NorthstarBoy
Topic Author
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The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:35 am

I have to admit I'm sitting here feeling sick, disgusted and not a little bit outraged.

Why? Per this article I read on MSN , a 14 year old Mexican-American kid living in Mexico was working for the cartels as a hitman and got caught. He was charged and convicted with four counts of murder plus kidnapping and other charges. Now here's the the sick, disgusting, outrageous and absurd part: because he was a minor he was charged as a juvenile and will spend....get this....three years in prison. For comparison, under the US system, he'd be charged as an adult and if convicted would spend the rest of his life in prison.

So, my wonderment is, why cant the US government pressure Mexico to reform it's system so that when punks like this are caught committing multiple homicides, plus abductions and other crimes, they can look forward to spending the rest of their natural lives behind bars where they belong. If enough of these Jr hitmen are sent to prison for the rest of their lives....no chance to get out...ever, it might make other kids stop and think about going to work for the cartels. Sure, the money is glamorous, but we need to instill a sense of fear in these kids that tells them that the 3000 dollars they make from the cartel won't do them any good in prison.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but something needs to be done about the absurd notion that someone can kill as many people as they like and only recieve a slap on the wrist because they're under eighteen.

The sad thing is that these kids seem to place more value on money than they do on human life, which leads me to wonder where the parents went wrong in raising kids who are nothing more than little gun toting psychopaths. I can tell you, when I was 14, no amount of money in the world could have convinced me to take another life. Maybe I'm just unusual.

All I know for sure is that something's got to be done.
Rant over.
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sccutler
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:25 am

Meh.

Mexico is a sovereign nation. Their laws are their laws, they make them in accordance with the priorities they set.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
kiwiandrew

RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:36 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
Now here's the the sick, disgusting, outrageous and absurd part: because he was a minor he was charged as a juvenile and will spend....get this....three years in prison. For comparison, under the US system, he'd be charged as an adult and if convicted would spend the rest of his life in prison.

No, the sick , disgusting, outrageous and absurd part is this:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
under the US system, he'd be charged as an adult and if convicted would spend the rest of his life in prison.

A 14 year old is not an adult, how does it benefit anyone to put a 14 year old in prison for the rest of his life.

BTW , why haven't you posted a link to the story?
 
something
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:42 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
So, my wonderment is, why cant the US government pressure Mexico to reform it's system so that when punks like this are caught committing multiple homicides, plus abductions and other crimes, they can look forward to spending the rest of their natural lives behind bars where they belong.

Because Mexico is a sovereign nation. Besides, the root of Mexico's problems right now is not the lack of adequate jail sentences.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
If enough of these Jr hitmen are sent to prison for the rest of their lives....no chance to get out...ever, it might make other kids stop and think about going to work for the cartels.

You think a person who is capable of committing such atrocities is impressed by a jail sentence? The price of life is cheap in Mexico. That goes for the life of the victims as much as for the lives of the drug lords.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
we need to instill a sense of fear

They can and do ''get hit'' by rivaling gangs all the time. They are more than willing to put their own life on the line for a few bucks.. and a jail sentence is going to make them change their mind?

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
which leads me to wonder where the parents went wrong in raising kids who are nothing more than little gun toting psychopaths

You live in a much too romantic world. Their parents are just as messed up and probably encourage their kids to do such things. There are people that sell their own children into slavery, child prostitution or even to have their organs harvested. Encouraging your son to become a well-paid hitman is a rather positive ambition in those circles.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
I can tell you, when I was 14, no amount of money in the world could have convinced me to take another life.

And now it can? Because if so, the cartels are hiring!

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
All I know for sure is that something's got to be done.

The US gov't can pay the Mexican gov't more than what the drug bosses do. Problem solved.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
EddieDude
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:18 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
For comparison, under the US system, he'd be charged as an adult and if convicted would spend the rest of his life in prison

U.S. laws apply in the U.S. Mexican laws apply in Mexico. Different countries, different systems. I personally find it very questionable from a human rights' perspective that minors can be tried and sentenced as adults. But hey, what do I know? I only have a law degree with honors from the law school of a leading Jesuit university in Mexico and an LL.M. degree from the University of Chicago Law School, and am a partner with a top tier law firm in Mexico.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
why cant the US government pressure Mexico to reform it's system

For the very same reason your neighbor can't come inside your house and tell you how to shag your spouse, raise your kids, feed your pets or park your car.

Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace. Quoted from Mexico's first indigenous President in the second half of the XIXth century. But it seems some Americans have the absurd notion that their government's role is to push other countries to model their laws and systems in a manner that is convenient to the interests of the U.S.A. or that conforms to the beliefs of Americans.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
I'm not sure what the solution is, but something needs to be done about the absurd notion that someone can kill as many people as they like and only recieve a slap on the wrist because they're under eighteen

Yes, parents in the first place and the education system in the second place can do something about this: it is called prevention through education

According to the article I am quoting below, this kid is an American citizen. Maybe we should look for the failed upbringing of this kid in his country of citizenship?

Now, if you wonder what the solution is in a bigger scheme, I think part of it is in the hands of the U.S. government. The U.S. could do more to stop the smuggling of guns to Mexico. http://www.ammoland.com/2011/07/26/f...icated-in-gun-smuggling-operation/ It is very well known that the weapons that cartels use to commit their crimes come illegally into Mexico from across the border.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
BTW , why haven't you posted a link to the story?

Here it is:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/bloo...actually-14-year-old-american-boy/

The kid declared: "I did it drugged and under threat that if I didn’t, they would kill me”. I am not sure if this is true or not, but I just think it is very easy and also very dangerous to pass judgment upon an unknown person without knowing all of the circumstances surrounding the known facts.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
ltbewr
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:22 am

I am quite sure 'justice' will happen within weeks even in what will be a kid's jail with him dead by either others from rival gangs or even the guards killing him for money for the gangs who people he killed.

A growing problem around the world is dealing with younger minor aged persons doing major crimes. Sometimes they are intentionally chosen to do deadly crimes due to them less likely to face long jail time. There is also the collapsing moral and social standards that has ended a more innocent child and teen lifestyle. Graphic Videogames, TV shows and movies have also desensitized kids from death and killing as well as glorifying violence. There is also the desire for money to get 'stuff' or even for themselves or their families to survive so they and their families compromise by rationalizing the committing of deadly crimes.

Here in the USA over the last 20 years we have changed our laws to deal with this change in society by putting in place ones that treat murder by young offenders as young as 13-14 as adults and with penalties including life sentences and in segregated areas of adult prisons. In Mexico, they still want to treat children as children, probably in part from pressure from the RC Church and many in the poor and working class communities who would be effected as well as going along with international treaties. Of course, the USA either doesn't sign such treaties or disobeys them anyway due to 'sovereignty' rights due to our 'special' circumstances.
 
something
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:45 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 5):
Here in the USA over the last 20 years we have changed our laws to deal with this change in society by putting in place ones that treat murder by young offenders as young as 13-14 as adults and with penalties including life sentences and in segregated areas of adult prisons. In Mexico, they still want to treat children as children, probably in part from pressure from the RC Church and many in the poor and working class communities who would be effected as well as going along with international treaties. Of course, the USA either doesn't sign such treaties or disobeys them anyway due to 'sovereignty' rights due to our 'special' circumstances.

You say that the exposure of children to violent media content is in part to blame, then say in the next sentence that the US has adapted their laws to that. Laws like this one?

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-27/u...-makers-interactive-games?_s=PM:US

And treating minors as minors has nothing to do with the church. It is a judicial principle. Minors have not yet developed the same intellectual maturity to understand the consequences, severity and ramifications of their actions. Same principle as pleading insanity. Or why a premeditated murder entails a different sentence than involuntary manslaughter.

What matters is what went on in your head when you did it and the circumstances under which it happened. The crime itself is secondary.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
mham001
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:47 am

So what. The Norway shooter will be free in 21 years. And he was fully cognizant of what he was doing. Their country, their rules.
 
Geezer
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:32 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
So, my wonderment is, why cant the US government pressure Mexico to reform it's system so that when punks like this .........................................................

NorthstarBoy;

The key words here being,................why can't the U.S. Government pressure Mexico to reform it's.........................

It would be about like stacking "BB's"; or trying to thread a needle with a wet noodle; the person attempting it would be told to "get lost" !

Believe me, stories like that affect me ( and many others ) just like they affect you; but we must "suck it up" and remain realistic; That doesn't mean we must "forget about it". When I read a story like that, I think, something must be done; I also think, tomorrow, or the next day, the people who hired this "mini-assassin" have seen that it "works".........so day after tomorrow we can expect two dozen more just like him, maybe even a few 13 yr old's. It's how people like this think.

But what to do ? I'm a great believer, for every problem, there is a solution; it may take a while to find an appropriate solution, we may be obliged to try many solutions before finding the one that "works", but ultimately there IS a solution.

I was about 11 yrs old while we were fighting the "enemy" in the S. Pacific during WW 2; The "enemy" was very "resourceful", and they would "try" ANYTHING to kill Americans; at one point, they came up with a "tactic"..........all of our bases, camps, etc, were obviously patrolled by many sentries; "They" would creep up, observe the "situation", and when "they" saw a "handful" of Marines, two very young "children" ( some as young as 10 yrs old ) would come out of the jungle with their hand over their heads, wearing little more than a diaper, acting very frightened, and wanting to "surrender"; it actually worked a few times; when they got near the sentries, ( who were obviously armed with rifles and Thompsons ), one "youth" would suddenly bend over, and the other would commence blasting away with the machine gun strapped the other one's back. At that time, Marine combat training had not "thought" to train Marines to shoot 10 year olds; I might add........that quickly changed !

War is hell, as they say; a bullet from a 10 yr old is just as deadly as one from a 25 yr old; in war, it's KILL or BE KILLED; preferably, kill "him" before "he" kills you. So, our very first step is, we must "define" our present "status"; when armed assassins cross international borders, with the express intent to kill people on the other side.........it's called WAR ! That's the very first thing which must be made very clear.

So........remembering this "precedent", what are we to do ? We don't have our Marines on the Mexican border, ( at least not yet ), but we do have a lot of very fine Border Patrol Officers there, and they only have ONE big problem; it's called "leadership"; believe me, the Border Patrol "leadership" locally is very capable; How do I know this ? ( I'm always asked for my "sources"; here they are; a year ago in May, I attended a wedding on South Padre Island, Texas. The bride ( and her entire extended family ) are all 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation Mexican-Americans; I am not at liberty to discuss the groom, but suffice to say, he is "very close to me"; I became very well acquainted with many of the relatives; to make a short story even shorter........I liked them, and they liked me ! I met about a half dozen "folks" who worked for the Border Patrol, several who worked for "I.C.E.", and one young man who worked for the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture ! Keep in mind, out of 150 people at this wedding, exactly 5 were "Anglo"; the rest are Americans of Mexican decent, all were multi-lingual, and all shared my views on "emigration" to this country; you do it LEGAL. just as some of them, and many of their relatives had. The day before the "big event", I accompanied several fellows across the border to purchase "beverages"; I personally met the Border Patrol, and the folks who "check things" both ways; it was a very UNIQUE experience. I must briefly "touch" on a very "sensitive" subject; we didn't talk a whole lot about "politics", but enough was said that I gathered this much; almost all were members of a "different" political party than I am. ( I was aware of this before I left Indiana ); but they all shared my "views" on, shall we say, the pitiful LACK of leadership from the VERY TOP. ( If you get my drift )

So, back to our mini-assassin problem; assuming we presently had "sufficient" leadership from "the very top", ( or assuming we acquire such leadership in the near future, I believe this problem could be greatly alleviated by "border diplomacy"........say, a "mutual-aid" agreement, kind of a "you want this, and we want that" sort of thing.

Let's face it...........we are not going to send our esteemed Secy. of State down to Mexico and start ordering them to "do as we say"; and we are sure not going to start dropping bombs on Mexico; ( anyone attempting that can expect my fervent opposition ! ) But it CAN be accomplished; and it's all just a matter of "leadership".

Thank you for reading;

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
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DocLightning
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:37 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):

Why? Per this article I read on MSN , a 14 year old Mexican-American kid living in Mexico was working for the cartels as a hitman and got caught. He was charged and convicted with four counts of murder plus kidnapping and other charges. Now here's the the sick, disgusting, outrageous and absurd part: because he was a minor he was charged as a juvenile and will spend....get this....three years in prison. For comparison, under the US system, he'd be charged as an adult and if convicted would spend the rest of his life in prison.

Has it occurred to you that he may have had very little choice? He's 14, so clearly he's been groomed for this for a while. It's not as if he was a grown man who decided to take this up as a career. Why waste a life when he could be reformed?

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):
For the very same reason your neighbor can't come inside your house and tell you how to shag your spouse, raise your kids, feed your pets or park your car.

Ah, but that's what many Americans would like to do. Especially the "how to shag your spouse" bit.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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AR385
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:54 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
So, my wonderment is, why cant the US government pressure Mexico to reform it's system so that when punks like this are caught committing multiple homicides, plus abductions and other crimes, they can look forward to spending the rest of their natural lives behind bars where they belong. If enough of these Jr hitmen are sent to prison for the rest of their lives....no chance to get out...ever, it might make other kids stop and think about going to work for the cartels. Sure, the money is glamorous, but we need to instill a sense of fear in these kids that tells them that the 3000 dollars they make from the cartel won't do them any good in prison.

1. Last week a friend of mine, a good police officer, was killed by a drug gang member on a shoot out. He had taken his bullet vest off for a few mins. as he was too hot.

2. Yesterday, as I dropped off another friend at MTY´s airport mid afternoon I was almost run off the road by a convoy of heavily armed soldiers rushing to board an Apache or Black Hack helicopter (I´m not an expert on helos) as reinforcements rushing to a battle between soldiers and Drug cartel members taking place in the Laredo highway that resulted in 5 hitmen killed.

3. I have not been able to visit my father´s gravesite for two years because getting on the highways to Tamaulipas State out of Monterrey is just too risky.

4. Every night my brother comes home from the bar he owns and manages I can´t fall asleep until I hear him arrive safely, and you have no idea how my heart races if he is not home and the phone rings at some late hour?

And you have the gall, you dare, criticize our justice system when the real reason for all the death, fear and destruction this stupid drug war has caused in the last four years is the insatiable drug demand of American citizens and their failure of your institutions to control the smuggling of guns from your country into Mexico? Fix your own problems first, then start giving advice to other nations. And please, do read about the concept of "Sovereignity"

Have you even given some thought to the fact that that the reason the Cartels are using young teens to kill is because the war is actually being won, and the Cartels are running out of professional, well trained hit men?

Have you forgotten about that fiasco that was "Operation Fast and Furious" which has actually cost a few dead among American agents? It would be interesting to get to know the cowboy at the ATF bureau that came up with that brilliant idea.

But the problem won´t go away, you see, because nothing is being done in the US to curb drug consumption or gun smuggling. Drug consumption is actually glorified in many movies and TV shows. I understand free speech. So I won´t say anything about what I think about free speech in your country, you are a sovereign nation, after all, but the fact that shows like "Breaking Bad" exist and are so popular makes no sense to me. Shows like "Two and a half men" that draw laughter time and again every time the fat kid and his friend score and get high with pot, frankly surprise me. It´s all fun and games until someone gets hurt, and guess what, both the US and Mexico are hurting.

The problem is just moving South of our border. Good luck to Guatemala and El Salvador because the cartels are setting up shop there.

Next time you write such a near sighted post, do some research about what you are writing and keep in mind what EddieDude says in his most clear and illustrating post.

Besides, you know what? I´d much rather have 13-14 year olds go to Juve for 3 or 4 years no matter their crimes (unless it´s proven they´re mentally insane, in which case they will end up institutionalized after they reach 18) than have a barbaric law that allows those kids to be tried as adults and be locked up for the rest of their lives. And from what I´ve read, in other sources, it´s not clear he´s getting out becauase at 18 he´s going to be extradited to the US.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 7):
So what. The Norway shooter will be free in 21 years. And he was fully cognizant of what he was doing. Their country, their rules.

I actually read today that they might add "crimes against humanity" to the charges so he might get 30.

[Edited 2011-07-26 22:00:09]

[Edited 2011-07-26 22:02:42]
 
something
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:33 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):

I'm sorry to hear all that AR385. I lived some time in Puebla and though crime stricken, the region is not really affected by the drug wars. Neither is Veracruz, where I used to spend time at the beaches (love it there, btw). So it would be painting with too broad a brush to just say ''Mexico= drug wars''. They are concentrated around the Mexican-US border for ''logistical'' reasons, obviously.

Mexico is a poor country and people have to understand that. Getting an education and getting a decent job is just not really in the cards for some people and as long as there's money to be made with drugs, prostitution, violence and other entry-requirement free branches, that's where these people'll go.

We as a people need to act pro- and not reactive. We can't wait until something happens and then be all surprised that it did. Venezuela used to be a rather decent place and look what's become of it. And as you rightly point out, that violence and filth is now spreading to Guatemala and El Savador. But instead of just standing by and watching, why doesn't the world police USA intervene there? Why don't they support these economies, these schools and universities and increase the standard of living there that a career in the drug-business doesn't even present an alternative to the people anymore?

There's probably no money to be made with education and support. And I am pretty certain that the CIA does have their hands in this. They used to let Pablo Escobar's planes fly into the US and in return for that little negligence kept the airplanes. They pressured Jamaica to outlaw marijuana, so they could control the Jamaican marjuana export and make their cut with it. You can't tell me all these guns and ammunition, all these drugs etc. find their way into the USA without there being a leak in the system? We need more Wikileaks..

Unfortunately, I don't see a short term solution to this problem. Too many things need to be changed. Keeping children in jail longer isn't one of them though.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
jcs17
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:47 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):

Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace. Quoted from Mexico's first indigenous President in the second half of the XIXth century. But it seems some Americans have the absurd notion that their government's role is to push other countries to model their laws and systems in a manner that is convenient to the interests of the U.S.A. or that conforms to the beliefs of Americans.

Ugh, right. Mexico has such a lack of corruption and should be a model to us in terms of government. Mexicans risk their life traveling through deserts to make it to Los Estados Unidos because Mexico has unlimited opportunities.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
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HELyes
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:34 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
I have to admit I'm sitting here feeling sick, disgusted and not a little bit outraged.


Well this BBC news won't make you feel any better then...

News video: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7870845.stm

"Finland has only three young offenders behind bars because it believes in education for youths that commit crimes, rather than punishment. Alternatively Britain has more than 3,000 under 18-year-olds in custody."

[Edited 2011-07-27 04:59:41]
 
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par13del
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:02 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
A 14 year old is not an adult, how does it benefit anyone to put a 14 year old in prison for the rest of his life.
Quoting something (Reply 3):
You think a person who is capable of committing such atrocities is impressed by a jail sentence? The price of life is cheap in Mexico. That goes for the life of the victims as much as for the lives of the drug lords.
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):
I personally find it very questionable from a human rights' perspective that minors can be tried and sentenced as adults.

So the other side of the coin, what exactly should be done, these kids do the same thing with guns that adults do, the effects are the same, the victims are the same, but the offender is different.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):
Yes, parents in the first place and the education system in the second place can do something about this: it is called prevention through education

How do you retrocatively be a parent to this kid, if you cannot then you are looking at two seperate issues, one to address the lost generation and the other to prevent the loss of an additional generation, attempting to do two in one is probably where the problem lies.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
Minors have not yet developed the same intellectual maturity to understand the consequences, severity and ramifications of their actions. Same principle as pleading insanity. Or why a premeditated murder entails a different sentence than involuntary manslaughter.

What matters is what went on in your head when you did it and the circumstances under which it happened. The crime itself is secondary.

Obviously the issue resides with society, all the items listed mean nothing to the offender.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
Why waste a life when he could be reformed?

Based on the high rate of repeat offenders this is not really happening. Let me clarify, in my opinion this is not like religion, if 10 are released and one goes good the angels rejoice, the civilian authorities are about the majority not the success of the one.

Quoting something (Reply 11):
Mexico is a poor country and people have to understand that.

Quite likely the heart of the issue, Mexico is a wealthy country like a number of countries in South and Central America, unfortunately, the dispersion of wealth and its attainment is not something anyone has been able to achieve, even Venezuela with all its oil wealth has a population that is struggling.

A larger question would be how Europe handles its drug problems, there are drug trades on either side of the Atlantic, Europe's main suppliers are not Mexico or the Caribbean, so how do they deal with their issues, perhaps a lesson can be learned?
 
baroque
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:28 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):
But it seems some Americans have the absurd notion that their government's role is to push other countries to model their laws and systems in a manner that is convenient to the interests of the U.S.A. or that conforms to the beliefs of Americans.

Part of a great post ED. I guess some Mexicans might say pity countries cannot chose their neighbours. Wonder where all this pressure to sell drugs come from for Mexico?    If the physicians could heal themselves (no not a comment about Doc L, but the rather broader philosophical sigh!).
 
captaink
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:28 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 7):

So what. The Norway shooter will be free in 21 years. And he was fully cognizant of what he was doing. Their country, their rules.

But no one seems to want to question Norwegian laws, it is all about the black sheep Mexico for some Americans (especially the ones who have NO IDEA what´s happening south of their border).

Signed,
A non-Mexican living in Mexico..
There is something special about planes....
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:09 pm

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
So, my wonderment is, why cant the US government pressure Mexico to reform it's system so that when punks like this are caught committing multiple homicides, plus abductions and other crimes, they can look forward to spending the rest of their natural lives behind bars where they belong.

IF anything it should be Mexico pressuring the US government to do something about consumption, not the other way around.

Millions of Americans are having fun getting high on whatever it is they like to get high with at the expense of thousands of lives south of the border, and I mean EVERYWHERE south of the border, not just Mexico.

Besides, the US legal system is arguably even more f'ed up. A mom that clearly murdered her child is set free yet some parents that had a few naked pics of their baby child taken at the beach get thrown in jail on charges for child pornography. Seriously? I don't know of ANY parent that does not have at least one picture of their naked babies.   

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
All I know for sure is that something's got to be done.

Legalize drugs. You kill the demand, you kill the production.

People that think otherwise should refer to the history of the Prohibition Era and study gang activity/violence/deaths before and after said time.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):
an Apache

No Apaches in Mexico, only a handful of Black Hawks, which only the Mexican special forces use, but I think you probably saw a Huey, of which Mexico has tons of them.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):

Have you even given some thought to the fact that that the reason the Cartels are using young teens to kill is because the war is actually being won, and the Cartels are running out of professional, well trained hit men?

Precisely. The Nazis did the exact same thing during the end of WW2, they were sending up barely teenaged Nazi youths on Messerschmidts, granted they were little more than canon fodder.

Quoting captaink (Reply 16):

(especially the ones who have NO IDEA what´s happening south of their border).

Signed,
A non-Mexican living in Mexico..

Which is 90% of the US population.   

This non-Mexican that lived in Mexico for 20 years agrees wholeheartedly.
 
AR385
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:20 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 17):
No Apaches in Mexico, only a handful of Black Hawks, which only the Mexican special forces use, but I think you probably saw a Huey, of which Mexico has tons of them.

This is the Helicopter that the soldiers boarded and took off, right over my head:


 
Fly2HMO
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:44 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 18):
This is the Helicopter that the soldiers boarded and took off, right over my head:

Ah so you did indeed see a Black Hawk. Lucky you, they are rare.
 
StarAC17
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:21 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
So, my wonderment is, why cant the US government pressure Mexico to reform it's system

Can Canada pressure the US to change their pot laws most people think those are pretty retarded. The US would not tolerate another country pressuring them the same way like this so suck it up, different country different laws.

Quoting captaink (Reply 16):
But no one seems to want to question Norwegian laws, it is all about the black sheep Mexico for some Americans (especially the ones who have NO IDEA what´s happening south of their border).

The issue really isn't the law in Norway as much as the want for this one extremely rare tragic incident to be treated differently than a simple murder
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EddieDude
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:02 am

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 12):
Mexico has such a lack of corruption and should be a model to us in terms of government. Mexicans risk their life traveling through deserts to make it to Los Estados Unidos because Mexico has unlimited opportunities.

I am sorry, but I fail to see where I or anyone else has suggested that the Mexican government is a model that the U.S. government should follow. More importantly, I fail to see how your irony contributes to this discussion.

If you disagree with the "Among individuals, as among nations..." statement, well, then basically you disagree with a principle of international public law, and you are absolutely entitled to do that. Not much I can do about that.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 15):
I guess some Mexicans might say pity countries cannot chose their neighbours.

Actually, the saying goes "Poor Mexico, so close to the United States and so far from God". Disclaimer: Before I get attacked, I did not make this up and I don't go down life saying this every time; it is just what people say in Mexico about our relationship with the U.S.
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something
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:07 am

I read in the paper today that some fraudulent car dealer was sentenced to 9280 years in prison and a $230 000. Don't know if I got the numbers straight but it was somewhere in that neighborhood. A fool who says Mexico lacks ''drastic punishments'' lol
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eaa3
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:24 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
he'd be charged as an adult and if convicted would spend the rest of his life in prison.

Life imprisonment for minors is often considered a human rights violation.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 7):
So what. The Norway shooter will be free in 21 years. And he was fully cognizant of what he was doing. Their country, their rules.

His sentence will be extended 5 years at a time once the 21 years are up and could conceivably be extended for life. But the US legal system is nonetheless overly harsh.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):
2. Yesterday, as I dropped off another friend at MTY´s airport mid afternoon I was almost run off the road by a convoy of heavily armed soldiers rushing to board an Apache or Black Hack helicopter (I´m not an expert on helos) as reinforcements rushing to a battle between soldiers and Drug cartel members taking place in the Laredo highway that resulted in 5 hitmen killed.

Mexico is facing a huge problem. This thread kind of suggests that Mexico is not being tough enough on crime. I would however contend that they are being immensely tough on crime. They have deployed the army all over Mexico to fight the violence. However the problem is huge and also the corruption is huge. But they are extremely serious about fighting crime.
 
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par13del
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:34 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 20):
Can Canada pressure the US to change their pot laws most people think those are pretty retarded.

Well they are working on the death penalty laws so why not try for pot? Imagine if Canada's conditions for returning pot smokers to the US was a maximum of 3 months sentence or no extradition?

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 23):
However the problem is huge and also the corruption is huge. But they are extremely serious about fighting crime.

A good historical question would be how did the problem get so large that the Army has to be deployed because the police cannot cope, was it ignored because everyone thought it was someone else's problem? Police forces are not infiltrated and undermined overnight, nor local politicians.
 
EddieDude
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:29 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 24):
was it ignored because everyone thought it was someone else's problem?

It was a combination of things. It was indeed ignored because the cartels had sort of marked their territories and did not disturb each other (and much less the population), the police and some politicians would get hefty bribes every now and then so they'd pretend nothing was going on, the government would make some big busts or catches every once in a while to show people they were on top of things, domestic consumption was low and therefore not really a problem, the main international drug routes did not necessarily go through Mexico, etc. The party that was in power for 71 years uninterruptedly was happy with this arrangement and the first president from the former opposition did very little about drugs (he did actually very little period).

When Calderón took office, he lacked legitimacy due to his main opponent's questioning of the validity of the election's results, so one of the things he had to do was earn that legitimacy so he launched a full frontal battle against cartels. By then, domestic consumption in both the U.S. and Mexico was on the rise, the Colombian drug business was decimated so the Mexican cartels gained notoriety and power, there were signs that cartels had started to branch out further and interfere with each other, etc. It is a very complex issue. In my humble opinion, unless and until possession and consumption of certain drugs is legalized across the U.S. and the U.S. government finally stops the flow of guns into Mexico, this nightmare will continue.
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Marcus
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:59 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
Now here's the the sick, disgusting, outrageous and absurd part:

Here are a few sick, disgusting and outrageous for you....

Mentally ill man executed in the US...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3374831.stm

List of executed prisoners believed to be innocent..
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent

Racial disparity in crime sentencing...
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...cial-disparity-in-crack-sentencing

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/208129.pdf

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...w-level-drug-drug-crimes-drug-laws

Go clean up your own mess before you ignorantly point your finger at someone else.
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homeland545
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:00 am

AR385:
i kinda know what you go through, its sad and upsetting...im currently in culiacan and travel up and down sinaloa..i have to be carful driving, i can't drive to fast or drive a truck or SUV be cause they will steal it..i can't dress too nice..i hate to travel into the mountains to take care of some of my critically ill patients where normal doctors won't even go close too but i've been stopped by teenagers in the entrance of every city asking me what I'm doing, who do i work for, and other questions and since I'm american they ask if i work for the CIA (which i don't) and once inside the city heavily armed gunmen patrol and stop you to play around with you or won't move at the green light and after a few minutes gunmen will walk out and throw money at you and say "if you would have honked, we would have shot you hahaha" and then drive off..but under all the negative press and violence there are a lot of good people...on count less times i asked a person for directions or questions and they gladly help you...with my lower income patients they will make or buy me food to show thanks...then going back home i have to travel to reynosa which is also very dangerous

My belief is that it is not fair to judge the entire country be cause some people want fast and easy money..the same thing happens in the US..their might not be shootouts with military weapons or mass graves but there are killings on a daily bases..in every country people get kiddnap...when you go to any city you will find true mexicans who are kind and loving...if you don't know english they will try to help you...again this is what i think and what i see daily but everybody who lives and/or visits mexico might have a different outlook than me
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baroque
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:44 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 21):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 15):
I guess some Mexicans might say pity countries cannot chose their neighbours.

Actually, the saying goes "Poor Mexico, so close to the United States and so far from God". Disclaimer: Before I get attacked, I did not make this up and I don't go down life saying this every time; it is just what people say in Mexico about our relationship with the U.S.

Pay out on that. At least while you have a sense of humour, there must be hope!!

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 25):
In my humble opinion, unless and until possession and consumption of certain drugs is legalized across the U.S. and the U.S. government finally stops the flow of guns into Mexico, this nightmare will continue.

Amen, but at least quite a few on a.net from N of the border seem to agree with these suggestions. So you never know, hell might freeze over and .......
 
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par13del
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:40 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
Amen, but at least quite a few on a.net from N of the border seem to agree with these suggestions. So you never know, hell might freeze over and .......

Well there is another side to that coin, in the Bahamas we were usually just a transshipment point of drugs into the US, our government did not try too hard to prevent the traffic as long as we got "cuts" from the trade.
A number of young persons would drop out of school to facilitate the trade, making big bucks doing illegal activities which legal jobs could never match. One day the trade door got slammed shut and those folks are now in our society without proper education, our society has no legitamate jobs that they can obtain to maintain their past life style and standard of living, now what?

The situation inside Mexico and in the USA will be no different, if they legitamize the drugs, the cost will go down, the economic benefits which pulled persons away from the legal side of society will be gone and a major vaccum will be created, I have no doubt that some of the violence presently taking place is because they have been clamping down on the trade making it more difficult. Guns are a necessary tool of the trade and dispersed among the soldiers, if they have nothing to protect, those tools will be used for other things such as robberies and kidnappings which will be used to suppliment / replace lost income.
It's sad that economic terms are applied to such activity but its the way things are.
 
baroque
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:36 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 29):
Well there is another side to that coin, i

From what one reads, at the least the Mexicans would be grateful to be given the choice between those outcomes????
 
something
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:04 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuMMaEaCJtI&feature=player_embedded
http://bcove.me/y2bmfnpk

So much about the call for longer jail sentences, and punishment, and whatnot.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
goblin211
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:13 pm

To put it bluntly, there's a reason why tourists go to only certain parts of Mexico where all the tourism is and rarely if ever venture off into all the parts of the country.
From the airport with love
 
GBLKD
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:17 pm

Hmmmm, thread is running for over 3 days and the O.P. hasn't been back yet.
 
Marcus
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:08 pm

Quoting GBLKD (Reply 33):
To put it bluntly, there's a reason why tourists go to only certain parts of Mexico where all the tourism is and rarely if ever venture off into all the parts of the country.

That is true for virtually all countries I have been to....
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
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par13del
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:53 pm

Quoting Marcus (Reply 34):
That is true for virtually all countries I have been to....

Dates back many moons, previously tourism was about folks visiting countries to see how the locals live and experience a different culture. Today with millions being spent by private investors more guarantees are required so:
1. Create a seperate section in your country where the rule of law reigns
2. Place your tourist business in that section to make money
3. Use the money earned in the tourist sector to take care of the rest of the country.

The classic tale of two societies in one country, make the tourist safe thus obtaining fund for the rest of the nation, and if you bring in all inclusive resorts, you can even shrink the tourist footprint.
 
AR385
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:34 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 25):
(he did actually very little period).
Quoting par13del (Reply 35):
The classic tale of two societies in one country, make the tourist safe thus obtaining fund for the rest of the nation, and if you bring in all inclusive resorts, you can even shrink the tourist footprint.

Jamaica comes to mind...
 
Marcus
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:39 am

Quoting GBLKD (Reply 33):
Hmmmm, thread is running for over 3 days and the O.P. hasn't been back yet.

I guess he is somewhere licking his wounds.....
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NorthstarBoy
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:17 am

Those who are so quick to condemn me, do you really think it's okay that he's only going to jail for 3 years? keep in mind he killed 7 people. It doesnt matter that he was on drugs, if anything that makes it worse, and it doesn't matter that he may have been afraid for his life. The only thing that matters is the act itself. The act itself must be condemned and dealt with in the harshest possible terms.

Do you really think he's salvageable? that he deserves to have his life back when took the lives of at least seven other people? Also what kind of message does a sentence like this send to other mexican teenagers? that they can kill all the people they want as long as they're not 18 and they'll pretty much get away with it? Is that really the kind of message we want to send to a generation of kids oversaturated with violence, lured by the promise of easy money? Or do we want to send the message that one human life is worth more than all the money in the world? That human life is absolutely sacred and is never to be terminated without the color of authority? Personally, i'd rather send the latter message and if that means making an example out of a few kids to send the message to everyone, so be it.

Finally, when i read about corruption anywhere, you have know idea how much my stomach turns. I come from a culture where even a one cent bribe to a judge/politician/police officer will not only see me with my face in the concrete and my hands cuffed behind my back but the official who accepts the bribe will be out of a job and facing criminal charges. I really wish America's biggest import would be that kind of ethos, especially to the developing world, where corruption and bribery seem to be rampant. It starts with the officials refusing to accept the bribes, regardless how little money they make, their pride and integrity should prevent them from doing the bidding of the criminal element. It also starts with anyone attempting to bribe an official, even with one cent, ending up in jail. Finally, it starts with any officials accepting bribes losing their positions and being brought up on criminal charges.

Yes, I take a hard line, sometimes dictatorial stance on some issues. Sometimes if we want to make the world a better place we must make it clear what behavior is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Likewise we must make it clear when misbehavior happens what the acceptable punishment for that misbehavior is. Three years in prison for four murders, regardless of the age of the defendant or the circumstance under which the crimes were committed is not even in the realm of acceptability. For a modern, civilized nation that prides itself on being a nation of laws, i'd expect nothing less than 4 consecutive life terms.

Disagree all you want.
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AR385
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:39 pm

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 38):
Those who are so quick to condemn me, do you really think it's okay that he's only going to jail for 3 years? keep in mind he killed 7 people. It doesnt matter that he was on drugs, if anything that makes it worse, and it doesn't matter that he may have been afraid for his life. The only thing that matters is the act itself. The act itself must be condemned and dealt with in the harshest possible terms.

That is your opinion. As such I respect it. I disagree with it, but I respect it. I also think that if after all the responses that you have received on this thread you have the same opinion, reasoning with you is pointless.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 38):
Is that really the kind of message we want to send to a generation of kids oversaturated with violence, lured by the promise of easy money? Or do we want to send the message that one human life is worth more than all the money in the world? That human life is absolutely sacred and is never to be terminated without the color of authority? Personally, i'd rather send the latter message and if that means making an example out of a few kids to send the message to everyone, so be it.

Remember. Who is "We"? are you talking we humans in general or "We" US citizens? I remind you, you are talking about the laws of another country. As such, your opinion about the matter as a US citizen is worth a flying fig. Keep that in mind.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 38):
I really wish America's biggest import would be that kind of ethos, especially to the developing world, where corruption and bribery seem to be rampant. It starts with the officials refusing to accept the bribes, regardless how little money they make, their pride and integrity should prevent them from doing the bidding of the criminal element. It also starts with anyone attempting to bribe an official, even with one cent, ending up in jail. Finally, it starts with any officials accepting bribes losing their positions and being brought up on criminal charges.

You must live in a world surrounded by a bubble. Do you think the US has no corruption issues of its own? Either you are very ignorant of what goes on in your own country or you are so full of arrogance about it that you can´t see things in a clear light "I really wish America´s biggest import (and I believe you really wanted to use the word export here) would be that kind of ethos?" WTF? That ´s gotta be one of the most chauvinist things I´ve read on a.net ever, laughable even, if it not were for you being serious.

1.Please tell me how is it that once drugs cross the border into the US, those drugs appear in cities as far North as Portland, Detroit, Columbus, New York, Chicago, Cincinatti, Indianapolis, Washington, and I could go on. Do you think they are teletransported Star Trek style?

2. How is it that busts are constantly made at airports where they find rings of airport employees running pretty nifty drug transport ops. from Central America and the Caribbean? For every ring they bust once in a while I bet you there are 10 others that continue functioning, and do you actually believe nobody at ICE is aware of that. Don´t you think they get a cut?

3. How many congreesmen and senators in your country have had to renounce their seats in the last 20 years in the US for ethics violatios i.e CORRUPTION?

4. How is it that well know companies that Wal-Mart, Home Depot, and many more big companies like that employ and exploit illegals by locking them up at night to clean the store (among other tasks) as well as big farmers and food companies like Tyson and nobody does anything about it.

5. Are you aware of how many people, including American minors are pushed into the sex trade, practically as slaves with the complicitness of many employees at Children Services that receive cuts and kickbacks?

6. What about that blessed company Haliburton that should be declared an Institution involved in war crmes and time and again your government protects it and its board members who many of them could very well qualify as war criminals too.

7. You have obviously forgotten about Enron, Arthur Andersen, MCI World Com, Global Crossing, the S&L scandal, the Iran-Contra affair, Watergate.

8. How is it that operation Fast and Furious failed so miserably? Do you think it was incompetence? Oh well, considering what happened at Waco and Ruby Ridge, it might well have been that, my bad. But I think it was more like it than people, Americans, on the inside passed a lot of info to the Mexican Cartels.

9. Do you know there is a law in the US called the "American Foreign Corrupt Practices Act?" It sounds misleading, because it would seem like it is designed to punish American companies engaging in corruption abroad. But do some research. It is actually a blue print that very clearly delineates to American private companies how to engage in corruption abroad without facing consequences back home.

10. Wasn´t there recently a scandal in New York, two or three years ago where the Governor had to quit for using public money to pay hookers at $4,000 and hour, repeatedly. Granted, the girl was hot, but that´s not behavior becoming of the "ethos you want to export" is it?

Is that the "American Ethos" you want the US to export to other countries? Sorry, man, but that idea just doesn´t fly with me. The absurdity of it is comical, frankly.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 38):
Likewise we must make it clear when misbehavior happens what the acceptable punishment for that misbehavior is. Three years in prison for four murders, regardless of the age of the defendant or the circumstance under which the crimes were committed is not even in the realm of acceptability. For a modern, civilized nation that prides itself on being a nation of laws, i'd expect nothing less than 4 consecutive life terms.

Too bad, "We" does not apply in other countries with different laws. And about what you "expect", don´t bother holding your breath.

[Edited 2011-08-01 12:46:28]
 
EddieDude
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:38 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 38):
I really wish America's biggest import would be that kind of ethos, especially to the developing world, where corruption and bribery seem to be rampant.

Wow! Spoken without any hesitation as if the U.S. was corruption free! Come on! Corruption exists in most places, and the U.S. is one of them. There are lots of documented cases of corruption in the U.S., and if there aren't more it is because the politicians, judges or government officials have not yet been caught. I will not elaborate on AR385's comments, but I will ask the same question once more. Do you really think drug trafficking and consumption in the U.S. would have reached its current levels without corrupt policemen and feds? Do you really think illegal guns used by U.S. armed and police forces would find their way to the Mexican border without corrupt U.S. military and policemen? Seriously. Leave Boulder for a change some time and see what the U.S. is really like.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 38):
For a modern, civilized nation that prides itself on being a nation of laws, i'd expect nothing less than 4 consecutive life terms.

The countries that have had the most success in dealing with criminality are those that have chosen to implement policies that tend to reinsert felons and criminals back into society by using imprisonment as a means of treating and re-educating the offenders, as opposed to those countries that have simply elected to increase the severity of the punishments and that view a sentence merely as that, a punishment, rather than an opportunity to treat the offender.
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mham001
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:59 am

Quoting Marcus (Reply 34):
That is true for virtually all countries I have been to....

Most or all countries I have been to were the other way around. There were some small pockets that were better left unvisited but the vast majority of spaces were safe. Just like it is in the US.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 39):

2. How is it that busts are constantly made at airports where they find rings of airport employees running pretty nifty drug transport ops. from Central America and the Caribbean? For every ring they bust once in a while I bet you there are 10 others that continue functioning, and do you actually believe nobody at ICE is aware of that. Don´t you think they get a cut?

ICE is in charge of policing airports now? I must be behind the times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 39):
4. How is it that well know companies that Wal-Mart, Home Depot, and many more big companies like that employ and exploit illegals by locking them up at night to clean the store

You've been reading too much bad media. May have happened to Walmart cleaning crews (actually Walmart subcontractors) but locking the doors at night is not "exploitation". And then when we do crack down on the illegals, Mexico criticizes us and starts talking about human rights.....try to tighten the employment rules and they do the same thing. No win there.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 39):
5. Are you aware of how many people, including American minors are pushed into the sex trade, practically as slaves with the complicitness of many employees at Children Services that receive cuts and kickbacks?

No, I for one am not aware. Sources please. What Children Services? Which employees?

Quoting AR385 (Reply 39):
What about that blessed company Haliburton that should be declared an Institution involved in war crmes and time and again your government protects it and its board members who many of them could very well qualify as war criminals too.

Really. War crimes where? Which board members? Sources?

Quoting AR385 (Reply 39):

9. Do you know there is a law in the US called the "American Foreign Corrupt Practices Act?" It sounds misleading, because it would seem like it is designed to punish American companies engaging in corruption abroad. But do some research. It is actually a blue print that very clearly delineates to American private companies how to engage in corruption abroad without facing consequences back home.

Exactly what corruption does it allow?
 
AR385
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RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:24 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 41):
No, I for one am not aware. Sources please. What Children Services? Which employees?
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2009/N...hild-Prostitution-in-US-Expanding/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-w...ren-of-the-night-chi_b_115348.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29346132...escue-child-prostitutes-around-us/
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/trafficking_children

Many of the children cited above in the sources I am posting for your benefit, are children that have been assigned to foster homes throught child services.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 41):
Really. War crimes where? Which board members? Sources?
http://www.examiner.com/democrat-in-...ral-halliburton-personnel-arrested
http://bossip.com/316983/nigeria-vs-...iled-against-ws-puppetmaster12006/
http://mypeace.tv/video/troops-are-u...set-halliburton?xg_source=activity

Quoting mham001 (Reply 41):
ICE is in charge of policing airports now? I must be behind the times.

Are you denying what I wrote? Or are you questioning my knowledge of which agency polices the airports? On the second part, you are right, it may be the job of the local police or the DEA, in any case, the fact that I confused departments does not change one iota of what I wrote. The next time I´ll write Homeland Security, just to be sure. Aren´t the DEA, ICE, the ATF and all those, subsidiaries of that organization? I could be wrong.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 41):
You've been reading too much bad media. May have happened to Walmart cleaning crews (actually Walmart subcontractors) but locking the doors at night is not "exploitation". And then when we do crack down on the illegals, Mexico criticizes us and starts talking about human rights.....try to tighten the employment rules and they do the same thing. No win there.

Mmmmh. Locking the doors at night is not exploitation? You are right. It´s slavery. And no, I do not read bad media. This was featured in various "serious" media. And I do not recall Mexico criticizing the US for cracking down on illegals. It´s your laws, you are a sovereign nation. What you should do, is crack down on the companies that hire the ilegals, AND THEN LOCK THEIR MANAGEMENT AND OWNERS UP.

The fact that Mexico defends the human rights of its citizens in another country, wether legal or illegal is a Constitutional obligation. Would you expect otherwise? Would it be right if they were just ignored? Are you saying only the human rights of Americans are to be respected? Are you saying illegals have no human rights? I thought they were Universal...

Quoting mham001 (Reply 41):
Exactly what corruption does it allow?

I will give you one example, and then you can look it up for yourself.

It tells that bribes are ok as long as they are used to speed up a process, particularly a bureacratic process, let´s say the assignation of a public tender, as long as the result of the tender is just being slowed down due to red tape. However, it does not allow the same bribe if it means it is given to get the public tender.

Absurd in my opinion, but there you go.
 
mham001
Posts: 4287
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:58 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 42):
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2009/N...hild-Prostitution-in-US-Expanding/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-w...ren-of-the-night-chi_b_115348.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29346132...escue-child-prostitutes-around-us/
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/trafficking_children

Many of the children cited above in the sources I am posting for your benefit, are children that have been assigned to foster homes throught child services.

I don't see anything there about complicity with public officials. Yes, child prostitution exists, you claimed without source

Quoting AR385 (Reply 39):
many people, including American minors are pushed into the sex trade, practically as slaves with the complicitness of many employees at Children Services that receive cuts and kickbacks?

You have still not provided a source and I have to assume it is just the rantings of a very misinformed person.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 42):
http://www.examiner.com/democrat-in-...ral-halliburton-personnel-arrested
http://bossip.com/316983/nigeria-vs-...iled-against-ws-puppetmaster12006/
http://mypeace.tv/video/troops-are-u...ivity

The Nigerian bribery thing is well known but I see nothing there about "war crimes". Another baseless claim.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 42):
Are you denying what I wrote? Or are you questioning my knowledge of which agency polices the airports? On the second part, you are right, it may be the job of the local police or the DEA, in any case, the fact that I confused departments does not change one iota of what I wrote. The next time I´ll write Homeland Security, just to be sure. Aren´t the DEA, ICE, the ATF and all those, subsidiaries of that organization? I could be wrong.

It's not up to me to prove a negative. You made the claim of widespread corruption among the TSA. You have no source for that claim. Another baseless claim. The fact that you don't even know which agency you are claiming corrupt only proves that.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 42):
Mmmmh. Locking the doors at night is not exploitation? You are right. It´s slavery. And no, I do not read bad media. This was featured in various "serious" media. And I do not recall Mexico criticizing the US for cracking down on illegals. It´s your laws, you are a sovereign nation. What you should do, is crack down on the companies that hire the ilegals, AND THEN LOCK THEIR MANAGEMENT AND OWNERS UP.

No, it's not slavery, it's basic security. I used to work in mall stores at night 25 years ago. We were *always* locked in and never once thought ourselves "slaves". Perhaps that is a mindset.

As for Mexican criticism, you might try a simple google search such as 'mexican criticizes us immigration'.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 42):

I will give you one example, and then you can look it up for yourself.

It tells that bribes are ok as long as they are used to speed up a process, particularly a bureacratic process, let´s say the assignation of a public tender, as long as the result of the tender is just being slowed down due to red tape. However, it does not allow the same bribe if it means it is given to get the public tender.

Absurd in my opinion, but there you go.

Yes, and? Every time I ride a motorcycle across a Central American border, I can pay a 'facilitator' to speed up the process. Same in the Philippines when I want a visa extension. Pay more money, get faster service. Apparently it is legal, it is certainly rampant. Maybe the problem is really the problem of the host country????

The one exception is if the payment to a foreign official is to expedite or secure the performance of a routine governmental action. The so-called “facilitating” payment or “grease” payment exception has limited application, and generally only applies to non-discretionary actions by a foreign official such as processing government paperwork, providing routine government services (i.e., police protection, mail pick-up) and actions of a similar nature. Routine governmental action does not include a decision by a foreign official to award business to, or to continue business with, a company. http://www.fcpaenforcement.com/explained/explained.asp

Claiming that rule "absurd" (also signed by 33 other countries) is laughable coming from a country where it is routine to be shook down by the police for whatever you can afford, money that goes directly in their pocket. It has happened to me several times.

There is no doubt corruption happens in the US,( you failed to note that occasionally a Border Patrol agent is caught letting illegals pass) but your wild claims are largely baseless and misinformed.
 
AR385
Posts: 6742
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:49 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 43):
I don't see anything there about complicity with public officials. Yes, child prostitution exists, you claimed without source
http://www.turtlebayandbeyond.org/20...th-prostitution-starts-with-obama/

http://www.northstarinitiative.org/thelawoftheland.htm

Excerpts:

"In addition, these children often come from unstable home lives, shelters, or child services, which causes them to run from non-secure shelters and either return to their 'trauma-bond' relationship or become vulnerable to another recruiter. "

"There are very few cases reported to law enforcement by social services and community groups for fear that the child would be arrested or unjustly punished. In addition, child protection staff are often reluctant to categorize familial involvement in the prostitution of the child as trafficking; the situation is instead labeled as sexual abuse or child neglect.*"

Quoting mham001 (Reply 43):
You have still not provided a source and I have to assume it is just the rantings of a very misinformed person.

I will concede that beyond the above, I have not been able to provide the sources you are in your right to demand. I have personal anecdotes, having dated a Child Services employee in Houston a couple of years back. But those have no value, I suppose and won´t bother posting them. The fact, however, that I was not able to provide sources, does not mean it the problem as I described it does not exist. For the purposes of this discussion, however, I´m willing to take that point back. But don´t assume they are "the rantings of a very misinformed person". That is a personal attack and I have kept away from those all the time throughout this thread.

The point I made about Halliburtona¡ and certain offficials like Cheney I preferr to drop. Not due to lack of sources, but I do not want to start a debate that is too far away from this thread. It´s a place I don´t want to go. So I will concede to you that I made "baseless" claims.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 43):
It's not up to me to prove a negative. You made the claim of widespread corruption among the TSA. You have no source for that claim. Another baseless claim. The fact that you don't even know which agency you are claiming corrupt only proves that.

I did not make a claim of widespread corrumption among TSA. I mentioned that every one or two years there is a drug trafficking rink in an a major US airport that is broken up. In each some hey have found collusion in some for of another with authoritites. Statistically speaking I believe that for every drug ring busted, many more exist. And many more authorities are involved.

http://wbjb.org/home.php/2011/07/29/newark-airport-drug-ring/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rt-staff-held-drug-ring-probe.html

Excerpt:

"A senior law enforcement official said corrupt airport staff could easily have been collaborating with terrorists.
The baggage handlers were said to be acting "virtually with impunity" at what is one of the biggest ports of entry into the United States."

http://eastatlanta.patch.com/article...rnational-airport-leads-to-arrests

Excerpt:

"A multi-agency investigation into alleged drug trafficking led to the arrests of 14 metro Atlanta residents, including a U.S. Customs and Border Protection agent, who is charged with taking bribes to smuggle guns and drug money through Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport, federal authorities said Thursday."

http://articles.cnn.com/1999-08-25/u...federal-drug-fake-cocaine?_s=PM:US

Excerpt:

"In addition, two inspectors one from the Immigration and Naturalization Service and one from the Department of Agriculture as well as a Broward County Florida Sheriffs officer who worked part time as a baggage handler also face charges, sources said."

Quoting mham001 (Reply 43):
No, it's not slavery, it's basic security. I used to work in mall stores at night 25 years ago. We were *always* locked in and never once thought ourselves "slaves". Perhaps that is a mindset.

I believe we have a problem of perception here. You may call it "security" because you are not paid under the table, you do not have to give 50% of what you made that day or week to your "handler" which is the other legal or illegal that found you the job, you can complain, you have a cell and after all leave anytime you want. You do not have to work seven day a week and you do get paid overtime, don´t you? The illegals in this case, can´t very well do that or get what you get.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150846,00.html#ixzz1TtSKWEW5

Excerpt:

"In two separate investigations, authorities uncovered the cases of an estimated 345 illegal immigrants contracted as janitors at Wal-Mart stores. Many of the workers worked seven days or nights a week without overtime pay or injury compensation, attorneys said. Those who worked nights were often locked in the store until the morning."

Quoting mham001 (Reply 43):
Yes, and? Every time I ride a motorcycle across a Central American border, I can pay a 'facilitator' to speed up the process. Same in the Philippines when I want a visa extension. Pay more money, get faster service. Apparently it is legal, it is certainly rampant. Maybe the problem is really the problem of the host country????

I do not know if it legal or not in Central America or in the Phillipines. If it is legal, fine, if it is not, you are being as corrupt as the person asking for the money to "facilitate" your passing. Corruption is a two way street. The one who demands the bribe, and the one who gives it. The problem maybe the host´s country, but it becomes your problem when you participate on it. And the FCPA, allows that.

Besides, the OP is talking about Mexico. In Mexico, it is illegal. Since many years ago, in my country, I never give a bribe for whichever reason. That has cost me, but at least my conscience is clean.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 43):
The one exception is if the payment to a foreign official is to expedite or secure the performance of a routine governmental action. The so-called “facilitating” payment or “grease” payment exception has limited application, and generally only applies to non-discretionary actions by a foreign official such as processing government paperwork, providing routine government services (i.e., police protection, mail pick-up) and actions of a similar nature. Routine governmental action does not include a decision by a foreign official to award business to, or to continue business with, a company. http://www.fcpaenforcement.com/expla...d.asp

Yes. Very nice way of writing down corrupt behaviour allowable by American law.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 43):
Claiming that rule "absurd" (also signed by 33 other countries) is laughable coming from a country where it is routine to be shook down by the police for whatever you can afford, money that goes directly in their pocket. It has happened to me several times.

Your point above is irrelevant, because I have never debated what happens in Mexico in terms of corruption, although things are changing. My objective with my responses was to point out to the OP that there are things going on in his country that are the same as what goes on down here.

You may wish to start a new thread about what goes on in Mexico.
 
Marcus
Posts: 1666
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 5:08 am

RE: The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice

Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:26 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 41):
Most or all countries I have been to were the other way around. There were some small pockets that were better left unvisited but the vast majority of spaces were safe. Just like it is in the US.

Survey said! {{BUZZER}}....you did not understand.

I was responding to the fact that regardless of what country you are in, tourists seem to go to the same places and not really venture out of the "touristy" areas.

Tourists in downtown Paris but not in the city suburbs
Tourists in San Francisco but none in Oakland

etc etc
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