deltaownsall
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China Bullet Train Derails

Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:55 pm

"A CHINESE bullet train derailed on Saturday with two of its carriages falling off a bridge but the number of casualties was unknown, the official Xinhua news agency reported."

http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking...ws/Asia/Story/STIStory_694001.html

Not many details yet, so let's see how this develops...hopefully not as bad as it sounds.
 
deltaownsall
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RE: China Bullet Train Derails

Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:05 pm

 
racko
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RE: China Bullet Train Derails

Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:31 pm

The one on the right (in the Telegraph picture) looks like a CRH2 (modified Shinkansen).
 
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DocLightning
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RE: China Bullet Train Derails

Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:49 pm

Quoting deltaownsall (Thread starter):

Not many details yet, so let's see how this develops...hopefully not as bad as it sounds.

From the photos it looks pretty bad.

Derailment wasn't the cause. The cause was a collision between a stopped train and the train approaching from behind. The derailment was the (unsurprising) result.

There should have been several safety systems in place to prevent this from happening. This should be far less likely than a mid-air collision between two cruising airliner. Something is seriously wrong with their HSR system if this is even possible.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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comorin
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RE: China Bullet Train Derails

Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:10 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
There should have been several safety systems in place to prevent this from happening. This should be far less likely than a mid-air collision between two cruising airliner. Something is seriously wrong with their HSR system if this is even possible.

A case of trying to run before you learn how to walk?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: China Bullet Train Derails

Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:26 pm

This is just my conjecture: I think that the whole system was built hastily. People and resources were put under immense pressure with unreasonable deadlines. The price of failure is imprisonment and the consequences thereof.

So it got built hastily, probably shoddily, and the people running it were undertrained.

Now, I don't KNOW that's what happened, but that's my guess. I'd bet I'm right, too.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
racko
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RE: China Bullet Train Derails

Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:20 am

I wouldn't rush to judgement. Accidents happen. Where humans are at work, they make mistakes. There is no fail-safe technology. It is entirely possible that this is a systematic failure because of a rushed implementation, but it is also possible that this was just an accident that happened because of a chain of innocent mistakes that can happen everywhere.

Edit:

Here's what I could gather from a bit of research.

There was a CRH1 (Derivate of Regina EMU built in Germany for Sweden) on the line followed by a CRH2 (Derivate of Shinkansen E2-1000, Japan). The CRH1 was hit by a lightning and apparently disabled, most likely resulting in an immediate brake application until it came to a stop. It then was rear-ended by the CRH2.

This shouldn't have happened as high-speed lines are protected by automatic train control systems (ATC), which China has (CTCS).

What should have happened is that upon the disablement of the CRH1

- the ATC either (if still working) should have transmitted its problems to the ATC system
- or, if it was disabled by the lightning strike, the signal to the ATC should have been lost

both should result in an immediate emergency brake application by the following CRH2.

If the ATC was taken out by the lightning strike as well, this would've resulted in a lost ATC signal in the CRH 2 -> Emergency brake.

So either the ATC malfunctioned, or the brakes in the CRH2 malfunctioned.

[Edited 2011-07-24 04:54:26]
 
jessbp
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RE: China Bullet Train Derails

Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:37 am

Wow. I'm with doc on this. The whole thing seems rushed, which is causing problems. If I recall, this isn't the first problems this line has experienced. A few weeks ago there were reports of passengers being stranded for several hours due to power issues. To follow with doc's thinking, stranded passengers complained that the stations were not fully fitted out, with a lack of facilities. One woman had to walk into the nearest village just to use the toilet.

It seems that china is trying to run before it can walk.

Jess B
 
B2443
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RE: China Bullet Train Derails

Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:04 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 6):
So either the ATC malfunctioned, or the brakes in the CRH2 malfunctioned.

According to sohu.com (in Chinese), there were 4 other trains (2 to Wenzhou and 2 to Fuzhou) en route to the accident spot but they were stopped in time.

And BTW, this line is NOT a high speed line, with a max speed of 180 km/h, unlike Beijing -Shanghai's 300 km/h or Wuhan-Guangzhou's 350 km/h.

Quoting jessbp (Reply 7):
To follow with doc's thinking, stranded passengers complained that the stations were not fully fitted out, with a lack of facilities. One woman had to walk into the nearest village just to use the toilet.

True maybe but this alone shouldn't have caused the accident.
 
Okie
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RE: China Bullet Train Derails

Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:35 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 6):
What should have happened is that upon the disablement of the CRH1

- the ATC either (if still working) should have transmitted its problems to the ATC system
- or, if it was disabled by the lightning strike, the signal to the ATC should have been lost


I was going to extrapolate on this earlier racko. After extensive work dealing with Chinese written programing and PLC logic I would speculate that they were only relying on the signal to be transmitted if there was a problem. Obviously could not happen with no electricity or loss of back up. The concept that the next section would have to be in communication, functional and clear would escape their process.
I am not trying to take anything away from the Chinese but they are several generations behind in fail-safe logic and safety largely due to no Tort laws.
I am just speculating of course from my previous experience

Okie
 
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Aaron747
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RE: China Bullet Train Derails

Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:41 pm

Recent adventures in nuclear plants notwithstanding, Japan really did achieve fail safe standards with its high speed rail systems. In nearly fifty years of Shinkansen service there have been no serious derailments and not a single service-related fatality. All of this while maintaining on time performance measured in tenths of seconds!
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