US is a constituional republic, and the UK is a parliamentary monarchy. In fact, excluding the NSA and their dumb tricks, US citizens have FAR more rights than UK citizens. In the UK, you can be stopped and searched for absolutely no reason. In the US, probable cause is necessary to even initiate a stop... and believe when I say I'm against any abuse of that system.

But when probable cause is established, and someone is obviously committing a crime and then refuses commands, they deserve whatever it takes to get them to comply.

A decent society simply cannot exist without a balace of rule of law and individual rights. If you refuse authroitative force in the proper situations, you descend into anarchy.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:45 am

Quoting something (Thread starter):
I'd like to get some international opinions in on the usage of tasers.

There have been many many problems with the usage of tasers in Australia.

A quick Google search brings up multiple pages of news reports, all to do with people dying as a result of being tasered, this, IMHO, is reason enough to ban any further use of them in Australia.

Australia’s first Taser death occurred in 2002 when a 56-year-old NSW man died 12 days after he was shocked with a Taser. The man received three Taser shocks after threatening police with a frying pan. According to his death certificate, the man died of a heart attack. He is said to have had a pre-existing heart condition and hepatitis C, and to have been a schizophrenic.

Underlying/pre existing condition or not, the taser was responsible for his death, had it NOT been used, he would still be alive.
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Maverick623
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:38 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):

A quick Google search brings up multiple pages of news reports, all to do with people dying as a result of being tasered, this, IMHO, is reason enough to ban any further use of them in Australia.

Because reporting about the hundreds of thousands of people being tased and not suffering ANY ill effects doesn't sell papers.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):
had it NOT been used, he would still be alive.

Oh, you're a medical professional? You can accurately diagnose that a taser shot can cause heart failure 12 days later? Even when the effects stop immediately when the current is removed?

And had the taser not been used, the officers would have put themselves at risk of hep-C, they most likely would have had a long struggle with the man, and the man probably still would have died from the stress of being in a fight.

Or would you also suggest that the police not bother trying to arrest someone because they're resisting? After all, had they not even bothered to show up...
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TheCommodore
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:49 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
Because reporting about the hundreds of thousands of people being tased and not suffering ANY ill effects doesn't sell papers.

Rubbish.
The papers are full of crime related arrests, every day of the week.Some are with tasers and some are not !

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
Oh, you're a medical professional? You can accurately diagnose that a taser shot can cause heart failure 12 days later? Even when the effects stop immediately when the current is removed?

Funny thing don't you think, he was alright before he was tasered.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
Even when the effects stop immediately when the current is removed?

50,000 volts and heart conditions don't go well together
BTW, you do not have to be a medical professional to work that one out do you ?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
Or would you also suggest that the police not bother trying to arrest someone because they're resisting? After all, had they not even bothered to show up...

He had a frying pan as a weapon !
If law enforcement officer (and there was more then one) cant disarm a single person wielding a frying pan, then they really should look for another profession.
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PanHAM
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:11 am

Amazing. The guy offered to sign the ticket, after he realized that he cannot escape police brutality. This guy was an ordinary person, not violent, except if the line " I don't sign this" is considered violence.

I dont know what the procedures are in the US, is the siging of a traffic citation considered an acceptance of guilt or just an acknowledgement that the ticket was handed over and that the ticket could still be appealed in court?

If the matter is the case, alright, sign it and hand it over to the lawyer. Still, a citizen must have the right to say NO to a police officer. No police office should have the right to taser or otherwise harm a person that simply refuses to sign a document.

Such a siutuation would be unthinkable in Germany, here we could even call this cop an idiot, which this particular one certainly is, and the cop would not beat him up. The driver calling a cop an idiot would have to pay a nice heavy four digit fine, depending on his income, but he would not get arrested, nothing.

Ther's a clear difference, here, police is de-escalating situations, obviously in the US , police is escalating harmless situations like the one on the video. "Having fun", regardless if the officer had fun 8which he onbvously had, or whether it was a sarcastic remark that the driver had "fun" additionally escalated the situation. The cop should be sent to a shrink to get his psyche tested. He should not be released to the public in a uniform, not even on a leash.

To answer the question, in Germany, the use of taser weapons is very restricted and only allowed for use by SWAT teams in Bremen and a few other states. Not for regular police. use and possession by private persons is not allowed and would be considered as possession of an illegal weapon.
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:25 am

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 17):
As law abiding citizens, why shouldn't we? What principles of democracy are at stake here? You seem to be already biased against officers and what they do to enforce the law, no matter what their actions are. Don't be so quick to point a finger, as others have illustrated you don't know what happened prior to the start of the video.

You are right in saying I don't know the whole story. But infering from the man's behavior throughout the entire video, and the reaction of the police officer, I'm unfortunately not given much room for speculation. The situation seems pretty clear to me. But, I want to note that I am saying that as a commentator only. As a judge, the officer has to be treated as innocent until his guilt is proven, free of doubt.

And the principle of 'freedom of citizens' is at stake. The cop didn't do his job, or enforced a fine. He was bullying the guy because he was afraid the guy was making fun of him. The cop didn't want to be made fun of and wanted to teach the guy a lesson, intimidate him, maybe even punish him and show him who has the upper hand. As a cop, you can't have emotions. You're a uniform, you're a functionary. It doesn't matter how you, personally, feel about things. If you take things personally and let stuff get to you, you chose the wrong job.

And yes. People should always be extremely wary of the institution of the police. They should have as much power as needed, but as little power as possible. And I can see how some people misunderstand such statements as me advocating for anarchy. Which clearly, I am not. But you have to have principles and there are only two ways of looking at it. Either, you assume everybody is innocent until proven guilty, or they're already guilty until proven innocent. It's the prosecuters job to prove your guilt, not the people's obligation to justify themselves before others.

What the cop did was unlawful. He would have had to read out the guy's rights and explain to him the consequences of not signing the ticket. He missed to do that, therefore everything after that didn't happen on legal grounds. As a citizen, I should not have to be grateful I haven't been put to jail yet because I am just a maggot and the officer is my overlord. Maybe that's the case in North Korea. But not in a state of law.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 17):
if we feel an injustice has occurred during the course of whatever events transpire, deal with it appropriately when the time arises.

But injustice such as shown in the video should not be happening in the first place. And even if you do have a chance to appeal your case in court, what are the chances you can prove your case unless you've conveniently videotaped it? And what have cops that have been found guilty of police brutality been charged with? Most of them don't even go to jail because the loss of their career is deemed punishment enough by many courts.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 18):

"Officer, please don't tase me illegally. Or I will be forced to tase you back."

As concise as this line appear at first glance, this is (if I understand you right) exactly what my problem is all about. It is simply intolerable that citizens are left at the cop's mercy, no matter how arbitrarily he chooses to enforce his will.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 21):
US citizens have FAR more rights than UK citizens. In the UK, you can be stopped and searched for absolutely no reason. In the US, probable cause is necessary to even initiate a stop... and believe when I say I'm against any abuse of that system.

You are absolutely right! And that's the reason why such incidents outrage me! America does have a great constitution and laws that protect their citizens and grant them their freedoms. However, there seems to be a vast discrepancy between ''what's on the paper'' and ''what happens in real life''.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 21):
A decent society simply cannot exist without a balace of rule of law and individual rights. If you refuse authroitative force in the proper situations, you descend into anarchy.

Why doesn't every country have the same problems then? Are Germany, France, Holland, Spain, Switzerland, Argentina, etc. anarchies?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 24):
He had a frying pan as a weapon !
If law enforcement officer (and there was more then one) cant disarm a single person wielding a frying pan, then they really should look for another profession.

I agree, but at least he could make his case stating that they were acting in self defense (however unjustified). The guy in the video did not even make any attempts of getting anywhere near the cop. He didn't even want to get out of the car lol It's bullying. Nothing less than that. And that has nothing to do with the profession of a police officer.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
Ther's a clear difference, here, police is de-escalating situations, obviously in the US , police is escalating harmless situations like the one on the video.

I don't know if you're a spotter, but if you go take pictures at Ramstein Air Base it's only a matter of minutes before army personnell will approach you (behind the fence, where their jurisdiction ends) and command you to leave the place in a rather demanding voice. If you refuse, because you aren't doing anything illegal, all they have left is calling the German police. 9/10 times they won't even show up because they know there's nothing to be done, and if they do they ask for your ID and inform you that you cannot climb over the fence. That's all.

But we have to be careful not to stereotype Europe vs. the USA. I think it's always a matter of whom you ask, not so much where they live. The only difference is probably Germany's experience with a totalitarian police force not 70 years ago. When you talk to Germans about police and force, they don't think of a safer Germany, they think of George Orwell. Another reason could be the fact that the German crime rate is much lower than the crime rate in the USA. If you're afraid of criminals, but don't break the law yourself, you are much likelier to argue on behalf of police force. It serves your self interest (crime gets stopped easier, I, as a law abiding citizen, have nothing to be afraid of).

But that's a fallacy. We discuss principles here. And not hopes, wishes and dreams. People don't need to be kept on a short leash to behave. Grown ups are capable of disciplining themselves. It's not a coincidence that less people smoke weed in the Netherlands or Portugal than in countries where it's illegal.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
The cop should be sent to a shrink to get his psyche tested.

Indeed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder
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PanHAM
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:58 am

Quoting something (Reply 26):
I don't know if you're a spotter, but if you go take pictures at Ramstein Air Base it's only a matter of minutes before army personnell will approach you (behind the fence, where their jurisdiction ends) and command you to leave the place in a rather demanding voice. If you refuse, because you aren't doing anything illegal, all they have left is calling the German police. 9/10 times they won't even show up because they know there's nothing to be done, and if they do they ask for your ID and inform you that you cannot climb over the fence. That's all.

I am not a spotter but I have edged in my memory how US Air Force military police handled a guy on one of those open days at the FRA Air base, thatwas way before 9711 and the German guy had crossed a line which marked the public a and the air side restricted area. That German, used to German police so far argued and they subdued him instantly. All they could do is kick him out and turn him over to German police who released him instantly.

I would not spot at Ramstein or any other US property in Germany but i am sure glad that their juroisdiction stops exactly at the fence. I could not care about the frustration they might have.


Quoting something (Reply 26):
But we have to be careful not to stereotype Europe vs. the USA. I think it's always a matter of whom you ask, not so much where they live. The only difference is probably Germany's experience with a totalitarian police force not 70 years ago.

Absolutely correct. But police in other European countries are far from the US situation.

I do accept that in the US they may have a different situation than in Europe, with more violence. But when i look at that vieo, where an average middle class guy gets arrested for refusing to sign a ticket, even though he changed his mind when he realised that trouble was looming, then this is absolutely unacceptable.
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:13 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
I do accept that in the US they may have a different situation than in Europe, with more violence. But when i look at that vieo, where an average middle class guy gets arrested for refusing to sign a ticket, even though he changed his mind when he realised that trouble was looming, then this is absolutely unacceptable.

And had the officer, as required by law, informed him in a calmly manner that refusing to sign the citation would result in him getting arrested, he would have signed the citation as well. What the cop did was, besides being illegal, childish, immature, unthought through and nothing but an animalistic gut reaction.

I used to go out with an EK flight attendant. She told me that certain nationalities don't take instructions from females and become borderline violent when asked to put on their seat belt. They are trained to defuse such situations and go on with life. The guy is angry at the uniform, not the person wearing it, is what they tell you in their 'training college'. Maybe some cops should consider enrolling there..

And yes, European law enforcement (Russia excluded) is much more timid. The Simpsons offer the following explanation as to why..[4:28- end]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d9J9MwaPJQ

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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:19 am

Quoting something (Thread starter):
I find it appalling how easily tasers are being used against innocent people and naturally, this subject is closely related to police brutality.

If you have refused to listen to a police officer you are not innocent anymore and have broken the law. The taser is a great tool which has probably saved the lives of civilians and law enforcement. Listen to what a police officer tells you and you don't have any problem.
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:39 am

Quoting something (Reply 28):
The Simpsons offer the following explanation as to why..[4:28- end]

good one, LOL  
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 29):
If you have refused to listen to a police officer you are not innocent anymore and have broken the law

what happens to the deaf? Will they be tasered till they can hear again?

No offence and I don't mean you personally, but if someone would write that in a German forum he'd be called the N word and it's not Afro American.
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:26 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 29):
If you have refused to listen to a police officer you are not innocent anymore and have broken the law.

What?? The law follows the law, not the person. If the officer is not acting legally then he's just a noisy problem, not anybody you need to comply with. What proves this is when the subject is also an undercover officer. Then the law actually gets followed, doesn't it. A police officer can use force within legal boundaries. Outside of those boundaries, the officer is just another citizen and you can defend yourself against him, tase him or whatever. Of course, this is theoretical and not completely realistic.


This is also true in military command. Your commanding officer needs to be followed for lawful commands. The law supports the commands of the person WITHIN THE LAW who has highest rank. Given illegal orders, it's actually your responsibility to disobey and as necessary, put a stop to the illegal behavior, using the relevant legal authority. During an actual crime or threat to the innocent, the subject / subordinate actually has legal command, and can arrest the criminal official, regardless of rank. Again, this is theoretical. Even the POTUS can be arrested for a crime, even assault or something like that.

[Edited 2011-07-19 09:34:09]
 
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:44 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 30):
what happens to the deaf? Will they be tasered till they can hear again?

Because a deaf guy will just take it and not, gasp, say he's deaf?

What you don't realize is at the DMV when you are getting your license, you are consenting to a lot to be able to drive on public roads. People are too ignorant to learn these rules, try to be smartasses against cops, then whine all day when they're forced to do something they agreed to!

And once again, this cop did NOTHING illegal. Yes, I think he should have given exactly ONE warning, but regardless, look up US laws before you're saying this cop broke the law. This isn't Europe, I go over there and respect your laws, can't you do the same here?
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:09 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 32):
his isn't Europe, I go over there and respect your laws, can't you do the same here?

I do. I drove a lot of miles in the US, far more than 200K and never was stopped by a cop. No speeding and no parking ticket. Amazing, I even lived there in the mid 70s.

That does not stop me from critizising matters like that. I don't understand why you guys do not stand up against trhe police state that was created over the past 1 or 2 decades. Didn't you notice that? May be I have he advantage agaoinst you younger guys to knpow the difference, how it was up until the - say end 90s vs today. What you have is an over blown legal system that feeds itself. It needs cops like that guy who does not accept a change of mind by a simple average middle class guy who never might have been in such a situation and changed his ind when he realized that this cop is an ~~~hole. Not accepting the change in mind is criminal and the cop should be removed from the force.

You have to be able to say NO in a polite way to a cop, that is exactly what the man did. That's not a crime, that is exercising your citizens rights, If you are not allowed to refuse a signature and risk death for that (a taser might kill you) then you have a problem in your country.

If you come here and rent a Porsche and ecide to speed up and do not see the speed limit 8yes, we have that too) and are over 40 km faster than allowed, it might be that an unmarked car follows you, They will pull you over, they will not arrest you, they will not hand-cuff you and anyone else in the car. They will politely ask you to take the passenger seat in their car and watch the video they just made. Since you do not live in Germany, they will most likely ask you for cour credit card and you will be about € 300 or so lighter., They wish you a good time, enjoy and drive slow and safeöly.

That's it. No hjandcuffs no jail, no taser, just friendly words.

It can be so easy and guess who showed us the direction after 1945?

Exactly, the USA and its western allies. Somehting got extremely wrong in the US society and someone should tell you guys.

.
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:24 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
I find it funny how some people seem to hate cops so much

So, pointing out that this cop would rather pull out his taser like he is dealing with some junkie rather than calmly explain why he would have to arrest the guy for not signing the ticket is hating the cops?.

Nice going there.  
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
Show me where someone said this. Even more, tell me how this cop broke any rules

I guess you find perfectly acceptable that instead of discussing the issue calmly with a non violent person, he decided to go for the taser right away.
 
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:02 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 33):
I don't understand why you guys do not stand up against trhe police state that was created over the past 1 or 2 decades.

I've never run into an unreasonable cop. I don't think this cop was "created," discretion in this case poor, perhaps, but the driver was being a douche so I honestly do not feel bad for him one bit, honestly.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 33):
Somehting got extremely wrong in the US society and someone should tell you guys.

I'm fine, most my US comrades are fine. I'd feel oppressed in Europe, wear you can't wear crosses in public (or something to that regard, please don't nit-pick just get my general point.) My point, I'm fine with my society, just as you probably are fine with yours. I've got problems with yours and you have a few with mine. But that is fine. You control your government, good! I will not go over there and complain about it. It is YOURS!  
Quoting Acheron (Reply 34):
So, pointing out that this cop would rather pull out his taser like he is dealing with some junkie rather than calmly explain why he would have to arrest the guy for not signing the ticket is hating the cops?.

Nice going there.  

Why don't you look at your quote that I replied to. You were saying people had "hard ons" for cops. For what? I even said this cop was probably too aggressive, but he was within his legal boundaries. HARD ON? Come on... That is when I just turned it around ridiculously like you did.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 34):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
Show me where someone said this. Even more, tell me how this cop broke any rules

I guess you find perfectly acceptable that instead of discussing the issue calmly with a non violent person, he decided to go for the taser right away.

Did you even read what I said? Here, I'll quote it for you:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 12):
everything legal, but I think the cop should have been more lenient and professional.

That was my first response. I've said this in just about every post, so I'll bold it, please read it: I think the cop SHOULD HAVE GIVEN A WARNING, but everything he did was LEGAL. If you want to argue what should and shouldn't be legal, that's different. But I already pretty much agreed with you like 5 times, I'm only saying that the cop was well within his rights.
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:54 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 33):
You have to be able to say NO in a polite way to a cop, that is exactly what the man did. That's not a crime, that is exercising your citizens rights, If you are not allowed to refuse a signature and risk death for that (a taser might kill you) then you have a problem in your country.
Quoting Acheron (Reply 34):
I guess you find perfectly acceptable that instead of discussing the issue calmly with a non violent person, he decided to go for the taser right away.

PanHAM, Archeron, can you please agree that the video is not showing the entire event and that we (you) do not actually know why the officer is reacting as he does? And that there may be some reason for his actions?

I mean my whole thing is, and I have said it in every post on this topic, that I do not know why the officer reacted the way he did. Now going off what we see, yes, the officer is abrupt and the actions appears unnecessary.

HOWEVER we do not know what happened prior to the start of the video and quite obviously a lot has already happened (the guy was obviously pulled over, approached by the officer, the officer would have explained why he was stopped and what the infraction was. The officer would have then asked to see license, car registration, and other required documentation (proof of insurance is common), gone back to his car and verified things (no outstanding warrants, the registration is current and belongs to the car and the person, etc). Often (this is what has happened to me) the officer would have come back to the car and explained what is going on and why after reviewing everything why he is going to ticket the person (rather than say giving a warning) and what the consequences are and what the gentleman must do to close this issue out. Then in this case it appears the ticket is literally printed up in the patrol car and the officer had to go and get it (I have only seen ticket books or a handheld ticketing unit).

At any point in this process is it perfectly possible that the guy in the car was rude, aggressive, in full denial of doing anything wrong, made statements to the officer that he would not sign anything because "I did nothing wrong!" whatever. We just don't know. When things like this are said the normal thing that happens are the police will explain to you what will happen and what the options are. For all we know the guy did say "I ain't signing nuthin' cuz' I didn't do anything wrong" to which the officer may have responded calmly "Well son, if you don't sign then I will have to take you in. All your signing does is promise that you will show up in court if required to do so. You can contest it there." Maybe the guy then said "No way! I don't want to waste my time!" To which the officer then responded "Look fella, I don't have time for this, either sign the ticket or I will have take you in, now. So if you continue to refuse to sign, I will order you out of your car and place you under arrest for the violation and you can deal with it at the station.... Please, just sign it and be on your way, and I'll be on mine." And maybe the guy then said "OK, OK, I understand, I'll sign."

If that happened, which is not unreasonable, I can fully understand the officers actions in the part of the video we see.

To put it another way, if we are shown a ten second video of you cussing out a person, yelling insults at them, and hitting them, are we to just believe that you are unreasonable jerks? Even though the video cut out the first part where the person hit your friend and called you derogatory names, and question your allegiance to your race? Uhh, no, becasue we don't know what really happened.

The fact that people here are using this video to make huge, broad assumptions and accusations of the state of all law enforcement in the USA is silly. Please consider your comments and make sure they are properly phrased and focused. I know that no nation is perfect and that not all law enforcement situations are "good" but to disparage anyone let alone and entire nation's law enforcement practice based on this video is ridiculous.

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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:59 pm

Here's an incredible video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEN9d2wOdOc

State Trooper (tries to?) arrest undercover sheriff's deputy. To me this is thought provoking because the law is what matters. Imagine they had tasers... you practically need a law degree to know exactly who can use a Taser here.

"Gimme my license, bitch!" lol that's strong words there.

[Edited 2011-07-19 13:06:21]
 
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:37 pm

''He's a jackass, he had it coming'', is not a legal defense.

Just some food for thought..
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:50 pm

Quoting something (Reply 38):
''He's a jackass, he had it coming'', is not a legal defense.

But not signing the ticket is. A warning is only optional. I said personally I don't feel bad because the guy was a douche but once again:

Driver did not sign ticket. End of story. Cop was justified.

What don't yall get? I've said time and time again I think it was poor judgment but it's perfectly legal, get over it
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:38 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 39):
What don't yall get?

I don't know what the 'all' in the 'y'all' don't, but I for my part don't get why you claim what the officer did was legal. In Canada the law states

''The RCMP in May 2010, released new stun gun restrictions, indicating officers are only permitted to use the weapons in cases where a person is causing bodily harm or an officer has "reasonable grounds" to believe a person will "imminently" harm someone.''

And I am very sure the American law will not deviate much from the Canadian ruling.

I shall find it for you. *

Oh and P.S. The reason some of ''us'' are shocked about the video is not even the exact legal situation and if the cop overstepped his rights. ''We'' are shocked about how casually some people seem to handle violence and how condoning they are of authoritative oppression.

* Edit:

Found it and so much on all the 'stun guns were never supposed to be used alternatively to guns' comments.

''The Use of Tasers by Police Officers should be limited to circumstances under which the use of lethal force would also be permitted.''

Source: http://www.law.stanford.edu/program/centers/scjc/library/tasers.pdf


Some other interesting links:
http://taserwatch.newsvine.com/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2009/03/18/f-taser-faq.html

[Edited 2011-07-19 15:01:59]
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:55 pm

Quoting something (Reply 41):
''The RCMP in May 2010, released new stun gun restrictions, indicating officers are only permitted to use the weapons in cases where a person is causing bodily harm or an officer has "reasonable grounds" to believe a person will "imminently" harm someone.''

If you resist arrest, tasers are authorized. That is US law, not Canadian law.

Quoting something (Reply 41):
''We'' are shocked about how casually some people seem to handle violence and how condoning they are of authoritative oppression.

That's not what you said before...

Quoting something (Reply 38):
''He's a jackass, he had it coming'', is not a legal defense.

Just some food for thought..

...but fine, I'll respond to what you said anyway. I do not see this as authoritative. I see this driver as a dumbass who shouldn't have been a dumbass and although I think the cop should have given a warning, I feel 0% sorry for this FOOL. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, don't be a retard to cops. Call that authoritative? Maybe I guess, probably just a societal difference. I don't go on the boards here and complain about how the Luxembourg railroad workers pick on tourists because its their damn country and I'll listen to their rules and pay that BS 50 Euro fine.

And one more thing, if you think our cops are authoritative, go to Iran. Don't throw out those words when there are real problems in this world. Maybe "a bit more restricting than they should be," but authoritative? No.

Quoting tugger (Reply 42):
No, you can not be arrested for "not signing a ticket"

Ok, not signing the ticket is pretty much not accepting "bail" for the offense of speeding. I was talking cause effect: don't sign ticket, go to jail FOR SPEEDING. But thanks for the clarification, I kinda breezed through that, maybe it'll make sense more for our foreign posters

[Edited 2011-07-19 14:57:25]
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:15 pm

Quoting something (Reply 41):
And I am very sure the American law will not deviate much from the Canadian ruling.

While each police department will have different policies regarding "use of force", here is an excerpt from the SDPD policy:

Quote:
The force matrix is broken down into the following five levels:

1. First Level
– Officers attempt to gain compliance by talking or otherwise
communicating with the subject, explaining what the subject is to do and giving
the subject the opportunity to comply with the officer's demands.

2. Second Level
– Officers seek control by using unarmed tactics, such as escort,
compression and pain compliance techniques. Controlling force is used when the
subject passively fails to respond to verbal direction.

3. Third Level
– Officers seek to control a subject%u2019s active resistance by using lesser
force options in addition to neck restraint, chemical agents, distraction
techniques, and Taser.

4. Fourth Level
– Officers defend themselves or others against a subject's assault or
threat of assault with the use of defending force or lesser force options.
Defending force includes strikes with hard impact and personal body weapons.

5. Fifth Level
– Officers defend themselves or others against the subject%u2019s lifethreatening
behavior with the use of deadly force.

Officers need not attempt to gain control over a subject using a lesser force level
in the matrix when circumstances confronting the officers dictate that a greater
force level is necessary and reasonable. A combination of force options may be
appropriate to gain control of a subject.

For example, an officer would not be expected to use unarmed tactics against a
subject who is extremely violent or armed with a weapon. Likewise, if an officer
attempts to use a control hold on a subject and it is not effective, the officer may
go to a greater force level to gain control or use a combination of different force
options from different levels. Disengagement or de-escalation is a tactic that an
officer may employ in an attempt to resolve the situation. If an officer does not
have adequate recourse to safely control a situation, or if disengagement or deescalation
would assist in resolving a situation with a lower force level, an
officer may disengage from the incident or de-escalate the force option.
Disengagement or de-escalation may require an officer to move to a tactically
sound position and wait for additional resources. Disengagement or deescalation
may not be possible. Factors that will affect an officer's force options
and tactics include but are not limited to the following, which can pertain to
officers and/or subjects:

AGE
AVAILABILITY OF OTHER OPTIONS
CONFINED SPACES
GROUND FIGHTING
DISTANCE BETWEEN SUBJECT(S) AND OFFICER(S)
INFLUENCE OF ALCOHOL OR DRUGS
INJURY/DISABILITY
LOCATION/TERRAIN/LIGHTING CONDITIONS
MULTIPLE SUBJECTS/OFFICERS
NATURE OF OFFENSE
PROXIMITY TO WEAPONS
SIZE
SKILL
SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE/IMMINENT DANGER
STRENGTH/ENDURANCE
http://www.sandiego.gov/police/pdf/forattach.pdf

Tugg
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:18 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 43):
It doesn't take a rocket scientist, don't be a retard to cops. Call that authoritative? Maybe I guess, probably just a societal difference.

Philosophical. Not societal. That would imply that everyone in the US agrees with you.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 43):
I don't go on the boards here and complain about how the Luxembourg railroad workers pick on tourists because its their damn country and I'll listen to their rules and pay that BS 50 Euro fine.

''We'' don't care about the laws in the USA. We don't care if a speeding ticket is $5 or $5000. It's the violence and the helplessness of the person in the video that we have a problem with. That should simply not be happening. Nowhere in the world.

I'm not sure what experience you've made in Luxembourg, I'm not from there yet I apologize on their behalf if something you found unfair happened to you. But I actually have a hard time believing that they pick tourists. Luxembourg is such a tiny country, everybody there seems to speak at least four languages. They're not really in a position to be arrogant like that.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 43):
And one more thing, if you think our cops are authoritative, go to Iran.

Relevatizing doesn't justify anything. The fact there's no food Somalia doesn't make the people in North Korea any happier.

America is intervening in Libya because they object to what the 'forces' there are doing to the Libyan people. Europe doesn't come over to the US to beats this cops ass. At which point I'd understand your critique. ''We'', are merely pointing out that we object to what we see, hear and read. And it shocks us, because we think very highly of the US and wouldn't expect such things to happen in your otherwise wonderful country. And like I said.. I am pretty sure that at least half the Americans would agree.


First of all, thanks a lot tugger for the find!

Quoting tugger (Reply 44):
3. Third Level
– Officers seek to control a subject%u2019s active resistance by using lesser
force options in addition to neck restraint, chemical agents, distraction
techniques, and Taser.

I guess with a lot of good will this section could be interpretated on behalf of the cop. But let's be honest here.. saying ''No, I'm not getting out [of the car]'' is not an active resistance which necessitates the use of force. He didn't commit a felony and was fleeing the crime scene. And if you read through the various cases in the Stanford University article I linked above, you'll see that handsome settlements have been paid in the past in similar cases because courts seemed to come to the same conclusion.

[Edited 2011-07-19 15:28:34]

[Edited 2011-07-19 15:29:01]
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:26 pm

Quoting something (Reply 45):

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 43):
It doesn't take a rocket scientist, don't be a retard to cops. Call that authoritative? Maybe I guess, probably just a societal difference.

Philosophical. Not societal. That would imply that everyone in the US agrees with you.

OK agreed

Quoting something (Reply 45):
It's the violence and the helplessness of the person in the video that we have a problem with.

Ok, guy chooses to speed. Guy chooses to be smartass. Guy chooses not to sign ticket. I don't call that helpless, I call it being an idiot, playing with fire, and getting burned. I do sympathize with criminals more than the average guy here, believe me, but I feel nothing for this guy. I think we will have to agree to disagree.

Quoting something (Reply 45):
Relevatizing doesn't justify anything. The fact there's no food Somalia doesn't make the people in North Korea any happier.

While I agree with what you are saying, I believe "authoritative" is still an exaggeration, by a long shot

Quoting something (Reply 45):
America is intervening in Libya because they object to what the 'forces' there are doing to the Libyan people. Europe doesn't come over to the US to beats this cops ass. At which point I'd understand your critique. ''We'', are merely pointing out that we object to what we see, hear and read. And it shocks us, because we think very highly of the US and wouldn't expect such things to happen in your otherwise wonderful country. And like I said.. I am pretty sure that at least half the Americans would agree.

Why we talking about Libya? I'm not for that. And I still am shocked myself that you are shocked at all this. Do you think the driver was behaving the way he should have? I don't think the officer made the best call, but I'm by no means shocked, nor would I be shocked if the driver got "shocked" if you know what I mean  
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:04 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
I feel nothing for this guy. I think we will have to agree to disagree.

I don't ''feel'' anything for the guy either and I can understand, on a human level, where your pissed-off-ness stems from. But those are, what I call 'gut reactions'. I don't let my emotions color my judgment and let principle prevail. Even if that means I have to side with a~~holes sometimes.

I, on the same token, am against capital punishment as wel. And I also don't believe rapists should be burned alive. But that has nothing to do with my having any sympathy for such abortions. It's just political ideals that arise from what I fundamentally believe in.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
While I agree with what you are saying, I believe "authoritative" is still an exaggeration, by a long shot

You know what, it may be. If I 'throw' the word out for this situation, it will inevitably dilute the meaning of the word and leave me word-less for ''worse'' situations. I concede that. But.. that doesn't change the fact that a somewhat innocent guy is being bullied around by an authority. Attribute our disagreement to my insufficiently sized vocab. I'm sure there are nuanced terms of ''authoritative'' I am not aware of.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
Do you think the driver was behaving the way he should have?

I don't think there should be a protocol in place that tells people ''how to behave''. There are legal boundaries, yes. But he didn't overstep his, or at least not to the point where the cop's reaction to his conduct would have made any sense to the rational human.

When the cop says ''You wanna have a little fun.. huh..'', he practically gives away what he's all about. He wanted to assert his dominance over him. And that's what I previously described as immature, childish and unprofessional. He's a functionary. He could be replaced by a robot. He has to put his emotions in a drawer the moment he puts on his uniform and he can if he wants pull them back out when he lays the uniform off. In the meanwhile he has to serve his duty.



Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
nor would I be shocked if the driver got "shocked"

I'm a pacifist. I don't condone violence. Ever. If two people want to beat each other up, call it ''boxing'' and they can find people who pay to watch them do that, then they can knock themselves out, to continue the punning. In that department, my opinion doesn't and shouldn't count. Who am I to tell other people what to do.

But the situation is different when it comes to cops. They are public workers. Civil servants. And they serve a very important function. In a 1-0-1 situation it's not me against another guy (as in a boxing match), it's me against a representative of the law. And as such, there's no room for to throw tantrums as you wish. And that would be my stance if the cop was just being a d*ck. But if he is virtually given the right to violate citizens, then that is just intolerable and unacceptable.

But you're in the military. You don't put your own life over what you perceive to be ''the common good''. Whereas my focus lays on individuality. And this is not to say one is better or worse than the other. But in this case it isn't me against the common good. In this case it's me against the ''law'' in the widest sense. And I don't put the ''law'' on a pedestal above the people, ie let them do what they want (-> authoritative). The only thing that counts is me, as a free citizen.

I guess it all boils down to I rather see a crime unsolved than an innocent person behind bars. But this would digress off the thread at hand. How we, as a people, should deal with revenge and punishment as a whole. (it begins with me having a problem that the gov't does things they discourage other people to do.. like applying violence to ''have a little fun'' with someone that you don't feel peachy about. And saying ''he can do it, he's a cop, you're not'' -> authoritative. And that's the difference between ''authoritative'' regimes and ''states of law''. The one uses arbitrary punishments, the other applies the same law to each and everyone fairly and equally.)

And the cop is no punisher. He's a functionary. So function, or look for another job.
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:12 pm

Quoting something (Reply 49):

I read your post entirely. Like I try to say to everyone else I debate with, I respect your opinion, but I'm just gonna have to disagree. You used logic and reasoning, I am trying to do the same, and we just have a disconnect, and I think there is nothing left for me to say. I do believe we are a lot more common than you think, as I agree with most that you say, we just disagree on the most basic principle here.
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:15 pm

Quoting something (Reply 49):

I guess it all boils down to I rather see a crime unsolved than an innocent person behind bars.

The problems arise when you view people who are obviously guilty of a crime as "innocent", and when you don't even know what's a crime and what's not. Also, you have a habit of "convicting" any police officer that tries to enforce the law.

Remember, criminals really don't care about evading the law. If you let everyone go without proof of guilt, you simply cannot arrest anybody, unless you witness them committing the act. Even then, with this video, you watched someone commit an arrestable offense, and STILL wanted the cop to simply let him go and mind his own business.

I understand your pacifist views, but they are unrealistic. Anarchy simply doesn't work.

[Edited 2011-07-19 16:50:47 by srbmod]
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:28 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 50):
I read your post entirely. Like I try to say to everyone else I debate with, I respect your opinion, but I'm just gonna have to disagree. You used logic and reasoning, I am trying to do the same, and we just have a disconnect, and I think there is nothing left for me to say. I do believe we are a lot more common than you think, as I agree with most that you say, we just disagree on the most basic principle here.

I don't even think we do. You want peace and public order. So do I. You think it takes a father-like figure to slap the silly kids on the wrist. And I think that's just not necessary. The country is not falling apart because the cops are understanding, rather than commanding. Have a little more trust in the people!
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:39 pm

Quoting something (Reply 53):
The country is not falling apart because the cops are understanding, rather than commanding. Have a little more trust in the people!

Well, I've worked with some jerks, I hardly trust people lol. Maybe it'll invalidate everything I said, but in 2 weeks, I'll have my degree in Criminal Justice and just interned with a police department. Bias? Maybe lol. I think it's more of seeing it from their view honestly. I do, however, see the importance of police presenting a good image, because I have worked with and seen great officers, and have seen them disliked by certain people because of the actions of another cop somewhere in the US.
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:49 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 51):
Remember, criminals really don't care about evading the law. If you let everyone go without proof of guilt, you simply cannot arrest anybody, unless you witness them committing the act. Even then, with this video, you watched someone commit an arrestable offense, and STILL wanted the cop to simply let him go and mind his own business.

I understand your pacifist views, but they are unrealistic. Anarchy simply doesn't work.

You are oversimplifying things. Nobody wants to let criminals get away with what they did. The guy signed the ticket immediately when he was informed about the consequences not signing would entail. Everything that happened from then on was simply bullying, was the cop trying to show him who's wearing the pants. Even if I were to stipulate that in this particular situation (a pull over) the cop is indeed the one wearing them, the behavior of the guy in the car just doesn't justify his aggressive reaction.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 55):
Well, I've worked with some jerks, I hardly trust people lol. Maybe it'll invalidate everything I said, but in 2 weeks, I'll have my degree in Criminal Justice and just interned with a police department. Bias? Maybe lol. I think it's more of seeing it from their view honestly. I do, however, see the importance of police presenting a good image, because I have worked with and seen great officers, and have seen them disliked by certain people because of the actions of another cop somewhere in the US.

Well my cousin used to work for the NYPD and is now employed with the MTA police. My uncle is the police director of a European capital I shall remain undisclosed. And again, it's not like I don't understand their situation and all the genetical waste that they have to deal with on a daily basis. But just as you have to expect 20 people pissing their pants on a DXB-HYD-DXB flight, that is something that just comes with the job (and one of the many reasons why I'd never even think about doing it!). And as much as you may sometimes wish certain creatures wouldn't exist, you can't let your emotions dominate your job. One thing leads to another and before you know it, you are arresting decent people for taking pictures (legally!) at KEWR. Or you pull the taser on people who simply refuse to do something they, to their best knowledge, believe to be entitled to refuse.

I don't look at this from a subjective point of view, and I don't try to understand that cops are just humans too. I ask myself, in the construct of a country, what should be the police's position? What should they do, what shouldn't they do, what do we need them for and what do we need to supply them with (that includes intangibles such as rights..) to perform their duty most efficiently. And within that idealistic world, pulling the taser on a corny guy who's only said ''no'' to you is a big no-no.
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RE: Tasers, Use/policies Throughout The World?

Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:09 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 21):
US citizens have FAR more rights than UK citizens. In the UK, you can be stopped and searched for absolutely no reason.

Sure about that? Police in the UK are expected to exercise discretion and common sense.
Not saying they all do, however its also about what, to use the US expression, 'probable cause; means, is interpreted.
If Police see someone, in the wake of a reported crime, who roughly matches a description of the suspect, (given that people, especially when in shock or a trauma of some kind, can not always be that certain or accurate, then they would be expected to stop this suspect.
Would that be 'probable cause?'
I'm betting it would be,

And a majority of complaints about harassment/excessive use of the power to stop and/or search, are in the sort of situation I outlined above.
What if an experienced officer notices someone who is loitering, hanging around, maybe seeming tense, or who when they see an officer exhibits body language that shows they wish the cop had not seen them?
Experienced officers should develop 'coppers nose' for this sort of thing.
Can such an Officer in the US not stop, even just to talk to, maybe question someone like that?
Would it be 'probable cause?'

I doubt if the differences are, in reality, that different either side of the Pond.

To the taser question, in the UK at least, the idea that a Taser is a substitute for a firearm is not the case.
Many police forces have found a different solution for that, the baton round dispenser, as long used in an anti riot role in Northern Ireland.
Though in the case of the mainland, deployed by firearms officers who if anyone is going to substitute lethal firearms, it's going to be them.
Used against say someone wielding a knife, I remember one case when firearms officers at the domestic incident, used baton rounds to bring down someone wielding a shotgun.

As we know, Baton Round can be lethal too, so can a taser, so can a truncheon.
If misused, if used against someone with a pre existing medical condition.

Tasers are used by some UK forces by Firearms Officers, other forces have issued them more widely.
But they are no lethal firearm substitute, think about it, how can they be? Their range is very short for a start.
If anything, they would as a truncheon/baton supplement with a longer reach.

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